Any of you audio isolation experts able to isolate the guitars on IKTAA?

[guitarfool2002]

If you go to even the first YouTube WIBN stereo backing track that comes up, the "missing" double note is there, seriously. Like those paintings you squint to see the hidden image, just tune into it a different way and you'll hear it, guaranteed.

So this is beat three of the last intro measure in the higher guitar?  So: Drum Hit on the one, two, then right on three is what we're talking about?  Or more accurately, the "e" of three.  As in, "Three-e-and-a Four-e-and-a"?

Yes. three-e-and-four-and in notes is CC D E C

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

How long would Brian have really worn those glasses for? There is an interview where he says they were fake, or just for fun. He wears them in shots from a vocal session too, do we know when/what that date was for? Is there any possibility those are from the same day or something? Just knowing Brian and all...

If I remember the glasses are seen during various Pet Sounds studio photos, I don't remember seeing him with them on too much after that, if at all.

That's why I assumed the session was either WIBN or IJWMFTT, but since the Pet Sounds era GV session was also at Gold Star, I guess it has to be that.  I had thought Brian might be dressed up for a Valentine's Day date after the session (or before) but I suppose the GV session was only two days after, so it could have been a delayed date.

[guitarfool2002]

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Proving it's Gold Star, if there was any doubt.

[Dunderhead]

Proving it's Gold Star, if there was any doubt.

Beat ya too it.

[guitarfool2002]

No doubt it was Gold Star, you can tell by those huge monitors against the back wall!

How about the "new" photo of Brian, looks to be same session, glasses, mic stand on the left of the photo, he's peering into what could be a piano or something...the way it looks.

[c-man]

And to be fair, was Wolf working from the mono masters when transcribing that?  That would be impossible for anybody to get right.  The only reason I can comfortably say it's (at least) two 12-strings is from constant listening to the complete session tape.  And even then it takes very hardcore listening, trying to make clear what is intentionally made unclear in the mix by reverb.

Well, that's what I thought too, just wanted to confirm it.  Carl DOES play the main 12-string (Brian has said it was the Ric), and I just needed confirmation that the second guitar in the intro riff was also a 12 (it was Jerry Cole, and Howard Roberts played 6-string rhythm...wonder if Wolf knows that?). 

The 'CA Girls' session was in April, right? I always thought maybe Carl used that prototype Fender XII he was playing on stage around that time, but if BW specifically remembers a Ric, I think his memory is usually pretty good with that stuff.

I think the only reason Carl used the Fender XII onstage was b/c his first Ric was stolen...he got a new one in early '65.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

No doubt it was Gold Star, you can tell by those huge monitors against the back wall!

How about the "new" photo of Brian, looks to be same session, glasses, mic stand on the left of the photo, he's peering into what could be a piano or something...the way it looks.

Yeah, great photo.  Undoubtedly the same session, and definitely new to me.  Find something a little more wide-angle and you might just find your bank account expanded.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

So do people think it's reasonable that these photos are from the 2/16/66 GV tracking session?

[Dunderhead]

Could Brian have been dressed up specifically for the photos? As in they were promo shots?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Could Brian have been dressed up specifically for the photos? As in they were promo shots?

Seems unlikely that they'd rent the studio time, throw up a bunch of mics, and hire Steve Douglas if it was only a promo.  But Brian might have known there'd be photographers.  That never stopped him from not dressing up before, though.

[guitarfool2002]

So do people think it's reasonable that these photos are from the 2/16/66 GV tracking session?

If the date lines up, if GV was the only tune with a definite Leslie besides the Leslie'd guitar on Pet Sounds (title track), and you'll also notice Douglas is there (of course) and what looks like a flute case is sitting on top the piano...there was flute on those earlier GV takes, correct?

I think it lines up.

[Dunderhead]

So do people think it's reasonable that these photos are from the 2/16/66 GV tracking session?

If the date lines up, if GV was the only tune with a definite Leslie besides the Leslie'd guitar on Pet Sounds (title track), and you'll also notice Douglas is there (of course) and what looks like a flute case is sitting on top the piano...there was flute on those earlier GV takes, correct?

I think it lines up.

Yeah that's a good point, the verses of the final track (with the flute) come from that first PS session.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I'm a little disappointed that it seems to be a GV session because I've prayed every night to every deity there is to see a photo from the WIBN or IJWMFTT sessions.

[guitarfool2002]

I also had a a work-in-progress copy of a song I'm working on that has prominent timbales on this reel, so I transferred a copy of it to show an example of what they sound like in this 'beach boys'-type context as well for those who are interested (reference the 'Wrecking Crew' thread). Incidentally, this track was recorded to the Ampex AG-300 8-track from Sunset Sound that I have discussed on this board in the past. The mono reference mix was done to the 440 deck.

