Any of you audio isolation experts able to isolate the guitars on IKTAA?

[Dunderhead]

You three are the A-team here, you really are.

[guitarfool2002]

It is interesting how little photography of 12-string electrics have turned up.  I mean, there's never enough 60s studio photography for me, but we do have some great photos of Barney with his Tele, Pitman with his Dano, Tedesco with his stuff.  There is the one photo of Tedesco with the Bellzouki, I suppose.  We do know that Jan Berry called for that specific guitar on TAAACSCBRATA, so that could be a clue.  Then there's the photos of the Mosrites I mentioned.  Would somebody have a look at that photo in the wrecking crew thread and see if you agree Billy's playing a Mosrite?

But I've never seen a studio photo of a WC guitarist playing a Fender XII.

I saw the mid-60's Fender hardshell bass case at Billy's feet first! That guitar, though...I can't tell, can't even venture a guess (pun). If the headstock is any indication it could be a Mosrite, I just can't tell.

The Fender XII info is anecdotal/circumstantial. Two of the most famous 12-stringers not named George Harrison: I know Jimmy Page used one on studio sessions and later on his own Led Zep tracks (not the more famous Gibson doubleneck), I know McGuinn had and used the Fender occasionally in the studio despite being known for the Rick 12, and I've heard the Fenders were simply more reliable 12-string electric guitars although a bit more expensive. As far as photo evidence, there is none I can think of - it's all interview and anecdotal stuff.

lotsa people used them. Tim Buckley, Velvet Underground, Dave Davies. The Fender XII doesn't have the traditional 'classic' 12 string sound. It sounds more swirly, almost organ/harpsichord like. To me, it sounds like 'pet sounds', but I don't know if that's just because of the 'light'/direct way in which the guitars were recorded, as opposed to the 'jingle jangle' thing everyone else was doing.

Add to this list Pete Townshend, who despite being associated with Rickenbacker for years actually used a Fender Electric XII for the "Tommy" sessions.  He's pictured in the latest Guitar World magazine playing one, in a more recent photo - It's a vintage Fender too, perhaps even the same one he used in '69 for Tommy but I have no idea.

I'll say it again, the Fender Electric XII is one of the bigger "sleeper" guitars of all time. It didn't have the cache or the hipness associated with the Rickenbacker, it didn't have the quirkiness or pawn shop low-cost coolness of the Danelectro, but I guarantee a lot more classic electric 12-string parts were recorded with a Fender than people might assume. And I'll also say again, it is an easier electric 12 to manage and tune than a Rickenbacker...not to say I wouldn't want a Rickenbacker, but I think the Fender is a more player-friendly guitar that stays in tune.

And more durable, too...note that the Gibson-Epiphone style 12-string electrics favored by Carl were/are prone to neck and headstock cracks and damage, as Carl's indeed were and if you're not Carl Wilson, playing a guitar that has a greater chance of somehow cracking and needing serious repair isn't much of an option...

[c-man]

A few questions, opinions & observations...presented in CAPS for ease of reading, not b/c I'm yelling.  

1. Wouldn't It Be Nice
There is, unusually for the album, a strummed guitar. I've always thought it was some kind of jazz box acoustic. It is there more for texture than any sort of chordal definition. It is probably the closest thing to how a guitar would traditionally be used for such a song.  
DO YOU GUYS THINK THE ACOUSTIC 6-STRING IS A "REGULAR"  DREADNAUGHT, OR THE MUCH LARGER "BOX" GUITAR, OR A SEMI-ELECTRIC ARCHTOP?  ALSO, I ONCE READ SOMEWHERE - I THINK THE GRANATA BOOK - THAT THE INTRO GUITAR IS IN SLACK-KEY TUNING.  ANY THOUGHTS?  I MEAN, IT DOESN'T SOUND VERY HAWAIIAN TO ME.

3. That's Not Me
Here we have the main guitar acting very much as a bassline, and in fact the overdubbed basses do for the most part double the guitar line. Carl's guitar, probably a Strat or his Jaguar is kind of dialed in to a surfy kind of sound, with the treble and reverb. But again, no strumming, no chords. It's an active line that provides a harmonic structure with movement.
DO YOU THINK THERE'S A SLIGHT BIT OF LESLIE ON THE MAIN GUITAR?
The overdubbed 12-strings simply add a melodic answer to the vocal.  OR A LITTLE LESLIE ON THE 12-STRING?  

4. Don't Talk
Here's the template again, the two 12-strings playing melodic lines to complement the vocal. Not much else to say.
LESLIE ON ONE OF THE 12 STRINGS, AND TREMELO ON THE OTHER?

5. IWFTD
This is a more typical use of guitar. Likely Carl on Rickenbacker, the guitar strums. However, there is something about the timbre of it that led Carol Kaye and the Liner Notes people to conclude there is a ukulele on the track, which there isn't, So even the pretty normal strummed guitar kind of thing is slightly off.  
I'M PRETTY CONVINCED IT'S CARL ON THE 12-STRING AND RAY POHLMAN ON DANO BASS, BUT THE FACT THAT THE BOYS PLAYED A ROAD GIG IN ANOTHER STATE THE NIGHT BEFORE, AND ANOTHER ONE THE NIGHT FOLLOWING THIS AFTERNOON SESSION, CAUSES ME TO PAUSE.  THE FACT THAT BOTH GIGS WERE IN OREGON DOES MAKE IT POSSIBLE, THOUGH, FOR CARL, AND THE OTHER GUYS, TO HAVE FLOWN HOME TO L.A. BETWEEN SHOWS.  AGAIN, LESIE OR MAYBE TREMELO ON THE 12?

6. LGAFA
Very contrasting guitars on this. A strummed acoustic guitar, which is quite rare indeed on Pet Sounds, adds chordal support. And then at the end, the slide guitar adds the Hawaiian feel.  CAROL THOUGHT THERE WERE TWO ACOUSTICS, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE THERE'S JUST ONE.  6-STRING, RIGHT?

7. Sloop John B
The quintessential guitar arrangement. Also tricky to figure out all the elements.
Obviously, we have, on the basic track, the two electric 12s playing their figures, and then Billy Strange famously overdubbed a third 12-string part. These high arpeggios lend a shimmer to the arrangement, while the somewhat twangy lower 12-string plays a strangely nautical figure.
The confusion comes though the presence of Al Casey in the credits. The guitarists present were Jerry Cole, Billy Strange, and Al Casey. Presumably Jerry and Billy played the 12-strings. I had wanted to think that Casey played a Dano bass, because the bass line is so massive and fat, I figured there were three basses. But then Al Casey put out an album in which he covers Sloop John, and recounts that he played acoustic guitar on the session. If you listen closely to the session, you can hear the very faint echos of a piano pounding the chords, and if you just listen hard enough, there might just be an acoustic guitar mixed in there. It's a very Spectorian thing, where the instruments are not really audible but "there."
I'd like to hear alternate theories about this.  

