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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2013, 04:48:18 PM »

Actually I consider that a damn solid point

My point about "educated" was, people with advanced degrees or even a degree who would never consider working an industrial or retail or food service job.... Of course being from  rich families usually  has a lot to do with this.... I'm talking about all the lawyers and computer tech people we produce here in this country.... I didn't mean "smart" by any stretch of the word.

I guess I'm missing what your definition of educated has to do with my initial point.

I was kind of just making my own point, I guess
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« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2013, 04:50:56 PM »

Okay, my bad for misunderstanding. You did raise a good point.
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The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
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« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2013, 04:52:45 PM »

Thank you. I'm not sure I even know what my point was, so that means a lot Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2013, 04:59:44 PM »

Actually I consider that a damn solid point

My point about "educated" was, people with advanced degrees or even a degree who would never consider working an industrial or retail or food service job.... Of course being from  rich families usually  has a lot to do with this.... I'm talking about all the lawyers and computer tech people we produce here in this country.... I didn't mean "smart" by any stretch of the word.

Lots of people I know with degrees work in shops and pubs. No-one I know thinks they're above anything, they just want to work.... I mean, just as part of the phenomenon you're trying (erroneously?) to describe, I should probably chip in on that one.
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All roads lead to Kokomo. Exhaustive research in time travel has conclusively proven that there is no alternate universe WITHOUT Kokomo. It would've happened regardless.
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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2013, 05:05:32 PM »

Oh, I know! I used to work at a Borders where I had wonderful, brilliant co-workers, some with masters degrees and above, but they all ended up moving on because you simply can't make a living (for long as the cost of living goes up and up) working such jobs, but other co-workers without those degrees tended to stay put.
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« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2013, 05:16:36 PM »

Such is life, I suppose.
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« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2013, 05:22:56 PM »

Yeah, and that sucks.... I think the people working at Borders and propping up these billionaire CEOs should be paid a wage that keeps up (at least) with the cost of living etc.... Then again Border is gone now, and in a large part, because of their shift in focus away from customer service and their whittling down of staff and hours in order to avoid paying benefits.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2013, 05:31:01 PM »

exactly...

I might be naive, but I see protesting such companies as pointless, because all we have to do (as free market consumers) is stop buying said companies products and they would go belly-up. End of story.

This isn't the case, unfortunately. We're talking about institutional power here. I applaud anyone who makes conscious consumer choices but it is simply impossible to affect anything that way. This is simply a historical truth. One can only change institutional power by mobilizing activist community groups or becoming part of a joined effort to challenge it. Let's not forget that institutionalized power has an enormous support system, which includes, above all else the very economic infrastructure of the nation. One person choosing to buy or not buy something has a positive side, certainly. The positive side is that we should all play an active role in independently deciding for ourselves what we should purchase based on a fairly strong value system. The negative side is that these actions can be ultimately strictly self-congratulatory since they have zero effect on the institution. The other negative aspect is they can give one the illusion that they are affecting real change which works to prevent people from taking real steps that could affect genuine change. This is why the Occupy movement has always been of crucial importance.
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2013, 05:38:35 PM »

I've always wondered what would happen if, say, somehow we all united in America and everyone stopped going to McDonalds... Insane thing to imagine, but if it DID happen, I can hardly see McDonalds just laying down and dying.... What steps would they take to reverse this and how far would they go? Could they somehow manage it that we ended up with no choice but to support their corporation?
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« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2013, 05:42:45 PM »

I've always wondered what would happen if, say, somehow we all united in America and everyone stopped going to McDonalds... Insane thing to imagine, but if it DID happen, I can hardly see McDonalds just laying down and dying.... What steps would they take to reverse this and how far would they go? Could they somehow manage it that we ended up with no choice but to support their corporation?

Well, in this case, they would have a difficult time surviving for sure. I don't necessarily think we're living in 1984-times and that we are stuck with the corporation forever. If I did, I would be quite seriously depressed. However, what's difficult is getting to this point that you mention - where we are all united. Actually, I think the most important step would be for McDonalds to be run entirely by the people, not by a corporate structure. Once that occurs, the incentives to keep poisoning the public will disappear.
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« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2013, 05:59:06 PM »

I've always wondered what would happen if, say, somehow we all united in America and everyone stopped going to McDonalds... Insane thing to imagine, but if it DID happen, I can hardly see McDonalds just laying down and dying.... What steps would they take to reverse this and how far would they go? Could they somehow manage it that we ended up with no choice but to support their corporation?

Well, in this case, they would have a difficult time surviving for sure. I don't necessarily think we're living in 1984-times and that we are stuck with the corporation forever. If I did, I would be quite seriously depressed. However, what's difficult is getting to this point that you mention - where we are all united. Actually, I think the most important step would be for McDonalds to be run entirely by the people, not by a corporate structure. Once that occurs, the incentives to keep poisoning the public will disappear.

