Brian to play with Al and David, July in Ohio

[Cam Mott]

I don't think the license existed before Carl's passing. When Carl was alive, the deal was they had to have a minimum number of Beach Boys principals onstage, according to their contracts. The number used to be 4, but was reduced to 3 at some point in the '90s.

Brian, Al, and David playing shows together is welcome news.

Right, so the trademark resided with BRI but there was no license yet, it was still a BRI boardmember consensus thing.

[Cam Mott]

As for your comments regarding Al, I will second the wise words of Mr. Aniversario instead of doing more of the Mike/Al debate with you. A flashback to our discussions of literally now over a decade ago might be fun for nostalgia, but Eric's words are much more apt. We get it. You're not a fan of Al's, and have your own perception of what Al did 15 years ago and what his motives were. I disagree, and even those who disagree with Al's legal points/arguments from back then don't tend to paint him as the villain you have over the years.

I haven't called anyone a villain or assassinated anyone's character. I believe everything I cited is a matter of court record and public statement by the principals but feel free to continue to draw your own conclusions and post on and on about your perceptions and suspicions, I have never and won't ask you to stop.

[HeyJude]

I haven't called anyone a villain or assassinated anyone's character. I believe everything I cited is a matter of court record and public statement by the principals but feel free to continue to draw your own conclusions and post on and on about your perceptions and suspicions, I have never and won't ask you to stop.

Edited to once again invoke Mr. Aniversario's comments. I gotta stop engaging in this. The Al/Mike debate does not need a "15th Anniversary Tour." 

[the professor]

What has happened to "as for the past, it's all behind us," and "long as we can all stay together"? Did we buy a reunion mythology akin to that of Brian's back? No quite, but I just wish they would tell us something about unity and harmony in 2013, despite the various separate shows here and there. . .

[Dave Modny]

I think the incentive to have the license reside with one BRI member [and that member being Mike] was probably driven by Al's unilateral power grab trying to push through a series of concerts which neither Brian or Mike agreed to and Al allegedly trying to replace Mike with Peter Cetera.

Okay, I'll admit I was pretty much out of the Beach Boys Universe for the good part of a decade, and thus, I'm not up-to-date on every last morsel of in-fighting. But...what the hell was this all about?  Someone needs to fill me in on the particulars. Preferably from all sides.


Next, you're going to tell me that John Stamos was "looking" to replace Bruce with the guys from Air Supply!

[Mikie]

What Ontor said. 

[Cam Mott]

I think the incentive to have the license reside with one BRI member [and that member being Mike] was probably driven by Al's unilateral power grab trying to push through a series of concerts which neither Brian or Mike agreed to and Al allegedly trying to replace Mike with Peter Cetera.

Okay, I'll admit I was pretty much out of the Beach Boys Universe for the good part of a decade, and thus, I'm not up-to-date on every last morsel of in-fighting. But...what the hell was this all about?  Someone needs to fill me in on the particulars. Preferably from all sides.


Next, you're going to tell me that John Stamos was "looking" to replace Bruce with the guys from Air Supply!

I would but I'm forbidden. I think it was Blondie who wanted to replace David with that other guy from the Archies.

[SMiLE Brian]

What Ontor said. 

Agreed, 

[HeyJude]

I think the incentive to have the license reside with one BRI member [and that member being Mike] was probably driven by Al's unilateral power grab trying to push through a series of concerts which neither Brian or Mike agreed to and Al allegedly trying to replace Mike with Peter Cetera.

Okay, I'll admit I was pretty much out of the Beach Boys Universe for the good part of a decade, and thus, I'm not up-to-date on every last morsel of in-fighting. But...what the hell was this all about?  Someone needs to fill me in on the particulars. Preferably from all sides.


Next, you're going to tell me that John Stamos was "looking" to replace Bruce with the guys from Air Supply!

I've heard this story bandied about for some time, but I don't know the original source for it. I would imagine it's not completely fabricated, but the whole thing has always sounded to me about as plausible as the time during the "Get Back/Let It Be" sessions where George walked out and John mentioned getting Eric Clapton or Jimi Hendrix, etc.

