MiC up for order on Amazon, August release

[bonnevillemariner]

This isn't like ten years ago, where it was all or nothing. Then the complaints might have been justified -- now they're really not.

Not so fast.  What about the "album only" designation that these services give to key tracks?  Wouldn't be surprised to see "album only" on tracks like WIBNTLA.  They're not idiots.  If I can buy all of the tracks I want to buy individually-- on release day-- THEN the complaints won't be justified.  I'm not holding my breath.

[AndrewHickey]

This isn't like ten years ago, where it was all or nothing. Then the complaints might have been justified -- now they're really not.

I don't know...

I still think certain complaints are valid. Certainly about the price if it stays the same as it does seem more expensive that other sets on the market.

It's the same price as the Smile Sessions set at the moment, and I'm pretty sure the price will come down before release day.

[Nicko1234]

It's the same price as the Smile Sessions set at the moment, and I'm pretty sure the price will come down before release day.

But more expensive than the sets for other acts. As I said yesterday, more expensive than a 17 disc Harry Nilsson set.

If TSS was the same price then it kind of backs up the 'Capitol bleeding the fans dry' argument.

[Cabinessenceking]

This was ingenious. By throwing on Dennis' "Live Again" they did just enough to shut up the diehard crowd, or at least enough to prevent them from forming a consensus. I remember posting a few months that I suspected this box set would mainly be a rehash of the BB hits and the old bonus tracks from the twofer. Turns out I was being generous - most of the bonus tracks are still unavailable. But hey, for over $100, you can get high fidelity versions of like 7 unreleased BB songs! Great deal!

You mean 60. Easy mistake to make when you're acting like an entitled child.

his money. when buying a product entitlement is everything. Why should he pay for something he thinks cheats him off his money?

In business there is nothing called entitlement. People buy stuff or they don't. Why is this board full of people calling people 'ungrateful bastards' for not wanting to buy a 100$ box which only marginally expands their listening experience. I'm not buying something for 100$ when what I want to listen to deserves only a fraction of that.

If you consider triffles such as 'Transcendental Meditation (Instrumental)' to be one of the 60 unreleased tracks you will obviously disagree with him. Fact is this box only gives us 10 brand new tracks out of perhaps 30 which are out there and of which many rival 'Da Do Ron Ron' in terms of overal listening pleasure.

WIBNTLA is only given to ensure people's purchase.
This box is great as a follow-up to GV, but yo, I already have GV and I have Smile so why should I buy Smile Vocal montage yet again?
If Capitol ain't real I won't give them my deal. Many here obviously feel the same.

[The Heartical Don]

Price point in Holland: € 93.99.

Which means that my retailer will sell it for around € 90.00, in all probability (the above is at bol.com, who's always a little bit more expensive).

A very generous offer IMHO, the TSS box costs € 144.99.

[pixletwin]

If Capitol ain't real I won't give them my deal. Many here obviously feel the same.

One big differenmce between you and the "many who obiviously feel the same" is that they are talking about cherry picking what they want and what they don't want from amazon or iTunes (which is perfectly fine) while you have stated repeatedly that you are going to torrent off of someone else's purchase. 

[Nicko1234]

One big differenmce between you and the "many who obiviously feel the same" is that they are talking about cherry picking what they want and what they don't want from amazon or iTunes (which is perfectly fine) while you have stated repeatedly that you are going to torrent off of someone else's purchase. 

It wouldn't be a big surprise though if a lot of people felt that way. Obviously there are plenty of illegal downloaders anyway but when you have a situation like this where a massive chunk of tracks are already available then it could be an even bigger issue.

[SMiLE Brian]

It's the same price as the Smile Sessions set at the moment, and I'm pretty sure the price will come down before release day.

But more expensive than the sets for other acts. As I said yesterday, more expensive than a 17 disc Harry Nilsson set.

If TSS was the same price then it kind of backs up the 'Capitol bleeding the fans dry' argument.

The nilsson set does raise questions about this set's price, for $130 two more discs of rarities/ live material could be added. I would love more Chicago 1965 and Hawaii material (live/studio).

[Matt Bielewicz]

This is a late reply to TV Forces, here - put it down to time zone differences and boring work interfering. 'Jeff' already replied to this post in a similar vein, but I wanted to add my two cents, and come up with a decent, reasonable reply that doesn't descend to the level of 'well I think this track is way better than the cra-pola they've chosen to release, so there' and personal name-calling and examines in detail possible sensible reasons why some of the stuff he mentions hasn't made it out on MIC.

This was posted by ShardEnder at the Steve Hoffman Forum.

