Socialism In France -- People Flee. What?

[Bean Bag]

If people pay their taxes into the welfare state, as everyone does (including you, TRBB, I assume) they should have the assurance of those benefits if and when they fall upon hard times...

Politicians are not the nation's brightest.  Especially as financial advisers/investors.  They should not be trusted.  If assurance of benefits is all you seek -- great, we're in business -- cuz there's better ways to provide this safety net.

FUN FACT:  Statist/Marxist/Communists really just want assurance of power, not assurance of benefits distribution.  Their goals don't align with your stated goal.

Yeah, so call me Comrade Hypehat.

Don't give in so easily.  Marxists' the world over get aroused and tingly over such submissive behavior.

What I'm trying to get you to think about is, why should these corporations, and merchant bankers, not abide by the law and pay their taxes when we do? What makes them above the law?

Short answer -- they're not above the law.

Every major corporation has the legal resources to avoid paying where they don't have to -- legally.  The law has holes, it's not a flat tax.  It's a maze of laws created by "not the nation's brightest."  Politicians.  Tax law has things called deductions.  They're legal.  The Board and the financial/tax people at a corporation are usually risk adverse and wouldn't gamble on "not paying."

But most importantly -- what taxes they do pay, they don't pay.  You pay.  People pay taxes.  Corporations either raise the cost of their product or take it from employees paychecks.  It's not some philosophical debate.  You can't tax "a thing."  Just the people that use it or work at the thing.  You can't tax "a thing."  Just like you can't talk to "a thing" or shake "a thing's" hand.  Call up Nike or Pepsi... and if you hear a booming disembodied voice that says "Hello HypeHat... this is Pepsi," I'll buy lunch.

What makes them different to you?

Them is not a "them."  It's a thing.  Them is "a thing."  You and me -- and the people that work at a company -- are people.  You've been lied to by liberals.

... the businesses don't like to pay their tax. Because they are divorced from real life...

Yes.  They're divorced from real life because they're not a "life."  And for thinking they are -- you're divorced from reality.  But today's a new day...

it will continue to unless people start giving a sh*t about who is playing the system. It sure as f*** ain't the government...

HypeHat, it is.  The media helps them... but the people running government are stealing, burning our money.  Until people understand what folks like me are trying to tell folks like you -- yes, it will continue.  We need to come together and vote them into retirement.  Hating me prolongs it.

Any notion that people don't work hard enough for a living is noxious and foul, everyone works hard to live.

Reality is at times "noxious and foul."  Sure, people work hard.  But there's a growing number being subsidized with the fruits of others' labor.  I think that stinks.

[hypehat]

George Monbiot says things that I have been trying to say itt

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/14/neoliberal-theory-economic-failure

With regards to me own views, just because one government (or indeed, the neo-liberal strain that's dominated since Thatcher) is spectacularly shite doesn't mean I write off all government and embrace the corporate 'anarchism' TRBB suggests, for instance.

Your strange line of debate trying to abstract the fact that bankers and corporate CEOs (y'know, people)  seek to avoid any notion of taxation, even on the bonuses they give themselves.

But most importantly -- what taxes they do pay, they don't pay.  You pay.  People pay taxes. 

]

Does this sound right to you? Or do you applaud their rugged individualism whilst (at least over here) the govt cut benefits to the working poor and laugh? (no kidding. They laughed. Odious posh bastards)

[Bean Bag]

Oh good heavens Hypehat... that article is looney tunes!  Be careful with that stuff.  That's the kind of loopy, disconnected anger and negative energy that led people into the arms of some terrible, terrible times.  Fascist dictatorships, blood in the streets.

Bare with me, this might sting...

"Before I go on, I should point out that I don't believe perpetual economic growth is either sustainable or desirable."
That is like eating poo and telling me it's a steak.  Economic growth is not desirable.  I'm glad he pointed that out before he went on.
Right there... you should know this man is either a derelict -- or he has some dastardly plan to rob the f*ck out of you.  Suspect the latter.  He's trying to convince you of something that is unnatural.  The desire to earn more money and grow.  The desire to defend oneself from harm, the desire to make today better than tomorrow, the desire for happiness, love and joy... these are natural things.