ARE WE SURE THE ELECTRICS ON THE BASIC TRACK ARE 12-STRINGS?  AROUND 2001 OR SO I DID A VERY LONG STUDY OF THE SESSION TAPE (AS HEARD ON UNSURPASSED MASTERS), AND CONCLUDED THAT THE TWO INTERLOCKING ELECTRIC GUITARS HEARD ON THE BASIC TRACK (BILLY STRANGE & JERRY COLE) WERE BOTH 6-STRINGS, AND THE RHYTHM GUITAR (AL CASEY) WAS ELECTRIC...AND IT BLENDS IN WITH THE PIANO HEARD WAY IN THE BACKGROUND TO CREATE THE "PIANO/GUITAR" SOUND BRIAN HOLDS UP AS ONE OF PHIL SPECTOR'S GREATEST ACHIEVEMENTS.  I DON'T HEAR AN ACOUSTIC GUITAR ON HERE.  THE MASSIVE BASS GUITAR SOUND IS JUST CAROL KAYE PLAYING WITH HER HARD PICK, GETTING THAT GREAT CLICKY TREBLE TONE ALONG WITH THE LOW MIDRANGE BASS TONE, DOUBLED BY LYLE ON UPRIGHT.

8. GOK
Another puzzler for me. Carl is on 12-string, probably Rickenbacker, and he's sharply strumming the chords in the second and third verses. But it's very well blended into the keyboard sound, so they become like one thing, a sum of their parts.  
AGAIN, THE "PIANO/GUITAR".  

The question for me has always been whether there is a Danelectro bass on this, or possibly a second Fender Bass. Both Carol and Ray Pohlman are on the AFM, but I have yet to definitively hear the presence of two separate electric basses. But the song is another example of a conventional guitar use transformed by the production into something more special.    
SIMILAR TO THE "KISS ME BABY" SESSION...BOTH CAROL AND RAY ARE ON THAT SESSION, AND THE AFM SHEET ACTUALLY SPECIFIES THAT THEY BOTH PLAYED BASS, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE ONE INSTRUMENT WITH A LOT OF GREAT (LOW MID OR BASS) TONE.  ON "GOK" THOUGH, I HEAR MORE TREBLE IN THERE.  AND, THERE'S THE UPRIGHT TOO, WHICH ISN'T ON "KMB".

9. IKTAA
As Mentioned above, this is back to the template of two 12s playing high. I would love to know how Brian and the guitarists put this together. It's a tricky arpeggio with some dissonances with the underlying chords. It is also interesting to note that the line was altered between the first takes and the last, when Brian was still experimenting with the arrangement. This is one where you wish tape was rolling the whole time they were fooling around with the arrangement. It's such a great use of guitars. I expect that it was possible only because of the abilities and sensibilities of Kessel and Glen Campbell. I'm not sure if it's something a non-guitar player would stumble upon.  
AGREED.

10. Here Today
Another very sort of conventional use of guitars, strumming away during the choruses. It's an acoustic 12 and an electric 12 just strumming full on chords, and relatively high in the mix. Perhaps the least interesting guitar track of the whole album.  
ARE WE SURE BOTH GUITARS ARE 12-STRING (AS OPPOSED TO ONE OR BOTH BEING 6-STRINGS WITH LOTS OF ECHO)?  ON THE OTHER HAND, I USED TO JUST THINK THAT THE LOUD ELECTRIC RHYTHM GUITAR ON "WORMS" WAS A 6-STRING BATHED IN ECHO, UNTIL I HEARD THE FULL SESSION TAPE LAST YEAR (I REMEMBER GETTING UP AT 5:00AM TO STUDY THAT ONE FOR HOURS, TAKE AFTER TAKE...IMAGINE THE SURREALNESS OF THAT!), THEN I REALIZED IT IS IN FACT A 12-STRING BATHE IN ECHO.

11. IJWMFTT
Originally, Glen Campbell was playing banjo on this, before Brian asked him to switch to a "Jazz Box." The Jazz Box strums along pretty conventionally. The other guitar is an electric 12 string played by Barney Kessel. It's a little tough to pick out exactly what it's doing, but at times it is adding strange dissonances. In particular, during the "each time things start to happen again" section, it harps on a particularly dissonant note Very subtle guitar arrangement there.
AGREED.

12. PET SOUNDS
The basic track features a standard electric 6-string, sounds like it could be a telecaster, playing the surfy repeated D/Eb figure. And then the doubled lead guitar is on there too, of course, with the tremolo/leslie effect. And as Craig mentioned, there's the very, very soft acoustic guitar accents during the "bongo" section. This guitar is actually not there the whole time, it was inserted just in those spots, as the UM tapes prove.  
AGAIN, IS THE ACOUSTIC 6-STRING A "REGULAR"  DREADNAUGHT, OR THE MUCH LARGER "BOX" GUITAR, OR A SEMI-ELECTRIC ARCHTOP?  

13. CAROLINE NO
Two electric 12s again. One of these plays rich jazz chords, the other serves almost as a cello, adding low counterpoint to the vocal in single-note lines.  
I DON'T THINK THERE'S AN UPRIGHT BASS ON THIS ONE...LYLE PLAYED UKE ON THE BASIC TRACK (INTERLOCKING WITH THE HARPSICHORD) WHILE CAROL PLAYED FENDER BASS AND OVERDUBBED THE DANO 6-STRING (SHE'S ONE OF A HANDFUL OF PLAYERS PAID FOR OVERTIME ON THE SESSION).  

14.  TROMBONE DIXIE, ANYONE?  BARNEY, JERRY, AND BILLY...AT LEAST TWO 12-STRINGS, AND MAYBE A 6-STRING ELECTRIC?

[c-man]

I'm not saying this is true for all the tracks, obviously, but in a few cases there really is a "strumming" guitar playing the traditional role of an archtop acoustic in a jazz band, but it got buried in the mix, especially in mono. In some cases it's all but inaudible but is still there.

It's a similar thing that happened on many, many big band jazz recordings and performances - the acoustic archtop strumming got buried unless the rhythm section got featured on a chorus, or unless it was Count Basie's band where the absolute master of that style Freddie Green played within the arrangements so well that you could hear his part - somehow - despite the rest of the band. How many 30's/40's/50's big band recordings are there where you can actually hear that rhythm guitar? Yet almost every dance band had one.

There is that one BW example I mentioned on Donny L's question about percussion on the title track, where in one of the breakdowns of that song you can hear a very faint acoustic guitar strumming away, in typical jazz band fashion. That guitar was playing almost the whole time, but it's all but lost in the band.  In the final mix you can feel those parts more that actually hear them.

Would the acoustic archtop be a semi-electric that was either unplugged or turned down very low, or were there actual fullbore, non-electric acoustic archtops?  If so, were they of the "f-hole" variety?  Very interesting.

