Any of you audio isolation experts able to isolate the guitars on IKTAA?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I might add that in the recently unearthed film from the GV tracking session, there are two "overheads" on Hal.  That's at Western.  I've been trying to identify what mics they are with no success.  I'd also like to ID the mic on Lyle's bass.  I wonder if how many mics went over the drums depended a little bit on how many instruments were playing and thus how scare input channels were. 

Cool pictures of drum mics at old Wrecking Crew sessions - looks like they had the overhead very close in to the kit compared to what we might expect today with pairs of overheads...?

Yes, that's true, because the mic isn't really an "overhead" as such.  Now-a-days, overheads are there for cymbals and a little bit of overall kit.  Especially for Brian's stuff, there's really very little cymbals involved, and they would have wanted it as close to the snare and toms as possible to get focus, but back just far enough to pick up the cymbals if they were used.  Different functions.

[DonnyL]

I might add that in the recently unearthed film from the GV tracking session, there are two "overheads" on Hal.  That's at Western.  I've been trying to identify what mics they are with no success.  I'd also like to ID the mic on Lyle's bass.  I wonder if how many mics went over the drums depended a little bit on how many instruments were playing and thus how scare input channels were.  

Cool pictures of drum mics at old Wrecking Crew sessions - looks like they had the overhead very close in to the kit compared to what we might expect today with pairs of overheads...?

Yes, that's true, because the mic isn't really an "overhead" as such.  Now-a-days, overheads are there for cymbals and a little bit of overall kit.  Especially for Brian's stuff, there's really very little cymbals involved, and they would have wanted it as close to the snare and toms as possible to get focus, but back just far enough to pick up the cymbals if they were used.  Different functions.

Those drum mics on 'GV' look very strange. My first guess was some kind of AKG dynamics, but I can't find any that look like these. No guess as to Lyle's mic either (can't really see it).

I've seen photos where they have 3-4 mics on the kit but not sure what sessions, maybe a little later. Personally, I think the fewer you can get a good sound with, the better.

[c-man]

Think I may have sussed out the basses on "GOK"...I was listening to the stereo mix in my car this morning (from the "Summer Love Songs" comp), and noticed how the bass starts heavy (in the intro), then for the first half of the first verse becomes "lighter".  In that first half-verse, I can distinctly hear the string bass and what I assume is the Dano (with a bit of tic-tac applied), playing the same line.  Then, in the second half of the first verse, the bass sound gets "heavy" again, as if the Fender joined in.  Things stay pretty much the same through the rest of the songs, until the tag, where it gets "light" again for the first round, then "heavy" again for the rest of the tag & fade. 

Switching to "Kiss Me Baby", I noticed that for most of the song, there's a slight "warble" in the bass tone (not the attack, just the decay), as if two electric basses were playing, but there is a line or two ("then I wondered", etc.) where there seems to be just one electric bass.  Maybe one drops out there, and on the parts where both play, maybe somethnig was done to diminish the attack on one or both electric basses (for instance, if they were played with a thumb instead of a pick), so the variance is only heard in the decay.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Think I may have sussed out the basses on "GOK"...I was listening to the stereo mix in my car this morning (from the "Summer Love Songs" comp), and noticed how the bass starts heavy (in the intro), then for the first half of the first verse becomes "lighter".  In that first half-verse, I can distinctly hear the string bass and what I assume is the Dano (with a bit of tic-tac applied), playing the same line.  Then, in the second half of the first verse, the bass sound gets "heavy" again, as if the Fender joined in.  Things stay pretty much the same through the rest of the songs, until the tag, where it gets "light" again for the first round, then "heavy" again for the rest of the tag & fade. 

Switching to "Kiss Me Baby", I noticed that for most of the song, there's a slight "warble" in the bass tone (not the attack, just the decay), as if two electric basses were playing, but there is a line or two ("then I wondered", etc.) where there seems to be just one electric bass.  Maybe one drops out there, and on the parts where both play, maybe somethnig was done to diminish the attack on one or both electric basses (for instance, if they were played with a thumb instead of a pick), so the variance is only heard in the decay.