"But if growth is your aim – an aim to which every government claims to subscribe – you couldn't make a bigger mess of it than by releasing the super-rich from the constraints of democracy."
Releasing the super-rich from democracy is code for it's not their money... and your gonna help me take it.
Did you ever see those ads that ask you to send in $20 dollars and learn how to make $5000 a week from your home?  The idea being -- after your $20 life lesson, now you get to ask other saps to send in $20!  Maybe you'll make your $5000 dollars a week!

The point is this -- he's not at the top of that pyramid.  As such, neither him nor you (especially you) are going to get any of that super-rich guy's cash.  They'll tickle your fancy with "benefits."  But there's A LOT of people waiting in line.  I mean, c'mon.

[hypehat]

You sure know how not to make sense.


Again, tell me how you feel about these rich guys disobeying the rules you play by. Clearly they show the business acumen necessary to flagrantly break the law, and feel good about it due to snobbish entitlement. You haven't answered my central point all the way thru this pointless discussion - what makes them so special?

[Bean Bag]

You sure know how not to make sense.


Again, tell me how you feel about these rich guys disobeying the rules you play by. Clearly they show the business acumen necessary to flagrantly break the law, and feel good about it due to snobbish entitlement. You haven't answered my central point all the way thru this pointless discussion - what makes them so special?

You mean like Bernie Madoff?  Is that your question -- how do I feel about guys like him?  Or just rich guys in general?  And why are they special?

They're not.  I don't think anybody should be above the law.

I also don't think they should be beneath the law... and pay MORE than their fair share.  They pay all the taxes, give or take.  I think people of your line of thinking have had their way for FAR too long on these matters.  The left has been doing the gang-banging, thug routine on the rich for too long -- and lo' and behold, they're back for more!!     It's never enough.  Shocking... could this be proof I'm right Hypehat?     Think about it.

I aim to end this.  The rich ain't your money machine or punching bag.

Stealing from the rich and giving it to the government doesn't put that money in your hands.  In reality... oh so ironically ...it takes money and opportunity out of yours.  It causes LESS jobs and LESS innovation.  It equals MORE expensive goods and services for you.  I know this isn't comprehended by leftists.  They scoff at "trickle-down" economics at the hands of private citizens -- doing business freely amongst themselves.  But they see only roses and rainbows with "trickle-down" government -- a middle man of gargantuan proportions.  That's somehow better.  A giant Middle man.

Do you know how much money gets wasted and stolen by... wait for it... EVIL rich people when you launder it though the middle man of government?!!!  Huh!??!?!  Have you ever thought about that?  No.  No you haven't.  Taxing the rich is doing EVERYTHING you claim you hate.  Empowering the evil rich guys, while raping the good ones.

Put down the red pamphlets.  Walk away...

[Alex]

I agree with hypehat.

[Dunderhead]

You sure know how not to make sense.


Again, tell me how you feel about these rich guys disobeying the rules you play by. Clearly they show the business acumen necessary to flagrantly break the law, and feel good about it due to snobbish entitlement. You haven't answered my central point all the way thru this pointless discussion - what makes them so special?

So punish them. You're asking for fairness, neutrality, and impartiality, no special treatment. That's exactly what "laissez-faire" capitalism is all about, complete government neutrality in economic matters. But I don't think that's what you really want, you want intervention, you just want the intervention to favor different people than it does and punish different people than it has.
Obama chose not to punish the criminals. Period. That was his administration's policy, it was something that was entirely within the scope of his powers to deal with as he saw fit, and he gave the executives a pass. He was biased, he showed favor, he was anything but impartial. That's the way it is in modern western command economies, the root issue is constant intervention. Whenever the government intervenes it's helping someone at someone else's expense. If want to end all favoritism and see every firm within our economy treated equally under the law you need to renounce socialism.