[c-man]

While we're at it, what's everyone's opinion on these:

1.  SALT LAKE CITY:  Is the intro two 6-string basses (one a Dano played by Carol, the other a Fender VI played by the self-described owner of the first Fender VI on the L.A. session scene, Jerry Cole)?  That's what I wrote in my beachboysarchives.com essay, but would like to hear the opinion of others.  On the session tape, Brian refers to Carol's instrument as a "guitar" rather than a bass, so I think it very likely. 

2.  CALIFORNIA GIRLS:  Two 12-strings (Carl and Jerry) in the intro?  Again, that's what I wrote, but a Wolf Marshall guitar transcription book claims one is a 6-string.  Opinions please?

3.  THE LITTLE GIRL I ONCE KNEW:  There's no less than three electrics on the intro...to me, it sounds like a 12- and a 6- on the first round, joined by a second 12- on the second round.  Thoughts?

[c-man]

Oh, and one more, maybe for the other Craig.......on "Shelter", is it two 6-string electrics combining in places to sound like a 12-, or is there actually a 12- overdubbed on there?

[guitarfool2002]

I'm not saying this is true for all the tracks, obviously, but in a few cases there really is a "strumming" guitar playing the traditional role of an archtop acoustic in a jazz band, but it got buried in the mix, especially in mono. In some cases it's all but inaudible but is still there.

It's a similar thing that happened on many, many big band jazz recordings and performances - the acoustic archtop strumming got buried unless the rhythm section got featured on a chorus, or unless it was Count Basie's band where the absolute master of that style Freddie Green played within the arrangements so well that you could hear his part - somehow - despite the rest of the band. How many 30's/40's/50's big band recordings are there where you can actually hear that rhythm guitar? Yet almost every dance band had one.

There is that one BW example I mentioned on Donny L's question about percussion on the title track, where in one of the breakdowns of that song you can hear a very faint acoustic guitar strumming away, in typical jazz band fashion. That guitar was playing almost the whole time, but it's all but lost in the band.  In the final mix you can feel those parts more that actually hear them.

Would the acoustic archtop be a semi-electric that was either unplugged or turned down very low, or were there actual fullbore, non-electric acoustic archtops?  If so, were they of the "f-hole" variety?  Very interesting.

I do want to eventually tackle some of the other questions too, but this one I think I can answer with some confidence:

Based on all the evidence, including photos I've seen, film, interviews, and even some personal conversations with some players from the time, I'm going to say the evidence points to the rhythm tracks being played on a non-electric, full bodied archtop guitar, the kind with the F-holes.

These were designed and used as big band or orchestra model guitars, designed to project a specific way and within a certain frequency range to fit in and also be heard in a large group setting. We'd rarely see anything like a standard round-hole dreadnaught acoustic model on a bandstand, and it still remains somewhat of a standard for that sound and use.

I know guys like Kessel and Tedesco, coming from the jazz world, would use these same non-electric archtops, whether they were Gibsons, Strombergs, D'Angelico, etc (all the standard names from the 30's and 40's) to play rhythm parts on 60's pop/rock sessions. Kessel played a specific Gibson non-electric model which according to Don Peake was also used into the 70's when Peake played sessions for Ray Charles.

Unless it was a country or folk-themed session, or something requiring fingerpicking, I don't believe I've seen as many photos of the WC session guitarists who played the rhythm chair using a Martin or Gibson (or other) dreadnaught model...the photos of them using it are probably sessions where that sound was requested for the song or where that style lent itself to that sound.

I hear the "archtop" sound on Pet Sounds, for example. It projects a certain way and doesn't have the full-bodied bass response that a dreadnaught would have. Those acoustic archtops project within a certain frequency range, and again that goes back to the big band days where they filled the sonic gap between the bass, drums, and piano. Dreadnaughts could have done it, but they didn't sit as well, I'd imagine, within that context.

Big disclaimer: I'm going on assumptions and circumstantial evidence - apart from Kessel, Peake, and Tedesco who have said they used such a guitar on specific sessions - the rest I'll call a "semi-educated guess" until stronger evidence is found.

As far as pickups and electric-acoustic F-hole guitars, a lot of guys may have put a DeArmond pickup or something on the acoustic archtop, but for that big-band style of chord playing I think they would have preferred 100% acoustic archtops for that purpose. And they had access to electrified Gibson jazz boxes and whatnot anyway, in their arsenals.

The great unknown is where the customizations were done, and almost all of these guys would customize and change their guitars pretty regularly. So the guitar Kessel had in 64 may have been modded into something else by 67, it's hard to tell.

[guitarfool2002]

Oh, and one more, maybe for the other Craig.......on "Shelter", is it two 6-string electrics combining in places to sound like a 12-, or is there actually a 12- overdubbed on there?

My ears are hearing a standard 12-string electric, and it sounds like it's pretty heavily compressed for that McGuinn vibe - very clean and present sound. And later in the track, it sounds like they have another 12-string electric in there, and they panned them hard left and right. Of course there are other parts too, including a 6-string electric (or several) adding to the texture.

[atroxi]

I have a cord for the 666 but haven't got around to getting myself one yet.

I have a perfectly working 666 mic but a dodgy semi-working cord, where you have the cord but not the mic. It seems we're on opposite sides of the equation here. 

I have a working 664, 644 and the associated cords.  The 664 has occasionally seen use.  The TV station I work at has local bands come in once a week, and our sound guy will sometimes scour the building for vintage mics depending on the need.

[guitarfool2002]

Before I get fact-checked on some of the guitar info  , I will also point to the most frustrating thing about trying to pin some of this stuff down: The contradictions. Or what look like contradictions to previous statements.

Example: 1993, Tedesco talking about the Beach Boys sessions said he'd use the Telecaster for electric work (that can be proven) and for acoustic he said "a little round Martin". I've seen him say, and seen photos of him doing so, that he used an archtop jazz box for acoustic rhythm work. The answer may be "both" depending on the session.

Example 2: Jerry Cole, 1993, also mentions the Telecaster for electric work and a (Martin acoustic) D-35. In the same sentence he mentions sitar and ud, saying he'd pull out "whatever Brian wanted". The sitar wasn't in Brian's working lexicon at least up to 1966, was it? So there is a cloudy reference which almost adds a question mark to the D-35.

Same interview piece, Kessel says "I distinctly remember being in the engineering booth with Glen Campbell", which is the scenario described in the research in this thread, yet the article itself says he used a Guild acoustic 12-string on earlier sessions. No specifics, nothing beyond that. One bit of info doesn't fit with the other in context.

