The 1st American Revolution: 237 years later...

[Bean Bag]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ag5nt9581g



“I am not here as a serf or vassal.
I am not begging my lords for mercy.
I’m a born free American woman,
wife, mother and citizen.

And I’m telling my government that you’ve forgotten your place.

It’s not your responsibility to look out for my well-being,
and to monitor my speech.

It’s not your right to assert an agenda.
Your post, the post that you occupy,
exists to preserve American liberty.

You’ve sworn to perform that duty.
And you have faltered.”

[Bean Bag]

NSA Said to Cull Millions of Verizon Records Under Court Order

Senator Mark Udall, a Colorado Democrat:
“widescale surveillance..."
"should concern all of us..."
"Americans would find shocking...”

Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union
"It is beyond Orwellian..."
“basic democratic rights...surrendered in secret..."
"unaccountable intelligence agencies.”

President George W. Bush’s administration began the so- called Terrorist Surveillance Program in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks... The Obama administration had refused to disclose how many U.S. citizens had their communications monitored by the NSA.

[Bean Bag]

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things'



Is this real!?!?!  This is most amazing developing story that I've ever seen in my life!!

Watch this interview...

[Mahalo]

What makes it even crazier is that we know during the IRS revelations who in fact the powers that be have it out for...   

[Mendota Heights]

NSA Said to Cull Millions of Verizon Records Under Court Order

Senator Mark Udall, a Colorado Democrat:
“widescale surveillance..."
"should concern all of us..."
"Americans would find shocking...”

Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union
"It is beyond Orwellian..."
“basic democratic rights...surrendered in secret..."
"unaccountable intelligence agencies.”

President George W. Bush’s administration began the so- called Terrorist Surveillance Program in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks... The Obama administration had refused to disclose how many U.S. citizens had their communications monitored by the NSA.

[filledeplage]

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things'



Is this real!?!?!  This is most amazing developing story that I've ever seen in my life!!

Watch this interview...

A joke that residential customers should be under Big Brother like this. In order to get a residential install you need to identify yourself, with a Social Security number, etc., and, most of these terrorists are using disposable cell phones, not a land line.  God Bless him; he is a hero.  Both political parties are wrong.  Now it is out in the open. Good. 

Hope he is better treated than the more recent whistleblowers were.  No need for more martyrs in the name of free speech and transparency.   

[Bean Bag]

Full-blown, textbook case of Unlawful Searches and Seizures.  Blatant.  Nobody (and I mean NOBODY) can make a case that this isn't a giant F-you to the 4th Amendment.  On a scale so MASSIVE, it's like blowing up Mt Rushmore on live TV or something.

Verizon:  Hello, gov't relations dept, how may I help you?
Gov't:  Hi, give me your customer records
Verizon:  Ok, on which individual --
Gov't (In a screaming German accent):  All of them!!!  Now!!!


It's beyond comprehension to me.  I'm having a hard time believing it.  I'm sure it's true.

Hope he is better treated than the more recent whistleblowers were.  No need for more martyrs in the name of free speech and transparency.  

I just feel like everything is fake.  But, if it's real... if this really happened and if this is the guy -- he's like Paul F-cking Revere.

His treatment?  Who knows.  You know the Gov't will come after him.  We The People will need to decide his fate.  The problem is:  can "We The People" still have a voice?  Do we have the balls for what that means!?  Recently, when "We The People" got together to fight Big Brother -- they were destroyed.  In classic Saul Alinsky fashion...

1) Isolate - Lump them together as one entity:  "Tea Partiers."  Done.
2) Marginalize - Vilified as racists, extremist, crack-pots.  Done.

It's simple to do, and it seems to work.  So... we'll see.

[filledeplage]

Full-blown, textbook case of Unlawful Searches and Seizures.  Blatant.  Nobody (and I mean NOBODY) can make a case that this isn't a giant F-you to the 4th Amendment.  On a scale so MASSIVE, it's like blowing up Mt Rushmore on live TV or something.

Verizon:  Hello, gov't relations dept, how may I help you?
Gov't:  Hi, give me your customer records
Verizon:  Ok, on which individual --
Gov't (In a screaming German accent):  All of them!!!  Now!!!

It's beyond comprehension to me.  I'm having a hard time believing it.  I'm sure it's true.