I thought I had to towel off some salt spray from the Pacific after listening to that track! Cool sounds: Those timbales are nailing a certain vibe, I'm realizing these may have been another "secret weapon" for a lot of sessions of that time. The vibe is all there.

[guitarfool2002]

I'm a little disappointed that it seems to be a GV session because I've prayed every night to every deity there is to see a photo from the WIBN or IJWMFTT sessions.

I was surprised to find anything new from what looks to be a series of photos taken that day, if we're in agreement, that day in Feb '66 which seems to be the PS-GV session. So there is hope that these few shots came from perhaps an even larger series of photos, we'll just have to detective-work this series and see if anything else is out there.

[DonnyL]

I also had a a work-in-progress copy of a song I'm working on that has prominent timbales on this reel, so I transferred a copy of it to show an example of what they sound like in this 'beach boys'-type context as well for those who are interested (reference the 'Wrecking Crew' thread). Incidentally, this track was recorded to the Ampex AG-300 8-track from Sunset Sound that I have discussed on this board in the past. The mono reference mix was done to the 440 deck.

I thought I had to towel off some salt spray from the Pacific after listening to that track! Cool sounds: Those timbales are nailing a certain vibe, I'm realizing these may have been another "secret weapon" for a lot of sessions of that time. The vibe is all there.

Thanks, yeh I think so too. It was kind of a revelation when I got 'em. Also, California life influences the sound.

[Dunderhead]

I also had a a work-in-progress copy of a song I'm working on that has prominent timbales on this reel, so I transferred a copy of it to show an example of what they sound like in this 'beach boys'-type context as well for those who are interested (reference the 'Wrecking Crew' thread). Incidentally, this track was recorded to the Ampex AG-300 8-track from Sunset Sound that I have discussed on this board in the past. The mono reference mix was done to the 440 deck.

I thought I had to towel off some salt spray from the Pacific after listening to that track! Cool sounds: Those timbales are nailing a certain vibe, I'm realizing these may have been another "secret weapon" for a lot of sessions of that time. The vibe is all there.

Thanks, yeh I think so too. It was kind of a revelation when I got 'em. Also, California life influences the sound.

That other recording is great by the way, have you put out an album or anything? I honestly enjoyed it purely on its own merit.

[DonnyL]

I also had a a work-in-progress copy of a song I'm working on that has prominent timbales on this reel, so I transferred a copy of it to show an example of what they sound like in this 'beach boys'-type context as well for those who are interested (reference the 'Wrecking Crew' thread). Incidentally, this track was recorded to the Ampex AG-300 8-track from Sunset Sound that I have discussed on this board in the past. The mono reference mix was done to the 440 deck.

I thought I had to towel off some salt spray from the Pacific after listening to that track! Cool sounds: Those timbales are nailing a certain vibe, I'm realizing these may have been another "secret weapon" for a lot of sessions of that time. The vibe is all there.

Thanks, yeh I think so too. It was kind of a revelation when I got 'em. Also, California life influences the sound.

That other recording is great by the way, have you put out an album or anything? I honestly enjoyed it purely on its own merit.

It'll be on a new album coming out later this year (Magic Hero vs. Rock People) ... of course, it's in a rough state right now and will be refined!

Previous records here: http://trounrecords.bigcartel.com/

(PS - thanks)

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Let's talk about reverb.

I'm very interested in how they routed things.  Now, we know that the consoles had three echo sends, which would generally just follow the three main output busses, unless they patched things differently.

Now, without seeing a diagram (I do have a diagram of a Putnam console from Universal in Chicago, or maybe it was from United B...I'll have to find it) one would presume that the console had three "echo returns."  But also presumably, there would only be one mic in a chamber, and thus only one output from the chamber.  IN other words, if they sent all three echo sends to the same chamber, either the reverb would be returned to only one buss, or they could "mult" the return on a patchbay and send three identical signals back to the three busses.

This seems pretty redundant though when they were just mixing in mono. 

So, some possibilities.

1.  They'd use different chambers, EMT plates, or spring boxes.  This would make total sense.

2.  They'd only return the chamber, etc, to one buss.


This is where it would be interesting to hear isolated multitracks.  You might be able to hear some things from session tape too.  The closest I've gotten to hearing isolated multis is from the Little Girl I Once Knew session, when the middle track is omitted and the other two tracks are hard-panned.  So we have an isolated rhythm track and the isolated horns.

So if you have isolated tracks, you could hear if the reverb includes ALL the instruments, or just the instruments assigned to that track.  Do you get what I'm saying?

However, I suspect that they often did use three separate "echo" devices.  Or two, because the horns on, say, LGIOK sound pretty dry on the session tape.  This would also make sense because when they used tape slap, that would be applied to selected instruments only.