I just wanted to point those out because the nature of trying to get to the bottom of these various factoids is full of contradictions and non sequiturs like the Guild 12-string bit.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

All great stuff, guys.  I'm inclined to agree with Guitarfool Craig that when we're talking about acoustic guitars, for this period at least, we're talking about these, what Tommy and Tye/Irv are playing.  I can't tell what Pitman is playing:



Now to respond to the other Craig, my responses in color:



1. Wouldn't It Be Nice
There is, unusually for the album, a strummed guitar. I've always thought it was some kind of jazz box acoustic. It is there more for texture than any sort of chordal definition. It is probably the closest thing to how a guitar would traditionally be used for such a song.  
DO YOU GUYS THINK THE ACOUSTIC 6-STRING IS A "REGULAR"  DREADNAUGHT, OR THE MUCH LARGER "BOX" GUITAR, OR A SEMI-ELECTRIC ARCHTOP?  ALSO, I ONCE READ SOMEWHERE - I THINK THE GRANATA BOOK - THAT THE INTRO GUITAR IS IN SLACK-KEY TUNING.  ANY THOUGHTS?  I MEAN, IT DOESN'T SOUND VERY HAWAIIAN TO ME.

See above about the acoustic.  The intro has been subject to so much debate that all kinds of weird things have been put forward.  There is the question of why it does sound kind of out of tune at times, which could lead to the slack-key assumption.  I still think it's just a couple of regular 12-strings, possibly played a little higher than they were set up for, which sounds strange in the context of these very professional musicians, but that's the only thing I can think of


3. That's Not Me
Here we have the main guitar acting very much as a bassline, and in fact the overdubbed basses do for the most part double the guitar line. Carl's guitar, probably a Strat or his Jaguar is kind of dialed in to a surfy kind of sound, with the treble and reverb. But again, no strumming, no chords. It's an active line that provides a harmonic structure with movement.
DO YOU THINK THERE'S A SLIGHT BIT OF LESLIE ON THE MAIN GUITAR?
The overdubbed 12-strings simply add a melodic answer to the vocal.  OR A LITTLE LESLIE ON THE 12-STRING?  

I don't think there's Leslie on anything.  However, I've recently come to the conclusion that there may be two guitars playing in unison.  Maybe Carl and Al both played guitar?  I think the UM overdub tracks prove there's no leslie on the overdubbed 12-string, it's just a nice clean, chimey tone

4. Don't Talk
Here's the template again, the two 12-strings playing melodic lines to complement the vocal. Not much else to say.
LESLIE ON ONE OF THE 12 STRINGS, AND TREMELO ON THE OTHER?

I don't hear leslie here, either.  I think one guitar is just playing "manual" tremolo by fast "mandolin" style picking.  But we're at a major disadvantage because of the relative lack of session tape.

5. IWFTD
This is a more typical use of guitar. Likely Carl on Rickenbacker, the guitar strums. However, there is something about the timbre of it that led Carol Kaye and the Liner Notes people to conclude there is a ukulele on the track, which there isn't, So even the pretty normal strummed guitar kind of thing is slightly off.  
I'M PRETTY CONVINCED IT'S CARL ON THE 12-STRING AND RAY POHLMAN ON DANO BASS, BUT THE FACT THAT THE BOYS PLAYED A ROAD GIG IN ANOTHER STATE THE NIGHT BEFORE, AND ANOTHER ONE THE NIGHT FOLLOWING THIS AFTERNOON SESSION, CAUSES ME TO PAUSE.  THE FACT THAT BOTH GIGS WERE IN OREGON DOES MAKE IT POSSIBLE, THOUGH, FOR CARL, AND THE OTHER GUYS, TO HAVE FLOWN HOME TO L.A. BETWEEN SHOWS.  AGAIN, LESIE OR MAYBE TREMELO ON THE 12?

The guitar does sound a little affected, but it's hard to tell.

6. LGAFA
Very contrasting guitars on this. A strummed acoustic guitar, which is quite rare indeed on Pet Sounds, adds chordal support. And then at the end, the slide guitar adds the Hawaiian feel.  CAROL THOUGHT THERE WERE TWO ACOUSTICS, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE THERE'S JUST ONE.  6-STRING, RIGHT?

I think there's no question it's just one, 6-string acoustic

7. Sloop John B
The quintessential guitar arrangement. Also tricky to figure out all the elements.
Obviously, we have, on the basic track, the two electric 12s playing their figures, and then Billy Strange famously overdubbed a third 12-string part. These high arpeggios lend a shimmer to the arrangement, while the somewhat twangy lower 12-string plays a strangely nautical figure.
The confusion comes though the presence of Al Casey in the credits. The guitarists present were Jerry Cole, Billy Strange, and Al Casey. Presumably Jerry and Billy played the 12-strings. I had wanted to think that Casey played a Dano bass, because the bass line is so massive and fat, I figured there were three basses. But then Al Casey put out an album in which he covers Sloop John, and recounts that he played acoustic guitar on the session. If you listen closely to the session, you can hear the very faint echos of a piano pounding the chords, and if you just listen hard enough, there might just be an acoustic guitar mixed in there. It's a very Spectorian thing, where the instruments are not really audible but "there."
I'd like to hear alternate theories about this.  

ARE WE SURE THE ELECTRICS ON THE BASIC TRACK ARE 12-STRINGS?  AROUND 2001 OR SO I DID A VERY LONG STUDY OF THE SESSION TAPE (AS HEARD ON UNSURPASSED MASTERS), AND CONCLUDED THAT THE TWO INTERLOCKING ELECTRIC GUITARS HEARD ON THE BASIC TRACK (BILLY STRANGE & JERRY COLE) WERE BOTH 6-STRINGS, AND THE RHYTHM GUITAR (AL CASEY) WAS ELECTRIC...AND IT BLENDS IN WITH THE PIANO HEARD WAY IN THE BACKGROUND TO CREATE THE "PIANO/GUITAR" SOUND BRIAN HOLDS UP AS ONE OF PHIL SPECTOR'S GREATEST ACHIEVEMENTS.  I DON'T HEAR AN ACOUSTIC GUITAR ON HERE.  THE MASSIVE BASS GUITAR SOUND IS JUST CAROL KAYE PLAYING WITH HER HARD PICK, GETTING THAT GREAT CLICKY TREBLE TONE ALONG WITH THE LOW MIDRANGE BASS TONE, DOUBLED BY LYLE ON UPRIGHT.

The session tapes seem to reveal that there are 12-strings on the basic track.  This is again where listening to the noodling between takes has helped me.  I don't hear acoustic guitar either, but that's what Casey says he played, FWIW.  I mean, I don't really hear the rhythm guitar at all, and you can barely hear the piano.  It has made me wonder if they weren't even miked up by the end of it.  I think part of what makes the bass sound so big is that Carol and Lyle seem to have been recorded to different tracks of tape, so the stereo mixes can spread the bass line.  The effect is really different than other straight doubles they did, though.  Maybe they just used a different mic on Lyle or something, who knows?

8. GOK
Another puzzler for me. Carl is on 12-string, probably Rickenbacker, and he's sharply strumming the chords in the second and third verses. But it's very well blended into the keyboard sound, so they become like one thing, a sum of their parts.  
AGAIN, THE "PIANO/GUITAR".  

