Rank the tracks #21: Love You

[I. Spaceman]

That's a good summary of the position I was noting before: those who see the band as a collection of individual talents, with Brian just slightly above the others. I think that's crazy talk, and so would every member of the actual group. But, horses for courses, I guess. I prefer my Brian Wilson "straight". (That's for you, Andrew)

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Oh, I would say Brian is way more than just slightly above the others, but as I've always said..the 'least' talented Beach Boy is miles ahead of the most talented member of most bands (and if I let my bias show a little, any other band)

[Sheriff John Stone]

Just wanted to add a couple of opinions without singling out any above, specific posts/posters....

In my opinion, I don't view Brian's gradual withdrawal from The Beach Boys as a conscious, thought-out decision. I view it it as a reaction, an involuntary reaction, to his increasing drug intake and mental illness. He didn't just withdraw from The Beach Boys, he withdrew from a lot of his LIFE.

I don't know if I would categorize Dennis's absence from Surf's Up as getting caught up in group politics. If what I've read on this board in the past is correct, It was a matter of song placement or song sequencing, not politics. Carl suggested one thing, Dennis didn't agree, and took his ball and went home.

Also, I believe for a time, albeit a limited time, Brian did want to return to The Beach Boys to produce 15 Big Ones. Yeah, Landy and the guys and money played a part, but for a few short months in early 1976, Brian did some good work. I mean, just listen to those tracks on 15 Big Ones. They're awesome!

[I. Spaceman]

Oh, I would say Brian is way more than just slightly above the others, but as I've always said..the 'least' talented Beach Boy is miles ahead of the most talented member of most bands (and if I let my bias show a little, any other band)

I agree, and I don't want to make it seem like Dennis and Carl's material isn't great. I'd say the same stuff if Brian joined The Beatles.

[Dave Modny]

That's a good summary of the position I was noting before: those who see the band as a collection of individual talents, with Brian just slightly above the others. I think that's crazy talk, and so would every member of the actual group. But, horses for courses, I guess. I prefer my Brian Wilson "straight". (That's for you, Andrew)

Whoa...wait a second. I never said or implied that Brian is "just slightly above the others." I said that I come to the table as a fan who values the sum more than the parts, and who prefers to judge each work individually. And though I obviously have "parts preferences," they're not without exception. Just like you may like an Al Jardine workup like Lady Lynda, but conversely, don't like Rock 'N' Roll Music or He Come Down -- the latter two both with quite a bit of BW involvement (as you already know). Obviously, that doesn't mean you're devaluing Brian's abilities or merit in relation to AJ's. It's a choice-by-choice decision, and in the case of LY, I choose to judge it the same way. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[MBE]

We aren't talking about music history, the group got along with Brian and he with them for the most part during the late sixties. It wasn't this stealing the band thing. Brian again was unqiue, but even Pet Sounds wouldn't be what it is with the voices of the rest of the group. I never have seen Love You held up to Pet Sounds even once except this post.

I wasn't holding Love You up to Pet Sounds, or comparing them in any way. With that type of comprehension, I'm surprised you are an author.

Hostile! Me. I just don't like the thing as a whole. To say I love Brian any less because I also love the others is ridiculous. Frankly my book is for people living in the real world. By the way I completely respect your view on the album, but you as a person are unpleasent.

[I. Spaceman]

Frankly my book is for people living in the real world. 

Sure, man. Everyone needs toilet paper in the real world. Frankly. And there are two a's in the word "unpleasant". And I wasn't saying you, or anyone, like Brian less because you like the others. I was saying, you, and others, seem to dig the others in the band about as much on a compositional/production level, for better, for worse, for whatever. Again, comprehension, with all respect.

Mr. Modny up above, you are a well-spoken and nice guy, and I dig what you're saying.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Frankly my book is for people living in the real world. 

Sure, man. Everyone needs toilet paper in the real world. Frankly.

Frankly , that was uncalled for. You seriously need to stop attacking people that don't agree with you. I like you and I hate to say this but this is your final warning.

And for the record , I helped work on Mike's book and it happens to be excellent. There was no reason for you to say what you said as you have not read it other than to try to upset him. Not cool.

