Any of you audio isolation experts able to isolate the guitars on IKTAA?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I have been fascinated with the figure the guitars are playing on I Know There's an Answer from the first time I heard it.  Recently I was attempting to transcribe what the second, higher guitar is playing but it's not quite as audible and doesn't play its line in between takes like the lower one.  Is it possible to get them isolated or is that too hard?

If anybody feels that they have properly transcribed that part, I'd be interested to consult it.  I would post my tentative transcription as well, if anybody would be interested in seeing it, though it is in notation rather than tab.

I wouldn't mind starting a discussion on the genius of the guitar arrangements on Pet Sounds, either, if anybody feels like discussing that.

[DonnyL]

I have been fascinated with the figure the guitars are playing on I Know There's an Answer from the first time I heard it.  Recently I was attempting to transcribe what the second, higher guitar is playing but it's not quite as audible and doesn't play it's line in between takes like the lower one.  Is it possible to get them isolated or is that too hard?

If anybody feels that they have properly transcribed that part, I'd be interested to consult it.  I would post my tentative transcription as well, if anybody would be interested in seeing it, though it is in notation rather than tab.

I wouldn't mind starting a discussion on the genius of the guitar arrangements on Pet Sounds, either, if anybody feels like discussing that.

Can't help you with this, but the biggest compliment I can pay to the guitars on Pet Sounds is this: There are guitars on Pet Sounds? The whole thing is out of this world. It's all just outer space sounds to me.

BW has noted that Friends was the first album in which the musicians didn't make any mistakes. I always wondered what the 'mistakes' are on the back tracks of Pet Sounds.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

...

the biggest compliment I can pay to the guitars on Pet Sounds is this: There are guitars on Pet Sounds? The whole thing is out of this world. It's all just outer space sounds to me.

...

Right, the guitars are used, like no BB album before or after, in a truly orchestral manner.  There is very, very little strumming.  Most of it is 12-strings playing up high, or doing interesting single-line stuff.  Perhaps I should do a track-by-track run-down.

[EgoHanger1966]

Maybe "mistakes" as in, one of the Wrecking Crew played something differently than Brian envisioned, and Brian said, "no, keep it! I like that". I know I've heard at least one instance of that on SoTs, and I think this must have happened at some point during the PS sessions.

[DonnyL]

Maybe "mistakes" as in, one of the Wrecking Crew played something differently than Brian envisioned, and Brian said, "no, keep it! I like that". I know I've heard at least one instance of that on SoTs, and I think this must have happened at some point during the PS sessions.

I'm sure that is the case as well, but being that BW could still identify PS as having 'mistakes' leads me to believe there are audible things there that he didn't want or doesn't like. Assuming everything else was great with the take and it had the right feel, he probably accepted little things that were not perfect. No way we could know what they are I suppose. I mean, you can tell there are vocal things that are not quite 100% (like some of the backing vocals on 'Wouldn't It Be Nice'), chatter that wasn't mixed out, and engineering problems (clipping/distortion on 'Here Today') ... but I wonder about performance mistakes in the tracks. not to derail the thread!

[DonnyL]

Perhaps I should do a track-by-track run-down.

Certainly would be of interest to most here I'd say.

[guitarfool2002]

I'm not saying this is true for all the tracks, obviously, but in a few cases there really is a "strumming" guitar playing the traditional role of an archtop acoustic in a jazz band, but it got buried in the mix, especially in mono. In some cases it's all but inaudible but is still there.

It's a similar thing that happened on many, many big band jazz recordings and performances - the acoustic archtop strumming got buried unless the rhythm section got featured on a chorus, or unless it was Count Basie's band where the absolute master of that style Freddie Green played within the arrangements so well that you could hear his part - somehow - despite the rest of the band. How many 30's/40's/50's big band recordings are there where you can actually hear that rhythm guitar? Yet almost every dance band had one.