[Awesoman]

Who exactly thinks they are owed something?

Wasn't Occupy Wall Street basically a big protest against the rich?  Like the 99% wanted a piece of the pie? 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

No it was not.... Well, that's not what the initial spark of protest was about. Not at all. You can research it and find your answers quickly.... Of course a bunch of folks got involved for the wrong reasons and ruined it though, but the idea behind the whole thing was valid.... If there's something wrong with calling out for fairness and accountability, then I'm happy to be wrong....

[Bean Bag]

I could have sworn that Occupy Wall Street was typical 'community organizer' faire.  Settin' the stage for their "Mitt Romney's a Wall-Street Evil Guy" bumper sticker & T-shirt ad campaign.  

They saw the Tea Party and sh-t their pants.  Fixated on themselves, they thought the T-Party was about them.  About Obama.  So they got the "oh-so-original idea" to stage their own.  But not in DC, man... but like... you kno,... at WALL STREET!

So they rallied up all their leftys, college-dopes and communist miscreants lookin' for a place to crash -- promising them TV time and a place to sh-t.


And that is the truth.
 

[Bean Bag]

Mickelson vows 'drastic changes'
http://msn.foxsports.com/golf/story/phil-mickelson-plans-drastic-changes-due-to-tax-situation-012013

"Phil Mickelson gave a civics lesson after his play Sunday... The lecture: I’m not going to pay more in taxes than I can take home to my wife and kids.  'If you add up all the federal and you look at the disability and the unemployment and the Social Security and the state, my tax rate is 62, 63 percent,' Mickelson said. 'I’ve got to make some decisions on what I am going to do.'

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I could have sworn that Occupy Wall Street was typical 'community organizer' faire.  Settin' the stage for their "Mitt Romney's a Wall-Street Evil Guy" bumper sticker & T-shirt ad campaign.  

They saw the Tea Party and sh-t their pants.  Fixated on themselves, they thought the T-Party was about them.  About Obama.  So they got the "oh-so-original idea" to stage their own.  But not in DC, man... but like... you kno,... at WALL STREET!

So they rallied up all their leftys, college-dopes and communist miscreants lookin' for a place to crash -- promising them TV time and a place to sh-t.


And that is the truth.
 

It is indeed PART of the truth, Mr. Bag!

How many of us actually attended any of these said demonstrations? I did in Los Angeles and I can tell you, the folks who were free to camp out in front of city hall for months on end were only able to do so because they make more money in a year than the lot of us will likely see in our lifetimes..... Of course, the squatters came along and sullied the whole thing up.... I'm not sitting here advocating any of it, just pointing out that it wasn't just a bunch of hippies and bums wanting hand-outs. I work in TV and can assure you what you see on TV is only the half of it (and that's if someone even does their homework) ..... But alas no one in this life cares to be convinced, let-alone informed of anything... We just pick a side and only let in whatever information supports this adopted viewpoint..... And that is the truth.

[Dunderhead]

Things like that make me incredibly nervous. The French Revolution in its' own way was more terrifying than a lot of the supposedly horrific things the institutions it targeted were said to have did. I feel like a lot of the sentiment is festering and I really don't want to live through that type of event so thank god "Occupy" never reached its' critical mass.

[Bean Bag]

I agree Fishmonk.  The media did its best to paint the Tea Party that way.  Radical.  Foaming at the mouth.  Hate-filled.  Irrational.  They wanted the low-information, voting public to fear the Tea Party.  While successful here and there -- they couldn't sell it.  Too out of step with reality.

But Occupy really was full of these dirt bags.  "Squatters," as Pinder pointed out.  That's why no one's sure of the point.  It was rampant with dubious goals and invidious agendas.  Terrifying shop owners, destroying public pooperty and leaving their "camp-sites" full of litter and trash.  That's their legacy.  Here's why...