[MBE]

See that's what it is, some people have no regard behind the keyboard. I am a real person with real feelings and this is my job. I happen to know a lot about the 1967-75 era because I asked the right people the right questions. If a Brian Wilson who is very on tells you about what he liked in the late sixties about the group, you are going to trust that. When you have a dozen people backing you up on the era, then it becomes something you can deduce as fact. Myths die hard, truth is often more complex.

If somebody thinks Love You is the best LP of all time, more power to them. If someone likes it better than Pet Sounds great. I just don't like when people take a differing opinion and make it personal. I have worked nearly twenty years to make this a great book, I have been in the business for twenty years as I was first published at 15. Don't like my viewpoint, cool. Attack my career and you go over the line. You write anything people are going to get different things from it. I deduced something from a post and was attacked because they meant it another way. I am not a hostile person, but I must defend myself if someone gets personal.

I wouldn't expect if I misunderstood someone in real life they would attack my work. I was snippy back but I had a clear right to be. I treat it like I would real life. I am not going to start anything, but if someone is rude they will get a taste of it back. 

[Mike's Beard]

Would the band and record label have ever allowed Love You to come out sounding like it did if 15 Big Ones hadn't been a hit?

[Nicko1234]

Some people certainly do see themselves as tough guys from behind their keyboards but back on topic...

Ther are some fine songs on Love You but also some terrible vocals and lyrics. A healthy Brian wouldn't have recorded the songs in that way and a healthy group wouldn't have agreed to release the album. Listening to the album is uncomfortable because it is obviously listening to the work of a troubled, mentally ill man.

Some people (I'm not suggesting the people who've posted in this thread) enjoy that aspect of Brian's career though. the mental health problems are more important than the music to some...

[MBE]

 Nicko1234 I think you sumed up the flaws in the period well.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

We aren't talking about music history, the group got along with Brian and he with them for the most part during the late sixties. It wasn't this stealing the band thing. Brian again was unqiue, but even Pet Sounds wouldn't be what it is with the voices of the rest of the group. I never have seen Love You held up to Pet Sounds even once except this post.

I wasn't holding Love You up to Pet Sounds, or comparing them in any way. With that type of comprehension, I'm surprised you are an author.

I am. Love You is at least as good as Pet Sounds, and maybe better than it.

Andrew, all the times you've disagreed with me and peed me off have just evaporated into the ethos. Top man!

Some people certainly do see themselves as tough guys from behind their keyboards but back on topic...

Ther are some fine songs on Love You but also some terrible vocals and lyrics. A healthy Brian wouldn't have recorded the songs in that way and a healthy group wouldn't have agreed to release the album. Listening to the album is uncomfortable because it is obviously listening to the work of a troubled, mentally ill man.

Some people (I'm not suggesting the people who've posted in this thread) enjoy that aspect of Brian's career though. the mental health problems are more important than the music to some...

I think you're very much suggesting the people on this thread!

I love the lyrics on Love You. Completely unpretentiousness and honest, not to mention funny. Do you think these are a product of mental illness? I hear them more as a product of a man's bizarre sense of humour which connects well with my own. I love this album because I relate to it. And regarding the bad singing, I can hear past that. The arrangements are great, easily up there with his best work. This is why people like the album, not because of some strange kudos in liking music which is a product of mental illness.

I really feel this is Brian's most personal statement, and everything I love about his music is here in spades. I first heard it aged 16, knowing nothing about it, and bringing no preconceptions with me. It was immediately up there with Friends, Surfer Girl and Smiley Smile as one of my favourite Beach Boys albums. I really hate this insinuation that people only like this album because it's cool to say you like it.

[AndrewHickey]

I wasn't holding Love You up to Pet Sounds, or comparing them in any way. With that type of comprehension, I'm surprised you are an author.

I am. Love You is at least as good as Pet Sounds, and maybe better than it.

Andrew, all the times you've disagreed with me and peed me off have just evaporated into the ethos. Top man!

Thanks -- I hope you realise that from my side at least, no disagreements I've had on this board have been personal. They've all just been disagreements.

I love the lyrics on Love You. Completely unpretentiousness and honest, not to mention funny. Do you think these are a product of mental illness? I hear them more as a product of a man's bizarre sense of humour which connects well with my own. I love this album because I relate to it. And regarding the bad singing, I can hear past that. The arrangements are great, easily up there with his best work. This is why people like the album, not because of some strange kudos in liking music which is a product of mental illness.