There is that one BW example I mentioned on Donny L's question about percussion on the title track, where in one of the breakdowns of that song you can hear a very faint acoustic guitar strumming away, in typical jazz band fashion. That guitar was playing almost the whole time, but it's all but lost in the band.  In the final mix you can feel those parts more that actually hear them.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

OK, so here it goes.  If a mod thinks a separate thread is appropriate feel free to make one.


Pet Sounds Guitars.

1.  Wouldn't It Be Nice

There are four guitars on WIBN.  Although we've yet to definitively identify the exact nature of the guitars used in the intro and bridge, it is safe to say they are some kind of electric 12-strings.  These guitars play two interlocking, single-note figures, and are key to the whole arrangement.

There is, unusually for the album, a strummed guitar.  I've always thought it was some kind of jazz box acoustic.  It is there more for texture than any sort of chordal definition.  It is probably the closest thing to how a guitar would traditionally be used for such a song.

The fourth guitar is a Danelectro 6-string bass, which alternates between doubling the basses at the octave, and doubling them at pitch during the bridge.  It is a great demonstration of two different uses for the instrument within the same song, acting more like a guitar during the verses, and adding great heft to the bassline in the bridge.

2.  You Still Believe in Me

As far as I can tell, there are two 12-strings here also, playing very much in the same register as the WIBN intro guitars.  They play a figure during the verses that mirrors the group vocals in the "choruses" and the tag.  In many ways, it's sort of a model for the whole idea of guitars for the album.  They play melodies that interact with the lead vocal, very much like a violin line interacting with the vocal in, say, an operatic excerpt.

3.  That's Not Me

Here we have the main guitar acting very much as a bassline, and in fact the overdubbed basses do for the most part double the guitar line.  Carl's guitar, probably a Strat or his Jaguar is kind of dialed in to a surfy kind of sound, with the treble and reverb.  But again, no strumming, no chords.  It's an active line that provides a harmonic structure with movement.

The overdubbed 12-strings simply add a melodic answer to the vocal.

4.  Don't Talk

Here's the template again, the two 12-strings playing melodic lines to complement the vocal.  Not much else to say.

5.  IWFTD

This is a more typical use of guitar.  Likely Carl on Rickenbacker, the guitar strums.  However, there is something about the timbre of it that led Carol Kaye and the Liner Notes people to conclude there is a ukulele on the track, which there isn't,  So even the pretty normal strummed guitar kind of thing is slightly off.

6.  LGAFA

Very contrasting guitars on this.  A strummed acoustic guitar, which is quite rare indeed on Pet Sounds, adds chordal support.  And then at the end, the slide guitar adds the Hawaiian feel.

7.  Sloop John B

The quintessential guitar arrangement.  Also tricky to figure out all the elements.

Obviously, we have, on the basic track, the two electric 12s playing their figures, and then Billy Strange famously overdubbed a third 12-string part.  These high arpeggios lend a shimmer to the arrangement, while the somewhat twangy lower 12-string plays a strangely nautical figure.

The confusion comes though the presence of Al Casey in the credits.  The guitarists present were Jerry Cole, Billy Strange, and Al Casey.  Presumably Jerry and Billy played the 12-strings.  I had wanted to think that Casey played a Dano bass, because the bass line is so massive and fat, I figured there were three basses.  But then Al Casey put out an album in which he covers Sloop John, and recounts that he played acoustic guitar on the session.  If you listen closely to the session, you can hear the very faint echos of a piano pounding the chords, and if you just listen hard enough, there might just be an acoustic guitar mixed in there.  It's a very Spectorian thing, where the instruments are not really audible but "there."

I'd like to hear alternate theories about this.

8. GOK

Another puzzler for me.  Carl is on 12-string, probably Rickenbacker, and he's sharply strumming the chords in the second and third verses.  But it's very well blended into the keyboard sound, so they become like one thing, a sum of their parts.