The question for me has always been whether there is a Danelectro bass on this, or possibly a second Fender Bass. Both Carol and Ray Pohlman are on the AFM, but I have yet to definitively hear the presence of two separate electric basses. But the song is another example of a conventional guitar use transformed by the production into something more special.    
SIMILAR TO THE "KISS ME BABY" SESSION...BOTH CAROL AND RAY ARE ON THAT SESSION, AND THE AFM SHEET ACTUALLY SPECIFIES THAT THEY BOTH PLAYED BASS, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE ONE INSTRUMENT WITH A LOT OF GREAT (LOW MID OR BASS) TONE.  ON "GOK" THOUGH, I HEAR MORE TREBLE IN THERE.  AND, THERE'S THE UPRIGHT TOO, WHICH ISN'T ON "KMB".

But can you point to a moment during the track or even the session where you can actually hear two electric basses?  That is what throws me off.


10. Here Today
Another very sort of conventional use of guitars, strumming away during the choruses. It's an acoustic 12 and an electric 12 just strumming full on chords, and relatively high in the mix. Perhaps the least interesting guitar track of the whole album.  
ARE WE SURE BOTH GUITARS ARE 12-STRING (AS OPPOSED TO ONE OR BOTH BEING 6-STRINGS WITH LOTS OF ECHO)?  ON THE OTHER HAND, I USED TO JUST THINK THAT THE LOUD ELECTRIC RHYTHM GUITAR ON "WORMS" WAS A 6-STRING BATHED IN ECHO, UNTIL I HEARD THE FULL SESSION TAPE LAST YEAR (I REMEMBER GETTING UP AT 5:00AM TO STUDY THAT ONE FOR HOURS, TAKE AFTER TAKE...IMAGINE THE SURREALNESS OF THAT!), THEN I REALIZED IT IS IN FACT A 12-STRING BATHE IN ECHO.

When in doubt, I just sort of assume that they are 12-strings, simply because there's so little electric 12 string on Pet Sounds.  Brian was nothing if not partial to his little fads, and 12-strings seems to be one at this time.  But there's no noodling that really confirms 12-string, so I wouldn't want to say anything definitively, I guess.

 

13. CAROLINE NO
Two electric 12s again. One of these plays rich jazz chords, the other serves almost as a cello, adding low counterpoint to the vocal in single-note lines.  
I DON'T THINK THERE'S AN UPRIGHT BASS ON THIS ONE...LYLE PLAYED UKE ON THE BASIC TRACK (INTERLOCKING WITH THE HARPSICHORD) WHILE CAROL PLAYED FENDER BASS AND OVERDUBBED THE DANO 6-STRING (SHE'S ONE OF A HANDFUL OF PLAYERS PAID FOR OVERTIME ON THE SESSION).  

There is indeed upright bass--it's the only bass instrument on the basic track.  Even if the timbre doesn't give it away, a Fender Bass doesn't allow for the smooth portamenti that the bass plays--you need a fretless instrument for that.  Additionally, I don't think there's a uke.  The harpsichord is using the buff stop, or "lute" stop which sounds a little ukey, but since Lyle is playing bass on the basic track there really couldn't be uke.

14.  TROMBONE DIXIE, ANYONE?  BARNEY, JERRY, AND BILLY...AT LEAST TWO 12-STRINGS, AND MAYBE A 6-STRING ELECTRIC?

That would be my best guess.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

1.  SALT LAKE CITY:  Is the intro two 6-string basses (one a Dano played by Carol, the other a Fender VI played by the self-described owner of the first Fender VI on the L.A. session scene, Jerry Cole)?  That's what I wrote in my beachboysarchives.com essay, but would like to hear the opinion of others.  On the session tape, Brian refers to Carol's instrument as a "guitar" rather than a bass, so I think it very likely. 

Makes sense to me.  This is going to have to remain conjecture.  I don't remember hearing any open Bs or Es from Carol, which is about the only way to confirm it being a 6-string.

2.  CALIFORNIA GIRLS:  Two 12-strings (Carl and Jerry) in the intro?  Again, that's what I wrote, but a Wolf Marshall guitar transcription book claims one is a 6-string.  Opinions please?

Two 12s in my opinion.

3.  THE LITTLE GIRL I ONCE KNEW:  There's no less than three electrics on the intro...to me, it sounds like a 12- and a 6- on the first round, joined by a second 12- on the second round.  Thoughts?

I haven't really dug into that session recently.

[Paulos]

I just wanted to say that you guys are awesome, keep up the good work!

[DonnyL]

A few questions, opinions & observations...presented in CAPS for ease of reading, not b/c I'm yelling.  

1. Wouldn't It Be Nice
There is, unusually for the album, a strummed guitar. I've always thought it was some kind of jazz box acoustic. It is there more for texture than any sort of chordal definition. It is probably the closest thing to how a guitar would traditionally be used for such a song.  
DO YOU GUYS THINK THE ACOUSTIC 6-STRING IS A "REGULAR"  DREADNAUGHT, OR THE MUCH LARGER "BOX" GUITAR, OR A SEMI-ELECTRIC ARCHTOP?  ALSO, I ONCE READ SOMEWHERE - I THINK THE GRANATA BOOK - THAT THE INTRO GUITAR IS IN SLACK-KEY TUNING.  ANY THOUGHTS?  I MEAN, IT DOESN'T SOUND VERY HAWAIIAN TO ME.

3. That's Not Me
Here we have the main guitar acting very much as a bassline, and in fact the overdubbed basses do for the most part double the guitar line. Carl's guitar, probably a Strat or his Jaguar is kind of dialed in to a surfy kind of sound, with the treble and reverb. But again, no strumming, no chords. It's an active line that provides a harmonic structure with movement.
DO YOU THINK THERE'S A SLIGHT BIT OF LESLIE ON THE MAIN GUITAR?
The overdubbed 12-strings simply add a melodic answer to the vocal.  OR A LITTLE LESLIE ON THE 12-STRING?  

4. Don't Talk
Here's the template again, the two 12-strings playing melodic lines to complement the vocal. Not much else to say.
LESLIE ON ONE OF THE 12 STRINGS, AND TREMELO ON THE OTHER?

5. IWFTD
This is a more typical use of guitar. Likely Carl on Rickenbacker, the guitar strums. However, there is something about the timbre of it that led Carol Kaye and the Liner Notes people to conclude there is a ukulele on the track, which there isn't, So even the pretty normal strummed guitar kind of thing is slightly off.  
I'M PRETTY CONVINCED IT'S CARL ON THE 12-STRING AND RAY POHLMAN ON DANO BASS, BUT THE FACT THAT THE BOYS PLAYED A ROAD GIG IN ANOTHER STATE THE NIGHT BEFORE, AND ANOTHER ONE THE NIGHT FOLLOWING THIS AFTERNOON SESSION, CAUSES ME TO PAUSE.  THE FACT THAT BOTH GIGS WERE IN OREGON DOES MAKE IT POSSIBLE, THOUGH, FOR CARL, AND THE OTHER GUYS, TO HAVE FLOWN HOME TO L.A. BETWEEN SHOWS.  AGAIN, LESIE OR MAYBE TREMELO ON THE 12?