The string bass is tacet for the entire first verse.  I think the lightness and heaviness is possibly due to the electric bass player, be it a dano or fender, descending from a different register of the neck and down to the lower strings.

I've started to formulate a hypothesis which sounds crazy, but who knows?

I'm wondering if they somehow split the string bass signal, or miked it twice or something.  On the multitracks, the string bass has its own track.  There's nothing else on it.  Even with a giant session with a live string quartet, one instrument still got its own track.  If you listen to that lone track, which you can do by using audio tricks, you can hear a lot of woodiness, fingerboard, string noise, etc. 

Then, if you listen to the other track that has bass on it, there's the high electric bass plus this sound that is very much akin to the more usual string bass sound Brian used--lighter in the mix, less woody, more bassy.  But it still sounds like String Bass.  Maybe they miked the string bass twice or multed it, or something, and Brian asked Chuck to put the woodier sound on its own track because it was out of the ordinary and he wasn't sure how much he'd end up wanting?

If there are only two basses, that would free up, presumably, Carol to play guitar, if Carl was not actually there, which we're not sure about.  The fact is, somebody had to play guitar, and if Carl couldn't make it in, it'd have to be Carol, really, according to the AFM lineup.

Oh, to know.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Kiss me, Baby is definitely two Fender Basses, is my opinion.  Ray might have been playing with his thumb, as Carol says he was wont to do at times.

[bgas]

Think I may have sussed out the basses on "GOK"...I was listening to the stereo mix in my car this morning (from the "Summer Love Songs" comp), and noticed how the bass starts heavy (in the intro), then for the first half of the first verse becomes "lighter".  In that first half-verse, I can distinctly hear the string bass and what I assume is the Dano (with a bit of tic-tac applied), playing the same line.  Then, in the second half of the first verse, the bass sound gets "heavy" again, as if the Fender joined in.  Things stay pretty much the same through the rest of the songs, until the tag, where it gets "light" again for the first round, then "heavy" again for the rest of the tag & fade.  

Switching to "Kiss Me Baby", I noticed that for most of the song, there's a slight "warble" in the bass tone (not the attack, just the decay), as if two electric basses were playing, but there is a line or two ("then I wondered", etc.) where there seems to be just one electric bass.  Maybe one drops out there, and on the parts where both play, maybe somethnig was done to diminish the attack on one or both electric basses (for instance, if they were played with a thumb instead of a pick), so the variance is only heard in the decay.

The string bass is tacet for the entire first verse.  I think the lightness and heaviness is possibly due to the electric bass player, be it a dano or fender, descending from a different register of the neck and down to the lower strings.

I've started to formulate a hypothesis which sounds crazy, but who knows?

I'm wondering if they somehow split the string bass signal, or miked it twice or something.  On the multitracks, the string bass has its own track.  There's nothing else on it.  Even with a giant session with a live string quartet, one instrument still got its own track.  If you listen to that lone track, which you can do by using audio tricks, you can hear a lot of woodiness, fingerboard, string noise, etc.  

Then, if you listen to the other track that has bass on it, there's the high electric bass plus this sound that is very much akin to the more usual string bass sound Brian used--lighter in the mix, less woody, more bassy.  But it still sounds like String Bass.  Maybe they miked the string bass twice or multed it, or something, and Brian asked Chuck to put the woodier sound on its own track because it was out of the ordinary and he wasn't sure how much he'd end up wanting?

If there are only two basses, that would free up, presumably, Carol to play guitar, if Carl was not actually there, which we're not sure about.  The fact is, somebody had to play guitar, and if Carl couldn't make it in, it'd have to be Carol, really, according to the AFM lineup.

Oh, to know.

This will most likely sound stupid, but...  
Why not simply ask Carol if she remembers what she played on the song. Whichever instrument she claims to be playing, will be a lie

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Think I may have sussed out the basses on "GOK"...I was listening to the stereo mix in my car this morning (from the "Summer Love Songs" comp), and noticed how the bass starts heavy (in the intro), then for the first half of the first verse becomes "lighter".  In that first half-verse, I can distinctly hear the string bass and what I assume is the Dano (with a bit of tic-tac applied), playing the same line.  Then, in the second half of the first verse, the bass sound gets "heavy" again, as if the Fender joined in.  Things stay pretty much the same through the rest of the songs, until the tag, where it gets "light" again for the first round, then "heavy" again for the rest of the tag & fade.  