How do you get to this point where McDees is completely run by the people? We're so engrained in this society of Capitalism(Corporatism?), and no one wants to give it up...people are too uneducated, too unaware, too lazy (including me) - as in: I see the problem, but the solution is so far beyond a concept of conventional thought that it just seems impossible to accomplish...And most people would say: I'm somewhat happy, I've got my health, etc, why bother with changing the system?
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Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
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« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2013, 06:00:58 PM »

Its a really nice thought, as corporations are basically running/ruining America, but I can't see that ever happening
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« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2013, 06:05:48 PM »

I've always wondered what would happen if, say, somehow we all united in America and everyone stopped going to McDonalds... Insane thing to imagine, but if it DID happen, I can hardly see McDonalds just laying down and dying.... What steps would they take to reverse this and how far would they go? Could they somehow manage it that we ended up with no choice but to support their corporation?

Well, in this case, they would have a difficult time surviving for sure. I don't necessarily think we're living in 1984-times and that we are stuck with the corporation forever. If I did, I would be quite seriously depressed. However, what's difficult is getting to this point that you mention - where we are all united. Actually, I think the most important step would be for McDonalds to be run entirely by the people, not by a corporate structure. Once that occurs, the incentives to keep poisoning the public will disappear.

How do you get to this point where McDees is completely run by the people? We're so engrained in this society of Capitalism(Corporatism?), and no one wants to give it up...people are too uneducated, too unaware, too lazy (including me) - as in: I see the problem, but the solution is so far beyond a concept of conventional thought that it just seems impossible to accomplish...And most people would say: I'm somewhat happy, I've got my health, etc, why bother with changing the system?

Well, I think that communication would play a crucial role. My hunch is that if you told someone that they could have control over the work that they do rather than be simply wage slaves then they would more than likely believe that to be a good idea. However, you face two problems. When institutional power controls most information and knowledge, you automatically sound crazy since what you're talking about flatly goes up against what is accepted as truth and reality. The other problem is communicating this information in a way that people understand it. I'm not saying that they are incapable of intellectual thought - rather, different people have different concerns and the real problem with the activist community is not understanding how to talk to people on their own terms.
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« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2013, 06:09:47 PM »

Its a really nice thought, as corporations are basically running/ruining America, but I can't see that ever happening

It's worked plenty of times both within and outside of the United States: the anarchist collectives in the Second Spanish Republic, the Italian factory occupations, the Argentina take overs, worker-run enterprises based on the Cleveland model, the kibuttz organizations in Israel, etc.
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2013, 06:15:03 PM »

Its a really nice thought, as corporations are basically running/ruining America, but I can't see that ever happening

It's worked plenty of times both within and outside of the United States: the anarchist collectives in the Second Spanish Republic, the Italian factory occupations, the Argentina take overs, worker-run enterprises based on the Cleveland model, the kibuttz organizations in Israel, etc.

Easier said than done when these very same corporations have somehow convinced a large number of us that not only is it OK to get by with this "I got mine and there's nothing that can be done" mentality, but have also convinced us that an  "I got mine"  mentality is strong and patriotic but  "And don't you dare put a penny of it toward making things better or helping anyone else"  just completes the thought....... and that health care is a commodity to be denied.... Everyone screams about their rights in a country where no one has the right to damn thing.
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« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2013, 06:23:34 PM »

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rather, different people have different concerns and the real problem with the activist community is not understanding how to talk to people on their own terms.

EXACTLY.
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« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2013, 06:26:18 PM »

Its a really nice thought, as corporations are basically running/ruining America, but I can't see that ever happening

It's worked plenty of times both within and outside of the United States: the anarchist collectives in the Second Spanish Republic, the Italian factory occupations, the Argentina take overs, worker-run enterprises based on the Cleveland model, the kibuttz organizations in Israel, etc.

Easier said than done when these very same corporations have somehow convinced a large number of us that not only is it OK to get by with this "I got mine and there's nothing that can be done" mentality, but have also convinced us that an  "I got mine"  mentality is strong and patriotic but  "And don't you dare put a penny of it toward making things better or helping anyone else"  just completes the thought....... and that health care is a commodity to be denied.... Everyone screams about their rights in a country where no one has the right to damn thing.

I absolutely agree. The thing that people who want change have to realize too is that these are long term goals. They don't happen overnight. They happen after long periods of communication, and community-building, and discussion, and so forth. These kinds of changes takes years -- decades. It's a long haul. This is why something like faux-libertarianism is so popular in the United States - it substitutes these very challenging actions that require getting your hands dirty with intellectual games and self-aggrandizing rhetorical tricks.
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« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2013, 06:37:25 PM »

Its a really nice thought, as corporations are basically running/ruining America, but I can't see that ever happening

It's worked plenty of times both within and outside of the United States: the anarchist collectives in the Second Spanish Republic, the Italian factory occupations, the Argentina take overs, worker-run enterprises based on the Cleveland model, the kibuttz organizations in Israel, etc.