I really feel this is Brian's most personal statement, and everything I love about his music is here in spades. I first heard it aged 16, knowing nothing about it, and bringing no preconceptions with me. It was immediately up there with Friends, Surfer Girl and Smiley Smile as one of my favourite Beach Boys albums. I really hate this insinuation that people only like this album because it's cool to say you like it.

Absolutely agreed with all of this (except the Surfer Girl bit -- I think that's a much weaker album than the other ones). I also don't think the singing is 'bad' -- it's technically bad, certainly, but it communicates emotion far better than a lot of technically better singing does.

The album isn't "a product of mental illness" -- it's a product of *an artist who happened to be living with a mental illness*. Yes, it wouldn't be the same if Brian had been mentally better, but likewise none of his music would have been the same if he'd been able to hear in both ears -- is Pet Sounds "a product of physical disability"?

Just having a mental illness doesn't make one magically able to make music of the quality of Love You -- I worked for several years on a psychiatric ward, and several of the people on that ward fancied themselves musicians, so I can tell you that from personal experience. Conversely, having a mental illness doesn't suddenly remove all talent, intelligence and humour from someone who has those things when they're well.

The narrative that mental illness is in some way romantic or confers mystical talent upon those who have it is definitely a pernicious one that needs to be fought. But just as pernicious is the opposite myth -- that because someone has bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia, or whatever, they instantly become unable to do anything or make any rational decision. People with mental illnesses can be capable of creating great art -- even great art that stems from their illness. Or should we dismiss Van Gogh and William Blake, too?

No, Love You wouldn't be the same album if Brian Wilson hadn't been suffering from a mental illness at the time -- but that's *a good thing*. Not a good thing that he was ill, but a good thing that while ill he was able to create great art. Personally, I think we need more art from people with mental illnesses -- they're marginalised, and their opinions and thoughts more or less ignored or mocked, in this society. One could make a very, *very* good argument that those who dismiss this album are contributing to the ongoing oppression of mentally ill people in our society, and thus making the world a much worse place.

Or maybe they just don't like it, and maybe those of us who like the album just like it for what it is.

[MBE]

Well Brian's problems go back many years before Love You or 15 Big Ones, but for me it's that Brian doesn't seem to be ready quite yet. When I hear the early 1977 recordings I feel a whole different vibe. It's nothing against the mentally ill at all, I want to make that clear. It's that I have issues with Landy and him putting Brian on display the way he did. Many of the songs are just simply not to my taste, but I also feel Brian was not put in the best light.

My outlook is this, Brian had a higher profile in 1976 than for a long time, but I look at it as him no longer having the option to say no. I feel when Brian worked before Landy it was because he wanted to, from 1976 on it's just so hard to know. I think the best music Brian has done since then was inspired from his inner artist, Love You just feels like it has a tossed off quality to it. I feel Brian was saying, "I will work, but I'm not going to take the time I did before". Kind of passive aggressive. Some of the real Brian does come out, but I feel he could do better, and a lot of his 1976 vault recordings are better. "You've Lost That Loving Feeling" for one shows he could still sing and produce with a lot of flair. That's largely missing here.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Why does the "real Brian" need to be about polished productions. To me that is just one of the strings to his bow. Love You sounds perfect to me. How do you know this wasn't the sound he wanted? Maybe you just expect one thing from Brian. To me, his music has never really been about the production, it's about the chords, melody and arrangements, the inner workings, if you like. Love You is so full of what makes him a great and unique musician.

Interesting you use the term "the real Brian" I hear the real Brian all over Love You. Are we both projecting what we think "the real Brian" is onto him. The poor guy's had a lifetime of that.

[Nicko1234]

No, Love You wouldn't be the same album if Brian Wilson hadn't been suffering from a mental illness at the time -- but that's *a good thing*. Not a good thing that he was ill, but a good thing that while ill he was able to create great art. Personally, I think we need more art from people with mental illnesses -- they're marginalised, and their opinions and thoughts more or less ignored or mocked, in this society. One could make a very, *very* good argument that those who dismiss this album are contributing to the ongoing oppression of mentally ill people in our society, and thus making the world a much worse place.