6. LGAFA
Very contrasting guitars on this. A strummed acoustic guitar, which is quite rare indeed on Pet Sounds, adds chordal support. And then at the end, the slide guitar adds the Hawaiian feel.  CAROL THOUGHT THERE WERE TWO ACOUSTICS, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE THERE'S JUST ONE.  6-STRING, RIGHT?

7. Sloop John B
The quintessential guitar arrangement. Also tricky to figure out all the elements.
Obviously, we have, on the basic track, the two electric 12s playing their figures, and then Billy Strange famously overdubbed a third 12-string part. These high arpeggios lend a shimmer to the arrangement, while the somewhat twangy lower 12-string plays a strangely nautical figure.
The confusion comes though the presence of Al Casey in the credits. The guitarists present were Jerry Cole, Billy Strange, and Al Casey. Presumably Jerry and Billy played the 12-strings. I had wanted to think that Casey played a Dano bass, because the bass line is so massive and fat, I figured there were three basses. But then Al Casey put out an album in which he covers Sloop John, and recounts that he played acoustic guitar on the session. If you listen closely to the session, you can hear the very faint echos of a piano pounding the chords, and if you just listen hard enough, there might just be an acoustic guitar mixed in there. It's a very Spectorian thing, where the instruments are not really audible but "there."
I'd like to hear alternate theories about this.  

ARE WE SURE THE ELECTRICS ON THE BASIC TRACK ARE 12-STRINGS?  AROUND 2001 OR SO I DID A VERY LONG STUDY OF THE SESSION TAPE (AS HEARD ON UNSURPASSED MASTERS), AND CONCLUDED THAT THE TWO INTERLOCKING ELECTRIC GUITARS HEARD ON THE BASIC TRACK (BILLY STRANGE & JERRY COLE) WERE BOTH 6-STRINGS, AND THE RHYTHM GUITAR (AL CASEY) WAS ELECTRIC...AND IT BLENDS IN WITH THE PIANO HEARD WAY IN THE BACKGROUND TO CREATE THE "PIANO/GUITAR" SOUND BRIAN HOLDS UP AS ONE OF PHIL SPECTOR'S GREATEST ACHIEVEMENTS.  I DON'T HEAR AN ACOUSTIC GUITAR ON HERE.  THE MASSIVE BASS GUITAR SOUND IS JUST CAROL KAYE PLAYING WITH HER HARD PICK, GETTING THAT GREAT CLICKY TREBLE TONE ALONG WITH THE LOW MIDRANGE BASS TONE, DOUBLED BY LYLE ON UPRIGHT.

8. GOK
Another puzzler for me. Carl is on 12-string, probably Rickenbacker, and he's sharply strumming the chords in the second and third verses. But it's very well blended into the keyboard sound, so they become like one thing, a sum of their parts.  
AGAIN, THE "PIANO/GUITAR".  

The question for me has always been whether there is a Danelectro bass on this, or possibly a second Fender Bass. Both Carol and Ray Pohlman are on the AFM, but I have yet to definitively hear the presence of two separate electric basses. But the song is another example of a conventional guitar use transformed by the production into something more special.    
SIMILAR TO THE "KISS ME BABY" SESSION...BOTH CAROL AND RAY ARE ON THAT SESSION, AND THE AFM SHEET ACTUALLY SPECIFIES THAT THEY BOTH PLAYED BASS, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE ONE INSTRUMENT WITH A LOT OF GREAT (LOW MID OR BASS) TONE.  ON "GOK" THOUGH, I HEAR MORE TREBLE IN THERE.  AND, THERE'S THE UPRIGHT TOO, WHICH ISN'T ON "KMB".

9. IKTAA
As Mentioned above, this is back to the template of two 12s playing high. I would love to know how Brian and the guitarists put this together. It's a tricky arpeggio with some dissonances with the underlying chords. It is also interesting to note that the line was altered between the first takes and the last, when Brian was still experimenting with the arrangement. This is one where you wish tape was rolling the whole time they were fooling around with the arrangement. It's such a great use of guitars. I expect that it was possible only because of the abilities and sensibilities of Kessel and Glen Campbell. I'm not sure if it's something a non-guitar player would stumble upon.  
AGREED.

10. Here Today
Another very sort of conventional use of guitars, strumming away during the choruses. It's an acoustic 12 and an electric 12 just strumming full on chords, and relatively high in the mix. Perhaps the least interesting guitar track of the whole album.  
ARE WE SURE BOTH GUITARS ARE 12-STRING (AS OPPOSED TO ONE OR BOTH BEING 6-STRINGS WITH LOTS OF ECHO)?  ON THE OTHER HAND, I USED TO JUST THINK THAT THE LOUD ELECTRIC RHYTHM GUITAR ON "WORMS" WAS A 6-STRING BATHED IN ECHO, UNTIL I HEARD THE FULL SESSION TAPE LAST YEAR (I REMEMBER GETTING UP AT 5:00AM TO STUDY THAT ONE FOR HOURS, TAKE AFTER TAKE...IMAGINE THE SURREALNESS OF THAT!), THEN I REALIZED IT IS IN FACT A 12-STRING BATHE IN ECHO.

11. IJWMFTT
Originally, Glen Campbell was playing banjo on this, before Brian asked him to switch to a "Jazz Box." The Jazz Box strums along pretty conventionally. The other guitar is an electric 12 string played by Barney Kessel. It's a little tough to pick out exactly what it's doing, but at times it is adding strange dissonances. In particular, during the "each time things start to happen again" section, it harps on a particularly dissonant note Very subtle guitar arrangement there.
AGREED.

12. PET SOUNDS
The basic track features a standard electric 6-string, sounds like it could be a telecaster, playing the surfy repeated D/Eb figure. And then the doubled lead guitar is on there too, of course, with the tremolo/leslie effect. And as Craig mentioned, there's the very, very soft acoustic guitar accents during the "bongo" section. This guitar is actually not there the whole time, it was inserted just in those spots, as the UM tapes prove.  
AGAIN, IS THE ACOUSTIC 6-STRING A "REGULAR"  DREADNAUGHT, OR THE MUCH LARGER "BOX" GUITAR, OR A SEMI-ELECTRIC ARCHTOP?  

13. CAROLINE NO
Two electric 12s again. One of these plays rich jazz chords, the other serves almost as a cello, adding low counterpoint to the vocal in single-note lines.  
I DON'T THINK THERE'S AN UPRIGHT BASS ON THIS ONE...LYLE PLAYED UKE ON THE BASIC TRACK (INTERLOCKING WITH THE HARPSICHORD) WHILE CAROL PLAYED FENDER BASS AND OVERDUBBED THE DANO 6-STRING (SHE'S ONE OF A HANDFUL OF PLAYERS PAID FOR OVERTIME ON THE SESSION).  

