Socialism In France -- People Flee. What?

[Bean Bag]

Gérard Depardieu [a famous french actor] says he will give up French passport over tax rises
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/16/gerard-depardieu-french-passport-tax

Prime minister, Jean-Marc Ayrault:  Depardieu's behaviour is pathetic and unpatriotic at a time when the French are being asked to pay higher taxes to reduce a bloated national debt.

Boy that sounds familiar!  

Depardieu:  "Who are you to judge me, I ask you Mr Ayrault? Despite my excesses, my appetite and my love of life, I remain a free man"

Woah, woah woah.  Freedom?  Easy buddy.  Eaaasy.  
You know...they really need a wall.  Yeah.  An Iron Curtain?  Since it's France...perhaps it should be a Wrought Iron Curtain.

An angry member of parliament:  France should adopt a US-inspired law that would force Depardieu or anyone trying to escape full tax dues to forgo their nationality.

Well, this is getting exciting!  But still...rather wimpy.  Can't you just lock them up?  C'mon...what would Mao do!



Depardieu:  "I am leaving because you believe that success, creation, talent, anything different must be sanctioned."

In all fairness, Mr. Depardieu...they f'ed up big time.  You know the story:  politicians spent too much of the public's money... promised too many goodies from the public trust... OK, yes to buy votes and maintain popularity and thus power.  But, c'mon.  Everybody's doing it.  This is no time to run out!

Depardieu:  "People more illustrious than me have gone into [tax] exile. Of all those that have left none have been insulted as I have."

Well, isn't it obvious?  You're a famous actor, dude!  You're not like some evil rich guy, banker or nothing.  People actually like you.  For someone of your persuasion to demonstrate freedom and turn their back on Politicians and Government and ...gasp Socialism... that's just not good for their image.  And it's hard to get elected again when your image is bad.  Did you ever think of that?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

In the General Discussions forum there is a thread that notes that "If new threads with little to no substance, rehashed topics, or simple questions are being posted, we're going to reserve the right to merge those threads with related threads on the same topic." Can the moderators please ensure that the same rule applies here? The off-topics forum is being cluttered up by posts whenever one poster encounters a political news story when there are already several active politics threads going.

[Bean Bag]

Excuse me Moderator, but I object to the Prosecutor's limpid attempt to extinguish a new discussion on actual events.  This thread has oodles of substance, for it addresses not a theory, but an actual event taking place as the result of a political movement being "re"birthed on our planet.  Before our very eyes!!

What could have more substance than reality unfolding within a political context?  These aren't trite things.  They are the means by which men wish to rule over other men, and are proof to the delusional destruction they reap on all human society!

This political movement is on trial...not I.  And the events that have transpired as the result of it, are at the very heart of what my people wish to bring forth, as evidence, of the faults and folly of this tired old political trick.

Furthermore, I move that this attempt at me be stricken from the record, based on the Prosecutor's previous wishes directed towards me...

But I will say this, and you should follow it closely because these are the last words I will say to you: You are a piece of s#!t and just because you are so incapable of actually coming up with a response to what I have actually said and therefore rely on using the work that I do as some sort of dim-witted attempt to de-legitimize me .... My hope is that you will say absolutely nothing more to me because that's the only response you will get from me from now on.

[hypehat]

Deliberately avoiding taxation is not an 'expression of liberty', it's a crime, you f***ing doofus.

[guitarfool2002]

Deliberately avoiding taxation is not an 'expression of liberty', it's a crime, you f***ing doofus.

Make sure to remind Warren Buffett and Berkshire Hathaway of that fact.    Berkshire Hathaway/Buffett recently found and exploited a tax loophole which allowed them to avoid paying their "fair share" by doing some convoluted buyback of a late investor's shares which totaled over 1 billion dollars, and managed to dodge a boatload of taxes as a result.