Or maybe they just don't like it, and maybe those of us who like the album just like it for what it is.

There are problems with that theory imo (and Mike Eder has touched on one at least).

The first is that many of the lyrics are awful. How would people react if Mike had written the, 'We'll make sweet lovin'...' lines for example? 'Won't it be groovy?', 'If Mars had life on it', 'Now we can fly...' There really are too many awful lines to mention them all individually. Some of the vocals are abysmal too (eg. Love is a Woman). So it's not like people are saying, 'It's all great but because Brian was nuts I won't listen to it.' Some people are saying, 'Because of Brian's mental health problems some aspects of it are very poor and it sounds half-finished (appropriately because Brian didn't finish it). That certainly isn't an example of prejudice towards the mentally ill.

Another issue, As Mike Eder has said, is that Brian wasn't working with the band entirely through choice at this point. Bruce has stated that Brian would just use the synth to get things over with as quickly as possible at this point and the fact that Carl had to finish it speaks for the fact that Brian wasn't loving it too much in the studio.

Another thing (and this may only be me who feels it) is that The Beach Boys as a group were clearly not healthy by 1977. They wouldn't have released the album if they had been (as Mike and Al both gave Brian heat for it). So Love You can't be judged as a Brian Wilson solo album or as a series of demos because it is a Beach Boys album. One that was unsellable despite Jimmy Saville giving extended airplay to Roller Skating Child (plus Lazy Lizzie and Hey Little Tomboy) on Radio 1 I believe.

One final point about the mental health issue. Til I Die was clearly written and recorded by a guy wrestling with his demons but this was exceptional lyrically, musically and vocally. Plus Brian obviously wanted (or needed) to record it. That's an example of mental illness helping to inspire somebody to great art.

Love is a Woman, to pick an example, is dire vocally and lyrically. This is an example of a great musical talent being willing to release something substandard due to his mental health issues. A very different thing.

[Mike's Beard]

No, Love You wouldn't be the same album if Brian Wilson hadn't been suffering from a mental illness at the time -- but that's *a good thing*. Not a good thing that he was ill, but a good thing that while ill he was able to create great art. Personally, I think we need more art from people with mental illnesses -- they're marginalised, and their opinions and thoughts more or less ignored or mocked, in this society. One could make a very, *very* good argument that those who dismiss this album are contributing to the ongoing oppression of mentally ill people in our society, and thus making the world a much worse place.

Or maybe they just don't like it, and maybe those of us who like the album just like it for what it is.

There are problems with that theory imo (and Mike Eder has touched on one at least).

The first is that many of the lyrics are awful. How would people react if Mike had written the, 'We'll make sweet lovin'...' lines for example? 'Won't it be groovy?', 'If Mars had life on it', 'Now we can fly...' There really are too many awful lines to mention them all individually. Some of the vocals are abysmal too (eg. Love is a Woman). So it's not like people are saying, 'It's all great but because Brian was nuts I won't listen to it.' Some people are saying, 'Because of Brian's mental health problems some aspects of it are very poor and it sounds half-finished (appropriately because Brian didn't finish it). That certainly isn't an example of prejudice towards the mentally ill.

Another issue, As Mike Eder has said, is that Brian wasn't working with the band entirely through choice at this point. Bruce has stated that Brian would just use the synth to get things over with as quickly as possible at this point and the fact that Carl had to finish it speaks for the fact that Brian wasn't loving it too much in the studio.

Another thing (and this may only be me who feels it) is that The Beach Boys as a group were clearly not healthy by 1977. They wouldn't have released the album if they had been (as Mike and Al both gave Brian heat for it). So Love You can't be judged as a Brian Wilson solo album or as a series of demos because it is a Beach Boys album. One that was unsellable despite Jimmy Saville giving extended airplay to Roller Skating Child (plus Lazy Lizzie and Hey Little Tomboy) on Radio 1 I believe.

Hmmmmmmmm, I wonder what it was Sir Jimmy liked about those songs. 