The question for me has always been whether there is a Danelectro bass on this, or possibly a second Fender Bass.  Both Carol and Ray Pohlman are on the AFM, but I have yet to definitively hear the presence of two separate electric basses.  But the song is another example of a conventional guitar use transformed by the production into something more special.

9.  IKTAA

As Mentioned above, this is back to the template of two 12s playing high.  I would love to know how Brian and the guitarists put this together.  It's a tricky arpeggio with some dissonances with the underlying chords.  It is also interesting to note that the line was altered between the first takes and the last, when Brian was still experimenting with the arrangement.  This is one where you wish tape was rolling the whole time they were fooling around with the arrangement.  It's such a great use of guitars.  I expect that it was possible only because of the abilities and sensibilities of Kessel and Glen Campbell.  I'm not sure if it's something a non-guitar player would stumble upon.

10.  Here Today

Another very sort of conventional use of guitars, strumming away during the choruses.  It's an acoustic 12 and an electric 12 just strumming full on chords, and relatively high in the mix.  Perhaps the least interesting guitar track of the whole album.

11.  IJWMFTT

Originally, Glen Campbell was playing banjo on this, before Brian asked him to switch to a "Jazz Box."  The Jazz Box strums along pretty conventionally.  The other guitar is an electric 12 string played by Barney Kessel.  It's a little tough to pick out exactly what it's doing, but at times it is adding strange dissonances.  In particular, during the "each time things start to happen again" section, it harps on a particularly dissonant note  Very subtle guitar arrangement there.

12.  The basic track features a standard electric 6-string, sounds like it could be a telecaster, playing the surfy repeated D/Eb figure.  And then the doubled lead guitar is on there too, of course, with the tremolo/leslie effect.  And as Craig mentioned, there's the very, very soft acoustic guitar accents during the "bongo" section.  This guitar is actually not there the whole time, it was inserted just in those spots, as the UM tapes prove.

13.  Caroline No

Two electric 12s again.  One of these plays rich jazz chords, the other serves almost as a cello, adding low counterpoint to the vocal in single-note lines.



That's a very simple, off the top of my head run down.  Discuss.

[guitarfool2002]

I hear more strumming on various tracks, as mentioned before: That acoustic part isn't listed on the PS title track (#12).

I even hear a faintly strummed acoustic part blending in on IKTAA, but I'm conceding that it may be my ears hearing one of the keyboard parts that way. Or not...short of having the full tapes it's tough to be sure.

Also PS title track is definitely a Leslie, not an amp tremolo: On the sessions you can hear the speaker rotating and rumbling around the cabinet before the track starts, 100% Leslie on that lead overdub.

[guitarfool2002]

Question: How many tracks did Tommy Tedesco play on the album?

I ask that because Tommy himself said he did a lot of archtop rhythm on this kind of date, and in researching Barney Kessel he also picked up a lot of dates on rock/pop sessions playing just archtop rhythm guitar, i.e. "easy money".

It's very interesting that Barney Kessel played so many of the 12-string electric parts - that was not what he was usually called to do.

And Glen Campbell couldn't read standard notation too far beyond chord charts, yet he and Barney (who was among the best readers in LA) worked out that complex 12-string duet on IKTAA and played it together. Interesting. It begs the question again - did Brian or the guitarists come up with those figures?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I hear more strumming on various tracks, as mentioned before: That acoustic part isn't listed on the PS title track (#12).

I even hear a faintly strummed acoustic part blending in on IKTAA, but I'm conceding that it may be my ears hearing one of the keyboard parts that way. Or not...short of having the full tapes it's tough to be sure.

Also PS title track is definitely a Leslie, not an amp tremolo: On the sessions you can hear the speaker rotating and rumbling around the cabinet before the track starts, 100% Leslie on that lead overdub.

I corrected to add the acoustic part on PS the track.  For some reason I always assumed amp tremolo on PS until the leslie discussion came up earlier, and then it was like, duh.  It is very noisy before the track starts, indeed.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Question: How many tracks did Tommy Tedesco play on the album?

