Unpopular Beach Boys opinions

[KDS]

I don't make a huge distinction between, say, the early 70s vocal blend and the late 60s. The music itself was more different than their vocal blend was. I'll put ""Til I Die" purely as a group vocal performance up against anything from the 60s.

The vocals-only mixes around of both "'Til I Die" and "Surf's Up" are revelatory and as enthralling as any 60s vocal performance.

Weren't the vocals of Surf's Up recorded in 1967, or was the vocal tag done during the 1971 album sessions? 

[HeyJude]

I don't make a huge distinction between, say, the early 70s vocal blend and the late 60s. The music itself was more different than their vocal blend was. I'll put ""Til I Die" purely as a group vocal performance up against anything from the 60s.

The vocals-only mixes around of both "'Til I Die" and "Surf's Up" are revelatory and as enthralling as any 60s vocal performance.

Weren't the vocals of Surf's Up recorded in 1967, or was the vocal tag done during the 1971 album sessions?  

All the vocal tag stuff (the main "group" part) was recorded in 1971 (or 1970, at whatever point during the "Surf's Up" album sessions). Also of course, Carl's lead (and backing) during the first "movement" was also recorded at that later date.

[KDS]

I don't make a huge distinction between, say, the early 70s vocal blend and the late 60s. The music itself was more different than their vocal blend was. I'll put ""Til I Die" purely as a group vocal performance up against anything from the 60s.

The vocals-only mixes around of both "'Til I Die" and "Surf's Up" are revelatory and as enthralling as any 60s vocal performance.

Weren't the vocals of Surf's Up recorded in 1967, or was the vocal tag done during the 1971 album sessions?  

All the vocal tag stuff (the main "group" part) was recorded in 1971 (or 1970, at whatever point during the "Surf's Up" album sessions). Also of course, Carl's lead (and backing) during the first "movement" was also recorded at that later date.

OK, thanks, I couldn't recall.  I think that was mentioned in Peter Carlin's Catch a Wave book. 

[phirnis]

Blend-wise I think that Smiley Smile, the Friends album, I Can Hear Music/TTGA off 20/20, 'Til I Die, All This Is That, and the Holland album were their post-1966 peaks. Good Timin' is pretty spectacular too. Out of these I think Holland is a pretty interesting case because to me it sounds like Carl might've made a conscious decision to use group vocals in a different way than before. IIRC someone in the CATP/Holland liner notes wrote that the group vocals became more 'ambient' around that time and I totally agree with that. They did some gorgeous stuff on that album, just listen to the bg vocals during the second half of Big Sur.

[mabewa]

I'm not sure if this is actually an unpopular opinion or not, but I think that Brian's lead vocal on Surf's Up kills Carl's lead vocal. 

[RangeRoverA1]

I'm not sure if this is actually an unpopular opinion or not, but I think that Brian's lead vocal on Surf's Up kills Carl's lead vocal. 

Affirmative. I find Brian's voice in general better than Carl's.

[KDS]

I'm not sure if this is actually an unpopular opinion or not, but I think that Brian's lead vocal on Surf's Up kills Carl's lead vocal. 

From my few years on BB boards, this seems to be pretty even.

I love them both, but I think I slightly prefer the version with Carl. 

[RangeRoverA1]

Yes, I was going to say it's 50/50. Many posters/Smile mixers prefer Brian's vocal.

[phirnis]

I like the 1971 album version best, it just sounds the most finished and there's something magical about Carl doing the first verses and then Brian's voice coming in in the 'Dove-nested towers' section.

[HeyJude]

I think Brian's and Carl's vocals on "Surf's Up" are pretty evenly impressive. I tend to like the "Carl version" more because of the more spot-on editing and production. The cobbled "finished Brian version" always sounds a bit off, they can never exactly match the timing on editing Brian's voice on there

I also much prefer the bass notes near the end of "Surf's Up" (done on a Moog?) under the "I heard the word, wonderful thing", the song needs those bass notes for a fuller impact. That's why I always still listen to the '71 version of the song. I kind of wish they had added those notes to the "Smile Sessions" version, since they were already flying in a bunch of '71 stuff into it already.

If they grafted Brian's lead onto the first movement of the '71 version but kept everything else *exactly* the same, I'd like both versions pretty equally.