Al did mention in the "Goldmine" interview from 2000 that he had the idea to do some sort of symphonic tour in the late 90's with Brian involved, but as with many of his sort of off-the-cuff ideas thrown around, nobody else seemed interested. Even Al's own comments in that interview made him sound kind of comically tragic in that nobody seemed to take his idea seriously. The idea of course ironically happened in a different variation with Brian's PS tours and whatnot.

Not sure where the Cetera bit came from. I don't know if that was part of the same story, where Al wanted Cetera in the hypothetical symphonic tour because Mike wasn't interested.

I certainly don't buy the idea that Al ever thought he could "replace" Mike with Cetera permanently and continue on as the Beach Boys. This was the same Al who knew the score when David Marks started playing gigs with them; Al knew then that he had no power in the whole situation, either because of his own doing or the doing of others.

[KittyKat]

The older I get, the more all of these guys annoy me. Not just Mike, but Brian, too. I don't really enjoy Brian and his hand gestures or his pitchy singing that much, and he often looks like he doesn't want to be there. The argument that Brian really enjoys performing because he smiles every once in a while (between grimacing and staring blankly) reminds me of adults arguing over a baby's facial expression -- is the baby smiling because he's really happy, or is it that he just passed a gas bubble?

Let me put it this way, if I go to a Brian/Al/David show, I'll go for Al and David.

[Dave Modny]

I think the incentive to have the license reside with one BRI member [and that member being Mike] was probably driven by Al's unilateral power grab trying to push through a series of concerts which neither Brian or Mike agreed to and Al allegedly trying to replace Mike with Peter Cetera.

Okay, I'll admit I was pretty much out of the Beach Boys Universe for the good part of a decade, and thus, I'm not up-to-date on every last morsel of in-fighting. But...what the hell was this all about?  Someone needs to fill me in on the particulars. Preferably from all sides.


Next, you're going to tell me that John Stamos was "looking" to replace Bruce with the guys from Air Supply!

I've heard this story bandied about for some time, but I don't know the original source for it. I would imagine it's not completely fabricated, but the whole thing has always sounded to me about as plausible as the time during the "Get Back/Let It Be" sessions where George walked out and John mentioned getting Eric Clapton or Jimi Hendrix, etc.

Al did mention in the "Goldmine" interview from 2000 that he had the idea to do some sort of symphonic tour in the late 90's with Brian involved, but as with many of his sort of off-the-cuff ideas thrown around, nobody else seemed interested. Even Al's own comments in that interview made him sound kind of comically tragic in that nobody seemed to take his idea seriously. The idea of course ironically happened in a different variation with Brian's PS tours and whatnot.

Not sure where the Cetera bit came from. I don't know if that was part of the same story, where Al wanted Cetera in the hypothetical symphonic tour because Mike wasn't interested.

I certainly don't buy the idea that Al ever thought he could "replace" Mike with Cetera permanently and continue on as the Beach Boys. This was the same Al who knew the score when David Marks started playing gigs with them; Al knew then that he had no power in the whole situation, either because of his own doing or the doing of others.

Thanks, Jude.

I mean, I could slightly envision a universe where Cetera could sing *Carl's* parts in some sort of post-Carl configuration, but "replacing" an active Mike.....?

[Cam Mott]

In a December 2004 MOJO article Bill Holdership said Mike alleged it:

"Love reserves most of his current animosity for the other living original Beach Boy, Al Jardine, who he alleges tried to orchestrate a Beach Boys symphonic tour with Peter Cetera and Brian – but without Mike – the week Carl Wilson died from lung cancer in 1998. There's a snide quality in his voice but still no real sense of anger. 'Carl was always the mediator in The Beach Boys, so his absence created a very big void. I didn't feel like continuing with Al after that,  so that launched the whole thing where Al went off and did his own thing and I did mine with Bruce. It definitely created a schism which has lasted to this day. Alan has repeatedly brought lawsuits against Brother Records. But we've been successful at defending ourselves and so his antagonistic approach hasn't gotten him anywhere.'"