I ask that because Tommy himself said he did a lot of archtop rhythm on this kind of date, and in researching Barney Kessel he also picked up a lot of dates on rock/pop sessions playing just archtop rhythm guitar, i.e. "easy money".

It's very interesting that Barney Kessel played so many of the 12-string electric parts - that was not what he was usually called to do.

And Glen Campbell couldn't read standard notation too far beyond chord charts, yet he and Barney (who was among the best readers in LA) worked out that complex 12-string duet on IKTAA and played it together. Interesting. It begs the question again - did Brian or the guitarists come up with those figures?

As far as I know, Tommy was just on the one.

I have always been fascinated by the Kessel/Campbell pairing on the album too.  They show up a lot together.  Must have been quite the pair.  On IKTAA, I think Barney's probably playing the more active lower line and Glen the upper line.  But who knows?  The lower line is really interesting.  It's pretty guitaristic, but still not necessarily something the hand just falls into playing.  It would definitely have taken some thought.

The credits don't really add up to their being strummed guitar on IKTAA.  There is the banjo of course, overdubbed.

[DonnyL]

great work man!

- Sloop -- I think worth mentioning is that we have a confirmed guitar model on this one (Billy Strange playing the Fender Electric XII), one of the only instances where we can say fairly certainly what the model is. Since it was one of the early tracks, there is a possibility that he used it on other tracks on the album as well. My best guess for the other electric 12-strings would be Gibson ES-335-12 or the similar Epiphone model, unless Carl was playing, in which case it would most likely be the Ric (as you noted).

No guess on the acoustic in there. I suppose I always kind of assumed there was one in there, but I can't hear it.

Don't think there is anything more than a Fender bass on this one. Notice the lack of low-end on the last chorus. If a string bass were present, I feel like we would hear a lot more deepness. Don't hear a Dano in there.

- GOK -- My theory on the basses here is that there is a string bass doubling the Fender bass.  Don't hear a baritone in here either.

- Here Today -- Not that you mentioned in either way, but I think the bass (played high like a baritone) is a Fender bass, not a Dano. Danos sound thin/weedy/phasey.

- Caroline -- I hear the Dano 6-str. bass in there ... no ?

One of these days I'm going to have to get around to trying to put together something on all of the keyboards used through the '60s-'70s. I know I've mentioned this before, but it's a real challenge!

[DonnyL]

re: subtle acoustic strumming -- I think it's almost impossible to tell for sure, because the way they would be used is like some kind of soft percussion.

[guitarfool2002]

Apart from the Fender Electric XII which I believe became the standard, go-to electric 12 for the studio players, I've most often seen them pictured with a Danelectro 12-string, like the "Bellzouki" Tommy is pictured with in one well-known photo. For tuning and intonation reasons alone, there is no doubt in my mind why the Fender XII was so popular. I don't recall Glen or Barney or really any of the WC pictured playing a Gibson or Epiphone 12-string electric in the 60's, although Glen had a thing with Mosrite and I believe he played on of their 12-strings later on in the 60's.

And if anecdotal evidence adds up to an educated guess, all of these guitarists who had Danelectro models from the Bellzouki to the Baritone had them modified in some ways for better intonation, playability, stability, etc. I believe very few if any of them were the models which came directly off the rack by the time we heard them on these recordings, because Danelectros were notorious for silly features like that block-of-wood bridge which I've heard certain WC members replaced with a metal piece.

Actually, I'd love to compile a list of modifications to these guitars and basses, because consider this one fact:

Is there any audible hum or buzzing from these instruments during the sessions? Cram all those guitars and basses into a control room, onto a studio floor, etc...do we hear any of the usual hum and buzz from those single-coil pickups? I don't recall any session mentioning this common issue. Amazing.