I just had a quick look at Andrew G. Doe's website and managed to assemble quite the list (and not even a comprehensive one, at that!) of tracks that I feel would have been great to hear officially:

 Game Of Love
 Honey Get Home
 Walkin'
 Tears In The Morning (early lyric version)
 Carnival/Over The Waves
 My Solution
 Big Sur (early 4/4 version)
 Carry Me Home
 We Got Love
 Hard Times
 It's A New Day
 Beatrice From Baltimore*
 Rolling Up To Heaven*
 Battle Hymn Of The Republic*
 Lucy Jones*
 Grateful Are We For Little Children
 In The Back Of My Mind (1975 version)
 Runnin' Bear
 Shake, Rattle And Roll
 We Gotta Groove
 Marilyn Rovell*
 Ruby Baby (1976 version)
 Mony Mony
 Life Is For The Living
 Hey, Little Tomboy (Adult Child version)*
 Deep Purple
 Everybody Wants To Live
 Shortenin' Bread (1973 version)
 Lines
 On Broadway*
 It's Trying To Say
 New England Waltz
 That Special Feeling*
 It's Over Now (piano demo)*
 Still I Dream Of It (piano demo)*
 Love Is A Woman (piano demo)
 Mona (piano demo)
 Airplane (piano demo)
 Let's Put Our Hearts Together (piano demo)*
 I'll Bet He's Nice (piano demo)*
 Honkin' Down The Highway (alternate Billy Hinsche lead vocal mix)
 Drip Drop*
 I'm Begging You Please*
 Skatetown U.S.A.
 Calendar Girl
 Stevie*
 Oh, Lord*
 Labor Day
 Rock And Roll To The Rescue
 Problem Child
 Chasing The Sky

Any songs marked with * are ones that I'm not sure BRI would like out there for content or quality issues, but there's clearly more than enough to fill another two - maybe even three - discs with great material to keep hardcore fans satisfied. Still, I guess they'll want to keep something else locked away for the inevitable "best of" compilations and possible future anniversary boxed sets... call them financial incentives held back to make us buy the same old yet again, if you will.

It's easy to cut and paste a list of track names that "shoulda made it out there!!!!", but this simply doesn't do justice to the releasability (or otherwise) of the tracks that the listed names describe. Some of these compositions were worked on in the studio, but never properly recorded; in other cases the tapes have been lost since, or the names evolved into other, eventually released tracks. Many of the tracks above are also severely unfinished, to the point where the band would probably shoot down their eventual release forever. I've already mentioned 'Walkin' as an example here upthread: a more unfinished lead vocal it's hard to imagine, with the lead vocalist losing interest live in the middle of the take and 'walking' out to do something more interesting (see what I did there?). In the real world, what band is EVER going to put that out commercially, and expect people to pay money for it? To working musicians, it's embarrassing, something that should never have made it off work tapes and out of the studio. That's not a subjective judgement, me saying I think the song is embarrassing (though 'Walkin' is indeed no Surf's Up); what I mean is that its extremely obviously unfinished nature, and the fact that the lead vocalist is so negative about the song AS HE'S SINGING IT means the band are ALWAYS going to view that as an unreleasable embarrassment. Unless, of course, there's another multitrack or take with a completed vocal that never got booted and that we've never heard.

So objections like the above nobble the concept of releasing many of the above tracks right away. We can scream for the release of Beatrice from Baltimore all we want, and point to its place on a list of songs Brian Wilson allegedly worked on in the 1970s, but if there isn't still a releasable tape of that number anywhere, it's never going to be released —because it can't be.

Then there are the songs that were recorded and do still exist, but still aren't being released: stuff like Carry Me Home, It's A New Day, Big Sur in 4/4 time etc. Though it's impossible to say with certainty, these may have fallen foul of personal preferences and political decisions in the BRI camp. Lots of people here have offered opinions on this. Brian may have shot down Carry Me Home because of his memories of Dennis etc etc (although I see theories are now circulating that lack of tapes may have scuppered this one's inclusion, after all). As I said yesterday: this is a release by the Beach Boys and they're not going to want everything released that *we* would necessarily want released. Simple band politics probably played its part in defining what got released here as well; has every member been given a crack of the whip? Are there enough Mike tracks, enough Alan tracks, enough Dennis tracks etc etc. In that respect, releasing this stuff commercially is much harder than copying it illicitly and putting it out on bootlegs, because everyone has to be happy with the tracklist and give their approval before it goes out in a commercial release.