Easier said than done when these very same corporations have somehow convinced a large number of us that not only is it OK to get by with this "I got mine and there's nothing that can be done" mentality, but have also convinced us that an  "I got mine"  mentality is strong and patriotic but  "And don't you dare put a penny of it toward making things better or helping anyone else"  just completes the thought....... and that health care is a commodity to be denied.... Everyone screams about their rights in a country where no one has the right to damn thing.

I absolutely agree. The thing that people who want change have to realize too is that these are long term goals. They don't happen overnight. They happen after long periods of communication, and community-building, and discussion, and so forth. These kinds of changes takes years -- decades. It's a long haul. This is why something like faux-libertarianism is so popular in the United States - it substitutes these very challenging actions that require getting your hands dirty with intellectual games and self-aggrandizing rhetorical tricks.

Great post(s)

Is there any good literature on this topic that you'd recommend? Preferably, literature that addresses these issues in layman's terms?
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Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
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« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2013, 06:43:13 PM »

Great post(s)

Is there any good literature on this topic that you'd recommend? Preferably, literature that addresses these issues in layman's terms?

Yep. There's lots of stuff but the first one to spring to mind is Gar Alperovitz’s book, America Beyond Capitalism. Here's a Google Books version which I hope you can access:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=AhnnzvPqWHEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Gar+Alperovitz+America+Beyond+Capitalism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7HEtUeCXM7Pp0QGg4IDgCQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=youngstown&f=false

Begin with the Preface to the First Edition and the stuff on Youngstown. The important stuff is written in very plain language.
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« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2013, 06:45:22 PM »

People's History Of The United States is a good one too, even though people bash Zinn for being, gulp, a liberal.....

"It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclare Lewis might not fit the bill completely but I still recommend it
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« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2013, 06:47:26 PM »

People's History is a great book.
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« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2013, 06:48:58 PM »

Thanks guys! Will check those out. The googlebooks America Beyond Capitalism works, will start reading that tonight.
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The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
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« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2013, 04:17:06 AM »

Hi all,

Interesting topic.  I know next to nothing about what goes on at a personal level in the US.  I do know that protesting can make positive impacts.  I have done a lot of protesting, mainly about stopping gas companies pillaging indigenous lands and animal welfare situations here in Aus and Asia. People generally want to do the right thing, but they have to know about it first and know alternatives etc, that's what protesting can do. In regards to buying practices being effective; I can use the example of cage versus free range eggs here in Aus.  Once people started to make a fuss about buying free range, the government passed that eggs had to be labelled cage or free range.  Of course most people started buying free range, even though they are more expensive, and the cage eggs were just left on the shelves.  Because of this Woolworths who are one of the two big grocery chains here has declared that they will ONLY sell free range eggs and have since moved on to meat and fish (no sow cages etc).  So I think it's a bit of both.  I am at university now studying animal rights law because I hope to make a difference at the legislation level. 
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« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2013, 05:20:15 AM »

Or maybe it's a good thing.... Smarter people doing such jobs will only increase the quality of those jobs therefore forcing up up-kick in wages for such jobs? Or am I just dreaming. Then again, just about every single job conceivable requires intelligence.... If even just to navigate all the managerial subterfuge.
Yeah, you're dreaming. Smiley

The (disappearing) middle class serving coffee is not a good sign or development, the middle class should produce more advanced goods and services than that. The reason why "middle classers" now serve coffee and wait tables is because no other jobs are available to them (for whatever reason, I am not getting into that).

Many of the middle class jobs are gone. This will not lead to higher wages, but lower overall wages. A cafe can only make so much money, a multinational affluent company like IKEA can afford to pay their workers higher wages than a local cafe. Export companies (traditionally the manufacturing industry) used to be the backbone of western societies and they are vital because they create an influx of currency into a country and that currency is then used to obtain/import wealth (goods and services that make people's life better, but are being produced abroad). Cafes generally don't export anything and the country therefor has less currency to obtain/import wealth --> the country is therefor gradually morphed into a third world type of society.

When it comes to protesting Wild-Honey made an excellent point. Protesting can make a difference if enough people are in on it and if consumers can choose between "bad/evil" products and "good" products.

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« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2013, 09:10:18 AM »

When it comes to protesting Wild-Honey made an excellent point. Protesting can make a difference if enough people are in on it and if consumers can choose between "bad/evil" products and "good" products.

I agree to an extent but simply seeing your options as merely choosing between good and bad products is in itself a consequence of institutionalized power. The point should not be choose between options that are being given to you, since that can only reinforce institutional power, but rather to take control of the industry in a united way. But making wise consumer decisions is a step in the right direction - however, it is important to recognize that it is only a step, and really a first step if anything.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 09:16:57 AM by rockandroll » Logged
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