[KDS]

I think Brian's and Carl's vocals on "Surf's Up" are pretty evenly impressive. I tend to like the "Carl version" more because of the more spot-on editing and production. The cobbled "finished Brian version" always sounds a bit off, they can never exactly match the timing on editing Brian's voice on there

I also much prefer the bass notes near the end of "Surf's Up" (done on a Moog?) under the "I heard the word, wonderful thing", the song needs those bass notes for a fuller impact. That's why I always still listen to the '71 version of the song. I kind of wish they had added those notes to the "Smile Sessions" version, since they were already flying in a bunch of '71 stuff into it already.

If they grafted Brian's lead onto the first movement of the '71 version but kept everything else *exactly* the same, I'd like both versions pretty equally.

That version might appear on the 60th Anniversary Boxset - Beach Boys 1962-2022 - Easy Money, Ain't Life Funny. 

I think another reason I really like the '71 version is the placement on the Surf's Up album.  I love it as part of the Song for Children / Child is the Father suite on Smile, but following Til I Die, that's really special. 

[barto]

I'll agree the BB vocal blend was never as good as it was in the 1960s.  But, I think they came close to it a few times on the Surf's Up album in particular (ie.  Til I Die and the tag on Don't Go Near the Water).

I think the BBs had capability of doing great group vocals even way later into their career. It took on somewhat of a different tone and timbre, having more to do with simple aging than anything else.

They were all between 17 and 22 or so in 1963, so even later 60s stuff and certainly early 70s stuff would exhibit a different sort of vocal blend.

But their actual group vocal ability was still fully intact. I think it still shines on later era stuff like "Endless Harmony." I'd put the vocals on "Surf's Up" and "'Til I Die" up against anything they ever did. I think they took on a great vocal blend; I never needed that teen rasp from Dennis in the vocal blend on everything for decades. It sounded vibrant and was a key to the early era sound, but 1963 Dennis wouldn't have sounded the same on some of those key group vocals on the coda to "Surf's Up" for instance.

Starting especially in the 80s, and even on some later 70s stuff like "Good Timin'", I think they processed the vocals too much. I'd love to hear a 100% dry vocals-only mix of "Good Timin'."

I'm not saying they didn't have great vocal blends in the later years.  Even as late as TWGMTR.  But, to my ears, you can't beat the 60s blend. 

I would go as far to say their best vocal blends ended after Pet Sounds. To my ear their voices after that seemed to 'flatten' a little bit...not they they were off key but perhaps their voices settled into adulthood and they lost a little vibrato (just speculating). Even the late 60s high vocal points to me don't seem to match the intensity/strength of the early-mid 60 stuff.

The only later ones that come close in my opinion are the Love You backing vocals because the rough edges match the synth production / tone of the album really well.

[JK]

I like the 1971 album version best, it just sounds the most finished and there's something magical about Carl doing the first verses and then Brian's voice coming in in the 'Dove-nested towers' section.

This.

[thorgil]

I don't know if this can be considered an unpopular opinion here, but it's a direct answer to an observation I just read on the PS forum: no, I don't consider Brian's solo output "lackluster" at all, even compared to his creative peak. Different? Yes. Lackluster? No way.
Between PS/Smile and "lackluster" there's lots of space, and Brian' solo work can be easily accomodated there.

[KDS]

I don't know if this can be considered an unpopular opinion here, but it's a direct answer to an observation I just read on the PS forum: no, I don't consider Brian's solo output "lackluster" at all, even compared to his creative peak. Different? Yes. Lackluster? No way.
Between PS/Smile and "lackluster" there's lots of space, and Brian' solo work can be easily accomodated there.

I don't think lackluster is the right word to describe Brian's solo career.  I'd go with patchy or inconsistent at times. 

But, as I posted on PSF, comparing his solo output to his 1961-71 output is extremely unfair. 

[HeyJude]

In my opinion, there's a lot to be said for the idea of keeping creating, of simply continuing to make stuff. Obviously, if one is literally churning out 100% garbage, then it's not at all interesting.

But Brian has been the only member of the band in the last 25+ years to even semi-regularly continue to put product out. The band itself has been patchy since the early-mid 80s in this regard, and no other members after a flurry of two Carl solo albums have managed to do much. I sense they have created more in the studio (Al must have a ton of tracks he's doodled with in the last 20-30 years), but haven't put much out.

So as far as I'm concerned, Brian's clearly *mixed/spotty* slate of solo material is still welcomed if only to get a few gems per album. They're almost always still there. Even the Disney album has a few moments of brilliance.

