Socialism In France -- People Flee. What?

[hypehat]

A "corporate state"? Let's cut the political correctness. It's called a "fascist state".

Exactly what have I posted here would lead you to the conclusion that I advocate fascism? Corporations exist BECAUSE of government, not in spite of it. I don't push for a society run by corporations and certainly not one in which corporations and government work hand in hand, which is otherwise known as a fascist state. I don't believe in socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. I don't believe in capitalizing gains and socializing losses. I believe in capitalism for EVERYONE. I believe in HUMAN rights. You will NOT find those qualities in a fascist state.

A democratic state will only go as far as what the angry mob wants and damn the rest of them. That's not accountability. Democracy is not to be envied and certainly not to be desired. I'm an atheist in a predominantly Christian United States - those people see me as undesirable. Why the hell would I want to put faith in a majority to ensure my rights are protected? Sorry, but "consent of the governed" doesn't cut it.

To the bolded bit - Do the words 'corporate tax avoidance' mean anything to you? If anything (unless you in fact are the CEO of Amazon and moderate this board inbetween games of golf) it's the other way around - we normal working people (middle, lower, whatever) pay our full taxes and they exploit loopholes to avoid it. The numbers are ridiculous - as I repeatedly state, in Britain the  deficit and the amount of avoided corporation tax is roughly the same -  but who's going to enforce that if not a progressive government*? You probably think they're 'sticking it to the man' or something. Does pocketing vast amounts of cash (through lots of illegal means, not just tax avoidance) whilst the economy stagnates and living conditions for the majority of people decline count as heroism in your book?

This notion of yours that paying taxes somehow equals socialism is absurd. It's obeying the goshdarn law, just like you do. Unless of course, you somehow feel taxation is beneath you.

Face it, you are constantly being played by the free market. If totally deregulated, you wouldn't have a minimum wage (the right of the Tory party constantly say how this will re-energise business, which is right... if you want the workforce to live in utter poverty), health insurance policies as a perk of your job - the fact that's viewed as a perk is disgusting. Hell, the most vocal proponents of right-wing pro business agenda say Western societies should be more like China, reversing a century of progressive legislation so businesses don't have to worry about decent working conditions or decent wages. Do you agree with that?

P sure Atheists haven't been persecuted in modern American society. Or indeed, any progressive society. Bad Amazon reviews of The God Delusion don't count as evidence.

*we certainly don't have one here. I reckon you'd like Britain, our chancellor was recently caught on film getting quite excited telling big business owners how to avoid paying their taxes. And they just voted to decimate the benefits of the working poor! Your kind of place!

[Bean Bag]

we normal working people (middle, lower, whatever) pay our full taxes and they exploit loopholes to avoid it. The numbers are ridiculous...

Here in the States many/most of the country isn't paying taxes, Hypehat.  That was the genesis of Mitt Romney's 47% comment, more or less.  So yes, the "numbers are ridiculous" as you stated.

This notion of yours that paying taxes somehow equals socialism is absurd. It's obeying the goshdarn law, just like you do. Unless of course, you somehow feel taxation is beneath you.

I don't think anyone's advocating not paying taxes.  A flat tax is fair.  Is fairness beneath the Left?  What we have is wealth redistribution. Socialist voodoo.

If totally deregulated, you wouldn't have a minimum wage...

Minimum wage?    Why does the Left strut around like Mic Jagger, proudly touting the minimum wage!!  I'm sorry... but I get such a kick out of that!  

Anyway... you know what are they're paying the illegal aliens?  It's sure as hell ain't "minimum wage!" I'll tell you that much!

Basically, I would have accepted:  no man has the power to set a "minimum wage" OR  China.  There's your stickin' minimum wage!.  I also would have accepted, simply:  "Detroit."

[hypehat]

we normal working people (middle, lower, whatever) pay our full taxes and they exploit loopholes to avoid it. The numbers are ridiculous...

Here in the States many/most of the country isn't paying taxes, Hypehat.  That was the genesis of Mitt Romney's 47% comment, more or less.  So yes, the "numbers are ridiculous" as you stated.

This notion of yours that paying taxes somehow equals socialism is absurd. It's obeying the goshdarn law, just like you do. Unless of course, you somehow feel taxation is beneath you.

I don't think anyone's advocating not paying taxes.  A flat tax is fair.  Is fairness beneath the Left?  What we have is wealth redistribution. Socialist voodoo.

If totally deregulated, you wouldn't have a minimum wage...

Minimum wage?    Why does the Left strut around like Mic Jagger, proudly touting the minimum wage!!  I'm sorry... but I get such a kick out of that!  

Anyway... you know what are they're paying the illegal aliens?  It's sure as hell ain't "minimum wage!" I'll tell you that much!