Hope he is better treated than the more recent whistleblowers were.  No need for more martyrs in the name of free speech and transparency.  

I just feel like everything is fake.  But, if it's real... if this really happened and if this is the guy -- he's like Paul F-cking Revere.

His treatment?  Who knows.  You know the Gov't will come after him.  We The People will need to decide his fate.  The problem is:  can "We The People" still have a voice?  Do we have the balls for what that means!?  Recently, when "We The People" got together to fight Big Brother -- they were destroyed.  In classic Saul Alinsky fashion...

1) Isolate - Lump them together as one entity:  "Tea Partiers."  Done.
2) Marginalize - Vilified as racists, extremist, crack-pots.  Done.

It's simple to do, and it seems to work.  So... we'll see.

Bean Bag - more details are emerging. The guy seems to have fewer credentials than earlier reported.  It is bad enough when the govt. takes your privacy, but in my view, dumb on the citizenry end, "to tweet, Facebook your location, and rely on the "cloud" rather than the more discrete hard drive in your own possession.  It seems the Patriot Act was promulgated for the right reasons, but too much leeway has been taken by the govt., under the umbrella of national security. 

People can be responsive and responsible. Your wallet sends the biggest message.  For example, the TV "cable cutters" have changed the industry.  It can be done.  Go Roku!  The "pen is mightier than the sword." (SDT!)

The smart people in Scandinavia now have HBO as a stand alone internet subscription.  HBO Nordic; online.   No cable, no satellite dish.  Small steps with big results.

People get sloppy and let someone else speak, and lose their own voice.  At least the Smiley people here, speak up!   

[Bean Bag]

What have you heard?
Seriously, this story is just weird.  Right?  It's crazy.  Too perfect.  Too Hollywood.  Could be a ruse.  Frankly, I don't know -- not sure I care (??)   

Regardless, the NSA thing is just plain nuts.  Wide nets.  Monitoring EVERYTHING.  EVERYONE.  I feel like I'm in the matrix.  And I've never seen the matrix, cuz it looked stupid, just like this! 

[Jason]

Surprised our socialist friends haven't made themselves known here...unless believing in a right to privacy somehow makes us members of "the extreme right".

[Mendota Heights]

Surprised our socialist friends haven't made themselves known here...unless believing in a right to privacy somehow makes us members of "the extreme right".

Only intolerant people advocate privacy. Maybe it should be called hate-privacy from now on, we've already got hate-speech.

[guitarfool2002]

Bill Maher indirectly spilled the beans and may have answered the question: This seems to be more about who is in power when it's being done than what's actually being done, relative to the level of outrage versus the calls to "remain calm, there's nothing here".

And that is scary.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Surprised our socialist friends haven't made themselves known here...unless believing in a right to privacy somehow makes us members of "the extreme right".

For the same reason why I believe you haven't engaged with the lengthy discussion on the history of free markets and capitalism thread that I started.

[Mendota Heights]

Surprised our socialist friends haven't made themselves known here...unless believing in a right to privacy somehow makes us members of "the extreme right".

For the same reason why I believe you haven't engaged with the lengthy discussion on the history of free markets and capitalism thread that I started.

I think about 0.00000000000001 of all Smiley Smilers read your way too long OP. Make it shorter next time.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Surprised our socialist friends haven't made themselves known here...unless believing in a right to privacy somehow makes us members of "the extreme right".

For the same reason why I believe you haven't engaged with the lengthy discussion on the history of free markets and capitalism thread that I started.

I think about 0.00000000000001 of all Smiley Smilers read your way too long OP. Make it shorter next time.

That's quite insulting.... I read each and every word RockNRoll contributes and I read each and every brief sentence Bean Bag offers, and I look at his silly pictures... I even read each and every word of Dr. John Becker's rant: several times before responding.... I think I represent most of us in that.

[Mahalo]

Any socialists want to give me 130$$?? It's, uh... for a good cause. 

[Mendota Heights]

Any socialists want to give me 130$$?? It's, uh... for a good cause.  

They won't give you their own money. They only like to spend other people's money.

[Mahalo]

Exactly--- How many rich liberals write checks payable to Uncle Sam--- skip the taxes, if you want bigger gov't just send them your money... or better yet.... not so rich liberals who nickel and dime for every tax deduction possible. Why not just give them your money??