Switching to "Kiss Me Baby", I noticed that for most of the song, there's a slight "warble" in the bass tone (not the attack, just the decay), as if two electric basses were playing, but there is a line or two ("then I wondered", etc.) where there seems to be just one electric bass.  Maybe one drops out there, and on the parts where both play, maybe somethnig was done to diminish the attack on one or both electric basses (for instance, if they were played with a thumb instead of a pick), so the variance is only heard in the decay.

The string bass is tacet for the entire first verse.  I think the lightness and heaviness is possibly due to the electric bass player, be it a dano or fender, descending from a different register of the neck and down to the lower strings.

I've started to formulate a hypothesis which sounds crazy, but who knows?

I'm wondering if they somehow split the string bass signal, or miked it twice or something.  On the multitracks, the string bass has its own track.  There's nothing else on it.  Even with a giant session with a live string quartet, one instrument still got its own track.  If you listen to that lone track, which you can do by using audio tricks, you can hear a lot of woodiness, fingerboard, string noise, etc.  

Then, if you listen to the other track that has bass on it, there's the high electric bass plus this sound that is very much akin to the more usual string bass sound Brian used--lighter in the mix, less woody, more bassy.  But it still sounds like String Bass.  Maybe they miked the string bass twice or multed it, or something, and Brian asked Chuck to put the woodier sound on its own track because it was out of the ordinary and he wasn't sure how much he'd end up wanting?

If there are only two basses, that would free up, presumably, Carol to play guitar, if Carl was not actually there, which we're not sure about.  The fact is, somebody had to play guitar, and if Carl couldn't make it in, it'd have to be Carol, really, according to the AFM lineup.

Oh, to know.

This will most likely sound stupid, but...  
Why not simply ask Carol if she remembers what she played on the song. Whichever instrument she claims to be playing, will be a lie

Oh, she's been asked many times, claiming Fender Bass.

[DonnyL]

Is GOK 3 or 4-track?

My take on it:

If there is a Danelectro in there (Pohlman?), I think it's not doing 'bass' work, maybe some guitar-ish stuff buried in the mix. The strong mid/hi bass sound is the Fender (I think Carol).

It's positively bizarre that the string bass has it's own track. It's astoundingly quiet on the take. I think this means it's an overdub. And I think it's nearly unfathomable (though possible, particularly in light of the experimental nature of Brian's approach) that a string bass would be overdubbed to it's own track, unless ...

*There was something wrong with the original take*

My guess is that they recorded the live group take, including the string bass (left a track open as usual), then realized that they didn't get the string bass loud (or deep) enough. So they had Lyle overdub another take.

Which means we may actually have four basses on there!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Is GOK 3 or 4-track?

4 track, but the live track was cut to three track and the fourth was a reference mono mix.

My take on it:

If there is a Danelectro in there (Pohlman?), I think it's not doing 'bass' work, maybe some guitar-ish stuff buried in the mix. The strong mid/hi bass sound is the Fender (I think Carol).

There's no such stuff buried in the mix.  I agree that the higher electric bass is probably a fender rather than a dano, but if there is a second electric bass, it's playing the bass line.

It's positively bizarre that the string bass has it's own track. It's astoundingly quiet on the take. I think this means it's an overdub. And I think it's nearly unfathomable (though possible, particularly in light of the experimental nature of Brian's approach) that a string bass would be overdubbed to it's own track, unless ...

*There was something wrong with the original take*

My guess is that they recorded the live group take, including the string bass (left a track open as usual), then realized that they didn't get the string bass loud (or deep) enough. So they had Lyle overdub another take.

Which means we may actually have four basses on there!

That's interesting, however I'm pretty sure that bass is present during the whole rehearsal tape and the actual takes.  They would not overdub onto bad takes, that's a huge waste of money.  I'd have to play around with the session tape to be sure.  That would explain why you can hear string bass on two tracks and they sound totally different.  A very novel theory.  Time to hit the tape.

[DonnyL]

Is GOK 3 or 4-track?