Or just good modifications to prevent it...Too bad Red Rhodes isn't around to ask, apparently he did a majority of this kind of work in LA for guitarists.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Apart from the Fender Electric XII which I believe became the standard, go-to electric 12 for the studio players, I've most often seen them pictured with a Danelectro 12-string, like the "Bellzouki" Tommy is pictured with in one well-known photo. For tuning and intonation reasons alone, there is no doubt in my mind why the Fender XII was so popular. I don't recall Glen or Barney or really any of the WC pictured playing a Gibson or Epiphone 12-string electric in the 60's, although Glen had a thing with Mosrite and I believe he played on of their 12-strings later on in the 60's.

And if anecdotal evidence adds up to an educated guess, all of these guitarists who had Danelectro models from the Bellzouki to the Baritone had them modified in some ways for better intonation, playability, stability, etc. I believe very few if any of them were the models which came directly off the rack by the time we heard them on these recordings, because Danelectros were notorious for silly features like that block-of-wood bridge which I've heard certain WC members replaced with a metal piece.

Actually, I'd love to compile a list of modifications to these guitars and basses, because consider this one fact:

Is there any audible hum or buzzing from these instruments during the sessions? Cram all those guitars and basses into a control room, onto a studio floor, etc...do we hear any of the usual hum and buzz from those single-coil pickups? I don't recall any session mentioning this common issue. Amazing.

Or just good modifications to prevent it...Too bad Red Rhodes isn't around to ask, apparently he did a majority of this kind of work in LA for guitarists.

Yeah, it is truly amazing how quiet it was considering all those amps and single-coils.  Ridiculous, really.

I think the Mosrite might have been more popular than we think.  Glen definitely used one, and that photo I posted a few days ago showed Billy Strange playing what looked to be a Mosrite 12.  It would be interesting to know.  I wish I had the money to compare the sound of some different 12 strings.  The Bellzoukis are all over ebay at the moment.

[DonnyL]

Hmm, yeh I forgot about the Dano 12s and the Mosrite. I guess the Gibson 335-12 was pretty high-end, and these guys probably just used 12 strings for 'teenage' dates, so the Danos would make more sense. So strange that there are so few photos around!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

great work man!

- Sloop -- I think worth mentioning is that we have a confirmed guitar model on this one (Billy Strange playing the Fender Electric XII), one of the only instances where we can say fairly certainly what the model is. Since it was one of the early tracks, there is a possibility that he used it on other tracks on the album as well. My best guess for the other electric 12-strings would be Gibson ES-335-12 or the similar Epiphone model, unless Carl was playing, in which case it would most likely be the Ric (as you noted).

No guess on the acoustic in there. I suppose I always kind of assumed there was one in there, but I can't hear it.

Don't think there is anything more than a Fender bass on this one. Notice the lack of low-end on the last chorus. If a string bass were present, I feel like we would hear a lot more deepness. Don't hear a Dano in there.

- GOK -- My theory on the basses here is that there is a string bass doubling the Fender bass.  Don't hear a baritone in here either.

- Here Today -- Not that you mentioned in either way, but I think the bass (played high like a baritone) is a Fender bass, not a Dano. Danos sound thin/weedy/phasey.

- Caroline -- I hear the Dano 6-str. bass in there ... no ?

One of these days I'm going to have to get around to trying to put together something on all of the keyboards used through the '60s-'70s. I know I've mentioned this before, but it's a real challenge!

Well, there's definitely String Bass on every Pet Sounds track except for That's Not Me.  Usually just doubling the Fender.  Lyle's on the Sheets and you can hear him prominently between takes on both Sloop John and GOK.  Berghoffer is on IJWMFTT.  There's no question about that.  I do wonder about second electric basses on GOK, IWFTD, and Sloop in particular.  I agree that Here Today is a Fender.  I suspect IJWMFTT is too.  Caroline No definitely sounds like a dano, though it's overdubbed.  That's Not me might also be two danos or a Fender and a Dano.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I've thrown together a hasty recording of IKTAA's guitar parts.

http://www.reverbnation.com/aeijtzsche/song/15914457-iktaa

Go there and click on IKTAA.