[Iron Horse-Apples]

No, Love You wouldn't be the same album if Brian Wilson hadn't been suffering from a mental illness at the time -- but that's *a good thing*. Not a good thing that he was ill, but a good thing that while ill he was able to create great art. Personally, I think we need more art from people with mental illnesses -- they're marginalised, and their opinions and thoughts more or less ignored or mocked, in this society. One could make a very, *very* good argument that those who dismiss this album are contributing to the ongoing oppression of mentally ill people in our society, and thus making the world a much worse place.

Or maybe they just don't like it, and maybe those of us who like the album just like it for what it is.

There are problems with that theory imo (and Mike Eder has touched on one at least).

The first is that many of the lyrics are awful. How would people react if Mike had written the, 'We'll make sweet lovin'...' lines for example? 'Won't it be groovy?', 'If Mars had life on it', 'Now we can fly...' There really are too many awful lines to mention them all individually. Some of the vocals are abysmal too (eg. Love is a Woman). So it's not like people are saying, 'It's all great but because Brian was nuts I won't listen to it.' Some people are saying, 'Because of Brian's mental health problems some aspects of it are very poor and it sounds half-finished (appropriately because Brian didn't finish it). That certainly isn't an example of prejudice towards the mentally ill.

Another issue, As Mike Eder has said, is that Brian wasn't working with the band entirely through choice at this point. Bruce has stated that Brian would just use the synth to get things over with as quickly as possible at this point and the fact that Carl had to finish it speaks for the fact that Brian wasn't loving it too much in the studio.

Another thing (and this may only be me who feels it) is that The Beach Boys as a group were clearly not healthy by 1977. They wouldn't have released the album if they had been (as Mike and Al both gave Brian heat for it). So Love You can't be judged as a Brian Wilson solo album or as a series of demos because it is a Beach Boys album. One that was unsellable despite Jimmy Saville giving extended airplay to Roller Skating Child (plus Lazy Lizzie and Hey Little Tomboy) on Radio 1 I believe.

One final point about the mental health issue. Til I Die was clearly written and recorded by a guy wrestling with his demons but this was exceptional lyrically, musically and vocally. Plus Brian obviously wanted (or needed) to record it. That's an example of mental illness helping to inspire somebody to great art.

Love is a Woman, to pick an example, is dire vocally and lyrically. This is an example of a great musical talent being willing to release something substandard due to his mental health issues. A very different thing.

All just your opinion. Please don't state these as fact.

Edit, you did put imo, the ultimate disclaimer! apologies. Still don't agree though.

[MBE]

No, Love You wouldn't be the same album if Brian Wilson hadn't been suffering from a mental illness at the time -- but that's *a good thing*. Not a good thing that he was ill, but a good thing that while ill he was able to create great art. Personally, I think we need more art from people with mental illnesses -- they're marginalised, and their opinions and thoughts more or less ignored or mocked, in this society. One could make a very, *very* good argument that those who dismiss this album are contributing to the ongoing oppression of mentally ill people in our society, and thus making the world a much worse place.

Or maybe they just don't like it, and maybe those of us who like the album just like it for what it is.

There are problems with that theory imo (and Mike Eder has touched on one at least).

The first is that many of the lyrics are awful. How would people react if Mike had written the, 'We'll make sweet lovin'...' lines for example? 'Won't it be groovy?', 'If Mars had life on it', 'Now we can fly...' There really are too many awful lines to mention them all individually. Some of the vocals are abysmal too (eg. Love is a Woman). So it's not like people are saying, 'It's all great but because Brian was nuts I won't listen to it.' Some people are saying, 'Because of Brian's mental health problems some aspects of it are very poor and it sounds half-finished (appropriately because Brian didn't finish it). That certainly isn't an example of prejudice towards the mentally ill.

Another issue, As Mike Eder has said, is that Brian wasn't working with the band entirely through choice at this point. Bruce has stated that Brian would just use the synth to get things over with as quickly as possible at this point and the fact that Carl had to finish it speaks for the fact that Brian wasn't loving it too much in the studio.

Another thing (and this may only be me who feels it) is that The Beach Boys as a group were clearly not healthy by 1977. They wouldn't have released the album if they had been (as Mike and Al both gave Brian heat for it). So Love You can't be judged as a Brian Wilson solo album or as a series of demos because it is a Beach Boys album. One that was unsellable despite Jimmy Saville giving extended airplay to Roller Skating Child (plus Lazy Lizzie and Hey Little Tomboy) on Radio 1 I believe.