4 track, but the live track was cut to three track and the fourth was a reference mono mix.

My take on it:

If there is a Danelectro in there (Pohlman?), I think it's not doing 'bass' work, maybe some guitar-ish stuff buried in the mix. The strong mid/hi bass sound is the Fender (I think Carol).

There's no such stuff buried in the mix.  I agree that the higher electric bass is probably a fender rather than a dano, but if there is a second electric bass, it's playing the bass line.

It's positively bizarre that the string bass has it's own track. It's astoundingly quiet on the take. I think this means it's an overdub. And I think it's nearly unfathomable (though possible, particularly in light of the experimental nature of Brian's approach) that a string bass would be overdubbed to it's own track, unless ...

*There was something wrong with the original take*

My guess is that they recorded the live group take, including the string bass (left a track open as usual), then realized that they didn't get the string bass loud (or deep) enough. So they had Lyle overdub another take.

Which means we may actually have four basses on there!

That's interesting, however I'm pretty sure that bass is present during the whole rehearsal tape and the actual takes.  They would not overdub onto bad takes, that's a huge waste of money.  I'd have to play around with the session tape to be sure.  That would explain why you can hear string bass on two tracks and they sound totally different.  A very novel theory.  Time to hit the tape.

You're considering Dano an 'electric bass', right? I mean, they used it more like a baritone or guitar-oriented sound in 'Dance Dance Dance'. It could be doing something like a muted, guitar-chord thing?

Right, the bass would be present during the rehearsal. But perhaps it didn't have the deep effect Brian was looking for. Like, it was a great take, everything was good, they called it and used it. Then after folks were setting up to go home, during a playback, Brian decided he wanted more bass (or a different texture of bass) in the track.

The end result would be subtle. But Brian was all about subtlety.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

In my opinion, after reviewing the tapes, I don't think there's a string bass overdub.  I mean, it's impossible to tell these things without hearing absolutely raw multitracks, but, while it is quiet on the bass track there's all kinds of totally dry room sound on the other instruments that you can hear on the track.  It doesn't sound like headphone bleed, it sounds like instruments playing in a room.  Plus, it does sound like that same bass is there throughout the session, and as I said, they wouldn't have brought the guy in to overdub the session, he'd only do that master take.

I still think there's something weird going on, though.  What would be great, not on the string bass issue, but on the overall bass issue, would be to know for sure whether Carl was there or not.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Come back to the board, Mark!

[DonnyL]

In my opinion, after reviewing the tapes, I don't think there's a string bass overdub.  I mean, it's impossible to tell these things without hearing absolutely raw multitracks, but, while it is quiet on the bass track there's all kinds of totally dry room sound on the other instruments that you can hear on the track.  It doesn't sound like headphone bleed, it sounds like instruments playing in a room.  Plus, it does sound like that same bass is there throughout the session, and as I said, they wouldn't have brought the guy in to overdub the session, he'd only do that master take.

I still think there's something weird going on, though.  What would be great, not on the string bass issue, but on the overall bass issue, would be to know for sure whether Carl was there or not.

It sounds to me like an overdub with the track playing over speakers, what do you think? I just can't imagine it could be so isolated in that small space.

Anyway, my theory goes like this:

* Full session is recorded. Lyle plays bass. Live mix sounds good. Perfect take completed.

* BW decides during playback that he wants more string bass, or a deeper character. Lyle overdubs the part (same session), maybe the track is played through the monitors not too loud.

It's hard to fathom why this would be on it's own track?!? Also doesn't seem like we would hear so much of the string bass in the other tracks, but so little of the other instruments on the string bass track.

BUT

since the bleed is dry, and reverb is (likely?) on the multis, then it can't be an overdub.

So, why isolate the string bass ?!?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

In my opinion, after reviewing the tapes, I don't think there's a string bass overdub.  I mean, it's impossible to tell these things without hearing absolutely raw multitracks, but, while it is quiet on the bass track there's all kinds of totally dry room sound on the other instruments that you can hear on the track.  It doesn't sound like headphone bleed, it sounds like instruments playing in a room.  Plus, it does sound like that same bass is there throughout the session, and as I said, they wouldn't have brought the guy in to overdub the session, he'd only do that master take.