Another reason for the non-appearance of some of these tracks, even where they're not non-existent or politically bedevilled, is likely the same one that prevented their release in the past: they're not very good. Every hardcore Wilsonista clamours for the release of Adult/Child... but to the band, it would seem that a goodly portion of it is embarrassing to them, and/or brings back bad personal memories of times they'd rather forget... or maybe, from today's standpoint, they just don't like what they made back then any more, no matter how enthusiastic they might have been about it at the time.

These are all real-world objections that may have whittled the suitability for release of many of those unreleased tracks down pretty damn quick, and no amount of pointing to the list and moaning about why they haven't been released yet is going to make any difference. I would wager that a goodly proportion of the above list of tracks will *never* be deemed commercially releasable by the band, even where competent recordings of the songs do exist (and that's by no means the case with many of the above tracks!). With many of those, the versions we already have on boot are probably as good as we're ever going to get.

Finally, I'd like to make a point I haven't seen anyone make here yet concerning what IS being released on this set. I've read moans that (for example) such and such unworthy track is taking up room that could have been occupied by 'more deserving' candidates. So by way of example, there's a new mix of Slip On Through, despite the fact that the original is ALSO on here. So yeah, ditto with Don't Go Near The Water. And there's a new version of Rock And Roll Music, which was already released on 15 Big Ones, to name just three of the tracks getting it in the neck. Now, getting into personal taste here for a moment: I love Slip On Through, but yes, it is already available on Sunflower. I find Don't Go Near The Water an embarrassment (the couplet "Toothpaste And Soap will make our oceans a bubble bath; so let's avoid an ecological aftermath" is surely one of the band's — or indeed ANY band's — all-time worst lyrics ever). And the Beach Boys' Rock And Roll Music is second only to Barbara Ann on my personal list of the band's unlistenable stinkers. And yet, I am positively excited to hear all of these tracks on MIC. Why? Because they may be different to the versions we know. An accapella remix of Slip On Through has the potential to be truly great: I can imagine what those low-in-the-mix bluesy backing vocals might sound like given extra prominence in a new vocals-only mix. The synth-heavy track to Don't Go Near The Water will no doubt be way more interesting shorn of its lyrical cheese, and I hope we still get to hear the beautiful vocal tag in a new mix; to me, that has always been the best bit of the song anyway. And Rock and Roll Music - well, I don't know what can be done to make that track better, but Josh has heard an interesting version of it, I trust his ears, and this may be that version. Sometimes a remix can hands-down transform a track, and as someone said above, there is a semi-decent mini-album somewhere under all the overdubs and wonky vocals on 15 Big Ones. It should maybe have been the 5 OK Ones EP instead, but there is something of quality in there, and perhaps this remix can bring it out on this track.

Or maybe not. Sure, perhaps these three tracks will turn out not to be that special. But don't go shooting 'em down before you've heard them. You can't, in all honesty, write 'em off on the basis of the versions of them that you've already heard. Not just yet...

PS In the same vein, people are moaning about the instrumental track to Transcendental Meditation being included. Well, hold your horses. The placing in the listing would suggest that this is going to be the backing track to 15 Big Ones' 'TM Song' rather than the unlistenably dischordant final track from Friends. And I know which I'd rather listen to an instrumental track from. And even if it IS the Friends track, a lot of the dissonance is in the vocals, so the instrumental may be far more listenable. If it is the 15 Big Ones Track, I will be delighted; to me, that one is another great BW curio that the vocals rather spoil, a bit like Fairy Tale from Holland....

[shelter]

I'm going to buy this set with the thought NOT being ripped off (and I consider myself a die-hard fan)

I do think it's hard not to feel at least a little bit ripped off. Why is it that about half the time that Capitol tosses us another couple of rarities or stereo mixes, they're making us pay for Barbara Ann, Surfin' USA, Good Vibrations and I Get Around yet again?

You'd think that record companies like Capitol would desperately try to keep the last remaining CD buying completists on board, but with releases like this one it's almost like they've given up already and just want to squeeze some money out of us while they still can.

[AndrewHickey]

This isn't like ten years ago, where it was all or nothing. Then the complaints might have been justified -- now they're really not.

Not so fast.  What about the "album only" designation that these services give to key tracks?  Wouldn't be surprised to see "album only" on tracks like WIBNTLA.  They're not idiots.  If I can buy all of the tracks I want to buy individually-- on release day-- THEN the complaints won't be justified.  I'm not holding my breath.

Well, looking at the Smile Sessions box set on Amazon, there's not a single track on there marked 'album only', and in fact you can buy the whole box set as MP3s for £37 -- while the physical box costs £109.58.