Buffett is also under fire for finding a way to pass on his fortune to his family by going through a charity like the Gates foundation: If it goes through such a charity and is set up properly, that fortune can be given tax-free to his heirs as pseudo-employees of whatever charity it is given to, and those heirs will be able to collect a salary and live off the charity, in a way, so Buffett doesn't need to pay his taxes on that money and the family doesn't need to pay any "inheritance tax" on the fortune. If he had simply willed that money to those heirs, the taxes would be astronomical, as they are for people not named Buffett who have dealt with estates and inheritances.

Again, please fact-check the numbers, but I believe the number in question with Buffett passing it on to the charity fund is something like 44 billion dollars, the estimated value of his stock holdings which will be given to the Gates' foundation over time.

Point is, if he's so concerned about others paying their taxes, why does he continue to set up and exploit various means to avoid the same taxes where his money and holdings and his heirs are concerned?

[SloopJohnB]

The guy has paid €145 M in taxes over 40 years. Last year his revenue (his businesses included, because yes, he actually invests money, provides jobs and contributes to the economy) was taxed at 85%.

I'm French and I fully support him. I'd do the same thing if I were him, actually I'm heading towards a career considered "lucrative" by most and I don't intend to remain in France forever, because I want to be able to give something to my children. There comes a point where governmental stupidity needs to stop. Two weeks ago, new taxes were implemented each day. Literally.

Also, the UE is supposed to provide an area in which people and goods can move freely. If taxes are lower in Belgium, then nothing is stopping him, and it's not illegal.

[Bean Bag]

Deliberately avoiding taxation is not an 'expression of liberty', it's a crime, you f***ing doofus.

Ya see, there's plenty to discuss in this topic.  

Now, allow me to retort.  How is it avoiding taxes if he -- how should I put this so you understand -- if he, gets the f**k out of there, yo?  And he don't want to be no Frenchy no mo', you mutha f**king *****ss!!

Hey this is fun...my tongue is tingling with dirty word sensations!!  

[SloopJohnB]

Depardieu:  "People more illustrious than me have gone into [tax] exile. Of all those that have left none have been insulted as I have."

Well, isn't it obvious?  You're a famous actor, dude!  You're not like some evil rich guy, banker or nothing.  People actually like you.  For someone of your persuasion to demonstrate freedom and turn their back on Politicians and Government and ...gasp Socialism... that's just not good for their image.  And it's hard to get elected again when your image is bad.  Did you ever think of that?

Actually, Yannick Noah, former tennisman and currently a singer, has been France's #1 favorite celebrity for many consecutive years, and he lives in the US. No one's bashed him the way the media and some ministers shat on Depardieu. Probably because Noah supports the current government, and Depardieu is known for his mostly right-wing views. Hell, Noah even sang at the party thrown for the current president's election. A guy who evaded taxes shook the president's hand, and the latter called him "a friend". So, yeah.

[Bean Bag]

Depardieu:  "People more illustrious than me have gone into [tax] exile. Of all those that have left none have been insulted as I have."

Well, isn't it obvious?  You're a famous actor, dude!  You're not like some evil rich guy, banker or nothing.  People actually like you.  For someone of your persuasion to demonstrate freedom and turn their back on Politicians and Government and ...gasp Socialism... that's just not good for their image.  And it's hard to get elected again when your image is bad.  Did you ever think of that?

Actually, Yannick Noah, former tennisman and currently a singer, has been France's #1 favorite celebrity for many consecutive years, and he lives in the US. No one's bashed him the way the media and some ministers shat on Depardieu. Probably because Noah supports the current government, and Depardieu is known for his mostly right-wing views. Hell, Noah even sang at the party thrown for the current president's election. A guy who evaded taxes shook the president's hand, and the latter called him "a friend". So, yeah.

Interesting.  So he lives in the US but supports the Socialists in France.  As with the aforementioned "Buffett Rule"    I think we're seeing the all to familiar pattern of Leftist Hypocrisy rearing it's stanky head again.