I still think there's something weird going on, though.  What would be great, not on the string bass issue, but on the overall bass issue, would be to know for sure whether Carl was there or not.

It sounds to me like an overdub with the track playing over speakers, what do you think? I just can't imagine it could be so isolated in that small space.

Anyway, my theory goes like this:

* Full session is recorded. Lyle plays bass. Live mix sounds good. Perfect take completed.

* BW decides during playback that he wants more string bass, or a deeper character. Lyle overdubs the part (same session), maybe the track is played through the monitors not too loud.

It's hard to fathom why this would be on it's own track?!? Also doesn't seem like we would hear so much of the string bass in the other tracks, but so little of the other instruments on the string bass track.

BUT

since the bleed is dry, and reverb is (likely?) on the multis, then it can't be an overdub.

So, why isolate the string bass ?!?

It doesn't really sound that isolated to me.  I mean, it is pretty isolated, but with a Shure 55 or something on the bass behind a big fat gobo, it should sound that way.

But the ultimate question really is this one:

"Also doesn't seem like we would hear so much of the string bass in the other tracks, but so little of the other instruments on the string bass track."

And indeed, why give the thing it's own track when it was such a large session?

Here's another thing to throw out there.  In both the Pet Sounds box set credits, and in Badman's book, The basic track is indicated as being recorded on March 8--but the 9th apparently has some record of an overdub.  Both sources say that the strings were overdubbed, and Badman lists the string quintet as the musicians present.  But you can tell as clear as day from the session tape that the string players were live at the session. 

So perhaps there WAS an overdub.  Really weird.

Anybody have the documentation for this?  I don't seem to.

[DonnyL]

I mean, it is pretty isolated, but with a Shure 55 or something on the bass behind a big fat gobo, it should sound that way.

Yes, and it would sound this way as well if it were playing on the studio speakers instead of phones.

The problem with that is it is totally dry on the playback. But the basic track is essentially just a 2-track spread. Assuming the echo and delay is printed to the tracks? Sounds like it is, but we're listening to the 5.1 isolates ... was GOK on the SOT set?

Yeh seriously, on what was probably the largest (?) live session for Pet Sounds, you use only 2 tracks of a 4-track and the third one for one of three basses? Really doesn't make sense!

Is there any possibility that this session tape is a bounce from another tape?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I mean, it is pretty isolated, but with a Shure 55 or something on the bass behind a big fat gobo, it should sound that way.

Yes, and it would sound this way as well if it were playing on the studio speakers instead of phones.

The problem with that is it is totally dry on the playback. But the basic track is essentially just a 2-track spread. Assuming the echo and delay is printed to the tracks? Sounds like it is, but we're listening to the 5.1 isolates ... was GOK on the SOT set?

Yeh seriously, on what was probably the largest (?) live session for Pet Sounds, you use only 2 tracks of a 4-track and the third one for one of three basses? Really doesn't make sense!

Is there any possibility that this session tape is a bounce from another tape?

It would be the first time I had ever heard of such a thing, and there's certainly no tape record of it.  It would be an aberration for them to bounce down a three-track session tape to two tracks, they always, to my memory, bounced those down to mono.  See Sloop or Pet Sounds, for instance.

GOK is indeed on the SOT set, and I've listened to the whole damn session more times than I care to think about.  I remember after getting the Pet Sounds set, I would listen to each session over and over again with a notebook.  I would loop small sections and just let these two-second clips run over and over again.  Oh, the countless hours.  And yet here we are still puzzling over specifics.  There's definitely a point of diminishing returns.

[DonnyL]

I mean, it is pretty isolated, but with a Shure 55 or something on the bass behind a big fat gobo, it should sound that way.

Yes, and it would sound this way as well if it were playing on the studio speakers instead of phones.

The problem with that is it is totally dry on the playback. But the basic track is essentially just a 2-track spread. Assuming the echo and delay is printed to the tracks? Sounds like it is, but we're listening to the 5.1 isolates ... was GOK on the SOT set?

Yeh seriously, on what was probably the largest (?) live session for Pet Sounds, you use only 2 tracks of a 4-track and the third one for one of three basses? Really doesn't make sense!