Basically, I would have accepted:  no man has the power to set a "minimum wage" OR  China.  There's your stickin' minimum wage!.  I also would have accepted, simply:  "Detroit."

Mitt Romney's 47% was such bullsh*t, but you can believe that if you want to. Benefits fraud is a nebulous myth spread by rightwing ideologues that has little basis in fact to demonise the working poor. Only know the UK figure, but 0.7% of benefits claimed last year were fraudulent. 0.7%. That's a little less than 47%, even by your tenuous grasp on reality.

So underpaying vulnerable immigrants is ok in your book because they can get away with it? Great. You're an entitled moron.

Or are you advocating better rights for illegal immigrants? Doesn't sound like you are? Because you are an entitled  moron.

[Bean Bag]

So underpaying vulnerable immigrants is ok in your book because they can get away with it? Great. You're an entitled moron.

Or are you advocating better rights for illegal immigrants? Doesn't sound like you are? Because you are an entitled  moron.

No, Hypehat... I'm simply advocating that you're a moron.  With all due respect. 

But seriously... minimum wage is a fantasy, is it not?  This isn't rocket science.  Either it is or it isn't.  I've got all day... I'm entitled, remember?   

[Jason]

No one is "entitled" to a job or a wage. You have to earn them.

[hypehat]

I take it you've never been unemployed? All Internet libertarians seem to come from positions of privilege that they take for granted to the extent that they cannot possibly fathom how other people get into such situations. Doesn't being able to afford food and a place to live come under 'life' in your oft trumped 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'? Or does everyone in poverty simply deserve it?

[Jason]

I have been unemployed. Don't presume to tell me how you think I'm some kind of privileged individual because I think a certain way that doesn't parallel your pinko sensibilities. You sound like one of those class warfare folks in the news...bourgeoisie keeping you proles down, eh? Solidarity and all that. No one's keeping you down in the free market. Maybe it's because you serve no purpose in the market institutions in which you attempt to fit.

I work for my keep and while I don't live an extravagant life by any means it doesn't make me a bad person because I see the hypocrisy in a statist like you. See, while I criticize your thought processes, I refrain from attacks on your character. Yet you rebound with this.

Seriously? f*** you.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

No one's keeping you down in the free market.

What free market are you referring to? Where does this exist where a free market isn't keeping anyone down?

[Jason]

No one's keeping you down in the free market.

What free market are you referring to? Where does this exist where a free market isn't keeping anyone down?

Free markets by their very nature are voluntary...no one has a gun held to his or her head and is forced to participate. Markets do not keep people down, governments and "welfare" keep people down.

[hypehat]

I have been unemployed. Don't presume to tell me how you think I'm some kind of privileged individual because I think a certain way that doesn't parallel your pinko sensibilities. You sound like one of those class warfare folks in the news...bourgeoisie keeping you proles down, eh? Solidarity and all that. No one's keeping you down in the free market. Maybe it's because you serve no purpose in the market institutions in which you attempt to fit.

I work for my keep and while I don't live an extravagant life by any means it doesn't make me a bad person because I see the hypocrisy in a statist like you. See, while I criticize your thought processes, I refrain from attacks on your character. Yet you rebound with this.

Seriously? f*** you.

Amazed you didn't work a John Bull reference into that.

Seriously, you bring this aggressive bullshit into these threads, even when i wasnt posting to them. You also expect people to let it slide, only because you think you're right and bludgeon people with 4chan grade assholism. You want a discussion, don't call me, or anyone else for that matter, a 'libtard' or a pinko and expect me to not respond in kind.

When you got your benefits cheque, did you weep a solitary tear at the prospect at finally being a pawn of that nasty, nasty government, or did you simply get on with your life, thinking 'sure is nice I'm not homeless'?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

No, Hyphat: he's earned his pittance and that's the only reality he knows or cares to know and anyone who's done anything else but bust their ass for $10 an hour is a fool and a statist... The anger of the prole is what it really is: just misdirected.

[Jason]

When you got your benefits cheque, did you weep a solitary tear at the prospect at finally being a pawn of that nasty, nasty government, or did you simply get on with your life, thinking 'sure is nice I'm not homeless'?

I never applied for benefits because I was too busy looking for gainful employment. I subsisted on savings until I found another job.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

No one's keeping you down in the free market.

What free market are you referring to? Where does this exist where a free market isn't keeping anyone down?

Free markets by their very nature are voluntary...no one has a gun held to his or her head and is forced to participate. Markets do not keep people down, governments and "welfare" keep people down.

Again, I ask, what free markets are you talking about?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

When you got your benefits cheque, did you weep a solitary tear at the prospect at finally being a pawn of that nasty, nasty government, or did you simply get on with your life, thinking 'sure is nice I'm not homeless'?