As for the "on release day", now you're getting unbelievably petty. So you really think it would be utterly unreasonable for those who just want to pay £1 for one track to have to wait a few weeks compared to those prepared to pay for the full box set?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Maybe I've missed it in the preceding nineteen pages of wailing, gnashing of teeth and rending of garments in anguish... but has anyone mentioned that "Do It Again" is a stereo remix ?

[pixletwin]

To be fair I probably feel a little less ripped off because I never bought 50 Big Ones. But once I knew and understood that this would be, basically, an update of the GV boxset (which I also never bought) I figured it rendered 50BO kind of superfluos.

Result: No ripoff for me. But I understand why others would feel different. I'm cool with that.

[Nicko1234]

Finally, I'd like to make a point I haven't seen anyone make here yet concerning what IS being released on this set. I've read moans that (for example) such and such unworthy track is taking up room that could have been occupied by 'more deserving' candidates. So by way of example, there's a new mix of Slip On Through, despite the fact that the original is ALSO on here. So yeah, ditto with Don't Go Near The Water. And there's a new version of Rock And Roll Music, which was already released on 15 Big Ones, to name just three of the tracks getting it in the neck. Now, getting into personal taste here for a moment: I love Slip On Through, but yes, it is already available on Sunflower. I find Don't Go Near The Water an embarrassment (the couplet "Toothpaste And Soap will make our oceans a bubble bath; so let's avoid an ecological aftermath" is surely one of the band's — or indeed ANY band's — all-time worst lyrics ever). And the Beach Boys' Rock And Roll Music is second only to Barbara Ann on my personal list of the band's unlistenable stinkers. And yet, I am positively excited to hear all of these tracks on MIC. Why? Because they may be different to the versions we know. An accapella remix of Slip On Through has the potential to be truly great: I can imagine what those low-in-the-mix bluesy backing vocals might sound like given extra prominence in a new vocals-only mix. The synth-heavy track to Don't Go Near The Water will no doubt be way more interesting shorn of its lyrical cheese, and I hope we still get to hear the beautiful vocal tag in a new mix; to me, that has always been the best bit of the song anyway. And Rock and Roll Music - well, I don't know what can be done to make that track better, but Josh has heard an interesting version of it, I trust his ears, and this may be that version. Sometimes a remix can hands-down transform a track, and as someone said above, there is a semi-decent mini-album somewhere under all the overdubs and wonky vocals on 15 Big Ones. It should maybe have been the 5 OK Ones EP instead, but there is something of quality in there, and perhaps this remix can bring it out on this track.

Or maybe not. Sure, perhaps these three tracks will turn out not to be that special. But don't go shooting 'em down before you've heard them. You can't, in all honesty, write 'em off on the basis of the versions of them that you've already heard. Not just yet...

I haven't really seen anyone complaining about Rock and Roll Music but I think they'd be wrong if they did. This is one example of a good thing about the set - a hit song being released in a very different form - and it is a shame that this didn't happen more.

I think the biggest complaint about Slip on Through and Don't Go Near the Water is that they are there twice. If they were only there in the rarer form then it wouldn't be a problem.

[bonnevillemariner]

Well, looking at the Smile Sessions box set on Amazon, there's not a single track on there marked 'album only', and in fact you can buy the whole box set as MP3s for £37 -- while the physical box costs £109.58.

Sure, and I really appreciated that, but I buy a lot of music and more often than not there's at least one "album only" track.  When I bought In the Key of Disney last year, the most interesting track to me was album only, so I bought the whole thing.  Didn't want to do that, but it was all or nothing.  I think the complaint was justified there.  So TSS was all available individually (possibly from day one, likely not).  That doesn't guarantee MIC will be.

As for the "on release day", now you're getting unbelievably petty. So you really think it would be utterly unreasonable for those who just want to pay £1 for one track to have to wait a few weeks compared to those prepared to pay for the full box set?

I don't think it's unreasonable for somebody who doesn't want to buy the hits for the umpteenth time to hope to buy the tracks he doesn't have are available individually on release day.  Some albums are all or nothing for years before the tracks are available individually.  The label/music service has every right to do this, but I don't think it's petty for me to feel ripped off.

[AndrewHickey]

Maybe I've missed it in the preceding nineteen pages of wailing, gnashing of teeth and rending of garments in anguish... but has anyone mentioned that "Do It Again" is a stereo remix ?

A few people on the other thread.

[TV Forces]

The further Bruce the "Friends Hater" is away from this set, the better. Seriously. That soul-less dork hates Friends. How can you hate Friends?!! Meant For You is 20 seconds of heaven.

What are the other 18 seconds of "Meant for You"?