Is there any possibility that this session tape is a bounce from another tape?

It would be the first time I had ever heard of such a thing, and there's certainly no tape record of it.  It would be an aberration for them to bounce down a three-track session tape to two tracks, they always, to my memory, bounced those down to mono.  See Sloop or Pet Sounds, for instance.

GOK is indeed on the SOT set, and I've listened to the whole damn session more times than I care to think about.  I remember after getting the Pet Sounds set, I would listen to each session over and over again with a notebook.  I would loop small sections and just let these two-second clips run over and over again.  Oh, the countless hours.  And yet here we are still puzzling over specifics.  There's definitely a point of diminishing returns.

yeh, that's what I thought.

so the echo and delay are present on the SOT tracks, sounding similar to the 5.1 tracks and the mono final?

hmm ... head scratcher ... what was the overdub then?

personally, I would love to hear a complete set of these 4th track reference mixes.

Are we stupid idiots ?!?

Maybe no one really knows this stuff, and no one has ever seemed to think that it matters much.

I think I've trained my ears to hear things I wouldn't have known a few years ago. A lot of it comes from trying to copy elements of these records.

[c-man]

So the slight tic-tac I hear on the first verse (it kind of blends with the clip-clop percussion, but it's distinct enough to hear)...would that not be on the Dano bass?

[DonnyL]

So the slight tic-tac I hear on the first verse (it kind of blends with the clip-clop percussion, but it's distinct enough to hear)...would that not be on the Dano bass?

I hear it as regular Fender Bass, but it's almost impossible to know for sure just by listening. And I feel like if there were two basses (Fender and Dano) doubling up here, it would lose some of that quality of 'presence' that is so prominent.

Josh?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

So the slight tic-tac I hear on the first verse (it kind of blends with the clip-clop percussion, but it's distinct enough to hear)...would that not be on the Dano bass?

I hear it as regular Fender Bass, but it's almost impossible to know for sure just by listening. And I feel like if there were two basses (Fender and Dano) doubling up here, it would lose some of that quality of 'presence' that is so prominent.

Josh?

The problem with knowing for sure is that Ray has it so heavily palm-muted that it takes most of the natural character out of the instrument.  To me, up higher it sounds very choked indeed, which is what would happen playing a Fender up beyond the 12th fret with heavy palm muting.  If it were a Dano, with its two extra strings, you wouldn't be playing as high on the neck, which in turn would sound slightly less choked.

[Foster's Freeze]

Wow, what a great thread this is (was)!  It took a long time to read but well worth it.

Thanks guys!

[c-man]

Wow, what a great thread this is (was)!  It took a long time to read but well worth it.

Thanks guys!

Uh, yeah, like over a year, apparently!

[c-man]

Josh, regarding GOK you wrote: <<Here's another thing to throw out there.  In both the Pet Sounds box set credits, and in Badman's book, The basic track is indicated as being recorded on March 8--but the 9th apparently has some record of an overdub.  Both sources say that the strings were overdubbed, and Badman lists the string quintet as the musicians present.  But you can tell as clear as day from the session tape that the string players were live at the session.>> 

The date in the Pet Sounds box set credits reads "March 10", and a notation says the session started at midnight. It does not say anything about more strings being overdubbed on that song, at least not in the main credits section.

Badman has the basic track happening on the 8th with the strings, and additional strings being overdubbed on the 9th. But Badman's wrong. Sadly, one of many examples!

[DonnyL]

I might add that in the recently unearthed film from the GV tracking session, there are two "overheads" on Hal.  That's at Western.  I've been trying to identify what mics they are with no success.  I'd also like to ID the mic on Lyle's bass.  I wonder if how many mics went over the drums depended a little bit on how many instruments were playing and thus how scare input channels were.  

Since this thread is alive again, I'd like to add for posterity that I figured out through some correspondence with Bones Howe that Hal's overheads are Sennheiser 405s.

We were actually talking about Mamas & Papas sessions ... cool thing there is his setup seems to have always been the same, and he has a great memory.

[Tricycle Rider]

Perhaps I should do a track-by-track run-down.

Certainly would be of interest to most here I'd say.

You can count me as one of those interested!