I never applied for benefits because I was too busy looking for gainful employment. I subsisted on savings until I found another job.

If true, this is commendable... I hardly know anyone who has any real savings. Not even people who make "real" money....

[Jason]

No one's keeping you down in the free market.

What free market are you referring to? Where does this exist where a free market isn't keeping anyone down?

Free markets by their very nature are voluntary...no one has a gun held to his or her head and is forced to participate. Markets do not keep people down, governments and "welfare" keep people down.

Again, I ask, what free markets are you talking about?

There aren't different types of free markets. It's either a free market or a coercive market, i.e. the state.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There aren't different types of free markets. It's either a free market or a coercive market, i.e. the state.

Well, that's not completely true but give me an example of what you're talking about.

[Jason]

When you got your benefits cheque, did you weep a solitary tear at the prospect at finally being a pawn of that nasty, nasty government, or did you simply get on with your life, thinking 'sure is nice I'm not homeless'?

I never applied for benefits because I was too busy looking for gainful employment. I subsisted on savings until I found another job.

If true, this is commendable... I hardly know anyone who has any real savings. Not even people who make "real" money....

It's called planning ahead. Sure, it wasn't necessarily easy going off of savings for a couple weeks and living on peanut butter sandwiches, but that's the price to be paid. No gainful employment means one needs to hold off some previous comforts for a bit. I refuse to run up huge credit card bills as well.

[Jason]

There aren't different types of free markets. It's either a free market or a coercive market, i.e. the state.

Well, that's not completely true but give me an example of what you're talking about.

The best example is Somalia. The lack of government oversight with regards to the market effectively led to people voluntarily organizing themselves to provide competitively priced services (food, telecommunications, airlines, hospitality) at lower prices. It's based off of Xeer customary law.

[SMiLE Brian]

There aren't different types of free markets. It's either a free market or a coercive market, i.e. the state.

Well, that's not completely true but give me an example of what you're talking about.

The best example is Somalia. The lack of government oversight with regards to the market effectively led to people voluntarily organizing themselves to provide competitively priced services (food, telecommunications, airlines, hospitality) at lower prices. It's based off of Xeer customary law.

I have heard about that and its commendable, but it doesn't change the fact that Somalia is lawless hellhole.

[Jason]

There aren't different types of free markets. It's either a free market or a coercive market, i.e. the state.

Well, that's not completely true but give me an example of what you're talking about.

The best example is Somalia. The lack of government oversight with regards to the market effectively led to people voluntarily organizing themselves to provide competitively priced services (food, telecommunications, airlines, hospitality) at lower prices. It's based off of Xeer customary law.

I have heard about that and its commendable, but it doesn't change the fact that Somalia is lawless hellhole.

Somalia is chaotic because the United Nations won't leave them alone. Those people by and large do not want another centralized government after the sh*t they went through before 1991 and the United Nations has tried their damnedest to institute a new central government in that country. Somalis DON'T WANT IT.

It's not the anarchism I'd necessarily push for but it's a hell of a lot better than a central government.

This article below discusses the customary "Xeer" organization that Somalis use as a guideline.

http://mises.org/daily/2701

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There aren't different types of free markets. It's either a free market or a coercive market, i.e. the state.

Well, that's not completely true but give me an example of what you're talking about.

The best example is Somalia. The lack of government oversight with regards to the market effectively led to people voluntarily organizing themselves to provide competitively priced services (food, telecommunications, airlines, hospitality) at lower prices. It's based off of Xeer customary law.

Actually the telecommunications industry which is the more successful element of the Somali economy was by and large successful because of remittances from abroad.

And for the most part, the economy is controlled by warlords.

I wouldn't call this a free market by any means nor would I say that people are "voluntarily organizing themselves." It is a largely controlled society - but it is, for the most part, controlled by gangs rather than an official government. I would agree that the outside world does have a lot to answer for for the state Somalia is in, though I certainly wouldn't blame the UN.

[hypehat]

When you got your benefits cheque, did you weep a solitary tear at the prospect at finally being a pawn of that nasty, nasty government, or did you simply get on with your life, thinking 'sure is nice I'm not homeless'?

I never applied for benefits because I was too busy looking for gainful employment. I subsisted on savings until I found another job.

If true, this is commendable... I hardly know anyone who has any real savings. Not even people who make "real" money....

It's called planning ahead. Sure, it wasn't necessarily easy going off of savings for a couple weeks and living on peanut butter sandwiches, but that's the price to be paid. No gainful employment means one needs to hold off some previous comforts for a bit. I refuse to run up huge credit card bills as well.