Here Al's side from Goldmine:

So what prompted your decision to stop touring with Love's version of the Beach Boys?

We had a symphony tour lined up for the United States. Lots of interested symphonies that could give our music a breadth and depth that we didn't have before and give them a little extra business they needed. A lot of symphonies were going bankrupt. For instance the San Diego Symphony was in a desperate state, and we were going to do our rehearsal concert there in San Diego. They would get one and we would get one. That kind of deal where they get one for their coffers and we'd get a chance to rehearse and get it underway. And then go to the Hollywood Bowl, get that wonderful place sold out and take it from there all over the country. Carry our charts with us and give them to all the different symphonies.

What happened?

Love steadfastly refused to do it. He insisted that Brian be there, I remember that remark which is not all wrong. I don't disagree with that. It would be great if Brian could be everywhere, but we all have to be realistic. He's not going to be predictable that way. He's got only so much energy for that kind of work. He's not built for it.

Brian never liked to tour.

I think Brian was designing our songs back in the day so we wouldn't have to be dependent on him. Anyway, I suggested that he conduct the concert at the Hollywood Bowl. I thought it would be neat if he could come out and take some credit for all that great work. Anyway, that wasn't to be. Mike refused to do it. I think it would've been a great tribute to Carl. It would have been built around the music, not the messenger. It wouldn't have been built around any one of us.

After Carl passed away, you were still in the band and then decided to leave the Love touring lineup sometime after that.

Right. It became one of those moments. Love continued to tour. He didn't stop touring. He just didn't want to tour in that modality. That wasn't his idea of "fun, fun, fun." [laughs] So he continued to work with his band, The California Beach Band, and he would go out and do dates and have surrogate singers do Carl's parts. I thought that was tasteless. While at the same time not going out with the Beach Boys because of Carl's passing so there's some kind of contradiction in that, in my opinion. In fact, my son Matthew at the time was still in that employ, which I did not disagree with because I don't want him to not be able to earn a living. But at some point it got uncomfortable.

So at what point did you pack it in with that lineup?

When Mike refused to tour with the Beach Boys. He just refused to tour with us in any fashion. I can't go into detail with you right now, [but] it got reorganized where Love took the band with an exclusive license and I didn't. And Bruce decided to go with the guy who sang all the hits. Matthew had to make some decisions of his own. We decided to form this entity - Beach Boys, Family And Friends, which I felt would more accurately define the harmonies and the vitality of what was missing in the waning years of the band.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

So he continued to work with his band, The California Beach Band, and he would go out and do dates and have surrogate singers do Carl's parts. I thought that was tasteless. While at the same time not going out with the Beach Boys because of Carl's passing so there's some kind of contradiction in that, in my opinion.

Wait...so having other people do Carl's parts in a band not named the Beach Boys is tasteless, but touring as the Beach Boys with other people doing Carl's parts was okay to Al back then? And then Al doing another group with the Beach Boys name partially attached to it and having other people doing Carl's parts is suddenly okay to Al when he himself does it?

I...have no words.

[Dave Modny]

In a December 2004 MOJO article Bill Holdership said Mike alleged it:

"Love reserves most of his current animosity for the other living original Beach Boy, Al Jardine, who he alleges tried to orchestrate a Beach Boys symphonic tour with Peter Cetera and Brian – but without Mike – the week Carl Wilson died from lung cancer in 1998. There's a snide quality in his voice but still no real sense of anger. 'Carl was always the mediator in The Beach Boys, so his absence created a very big void. I didn't feel like continuing with Al after that,  so that launched the whole thing where Al went off and did his own thing and I did mine with Bruce. It definitely created a schism which has lasted to this day. Alan has repeatedly brought lawsuits against Brother Records. But we've been successful at defending ourselves and so his antagonistic approach hasn't gotten him anywhere.'"

Here Al's side from Goldmine:

So what prompted your decision to stop touring with Love's version of the Beach Boys?