[Dunderhead]

I simply can't understand why so many people here take the disappointment others feel towards this release so freaking personally. Why is there such a desperation to justify your own desire to purchase to the fans that don't share that desire?

I think this box sucks. Pure and simple. If this had been four or five or six discs of rarities only, I would pre-order this and pay probably up to $200 for it retail without hesitation. It certainly isn't a bad thing this is getting released, and it's good to have some of this material available so I can't take issue with it in that regard, but still, I'm in ultimately no hurry to get this.

If this is something that appeals to you, buy it. My being disappointed doesn't somehow invalidate or delegitimize your purchase. I just feel like this thing is a big rip off and a major let down, and for that reason I'm not going to buy it, but that fact doesn't mean you can't.

[Matt Bielewicz]

I simply can't understand why so many people here take the disappointment others feel towards this release so freaking personally. Why is there such a desperation to justify your own desire to purchase to the fans that don't share that desire?

Uh... there isn't. I like box track list, I buy box. Simple.

I think this box sucks. Pure and simple.

Cool, fair play to you. I simply can't understand why so many people here take the enthusiasm others feel towards this release so personally. Why is there such a desperation to justify your own desire not to purchase to the fans that don't share that desire?

...If this is something that appeals to you, buy it.

To quote Daniel Craig as James Bond: "Thank you. I will"

[tansen]

I find it a combination of funny and sad (I guess the term is tragicomic) how people can feel ripped of over a purchase that they are no way obliged to make. It's so easy: if you don't find its content sufficient, don't buy the box set and stfu about it. Complaining about it will not add more songs.

This isn't a box set for just the die hard fan, it's a box set for everyone - an upgrade to the 93 set if you will. A box set that new born fans, your casual redneck, the regular fan, and to some extent the die hard fan will enjoy.  Sure, I'd love if it was six CD's of rarities, but that just isn't the case. So let's enjoy what we get - or not in which case,  just don't buy the box set and go to iTunes/Amazon/whatever and buy individual tracks.

Personally I'm thinking, it's a mere 100 bucks.. it sure won't ruin me either way.

[Matt Bielewicz]

I think the biggest complaint about Slip on Through and Don't Go Near the Water is that they are there twice. If they were only there in the rarer form then it wouldn't be a problem.

An excellent point. But perhaps the reason for that is partly to be found in the sort of political stuff I mentioned upthread. This is pure speculation, but perhaps Mike said "Whaaa--??? You're putting Don't Go Near The Water on... but WITHOUT my brilliantly judged early 70s eco-aware lyrics? Huh, no way. If the instrumental goes on, the original has to make the tracklisting too"... or something daft like that.

A convincing explanation of that sort is admittedly harder to come up with to account for the presence of two instances of Slip On Through on the set, much as I love the original, and much as I'm stoked for the inclusion of an accapella mix, as explained above.

[AndrewHickey]

Finally, I'd like to make a point I haven't seen anyone make here yet concerning what IS being released on this set. I've read moans that (for example) such and such unworthy track is taking up room that could have been occupied by 'more deserving' candidates. So by way of example, there's a new mix of Slip On Through, despite the fact that the original is ALSO on here. So yeah, ditto with Don't Go Near The Water.

And with those two tracks, and a few others, they're *not* actually "taking up room that could have been occupied by 'more deserving' candidates". Universal have to pay mechanical royalties on each individual song that makes it onto the box set. Depending on various things like length of the track, that means that putting two versions of the same song on the set is much cheaper than putting two different songs on. (That's the same reason why on the GV box there were no songs on disc five that didn't appear on one of the other four discs).

[Nicko1234]

And with those two tracks, and a few others, they're *not* actually "taking up room that could have been occupied by 'more deserving' candidates". Universal have to pay mechanical royalties on each individual song that makes it onto the box set. Depending on various things like length of the track, that means that putting two versions of the same song on the set is much cheaper than putting two different songs on. (That's the same reason why on the GV box there were no songs on disc five that didn't appear on one of the other four discs).

Which makes it odd that several songs from disc 6 aren't included on the rest of the set (albeit Help Me Rhonda is included 3 times).

[Dunderhead]

It sucks. It just sucks. Sorry, but it does.

[Nicko1234]

I find it a combination of funny and sad (I guess the term is tragicomic) how people can feel ripped of over a purchase that they are no way obliged to make. It's so easy: if you don't find its content sufficient, don't buy the box set and stfu about it. Complaining about it will not add more songs.

Customers do have a right to post positive and negative feedback. There have been plenty of occasions in the past (BW Live at the Roxy being released 3 times with different bonus tracks) where fans have complained about being ripped off. Which is fair enough even if you don't agree.