The band as a whole and on an individual basis has been spotty on the *creative* side of things for most of their career. Most bands and artists of that longevity are. Even during their amazing 60s run (and this actually *may* be an unpopular opinion), the band only briefly achieved the front-to-back perfection on individual albums that the Beatles did on *most* of their albums. There was filler on early BB albums, and even amazing mid-period 60s albums like "Today" and "Summer Days" aren't perfect. I still contend "Pet Sounds" is their best album not because of some unifying theme or groundbreaking this or that, but first and foremost because all the songs are good! And I do believe Brian got *that* from the Beatles.

By 1967 the albums were already once again bogged down by at least a little filler. And let's be clear: In many cases, I even love the filler. "How She Boogalooed It" is pretty inane, and it would probably be my first victim in a "Wild Honey Survivor" scenario. But it's also part of the story now, part of that album, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

So back to Brian's solo output, a lot of his albums are very much like mid-late 70s or early 80s BBs in that there are some gems, a few weird ones a lot of people hate that I actually quite like ("Oh Darlin'" for instance), and some dreck. But I may be in the minority in that I'll sit through "Little Children" to hear "Let It Shine", or sit through very Bennett-ey stuff on "Lucky Old Sun" to get some inspired true-Brian moments.

[KDS]

In my opinion, there's a lot to be said for the idea of keeping creating, of simply continuing to make stuff. Obviously, if one is literally churning out 100% garbage, then it's not at all interesting.

But Brian has been the only member of the band in the last 25+ years to even semi-regularly continue to put product out. The band itself has been patchy since the early-mid 80s in this regard, and no other members after a flurry of two Carl solo albums have managed to do much. I sense they have created more in the studio (Al must have a ton of tracks he's doodled with in the last 20-30 years), but haven't put much out.

So as far as I'm concerned, Brian's clearly *mixed/spotty* slate of solo material is still welcomed if only to get a few gems per album. They're almost always still there. Even the Disney album has a few moments of brilliance.

The band as a whole and on an individual basis has been spotty on the *creative* side of things for most of their career. Most bands and artists of that longevity are. Even during their amazing 60s run (and this actually *may* be an unpopular opinion), the band only briefly achieved the front-to-back perfection on individual albums that the Beatles did on *most* of their albums. There was filler on early BB albums, and even amazing mid-period 60s albums like "Today" and "Summer Days" aren't perfect. I still contend "Pet Sounds" is their best album not because of some unifying theme or groundbreaking this or that, but first and foremost because all the songs are good! And I do believe Brian got *that* from the Beatles.

By 1967 the albums were already once again bogged down by at least a little filler. And let's be clear: In many cases, I even love the filler. "How She Boogalooed It" is pretty inane, and it would probably be my first victim in a "Wild Honey Survivor" scenario. But it's also part of the story now, part of that album, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

So back to Brian's solo output, a lot of his albums are very much like mid-late 70s or early 80s BBs in that there are some gems, a few weird ones a lot of people hate that I actually quite like ("Oh Darlin'" for instance), and some dreck. But I may be in the minority in that I'll sit through "Little Children" to hear "Let It Shine", or sit through very Bennett-ey stuff on "Lucky Old Sun" to get some inspired true-Brian moments.

In all honesty, HJ, I think Brian's output has improved a lot in the last decade.  I think his work on TLOS, TWGMTR, and NPP is very good.  I think his most patchy material is from his first album and the GIOMH album. 

[HeyJude]

I think BW '88 is, compositionally, one of his strongest. The production and arrangement with heavy synths is the biggest hindrance. It isn't perfect by any stretch, "Little Children" is the definition of inane. But a lot of great songs and great vocals (even if some of them may have been run through a sampler, as they also apparently did for OCA).

TLOS has never "done" it for me the same way it has for others. Some great stuff on there. The "original" demo of "Midnight's Another Day" as release on his website is brilliant. But also some rather "bleh" stuff on there, and some of it sounds more Bennett than Brian. A few of the more Brian-esque moments were left as bonus tracks, like "Message Man."

I'd say even GIOMH has some very good *songs* on it. But the production is bad and all over the place, Brian's stacked vocals sounding amazing and very "Brian" and then veering off the cliff where you can tell if they had just done more takes it would have been better. "A Friend Like You" sounds like it has a great song buried under there, but the over-the-top arrangement with Disney-style flourishes hinders it. I love Steve Kalinich, but the lyrics on that one are a bit too drippy.