We had a symphony tour lined up for the United States. Lots of interested symphonies that could give our music a breadth and depth that we didn't have before and give them a little extra business they needed. A lot of symphonies were going bankrupt. For instance the San Diego Symphony was in a desperate state, and we were going to do our rehearsal concert there in San Diego. They would get one and we would get one. That kind of deal where they get one for their coffers and we'd get a chance to rehearse and get it underway. And then go to the Hollywood Bowl, get that wonderful place sold out and take it from there all over the country. Carry our charts with us and give them to all the different symphonies.

What happened?

Love steadfastly refused to do it. He insisted that Brian be there, I remember that remark which is not all wrong. I don't disagree with that. It would be great if Brian could be everywhere, but we all have to be realistic. He's not going to be predictable that way. He's got only so much energy for that kind of work. He's not built for it.

Brian never liked to tour.

I think Brian was designing our songs back in the day so we wouldn't have to be dependent on him. Anyway, I suggested that he conduct the concert at the Hollywood Bowl. I thought it would be neat if he could come out and take some credit for all that great work. Anyway, that wasn't to be. Mike refused to do it. I think it would've been a great tribute to Carl. It would have been built around the music, not the messenger. It wouldn't have been built around any one of us.

After Carl passed away, you were still in the band and then decided to leave the Love touring lineup sometime after that.

Right. It became one of those moments. Love continued to tour. He didn't stop touring. He just didn't want to tour in that modality. That wasn't his idea of "fun, fun, fun." [laughs] So he continued to work with his band, The California Beach Band, and he would go out and do dates and have surrogate singers do Carl's parts. I thought that was tasteless. While at the same time not going out with the Beach Boys because of Carl's passing so there's some kind of contradiction in that, in my opinion. In fact, my son Matthew at the time was still in that employ, which I did not disagree with because I don't want him to not be able to earn a living. But at some point it got uncomfortable.

So at what point did you pack it in with that lineup?

When Mike refused to tour with the Beach Boys. He just refused to tour with us in any fashion. I can't go into detail with you right now, [but] it got reorganized where Love took the band with an exclusive license and I didn't. And Bruce decided to go with the guy who sang all the hits. Matthew had to make some decisions of his own. We decided to form this entity - Beach Boys, Family And Friends, which I felt would more accurately define the harmonies and the vitality of what was missing in the waning years of the band.

Thanks for the direct quotes. I think I actually have that issue of Goldmine somewhere. Is it the one where Al says something to the effect of Mike "never meeting a hook he didn't like."?

Reading the above now, it all seems a bit blurry and vague, and also seems to imply that this was all lined-up as Carl, not to put it coldly, wasn't going to be returning to the stage. Thus, I wouldn't simply call it a unilateral move without Carl and Brian's approval. And, despite the animosity on both sides at the time these interviews were given, I can't really believe that Al ever envisioned PC -- or any guest singer for that matter -- as a *direct* replacement for Mike.  Now, if Mike was *unwilling* to tour...

[Wah Wah Wah Ooooo]

Al Jardine is a strange man, that's for sure.  

Consistency is not something I would use to describe any member of The Beach Boys.

[HeyJude]

In a December 2004 MOJO article Bill Holdership said Mike alleged it:

Here Al's side from Goldmine:

The reprint of those comments is much appreciated. I don't think those comments, which at best amount to a he said-he said situation, indicate a characterization such as "Al allegedly trying to replace Mike with Peter Cetera" as if it was done at the exclusion of a willing Mike.

Al seems to say he wanted Mike and Mike didn't want to do it. Mike seems to say Al tried to do a tour without him (Mike), but doesn't indicate whether he was offered the chance to do the tour in the first place. All of that, coupled with my own sense of logic that Al would, in my opinion, have at least tried to include Mike in such a Beach Boys tour, leads me to believe that there was never any attempt to involuntarily eject Mike from the band or even any such individual project.  We also don't even know if some theoretical show featuring Al, Brian, and Peter Cetera would have even been billed or attempted to be billed as a "Beach Boys" concert.

Further, if this really did take place literally during the weeks leading up up to Carl's passing, then all of that happened after the events of 1997. If the Stebbins/Marks book and Peter Ames Carlin's books are to be believed, Mike had already been trying to edge Al out of the band before 1998 and the supposed proposed symphonic tour. Carlin's book alleges Mike tried to get Al out of the band as early as 1990.