My days of saying it's a Repub or Demo thing are done. I'm so pissed at the Repub party for selling out it kills me.

[filledeplage]

What have you heard?
Seriously, this story is just weird.  Right?  It's crazy.  Too perfect.  Too Hollywood.  Could be a ruse.  Frankly, I don't know -- not sure I care (??)    

Regardless, the NSA thing is just plain nuts.  Wide nets.  Monitoring EVERYTHING.  EVERYONE.  I feel like I'm in the matrix.  And I've never seen the matrix, cuz it looked stupid, just like this!  

ACLU - American Civil Liberties Union filed suit today. Lots of back pedaling going on with lawmakers calling it "metadata" calls coming and going and not "content" or the conversation.  The complaint alleges that the surveillance carried out under section 215 infringes upon First Amendment rights including the twin rights of "free expression and free association."

Stay tuned - this is big.    

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Any socialists want to give me 130$$?? It's, uh... for a good cause.  

They won't give you their own money. They only like to spend other people's money.

No.... Most "liberals" just pay their taxes like everyone else....

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Surprised our socialist friends haven't made themselves known here...unless believing in a right to privacy somehow makes us members of "the extreme right".

For the same reason why I believe you haven't engaged with the lengthy discussion on the history of free markets and capitalism thread that I started.

I think about 0.00000000000001 of all Smiley Smilers read your way too long OP. Make it shorter next time.

I can understand this but this is exactly my point. The influence of both the mainstream media which relies on a structure of concision and also new media like the internet has had a very negative impact on political discourse. When you privilege brevity what ends up happening is that people end up with a very narrow perspective on complex issues that require historical background and ample evidence in order to be understood in any real way. So what happens is that people begin to take all sorts of positions without knowing really what those positions are, or what the consequences of those positions are. The fact is that real, serious political positions require lots of information, which is why in the age of the internet "capitalism is good" or "government is inherently bad" will inevitable sound better than far more legitimate political positions because those legitimate political positions cannot be reduced to a sound byte in any real way. But people have been conditioned to privilege an unnuanced discussion over a nuanced discussion since a nuance discussion might actually produce results, and such a view would ultimately be quite harmful to the central power structure. This is why I have a hard time contributed to most of the political threads here, since most of the posts require another post a mile long to explain how the original post is borne out of false assumptions about the way the world works and then when I try to do that I get criticized for not staying on topic.

So that's why my answer was what it was. The reason why I'm not "chiming in here" is the same reason you haven't engaged with the lengthy discussion on the history of free markets and capitalism thread that I started. Namely, you (and not only you) are quite simply unprepared to actually engage with the real issues nor are you prepared to accept why you engage with the issues you engage with.

[Mendota Heights]

I can understand this but this is exactly my point. The influence of both the mainstream media which relies on a structure of concision and also new media like the internet has had a very negative impact on political discourse. When you privilege brevity what ends up happening is that people end up with a very narrow perspective on complex issues that require historical background and ample evidence in order to be understood in any real way. So what happens is that people begin to take all sorts of positions without knowing really what those positions are, or what the consequences of those positions are. The fact is that real, serious political positions require lots of information, which is why in the age of the internet "capitalism is good" or "government is inherently bad" will inevitable sound better than far more legitimate political positions because those legitimate political positions cannot be reduced to a sound byte in any real way. But people have been conditioned to privilege an unnuanced discussion over a nuanced discussion since a nuance discussion might actually produce results, and such a view would ultimately be quite harmful to the central power structure. This is why I have a hard time contributed to most of the political threads here, since most of the posts require another post a mile long to explain how the original post is borne out of false assumptions about the way the world works and then when I try to do that I get criticized for not staying on topic.

So that's why my answer was what it was. The reason why I'm not "chiming in here" is the same reason you haven't engaged with the lengthy discussion on the history of free markets and capitalism thread that I started. Namely, you (and not only you) are quite simply unprepared to actually engage with the real issues nor are you prepared to accept why you engage with the issues you engage with.

My "Capitalism is good" line was 100 % tongue-in-cheek. You wrote a long original post and my response was short with no facts to back up my claim.

Even though I like debating people right now I do not really feel like it, so I won't write lengthy replies. If you want to know where I stand please read Rothbard and other Austrians. I can of course rehash their arguments and post them here when debating you, but what would the point of that be?