The campaign's agenda (as I mentioned) was to direct public anger about the financial mess towards Wall Street Rich Guys (Romney) -- and away from D.C. (Obama), where it actually belonged.  Period.  But like flies on poop... if you're selling "HATE THE RICH"... you will also attract the scary, nasty element that Fishmonk suggested.

As for critical mass -- There are many who believe, part of Obama's agenda is to get America its critical mass of revolutionary dirt bags.  Out of work and angry at the rich.  He's certainly doing just that.  Whether intentional or not.

[SMiLE Brian]

Both tea party and OWS have nuts in their ranks.

[Bean Bag]

Yeah, but focus on reality...
The ruling class-- the elites in Washington and their protectors in the Media.  They used/created Occupy Wall Street to deflect the American people's attention away from themselves.

Hate Wall Street.  Wall Street Bad.  1%'ers.  OCCUPY!!  ...ok, but who bailed them out?  The Tea Party?  No.

It was the ruling class in Washington.  They first STOLE the money (from the people).  Then GAVE the money away.  The Tea Party had nothing to do with ANY of that.  They were the ones putting the attention on the ruling class.  The Occupiers? ...they wanted you to hate recipients.  Kind of dumb... kind of nuts...

What was the Tea Party message?  Fiscal responsibility.  Accountability of our leaders -- regardless of their party.  How does that message help anybody in power?  It doesn't.  Trust me... the Republican party HATES them, just like they hate Conservatives.  The Tea Party was regular people -- like us, sick of all the above.  Sick of getting thugged.  Sick of getting robbed.  Sick of trillions of their dollars (!!!) going to help the powerful.  Sick of no one giving a sh-t about the people.

The point is:  To say that Occupy and the Tea Party, both have nuts in their ranks, could be used as an attempt to equate the two.  Not only is that not true... but it's not helping.  Well, it's helps the elites.

[SMiLE Brian]

I have no agenda, its just common knowledge that crazy people can join mass movements.

[Bean Bag]

...I understand, it's a valid point -- as said nuts can be used by opponents to de-legitimize a movement.

My point was to highlight the content of the mass movements -- which one was or wasn't nuts.  Therefore, the nut "in the ranks" of an already nutty movement are thus the nuttlier.

[SMiLE Brian]

I mean both movements have great ideas at the beginning, (tea party- fiscal responsibility) (OWS- pointing out some glaring crimes the the Madoff types pulled on wall street) but as the movement swells, the message is lost.

[Jason]

Both the Occupy and Tea Party movements were hijacked - the former by socialists and the latter by "compassionate Christians" and neoconservatives. Both are currently disgraceful.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I agree Fishmonk.  The media did its best to paint the Tea Party that way.  Radical.  Foaming at the mouth.  Hate-filled.  Irrational.  They wanted the low-information, voting public to fear the Tea Party.  While successful here and there -- they couldn't sell it.  Too out of step with reality.

But Occupy really was full of these dirt bags.  "Squatters," as Pinder pointed out.  That's why no one's sure of the point.  It was rampant with dubious goals and invidious agendas.  Terrifying shop owners, destroying public pooperty and leaving their "camp-sites" full of litter and trash.  That's their legacy.  Here's why...

The campaign's agenda (as I mentioned) was to direct public anger about the financial mess towards Wall Street Rich Guys (Romney) -- and away from D.C. (Obama), where it actually belonged.  Period.  But like flies on poop... if you're selling "HATE THE RICH"... you will also attract the scary, nasty element that Fishmonk suggested.

As for critical mass -- There are many who believe, part of Obama's agenda is to get America its critical mass of revolutionary dirt bags.  Out of work and angry at the rich.  He's certainly doing just that.  Whether intentional or not.

Wrong Bean. It was directed at the Wall Street criminals AND D.C.....

Sometimes it seems you and Fishmonk just like to be contrary.... Which can be fun, I admit.....At least Fishmonk doesn't seem to just take any knee jerk sides. But Bean, you are a right winger. We get it. Maybe try to be less severe and obvious with it?