[HeyJude]

Wait...so having other people do Carl's parts in a band not named the Beach Boys is tasteless, but touring as the Beach Boys with other people doing Carl's parts was okay to Al back then? And then Al doing another group with the Beach Boys name partially attached to it and having other people doing Carl's parts is suddenly okay to Al when he himself does it?

I...have no words.

I do think Al was being selectively critical of having surrogate singers do Carl's parts, but I always took part of Al's feelings about showing respect for Carl to be, in part, related to how soon after Carl's passing this all was happening. I think even in 1998 he would not have completely closed the door on doing some Carl-less BB activities at some point, but maybe just not mere months after his death. Just a guess though. As for Al's band, whether you believe he was justified or not, he never billed his band as "The Beach Boys", and specifically saw the "Beach Boys Family & Friends" as an offshoot band. He was having "surrogate" singers do everybody's parts but his own in that band. His band wasn't the "Beach Boys", so no such standard needed to be applied.

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that the only Beach Boys shows Al did in 1998 after Carl's passing were shows he was contractually obligated to do. It may have been as few as two shows if Eric's earlier comments are correct.

[HeyJude]

Consistency is not something I would use to describe any member of The Beach Boys.

Very true. Al and the rest have all given us some head-scratching comments and reasoning over the years. 

[AndrewHickey]

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that the only Beach Boys shows Al did in 1998 after Carl's passing were shows he was contractually obligated to do. It may have been as few as two shows if Eric's earlier comments are correct.

It was two shows, yes. The second and last was a benefit for the Barbara Ann Karmanos cancer centre, in early June 1998 -- rather fittingly the last real "Beach Boys" show for 14 years was on the same day as Brian's first solo performance, for the Imagination TV special taping. Bruce actually appeared at both shows on the same day.

Mike, Bruce and David had already done at least one show as "The Beach Boys" without Al before that, a corporate gig for Toyota. Their first public show as The Beach Boys came just over a month later.

[Andrew G. Doe]

May, not June -

3 - Ritz Carlton Buckhead, Atlanta GA (private show)
6 - Kentucky Horse Park, Lexington KY  (private show - no Alan)
9 - American Cancer Society Benefit, Detroit MI

[tpesky]

To respond to an earlier post, I think Al found it distasteful to get someone to Carl's parts in a different formation of the  band while he was still alive and suffering with cancer, not after he was dead.

[Cam Mott]

The addition of Al's activities reported by the courts move the benefit of the doubt meter way toward the low end for me.

[Eric Aniversario]

It was two shows, yes. The second and last was a benefit for the Barbara Ann Karmanos cancer centre, in early June 1998 -- rather fittingly the last real "Beach Boys" show for 14 years was on the same day as Brian's first solo performance, for the Imagination TV special taping. Bruce actually appeared at both shows on the same day.

Wow, that's kind of cool!  Big day for Bruce, I wasn't aware that those happened on the same day.

[filledeplage]

It was two shows, yes. The second and last was a benefit for the Barbara Ann Karmanos cancer centre, in early June 1998 -- rather fittingly the last real "Beach Boys" show for 14 years was on the same day as Brian's first solo performance, for the Imagination TV special taping. Bruce actually appeared at both shows on the same day.

Wow, that's kind of cool!  Big day for Bruce, I wasn't aware that those happened on the same day.

Barry Manilow was on Katie Couric today and talked about "I Write the Songs," and the author, Bruce, whose photo with Mike was flashed on the screen with a Beach Boys mention. Barry talked about the inspiration of the process of composing music as the essence of the song. 

[AndrewHickey]

May, not June -

3 - Ritz Carlton Buckhead, Atlanta GA (private show)
6 - Kentucky Horse Park, Lexington KY  (private show - no Alan)
9 - American Cancer Society Benefit, Detroit MI

My mistake -- I was going from memory and I could have sworn the TV show taping was closer to the release date of Imagination.