14.  TROMBONE DIXIE, ANYONE?  BARNEY, JERRY, AND BILLY...AT LEAST TWO 12-STRINGS, AND MAYBE A 6-STRING ELECTRIC?

Re: possible Leslie on some tracks -- I think maybe when some people think they're hearing leslie, it could possibly be the effect of more than one reverb send on the same track (i.e., reverb was printed on the guitar track [or from the amp], then reverb was also applied to the same signal at some later point during submixing or bouncing). This can create an effect that is similar to a leslie speaker (I think the phenomenon is called the Doppler effect). That said, a Leslie on slow setting is can be very subtle on a guitar.

Since many of these guitars were recorded direct, my theory is that there is no Leslie in most cases unless it's a pronounced effect ... Not sure how many Leslie speakers most studios had, but they were not the kind of thing that guitar players carried around. Since you do hear organ through Leslie on a lot of these tracks, it would be safe to assume if there is a Leslie's organ on a session, then there is probably not a Leslie'd guitar as well, unless it was an overdub. Just a practical theory.

For what it's worth, Carol Kaye once told me she never saw a Bass VI in the studio and it was always the Danelectro. That made sense to me because the Bass VI was a very expensive instrument compared to the Dano.

'Sloop' has a 12-string on there for sure, I'd say. It sounds so much like the Fender Electric XII. I have actually recorded a bit of an experiment with my Fender XII (a '65 model) recorded direct, and I will try to upload the results today if anyone wants to hear.

I really don't hear Dano on 'God Only Knows'.

I hear string bass for sure on 'Caroline, No'. And Dano for sure. Those are both very distinct in my opinion. Though I suppose you could record the Fender bass to sound more like a string bass.

I think some of these questions are impossible to answer ... two 6-string guitars deep in a mix vs. one 12? Can one tell by listening? We'd really have to listen to clues on the session tapes I suppose. You'd have to listen through the entire session tapes (not just highlights), taking notes and really listening critically. A few sets of educated ears would be needed.
 
All of my opinions are based on the final mono mixes, which are the ones I think give the most accurate assessment, as the re-mixes have extra (sometimes digital) reverb (and other unknown things, compressors, and computer processing, etc.) that cause confusion for me. I have never listened to the unsurpassed masters stuff, maybe I should ?

[I. Spaceman]

I have never listened to the unsurpassed masters stuff, maybe I should ?

Yeah, man. Any heavy Beach Boys fan should.

[DonnyL]

1.  SALT LAKE CITY:  Is the intro two 6-string basses (one a Dano played by Carol, the other a Fender VI played by the self-described owner of the first Fender VI on the L.A. session scene, Jerry Cole)?  That's what I wrote in my beachboysarchives.com essay, but would like to hear the opinion of others.  On the session tape, Brian refers to Carol's instrument as a "guitar" rather than a bass, so I think it very likely. 

Makes sense to me.  This is going to have to remain conjecture.  I don't remember hearing any open Bs or Es from Carol, which is about the only way to confirm it being a 6-string.

I think Carol is playing a Fender bass. Danos sound kind of thin & weedy, and the intro sounds punchy & warm. I think Brian just called it a 'guitar' offhandedly.

[DonnyL]

I have never listened to the unsurpassed masters stuff, maybe I should ?

Yeah, man. Any heavy Beach Boys fan should.

I have a few from CDRs, but I don't download music, so I never wanted to shell out the dollars. I might have some stashed away but not a full collection to study. the original mono mixes can tell you a lot more than people think they can !

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

1.  SALT LAKE CITY:  Is the intro two 6-string basses (one a Dano played by Carol, the other a Fender VI played by the self-described owner of the first Fender VI on the L.A. session scene, Jerry Cole)?  That's what I wrote in my beachboysarchives.com essay, but would like to hear the opinion of others.  On the session tape, Brian refers to Carol's instrument as a "guitar" rather than a bass, so I think it very likely. 

Makes sense to me.  This is going to have to remain conjecture.  I don't remember hearing any open Bs or Es from Carol, which is about the only way to confirm it being a 6-string.

I think Carol is playing a Fender bass. Danos sound kind of thin & weedy, and the intro sounds punchy & warm. I think Brian just called it a 'guitar' offhandedly.

I think Brian offhandedly calling it a guitar off-hand is just as likely as him calling it a guitar because it was.  I really have no idea here.  But I have to disagree with the blanket statement about Danos sounding thin.  They certainly can, but they don't have to.  At the end of the day, they're 30" scale bass guitars with two extra strings, and played with a hard pick and a little palm muting makes it almost indistinguishable from, say, my 30" scale Fender Mustang Bass.

I have never listened to the unsurpassed masters stuff, maybe I should ?

Yeah, man. Any heavy Beach Boys fan should.

I have a few from CDRs, but I don't download music, so I never wanted to shell out the dollars. I might have some stashed away but not a full collection to study. the original mono mixes can tell you a lot more than people think they can !

When it comes to picking things out, there's no substitute.  Noodling between takes it what has alerted me to many fine details, like that there's a dano on WIBN.  I agree that you can get almost everything from a mono mix, but sometimes there's a surprise.

[DonnyL]

I've finally recorded some examples of the Fender XII recorded direct. This set was done last night through a Scully 280 mic preamp into an Ampex 440 mono deck, on NOS Scotch tape. I transferred to 1/4" tape directly to digital with no further enhancements:

https://soundcloud.com/donnylang

I didn't really play the parts exactly correct (just kind of winged it!), but you will be able to hear the sound. I think Josh has asked me to try to replicate the 'Wouldn't it Be Nice' intro on the XII to see if maybe that was the sound used on the record. There is obviously a 2nd guitar (or something else?) part being played over it on the record, but I think this sounds close ... I will let you guys decide.

I also had a a work-in-progress copy of a song I'm working on that has prominent timbales on this reel, so I transferred a copy of it to show an example of what they sound like in this 'beach boys'-type context as well for those who are interested (reference the 'Wrecking Crew' thread). Incidentally, this track was recorded to the Ampex AG-300 8-track from Sunset Sound that I have discussed on this board in the past. The mono reference mix was done to the 440 deck.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I've finally recorded some examples of the Fender XII recorded direct. This set was done last night through a Scully 280 mic preamp into an Ampex 440 mono deck, on NOS Scotch tape. I transferred to 1/4" tape directly to digital with no further enhancements:

https://soundcloud.com/donnylang

I didn't really play the parts exactly correct (just kind of winged it!), but you will be able to hear the sound. I think Josh has asked me to try to replicate the 'Wouldn't it Be Nice' intro on the XII to see if maybe that was the sound used on the record. There is obviously a 2nd guitar (or something else?) part being played over it on the record, but I think this sounds close ... I will let you guys decide.