But I agree with the Monk Man that mass movements ect can often be more frightening than what they are supposedly up in arms about.... Oh, absolutely....

[Jason]

Said it before and will say it again - the Wall Street criminals are able to get away with what they do because the government allows them to in most cases. Proof of this is the fact that the government bailed most of them out. I'm sure Lehman Brothers wonder every day where their bailout was. Bernard Madoff probably found his prosecution by the United States government for running a Ponzi scheme ironic in the extreme, considering that the United States has run their own Ponzi scheme (Social Security) for nearly eighty years.

I went to Occupy Philadelphia for an afternoon when the whole movement was getting big. These folks did not want accountable government...at least not in the sense we're talking about here. These people wanted government as The Great Redistributor of Wealth. There were even Mao Zedong and Kim Il-sung fanatics there, believe it or not (the latter insisted that North Korea is the victim of a smear campaign and that they actually have an exemplary standard of living). My friends and I were asking them why they weren't in Washington, and they insisted that the economic crisis wasn't the government's fault. These people were also going on and on about "exploited children in China"...and EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM owned an Apple product and had one on their persons.

Needless to say, my faith in the Occupy movement was forever soured after that day. Those people don't want accountability, they want their utopian Che Guevara communist paradise. But hey...at least in Pennsylvania we can defend ourselves (for now).

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Said it before and will say it again - the Wall Street criminals are able to get away with what they do because the government allows them to in most cases. Proof of this is the fact that the government bailed most of them out. I'm sure Lehman Brothers wonder every day where their bailout was. Bernard Madoff probably found his prosecution by the United States government for running a Ponzi scheme ironic in the extreme, considering that the United States has run their own Ponzi scheme (Social Security) for nearly eighty years.

I went to Occupy Philadelphia for an afternoon when the whole movement was getting big. These folks did not want accountable government...at least not in the sense we're talking about here. These people wanted government as The Great Redistributor of Wealth. There were even Mao Zedong and Kim Il-sung fanatics there, believe it or not (the latter insisted that North Korea is the victim of a smear campaign and that they actually have an exemplary standard of living). My friends and I were asking them why they weren't in Washington, and they insisted that the economic crisis wasn't the government's fault. These people were also going on and on about "exploited children in China"...and EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM owned an Apple product and had one on their persons.

Needless to say, my faith in the Occupy movement was forever soured after that day. Those people don't want accountability, they want their utopian Che Guevara communist paradise. But hey...at least in Pennsylvania we can defend ourselves (for now).

Word. Maybe it was a bit different in LA, but just as many folks out here seemed just as pissed at the government than at the Madoff types... But alas, they were outnumbered.

And don't get me started on all the iHoles I know  

[Bean Bag]

It was directed at the Wall Street criminals AND D.C.....

Well, then great.  The cozy relationship of DC/Wall St. was part of the issue.  But they called themselves Occupy Wall Street.     (Should I vamp on the term "occupy" now?  You know how that's gonna end...  )

At least Fishmonk doesn't seem to just take any knee jerk sides.

Knee jerk?  What!? (I actually take this as a compliment.  My reactions are as fluid as a reflex, yes.  But they are very well thought out.  Poke no holes, can you?)

But Bean, you are a right winger. We get it.

Well, I don't get it.  I don't even know what a right-winger is.  I'm an artist... so I despise laws, there's way too many.  I despise the notion that every crisis not be wasted... to pass more laws.     And I despise people taking my money, and having them tell me it's good for me.  And then having others tell me I'm a "winger" to complain.  I'm not one who sees poo and tells people it's a steak.

Maybe try to be less severe and obvious with it?

Ok.  I will try to be less obvious and severe.  That just might work.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I am quite delighted with your comments.... We keep seeming to be getting somewhere, arriving at an understanding, and I dig it....

I don't like people taking my money and then telling me I have an entitlement complex if I have suggestions about what they might use it for.....