Depardieu's crime is of course "not playing along" with the scam.  Us conservatives just don't know what's good for us.

[hypehat]

Deliberately avoiding taxation is not an 'expression of liberty', it's a crime, you f***ing doofus.

Ya see, there's plenty to discuss in this topic.  

Now, allow me to retort.  How is it avoiding taxes if he -- how should I put this so you understand -- if he, gets the f**k out of there, yo?  And he don't want to be no Frenchy no mo', you mutha f**king *****ss!!

Hey this is fun...my tongue is tingling with dirty word sensations!!  

If he leaves, fine. Pay your taxes wherever. But if a washed up has-been (last seen pissing in the aisle of a plane IIRC) whinges about paying taxes on his multimillion dollar fortune whilst everyone else pays what they owe on increasingly stretched wages, then he has absolutely no sympathy with me. If he can afford to f*** off, he should f*** off. If he stays in France and avoids his taxes, he is a rich twat.


For all of you who think pestering businessmen, corporations, and the well-off people to pay their taxes wouldn't help the economy 'because we're all f***ed', the 'tax gap' in the UK - the amount of unpaid tax from corporations and banks thanks to loopholes of dubious legality - would pay off the deficit in the UK easily. Not that the f***ing Tories care. Let's cut benefits AGAIN instead.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/30/roll-call-corporate-rogues-tax


Sorry for the blue language, trying to give up smoking again  

[Bean Bag]

No worries!  Best of luck on quitting smoking!!

[Jason]

Sorry, but history proves that the wealthy will always leave a country with a high income tax rate. sh*t, just consider the musicians alone! Tom Jones, Cat Stevens, the Rolling Stones, Graeme Edge from the Moody Blues, Ringo Starr...they all packed up and left.

Good riddance to Monsieur Depardieu, indeed. He refuses to live in a country that punishes success and MORE POWER TO HIM FOR IT.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Sorry, but history proves that the wealthy will always leave a country with a high income tax rate.

Actually, most serious studies show that in most cases tax flight is largely a myth though I'm sure there will be some predictable cases in France - probably for the overall improvement of the country and far better than the austerity measures that have failed dramatically. Of course, one can always hand pick a few examples, but for the most part this claim about tax flight is untrue.

Again, can someone please justify why this needs its own thread and can't be placed in any of the several active politics threads right now, some of which touch exactly on these subjects? I am not attempting "to extinguish a new discussion on actual events" but rather suggesting we avoid clutter and avoid turning the off topics forum into simply a Politics forum and merge the thread with a related one.

[hypehat]

Good riddance to Monsieur Depardieu, indeed. He refuses to live in a country that punishes success

 

Why should you pay your taxes and Gerard Depardieu can throw a hissy fit, spend his millions on fleeing the country (to no doubt a life of plebian decreptitude, oh, anywhere on the planet because he's a fucking millionaire), and be applauded for it? What possible sympathy can you have for a man with more money than he could possibly spend going to taxes when I presume you're not in the same boat and pay yours?

God, it's hard being rich - I wish I had enough money and job security to flee the country with absolutely no ramifications for petty reasons!

[Bean Bag]

I don't think you need to be rich to find better circumstances - just brains.  And courage.  It's been seen throughout history. Immigrants fleeing coming to America - have you heard of America?  We used to specialize in this, not so much lately.

But it doesn't always have to be so dramatic either. Many people move to Florida to find a more favorable tax situation. Many relocate to areas simply because the job market is better, home prices are better. We're born free to do this. Recognizing this, hack politicians try to keep people from exiting. French Socialists and other leftists demonize those who do. Stalin and Mao probably just hunted you down and took you out.

[hypehat]

I don't think you need to be rich to find better circumstances - just brains.  And courage.  It's been seen throughout history. Immigrants fleeing coming to America - have you heard of America?  We used to specialize in this, not so much lately.