I also had a a work-in-progress copy of a song I'm working on that has prominent timbales on this reel, so I transferred a copy of it to show an example of what they sound like in this 'beach boys'-type context as well for those who are interested (reference the 'Wrecking Crew' thread). Incidentally, this track was recorded to the Ampex AG-300 8-track from Sunset Sound that I have discussed on this board in the past. The mono reference mix was done to the 440 deck.

Thanks.  Both of those are really interesting.  The timbales definitely evoke the PLMW sound.  And then the 12-string is right on--particularly the California Girls intro stuff, that's truly THE sound of it.  Interesting.  I wish I had a bunch of 12-strings to see how much is the Fender and how much is the 12-string in general.  Very good!

[DonnyL]

I've finally recorded some examples of the Fender XII recorded direct. This set was done last night through a Scully 280 mic preamp into an Ampex 440 mono deck, on NOS Scotch tape. I transferred to 1/4" tape directly to digital with no further enhancements:

https://soundcloud.com/donnylang

I didn't really play the parts exactly correct (just kind of winged it!), but you will be able to hear the sound. I think Josh has asked me to try to replicate the 'Wouldn't it Be Nice' intro on the XII to see if maybe that was the sound used on the record. There is obviously a 2nd guitar (or something else?) part being played over it on the record, but I think this sounds close ... I will let you guys decide.

I also had a a work-in-progress copy of a song I'm working on that has prominent timbales on this reel, so I transferred a copy of it to show an example of what they sound like in this 'beach boys'-type context as well for those who are interested (reference the 'Wrecking Crew' thread). Incidentally, this track was recorded to the Ampex AG-300 8-track from Sunset Sound that I have discussed on this board in the past. The mono reference mix was done to the 440 deck.

Thanks.  Both of those are really interesting.  The timbales definitely evoke the PLMW sound.  And then the 12-string is right on--particularly the California Girls intro stuff, that's truly THE sound of it.  Interesting.  I wish I had a bunch of 12-strings to see how much is the Fender and how much is the 12-string in general.  Very good!

I've owned & played lots of 12-strings, but the '60s Fender is the only one to really get close like that in my opinion. I think it's a '60s vs. modern thing partially. Ditto the Scully 280 preamp. The UA 610 doesn't sound as 'right', even though it's probably closer on paper.

The 'CA Girls' and 'WIBN' parts were played on the pickup setting that gives a strange, out-of-phase thing, which is I think is unique to the original Fender XII, which had split pickups (like your Mustang bass). I think it's the bass section on the neck pickup and the treble section of the bridge pickup, out of phase, but not sure if that's correct or not. I rolled down the tone on the 'WIBN' part because that's how the record sounds to me.

re: Dano -- maybe we'll have to agree to disagree, but I've never been able to get the body or mass of sound out of a Dano compared to a Fender bass (30" or 34" scale). I usually use a regular bass with the mids boosted and lows cut off for the 'baritone' sound because of it. But I've only played the reissue Danos, not the originals.

EDIT: Oh, one other thing about Danos. So, the Fender Bass sound would be flatwound strings. I think Danos were shipped from the factory with roundwounds & usually used that way, which helped to give them that twangy brightness.

[Sam_BFC]

Those Fender XII recordings are totally awesome.

What did you use for the reverb?  (and aside from that, we're just hearing the 'dry' sound of the guitar through the pre and tape machine?)

[DonnyL]

Those Fender XII recordings are totally awesome.

What did you use for the reverb?  (and aside from that, we're just hearing the 'dry' sound of the guitar through the pre and tape machine?)

It's a Biamp spring unit. It has a built-in limiter (for the reverb signal only), which minimizes the typical 'boing'-type artifacts that can come with spring reverbs. It also has a 4-band EQ, so you can adjust the reverb. I think Biamp were trying to make a spring that sounded like a plate, but you can also roll off the highs and boost some of the low-mids to give it a chamber-type flavor. One day when I have a permanent studio setup, I hope to build a real chamber in there. To any spring haters, consider that Mark L. used that fancy AKG spring reverb for the Pet Sounds stereo mix!

The signal chain was: Fender XII > direct box (whirlwind) > Scully 280 channel mic preamp > mixing board (Teac 5, w/ the Biamp reverb in the echo send/return, and a little EQ) > Ampex 440 mono. The 1/4" tape was then played from the 440 output to a CD burner. What you're hearing is an mp3 dub of the CD (raw transfer).

[guitarfool2002]

Just wanted to clarify the Danelectro baritone/bass comments: I do own and play one, I either tune it A to A or B to B as it is set up with the baritone string set. Depending on how you play it, how you palm mute it and attack it with the pick hard or soft, towards the middle versus near the bridge, etc., and how you have it set on the volume and tone settings plus the amp you use (or direct), it can sound pretty close to the style of picked bass sounds Brian favored in 65-66. Or, it could sound totally like the tic-tac sound it was known for since the 50's. And, if you play it like a baritone and use guitar chord voicings, it has its own special character.

They do come with roundwound strings, standard, whether it's the baritone set or the E to E bass set.

So I'd say it's all in the ears of the person hearing it, but depending on how the player is playing it, the sound could sound very close to that famous picked bass tone that's all over Pet Sounds.

One of the keys to the Danelectro sound in general is the lipstick tube pickups, which were single coil and sounded quirky especially next to the factory Fenders of the day (and today). They are actually versatile in that you can make a Danelectro baritone sound like a Fender bass if you play it a certain way and set the tone and other variables a certain way.

The bass breaks on "Here Today", would we agree that is primarily a Fender? If so, we could get my Danelectro baritone to sound the same way, with the pick and the outboard effects applied. Most ears wouldn't know the difference. Which is where a thicker arrangement like those on Pet Sounds can be tricky to make a positive ID from just the final mono mixes.

I agree 100%, the most educational and informative things to hear are when the players are noodling between takes on the session tapes, when available. You hear exactly what they're doing and often can spot what instruments they're playing. That is the only way I heard the "missing 16th note" just at the end of the WIBN intro that even the stage bands more often missed.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

The bass breaks on "Here Today", would we agree that is primarily a Fender?

Yes.

If so, we could get my Danelectro baritone to sound the same way, with the pick and the outboard effects applied. Most ears wouldn't know the difference. Which is where a thicker arrangement like those on Pet Sounds can be tricky to make a positive ID from just the final mono mixes.

I agree 100%, the most educational and informative things to hear are when the players are noodling between takes on the session tapes, when available. You hear exactly what they're doing and often can spot what instruments they're playing. That is the only way I heard the "missing 16th note" just at the end of the WIBN intro that even the stage bands more often missed.

What is this missing 16th note?  On the lower guitar you mean?  Maybe I've missed it all these years too?