One final point about the mental health issue. Til I Die was clearly written and recorded by a guy wrestling with his demons but this was exceptional lyrically, musically and vocally. Plus Brian obviously wanted (or needed) to record it. That's an example of mental illness helping to inspire somebody to great art.

Love is a Woman, to pick an example, is dire vocally and lyrically. This is an example of a great musical talent being willing to release something substandard due to his mental health issues. A very different thing.

You got it! That's what I get from it 100 percent. I don't project "the real Brian" but I do know that his work of 1976 didn't happen as organically as before. Landy forced some of these sessions, there's really no question about that if you talk to people who were around then. Subjectively, I don't think Brian wrote, sang, or produced an exceptional batch of unassailable classics. Some great moments mixed in, but not a work I enjoy as a whole.  I don't need polish, I just feel basic quality is lacking.

[I. Spaceman]

Frankly my book is for people living in the real world. 

Sure, man. Everyone needs toilet paper in the real world. Frankly.

Frankly , that was uncalled for. You seriously need to stop attacking people that don't agree with you. I like you and I hate to say this but this is your final warning.

And for the record , I helped work on Mike's book and it happens to be excellent. There was no reason for you to say what you said as you have not read it other than to try to upset him. Not cool.

He insulted me by saying his book was for those people who are in "the real world", as if I am not. I'm not laying down and taking that from anyone. Period.

[I. Spaceman]

Some people certainly do see themselves as tough guys from behind their keyboards

I'm no different in real life, funny man!

[AndrewHickey]

[The first is that many of the lyrics are awful. How would people react if Mike had written the, 'We'll make sweet lovin'...' lines for example? 'Won't it be groovy?', 'If Mars had life on it', 'Now we can fly...' There really are too many awful lines to mention them all individually. Some of the vocals are abysmal too (eg. Love is a Woman). So it's not like people are saying, 'It's all great but because Brian was nuts I won't listen to it.' Some people are saying, 'Because of Brian's mental health problems some aspects of it are very poor and it sounds half-finished (appropriately because Brian didn't finish it). That certainly isn't an example of prejudice towards the mentally ill.

Well, firstly, my whole point was that to say that was the motive behind people disliking it would be *exactly as absurd and offensive a caricature* as the one that says the people who do like it are glorifying mental illness. That said:

I think people would react to those lyrics (at least one of which, "Now we can fly...", *is* a Mike line) the same way they react to "I'm gonna love you every single night because I think that you're doggone outtasight", "When girls get mad at boys and go, many times they're just putting on a show", "crazy woman, can't you see that I'm giving to you, can you dig me?"  and many, many more examples of simplistic, trite lyrics with slightly outdated slang throughout the band's career. If you're listening to the Beach Boys for the lyrics, with very few exceptions you're listening for the wrong reasons.

And personally I find a lyric like The Night Was So Young or Airplane -- or even Honkin' Down The Highway or Mona -- far more effective than the pseudo-mystical hogwash that made up most of the lyrics from Surf's Up through Holland. I love those albums, but I think on every level, something like "'Cause it's a silent night in the sea, and if you're cosmically conscious you'll see / Why she's a princess incarnate to me, daughter of Neptune the ruler of the sea" is worse than "The night was so young, and everything still/the moon shining bright on my windowsill/I think of her lips, it chills me inside/And then I think why does she have to hide?". The second actually communicates an actual human emotion, using concrete words, and manages to have a rhyme scheme that doesn't require rhyming a word with both itself and a homonym. On every level of craft and art, the latter is simply better than the former.

Your other points amount to "Brian wasn't happy at the time" (and? We're talking about the work, not its creator -- though the fact that Brian has several times stated that the album is his favourite suggests he thinks highly of it now. Brian wasn't happy when he wrote Til I Die either) "the other band members weren't happy with it" (and I should trust Mike Love's aesthetic judgement over my own because?) and "it wasn't commercial" (which is no criterion by which to judge art).

[I. Spaceman]

That's a very good post, Andrew.

[SMiLE Brian]

Good point about the lyrics, they were the most honest ones since Pet Sounds. I think the BBs were the best when being themselves.