But it doesn't always have to be so dramatic either. Many people move to Florida to find a more favorable tax situation. Many relocate to areas simply because the job market is better, home prices are better. We're born free to do this. Recognizing this, hack politicians try to keep people from exiting. French Socialists and other leftists demonize those who do. Stalin and Mao probably just hunted you down and took you out.

He's free to do it, of course, but I fail to see why I should sympathise with the plight of a poor rich man who can easily do whatever the hell he likes and thinks taxation is somehow beneath him. Don't they know who he thinks he is? He's not some kind of hero sticking it to the man. He just doesn't want to pay his legally determined taxes unlike everyone else (nb 'everyone else' excludes the similarly well-off, corporations, banks, newspaper moguls, the British Royal Family, etc etc etc).

Why are they so special?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Tax migration in the US from state to state, in particular, is a myth according to just about every study on the matter.

Here's a report on California:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/scspi/_media/working_papers/Varner-Young_Millionaire_Migration_in_CA.pdf

Here is one on New England:

http://www.peri.umass.edu/fileadmin/pdf/published_study/Migration_PERI_April13.pdf

There are plenty of other reports like it but they all typically show the same thing - that the notion of tax migration in the US is generally a fabrication.

[guitarfool2002]

No one is touching the Warren Buffett issue, I'm not surprised. I actually give Depardieu credit on this one, because he actually followed through on what he said he'd do. You may disagree with his ideology or reasoning, but if we break it down, he had issues and disagreed strongly with a government policy, he voiced a public opinion against it, he got ripped apart as a result, and he basically said "fine, I'm leaving and taking my taxable income with me."

To me, that's more admirable than Warren Buffett becoming the public face of the "responsible millionaire", going around lecturing others about their duty to pay taxes and pay higher taxes, the moral responsibility of those with wealth to give up more of that wealth, the way the tax structure is unfair and unjust to favor millionaires finding loopholes and paying less in taxes than what he thinks would be their "fair share"...

Then you dig deeper and find that Buffett himself and his famous investment company Berkshire Hathaway have exploited and continue to exploit those very same loopholes in the tax code in order to find those legal "grey areas" where he and B-H can avoid paying their "fair share" yet still manage to squeak by and have the activities seem semi-legal to the general public.

That in itself isn't illegal as far as I know, as slimy and semi-legal as it may appear. But for Warren Buffett himself to continuously make public comments about others paying a "fair share" in taxes, to advocate more and higher taxes on the wealthy, to continue hectoring other millionaires about donating to charity and paying more in their own taxes, all the while ensuring HIS family and heirs won't pay as much, employing entire corporate teams of lawyers to help HIS corporate interests dodge the full tax rates they should be paying, and in general doing one thing while publicly saying another...

It's not only the height of arrogance but also a deep-rooted hypocrisy which I feel is being brushed aside by many who are saying the same things as Buffett regarding taxes. If Depardieu were going around saying people should pay higher taxes, and agreeing with the higher tax rates being implemented, but THEN moving out of France to dodge the tax rate, he'd be a hypocrite and would rightfully be subject to scorn, derision, etc.

As it stands Buffett is doing all kinds of things to dodge paying the same higher tax rates he's been advocating in public (he's all but the poster child for the 'Responsible Millionaire' club), yet he escapes for the most part anything near the criticism or even the simple scrutiny which fell on Depardieu.

If fairness and equity were the goal in all of this, at least someone should put a microphone in Buffett's face and ask him a direct question on why he doesn't seem to be practicing what he preaches.

Or why no one who immediately accuses Depardieu of being a tax dodger wouldn't point the same finger at Buffett.

[hypehat]

No-one's touching the Warren Buffett issue because it's fairly obvious the dude is a big hypocrite, and I lump him in with any tax avoiding git. Who does he think he is?