Your luck in the situation (like Pinder, no-one I know has savings that wouldn't get completely wiped out by a months rent/food in London) still doesn't justify the attitude you have to people who don't have that luck. If you were strictly calling it a game of luck, I'd buy that. But you say people 'deserve' poverty, even if they work.

In Britain, lots of recipients of housing benefits, child benefits council housing, etc, are in employment. Granted, that employment  is temporary unskilled work defined by vast corporate entities like Tesco because neo-liberal policy decimated the industrial sector and the working class. That was 30 years ago. And now there's nothing but shitty work of that nature for great swathes of the population due to this notion of rugged individualism. Of course, it's definitely not the free-market ideology, or the companies fault that there's only sh*t work for no pay, is it? No, much easier to blame the working class for being 'shirkers'.

Like I say,you'd love Britain. They've spent the new year decimating the benefits system based on sneering posh stereotypes of benefits fraud on council estates - ie, something the public school elite in Britain have only seen on Little  Britain. The real number of fraudulent benefits? 0.7%. And then they leave those nice corporations who owe the UK roughly the deficit in their lawful taxes alone. Never mind that those nice businessmen and bankers are flagrantly breaking the law in many, many ways (and getting richer in what's going to be a triple-dip recession), there's some more poor people they can kick out of their homes. Clearly they aren't working hard enough, right?

You said you read The Guardian, right? Like, are you sure? Or by 'read' do you mean 'my chips are wrapped up in The Guardian'?

Also, in your tirade....

You sound like one of those class warfare folks in the news...bourgeoisie keeping you proles down, eh? Solidarity and all that. No one's keeping you down in the free market. Maybe it's because you serve no purpose in the market institutions in which you attempt to fit.

Are you trying to infer that I am unemployed, which of course would be the only reason one would rep for the Welfare state? I'm a middle class, well employed, university graduate, you jackass. At least I had the good grace to try and explore where you got your sneering hatred for people without your privilege.

[Jason]

Where have I said that people "deserve" poverty? I don't have a negative attitude or hatred towards those people but I certainly have problems when they try to say that they're somehow "owed something". No one is "owed" ANYTHING. But I don't blame the private sector for the shitty job market. I blame the government. And I wasn't even trying to infer that you are unemployed.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Who exactly thinks they are owed something? This is what I don't get, and it largely just seems like a fever dream cooked up as misplaced anger at the feeling of working working and working with little reward but a great deal of pride: which is a positive actually, but why direct it at this imaginary mass of people who somehow believe they are owed something of YOURS? I tell you, this doesn't exist.... I've known some people who have been on unemployment, and the level of shame involved was staggering. And these people all lost a lot of sleep while relentlessly looking for work, and most people I knew in such situations actually found work before a single unemployment dollar made it's way through all the red tape.... Imagine that, being filled with shame over receiving money from a system that YOU paid into during all your previous years of working/contributing.... It is pure, unadulterated indoctrination to assume that hordes of evil people think they are owed something.... And what is so wrong with such a concept anyway? You are born unwittingly into this world, you have to work and basically pay just for the privilege of being alive, and at every turn you have to pay more and more and more for basically less and less, YOUR labor and blood and sweat is OWED to society..... If your scumbag President decides to send you into war to line his pockets, YOU OWE YOUR LIFE....... Oh, but don't ask for a damn thing. Shut up and work your ass off while your idiot President who never had to work a day in his life reaps the rewards of you all that YOU OWE..... Don't give me this PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY'RE OWED SOMETHING line of bullsh*t.... I feel you. Trust me. I know the emotion..... But please examine it before it eats you alive.

[hypehat]

If people pay their taxes into the welfare state, as everyone does (including you, TRBB, I assume) they should have the assurance of those benefits if and when they fall upon hard times. I have claimed my benefits when need be, because I have paid for them. That's how it works for 99.3% of British people.

Yeah, so call me Comrade Hypehat.

What I'm trying to get you to think about is, why should these corporations, and merchant bankers, not abide by the law and pay their taxes when we do? What makes them above the law? What makes them different to you? You haven't tried to address the tax gap in the UK, which I've mentioned so many times in this thread, because of your dogged insistence that the forces of the banking free market want to do right. They don't. They just want to make money off of libor rates or whatever and f*** off to their beach houses with their ill gotten gains. The free market, in a post thatcherite age, would let this rampant abuse continue. It has, and it will continue to unless people start giving a sh*t about who is playing the system. It sure as f*** ain't the government, the businesses don't like to pay their tax. Because they are divorced from real life and they don't give a flying f*** about anything outside their bubble of privileged snobbery. They despise the working class.

You said people have to earn a wage. Bullshit. If you have a job, it should be able to keep you off the streets. Any notion that people don't work hard enough for a living is noxious and foul, everyone works hard to live. As do you, and as do I.