I included a bassline to give a harmonic reference.  Forgive my use of a POD to USB garage band recording, the latency of everything makes it sound out of sync.

What do you think?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Also, please forgive me that I don't have an electric 12-string and had to use a 6.

[guitarfool2002]

The funny thing is that Glen became sort of known for 12-string guitar, he had that album called "The Astounding 12 String Guitar Of Glen Campbell" as one of his very early solo releases 63-64, I think it became a bit of a calling card for him. If a producer needed a 12-string player, and you had an album in front of you with that title, you'd call that guy, right?

What I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to know for sure, 100% sure with proof, is who played 12-string acoustic lead on Burl Ives' "Holly Jolly Christmas". It's mixed in 60's stereo, and you can isolate the part with a balance knob...and that part is incredible, just amazing, one of my favorites ever. If it were recorded in LA, Glen would be my guess, if in Nashville, I have no idea.

If anyone would have a Gibson it would have been Barney Kessel, since he not only had an endorsement with them but also they had his signature model guitar in the stores, he could have requested any model from them. Yet for non-jazz electric parts, he almost always used a Telecaster, for Baritone parts or tic-tac he used a Danelectro (even though Gibson made one too), and for 12-string I think he may have gone with Fender or Danelectro.

[guitarfool2002]

I've thrown together a hasty recording of IKTAA's guitar parts.

http://www.reverbnation.com/aeijtzsche/song/15914457-iktaa

Go there and click on IKTAA.

I included a bassline to give a harmonic reference.  Forgive my use of a POD to USB garage band recording, the latency of everything makes it sound out of sync.

What do you think?

That sounds pretty darned close to the original voicings! Nice stuff!

It strikes me how the louder part is pulling from the same guitar-centic well of exercises and chord arpeggios that Slash would later use to create the famous Sweet Child O' Mine intro hook, and I say that being 100% serious.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

It is interesting how little photography of 12-string electrics have turned up.  I mean, there's never enough 60s studio photography for me, but we do have some great photos of Barney with his Tele, Pitman with his Dano, Tedesco with his stuff.  There is the one photo of Tedesco with the Bellzouki, I suppose.  We do know that Jan Berry called for that specific guitar on TAAACSCBRATA, so that could be a clue.  Then there's the photos of the Mosrites I mentioned.  Would somebody have a look at that photo in the wrecking crew thread and see if you agree Billy's playing a Mosrite?

But I've never seen a studio photo of a WC guitarist playing a Fender XII.

[DonnyL]

the part sounds close to me. the sound itself ... as you noted, not so much! what exactly is latency?

[guitarfool2002]

It is interesting how little photography of 12-string electrics have turned up.  I mean, there's never enough 60s studio photography for me, but we do have some great photos of Barney with his Tele, Pitman with his Dano, Tedesco with his stuff.  There is the one photo of Tedesco with the Bellzouki, I suppose.  We do know that Jan Berry called for that specific guitar on TAAACSCBRATA, so that could be a clue.  Then there's the photos of the Mosrites I mentioned.  Would somebody have a look at that photo in the wrecking crew thread and see if you agree Billy's playing a Mosrite?

But I've never seen a studio photo of a WC guitarist playing a Fender XII.

I saw the mid-60's Fender hardshell bass case at Billy's feet first! That guitar, though...I can't tell, can't even venture a guess (pun). If the headstock is any indication it could be a Mosrite, I just can't tell.

The Fender XII info is anecdotal/circumstantial. Two of the most famous 12-stringers not named George Harrison: I know Jimmy Page used one on studio sessions and later on his own Led Zep tracks (not the more famous Gibson doubleneck), I know McGuinn had and used the Fender occasionally in the studio despite being known for the Rick 12, and I've heard the Fenders were simply more reliable 12-string electric guitars although a bit more expensive. As far as photo evidence, there is none I can think of - it's all interview and anecdotal stuff.