I wouldn't say "new media" has had a negative impact on people's political understanding, to the contrary it has made more people aware of the monetary system, financial power structures, corruption, anti-"terror" agendas and corporatism. New media highlights the fact "democracy" is just an illusion power elites use to control our societies. Nobody talked about the Fed and debt-based currency systems 15 years ago for example. Now it is out in the open.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I wouldn't say "new media" has had a negative impact on people's political understanding, to the contrary it has made more people aware of the monetary system, financial power structures, corruption, anti-"terror" agendas and corporatism. New media highlights the fact "democracy" is just an illusion power elites use to control our societies. Nobody talked about the Fed and debt-based currency systems 15 years ago for example. Now it is out in the open.

This is what I mean when I say that new media has had a negative impact on people's understanding. That people think that "the Fed and debt-based currency systems" and "democracy" represent the real problems that people are facing (and people genuinely do believe this) is a consequence of the misleading unnuanced uncritical and poorly sourced information that floats around and clogs up the internet.

[Bean Bag]

Oh boy... here we go again with the Politickin'.  You guys made me do this!!

Any socialists want to give me 130$$?? It's, uh... for a good cause.  

They won't give you their own money. They only like to spend other people's money.

No.... Most "liberals" just pay their taxes like everyone else....

Well, yes, YOU DO -- you pay taxes.  But Swedish Frog is actually right.  Here's why. (Without pictures!) there's 3 types of "liberals" (there's 3 of anything, don't you know!)

#1 Them.
The Ruling Class.  The "elitist."  The ones who "steal" your money (taxes) AND get credit for being charitable with it, as they pass it (very little of it) to Group #3.

#2 You.
The bumper sticker liberals.  The tax paying liberal.  The one's we all know and love.  The whole enchilada.  The host with the most!  (And just cuz you're #2 on this list, don't think you're "close" to #1.  You ain't.  They laugh at you.  And not how I laugh at you.   )

#3 The Mystery Box.
The expendables. The permanent underclass (as they see it... not me).  The "low Information voters."  Bused in on election day (and in some places, like Chicago, this includes the deceased!).  Soon to include the amnestied as well.


UNDERSTAND THIS:  The goal of the Democrat party is to put YOU (and as many as they can) into the Mystery Box, Pinder.  For reals. Once they got you there... it's bye-bye Group #2 -- and they are royalty for life.

I think I'm right about this.  All joking aside.  #3 don't pay taxes.  #1 might, but c'mon! -- they just steal it back.  And YOU?  Well... welcome to the club! Have a seat! You're the target.  I'm the target.  You, me and everyone on this board -- targets.  Regardless of our "political banter" -- we're the target.  We're the whole game.  It's all about us.

The game is to squeeze us out.  Bottom up/Top down.  #1 knows we outnumber them, so they want us "middle class trash" (with our SUVs, incandescent light bulbs and affordable healthcare) -- out of the game and lost forever in group #3.  So they're taking our money, our jobs, our future -- and our common sense -- away.  They send just enough stolen loot (aka "bread crumbs") down to #3 to make them thirsty.  And here's bottom up part... they tell the #3 folks to HATE YOU and ME for not giving up more.  For holding them back.  We're greedy!!  Bottom Up.  

That's the game.  Squeeze us out.  We should actually join forces and put #1 permanently out of business.  But... no.  That's not gonna happen, is it?  They keep you "educated."  They keep you and me divided.  Racial, gender, skin-color, orientation, geography, whatever.  Just stay divided.  

[Mendota Heights]

I wouldn't say "new media" has had a negative impact on people's political understanding, to the contrary it has made more people aware of the monetary system, financial power structures, corruption, anti-"terror" agendas and corporatism. New media highlights the fact "democracy" is just an illusion power elites use to control our societies. Nobody talked about the Fed and debt-based currency systems 15 years ago for example. Now it is out in the open.

This is what I mean when I say that new media has had a negative impact on people's understanding. That people think that "the Fed and debt-based currency systems" and "democracy" represent the real problems that people are facing (and people genuinely do believe this) is a consequence of the misleading unnuanced uncritical and poorly sourced information that floats around and clogs up the internet.

And what are the real problems according to you?