NPP is still one I'm very mixed on. "Sail Away" is great. Al's leads are great. But a lot of the tunes are very middle-of-the-road to me. "Tell Me Why" and "Whatever Happened' sound like well-performed bland attempts to sound like "Today" era material. "Saturday Night" is perhaps the most commercial-sounding song on the album; too bad Nate Ruess's voice is kind of bland. I would love to hear the Matt Jardine guide vocal on that one. "Our Special Love" might be, and I stress *might* be, the worst song ever included on a released BW solo album.

[KDS]

I think BW '88 is, compositionally, one of his strongest. The production and arrangement with heavy synths is the biggest hindrance. It isn't perfect by any stretch, "Little Children" is the definition of inane. But a lot of great songs and great vocals (even if some of them may have been run through a sampler, as they also apparently did for OCA).

TLOS has never "done" it for me the same way it has for others. Some great stuff on there. The "original" demo of "Midnight's Another Day" as release on his website is brilliant. But also some rather "bleh" stuff on there, and some of it sounds more Bennett than Brian. A few of the more Brian-esque moments were left as bonus tracks, like "Message Man."

I'd say even GIOMH has some very good *songs* on it. But the production is bad and all over the place, Brian's stacked vocals sounding amazing and very "Brian" and then veering off the cliff where you can tell if they had just done more takes it would have been better. "A Friend Like You" sounds like it has a great song buried under there, but the over-the-top arrangement with Disney-style flourishes hinders it. I love Steve Kalinich, but the lyrics on that one are a bit too drippy.

NPP is still one I'm very mixed on. "Sail Away" is great. Al's leads are great. But a lot of the tunes are very middle-of-the-road to me. "Tell Me Why" and "Whatever Happened' sound like well-performed bland attempts to sound like "Today" era material. "Saturday Night" is perhaps the most commercial-sounding song on the album; too bad Nate Ruess's voice is kind of bland. I would love to hear the Matt Jardine guide vocal on that one. "Our Special Love" might be, and I stress *might* be, the worst song ever included on a released BW solo album.

People have a lot of different reactions to BW's solo material.  While you think BW88 is great, I think it's kinda "meh" overall.  I actually prefer the Imagination album.  We also different greatly on TLOS, as I think that's BW's best solo LP. 

And my nominee for worst track on a BW solo album is easily Runaway Dancer.  Or maybe something from the back end of GIOMH.

[CenturyDeprived]

In my opinion, there's a lot to be said for the idea of keeping creating, of simply continuing to make stuff. Obviously, if one is literally churning out 100% garbage, then it's not at all interesting.

But Brian has been the only member of the band in the last 25+ years to even semi-regularly continue to put product out. The band itself has been patchy since the early-mid 80s in this regard, and no other members after a flurry of two Carl solo albums have managed to do much. I sense they have created more in the studio (Al must have a ton of tracks he's doodled with in the last 20-30 years), but haven't put much out.

So as far as I'm concerned, Brian's clearly *mixed/spotty* slate of solo material is still welcomed if only to get a few gems per album. They're almost always still there. Even the Disney album has a few moments of brilliance.

The band as a whole and on an individual basis has been spotty on the *creative* side of things for most of their career. Most bands and artists of that longevity are. Even during their amazing 60s run (and this actually *may* be an unpopular opinion), the band only briefly achieved the front-to-back perfection on individual albums that the Beatles did on *most* of their albums. There was filler on early BB albums, and even amazing mid-period 60s albums like "Today" and "Summer Days" aren't perfect. I still contend "Pet Sounds" is their best album not because of some unifying theme or groundbreaking this or that, but first and foremost because all the songs are good! And I do believe Brian got *that* from the Beatles.

By 1967 the albums were already once again bogged down by at least a little filler. And let's be clear: In many cases, I even love the filler. "How She Boogalooed It" is pretty inane, and it would probably be my first victim in a "Wild Honey Survivor" scenario. But it's also part of the story now, part of that album, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

So back to Brian's solo output, a lot of his albums are very much like mid-late 70s or early 80s BBs in that there are some gems, a few weird ones a lot of people hate that I actually quite like ("Oh Darlin'" for instance), and some dreck. But I may be in the minority in that I'll sit through "Little Children" to hear "Let It Shine", or sit through very Bennett-ey stuff on "Lucky Old Sun" to get some inspired true-Brian moments.

Which tracks from TLOS in particular do you find to be very Bennett-ey? I'm always curious about which tracks may actually be more Scott's babies than Brian's.