However, I can think of some interesting things you can get by playing with the balance or OOPSing the Caroline, No session tape.  In that case, it does very much sound like one track of the tape is totally dry, but it's reverb return went to another track.

What do you guys think?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

So I went back and listened to that LGIOK tape, and the horns do have a fair bit of reverb on them, but there's definitely nothing else coming through, it's all horns with some leaking in that mic, but really not much.

What's interesting is that guitars are leaking into the horn mic, meaning that they were amped.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Ah, here we go, the Motherlode.

The Console at United B.

http://www.benmook.com/tech/documents/Schematics%202/Schematics%202/PutnamConsole.pdf

[DonnyL]

Now we're talking ... this is one of my favorite things to think about ...

I feel that this is a very complex topic, and we will be asking more questions and getting very few answers!

Looking at this might help:

http://www.uaudio.com/blog/100-percent-ua-610-console/

* There were no echo returns on the individual channels? I always assumed so, but it doesn't really make practical sense when you look at similar boards. I think the echo returns are the trims on the top (or some of them? can't tell). What is the indication that there are 3 returns? 3-buss board?

* When you're talking about session tapes, are you referring to the SOT stuff? Are we 100% certain that these are 'raw' transfers, and no echo was added during this 'mix'/transfer?

* Referring to the PS Sessions box, I think all bets are off with regard to that giving us insight into the reverb situation.

* 3 sends makes sense. I don't know if they had a plate or not. I do know that some smaller studios had homebrew spring units as well. Spring gets a bad rap but I believe it can sound very close to plate and chamber if well designed.

* Tape echo was obviously used in conjunction with chamber in some cases, so there are two busses in use right there. Keep in mind you don't neccesarily need a send/return, you can just go out from the preamp (or even smaller submixer) to the chamber, then return it through any open channel. This can be done during tracking, bouncing, mixdown or any combination (all 3 if they wished!). You can do things like sending a track (or group) to the chamber, then bringing that signal back into a tape deck for delay, and simultaneously sending the original dry signal to the chamber as well. I believe this may have been done in places -- it would create a big reverb 'splash'. Mixed in subtley, maybe even this 'leslie' effect.

My conclusion: The possibilities are endless! We would be left to guess based on listening. I would even bet that there was not even a 'standard' for this stuff, since Brian was pioneering some of these methods.

[c-man]

Let's talk about reverb.

I'm very interested in how they routed things.  Now, we know that the consoles had three echo sends, which would generally just follow the three main output busses, unless they patched things differently.

Now, without seeing a diagram (I do have a diagram of a Putnam console from Universal in Chicago, or maybe it was from United B...I'll have to find it) one would presume that the console had three "echo returns."  But also presumably, there would only be one mic in a chamber, and thus only one output from the chamber.  IN other words, if they sent all three echo sends to the same chamber, either the reverb would be returned to only one buss, or they could "mult" the return on a patchbay and send three identical signals back to the three busses.

This seems pretty redundant though when they were just mixing in mono. 

So, some possibilities.

1.  They'd use different chambers, EMT plates, or spring boxes.  This would make total sense.

2.  They'd only return the chamber, etc, to one buss.


This is where it would be interesting to hear isolated multitracks.  You might be able to hear some things from session tape too.  The closest I've gotten to hearing isolated multis is from the Little Girl I Once Knew session, when the middle track is omitted and the other two tracks are hard-panned.  So we have an isolated rhythm track and the isolated horns.

So if you have isolated tracks, you could hear if the reverb includes ALL the instruments, or just the instruments assigned to that track.  Do you get what I'm saying?

However, I suspect that they often did use three separate "echo" devices.  Or two, because the horns on, say, LGIOK sound pretty dry on the session tape.  This would also make sense because when they used tape slap, that would be applied to selected instruments only.

However, I can think of some interesting things you can get by playing with the balance or OOPSing the Caroline, No session tape.  In that case, it does very much sound like one track of the tape is totally dry, but it's reverb return went to another track.

What do you guys think?

Didn't some of those studios (like Western and Capitol, not sure about Gold Star or Sunset) have more than one echo chamber?  They'd almost have to, if they were doing multiple sessions at the same time in different rooms.

[DonnyL]

Ah, here we go, the Motherlode.

The Console at United B.

http://www.benmook.com/tech/documents/Schematics%202/Schematics%202/PutnamConsole.pdf

ok, looking through it --

Echo (send) levels on all 12 channels, three individual echo output (busses?), two returns (modifiable to 3).

Not related to reverb, but relevant: In an old issue of 'Mix' Magazine from 1996, Mark Linnett mentioned that 176 limiters were patched to the output of the board and the signal went through the circutry even if bypassed. I'm going from memory, so I'll have to dig it out to confirm.