[thorgil]

And...
How much of the 60's is Lovey?
How much of Pet Sounds is Asherey?
How much of Smile is Smiley... oops, Parksey?
How much of the 70's is Rieley?
How much of the 80's is Landey?
How much of the 90's/early 2000's is Paley?
How much of Christmas is Christmasey?
How much of Imagination, TWGMTR and NPP is Thomasey?

Ah, these collaborators. It's like you need a mess of help to stand alone.

[CenturyDeprived]

And...
How much of the 60's is Lovey?
How much of Pet Sounds is Asherey?
How much of Smile is Smiley... oops, Parksey?
How much of the 70's is Rieley?
How much of the 80's is Landey?
How much of the 90's/early 2000's is Paley?
How much of Christmas is Christmasey?
How much of Imagination, TWGMTR and NPP is Thomasey?

Ah, these collaborators. It's like you need a mess of help to stand alone.

For whatever it's worth in relation to the final product, I've learned from reading this board that both Let the Wind Blow + All I Wanna Do started out as more Mike Love tunes, or at least that the origin of the melody (?) of those songs began with him. So whoever is gonna put down Mike's contributions to the band, regardless what one thinks of the guy, those two songs which are undeniably rad at the very least started out as his babies from a musical standpoint, as far as I've heard on this board.

Interesting to consider the questions you bring up about those other songs too.

[KDS]

And...
How much of the 60's is Lovey?
How much of Pet Sounds is Asherey?
How much of Smile is Smiley... oops, Parksey?
How much of the 70's is Rieley?
How much of the 80's is Landey?
How much of the 90's/early 2000's is Paley?
How much of Christmas is Christmasey?
How much of Imagination, TWGMTR and NPP is Thomasey?

Ah, these collaborators. It's like you need a mess of help to stand alone.

For whatever it's worth in relation to the final product, I've learned from reading this board that both Let the Wind Blow + All I Wanna Do started out as more Mike Love tunes, or at least that the origin of the melody (?) of those songs began with him. So whoever is gonna put down Mike's contributions to the band, regardless what one thinks of the guy, those two songs which are undeniably rad at the very least started out as his babies from a musical standpoint, as far as I've heard on this board.

Interesting to consider the questions you bring up about those other songs too.

I kinda get people having a problem with Mike, but as you pointed out, he made a lot of positive contributions to The Beach Boys. 

[CenturyDeprived]

And...
How much of the 60's is Lovey?
How much of Pet Sounds is Asherey?
How much of Smile is Smiley... oops, Parksey?
How much of the 70's is Rieley?
How much of the 80's is Landey?
How much of the 90's/early 2000's is Paley?
How much of Christmas is Christmasey?
How much of Imagination, TWGMTR and NPP is Thomasey?

Ah, these collaborators. It's like you need a mess of help to stand alone.

For whatever it's worth in relation to the final product, I've learned from reading this board that both Let the Wind Blow + All I Wanna Do started out as more Mike Love tunes, or at least that the origin of the melody (?) of those songs began with him. So whoever is gonna put down Mike's contributions to the band, regardless what one thinks of the guy, those two songs which are undeniably rad at the very least started out as his babies from a musical standpoint, as far as I've heard on this board.

Interesting to consider the questions you bring up about those other songs too.

I kinda get people having a problem with Mike, but as you pointed out, he made a lot of positive contributions to The Beach Boys.  

Totally. Nobody should deny Mike made some undeniable positive contributions to The Beach Boys, just as nobody should deny, whitewash, or defend the negative things. Some things his has done are simply not defensible (people defending some of his sh*t need to have their heads examined), and I would include the view that Mike brought nothing positive to the band to be a ridiculous, indefensible ideology. I don't actually think that any well-informed hardcore BB fan actually believes that, I just think that a small amount of them who won't ever say anything good about Mike do this because they hate the bad things about Mike *so* much, that they won't publicly admit to his undeniably good contributions. F*ck extremism, both in terms of endless pure Mike hate, and endless pure Mike defense.

[CenturyDeprived]

My unpopular BB opinions of the day: I like about 1/2 (or maybe closer to 1/3) of the album Summer in Paradise, and think the better songs could have made an ok (not super great, but ok) EP for 1992.

I also dig most of the new songs from the album Still Cruisin', as cheesy as they are. In fact, ditch the oldies + ditch Wipeout from that album, and in their place, add the best tracks from SIP, and you have a somewhat solid, although very dated, BB album for that time period.

I also think the outro of Make it Big with Brian + Mike's vocal interplay is one of my favorite BB moments in the entire catalog.