But that shouldn't render the entire issue of calling out tax avoidance moot. In one of my posts upthread, an article from the Graun states quite clearly that the gap between what corporations, banks, and the Depardieu's of the world pay in tax and what they actually owe to the Treasury (UK Edition) if not for shady tax havens of dubious legality would pay off the entire deficit of the United Kingdom.

THE ENTIRE DEFICIT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM, FOLKS.

But no, these are the 'wealth creators'. We have a chancellor who pays lip service to this idea of paying your taxes in the face of public pressure and protest, then slashes council budgets, public sector pay, reduces the rights of workers, the Welfare State, and the NHS because we need to reduce the deficit and help business by making sure they can f*** over their workers. The deficit has not been reduced, and he's been forced to doctor the figures in his policy. This is probably A-OK with you lot, mind. You are happy to let corporations f*** you lot over with zero accountability and protection from a Government of toffs - it's a veritable paradise for you! Or just like home. Free-Market Economics in action.

Force Starbucks, Amazon, Google, The Ritz, Prince Charles, etc to pay their taxes and the economy would be in much better shape. It's absolutely shameful.

[guitarfool2002]

It is also revelatory to take a closer look at how much in taxes General Electric has paid. Jeffrey Immelt is currently an adviser in the Obama administration, and was CEO of GE. Don't even look too far, just go to the Huffington Post and find various entries suggesting GE found a way to escape paying federal taxes in recent years. If accurate, then, I would have paid more in my own federal taxes than GE.

I'm glad to see groups pointing at GE, and the inequity of all this. Yet I also don't see anywhere near the scrutiny nor the mainstream attention calling out the complete nonsense being perpetrated by Immelt and GE while someone like Depardeiu gets raked over the coals as a tax dodger.

Like the example of the other entertainer from France living in the US, there is still far too much political ideology playing into who gets the spotlight shone on their activities and who gets a pass. That bothers me.

Hypocrisy needs to be called out. I think guys like Immelt and Buffett do not get called out enough for their hypocrisy, or by the right sources, because of who they are and who they are allied with politically. My two cents.

[Jason]

Socialism...an idea so good that John Bull forces you to do it.

[Bean Bag]

No-one's touching the Warren Buffett issue because it's fairly obvious the dude is a big hypocrite, and I lump him in with any tax avoiding git. Who does he think he is?

I can tell you who Buffet is.  I can also tell you why no one is actually touching the issue -- because they don't understand it.  He is not just any ole' tax avoiding git.  He and Immelt are not just a big fat hypocrites.  Guitarfool2002 said it -- it's who they're allied with.  Politically, you see.  What we're witnessing is actually the syrupy photo op of tyranny.

Businesses and individuals can either fight tyranny or... well, try a different approach.

Conservatives have labeled it "soft tyranny."  You "play ball and deal with it" -- OR, you get a bus load of ObamaPhone ladies showing up on your CEO's gated front lawn, terrorizing the children inside.  Or you take the aforementioned "different approach."  You function as a mouthpiece... the good boy... the teacher's pet.  You're spared and held up as an example.  You get breaks.  The goons (both in sweat pants and the ones in suits) look the other way.  But for how long?  Well, let's not speculate, too much...

[Jason]

Unlocked this thread...I don't know why it was or who locked it.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Hypocrisy needs to be called out. I think guys like Immelt and Buffett do not get called out enough for their hypocrisy, or by the right sources, because of who they are and who they are allied with politically. My two cents.

Of course - the Administration of the President and the mainstream media are controlled by virtually the same ideological group - namely, the right wing corporate elite. It's no surprise that they would protect each other.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Socialism...an idea so good that John Bull forces you to do it.

Not sure how that figures. In reality though capitalism was an idea that was so good that it could only be effectively put into practice when landowners destroyed the peasant population, who stridently and rebelliously resisted the movement, by seizing their commonly held land and means of sustenance and turning it into private enterprise, driving the population into the hands of urban manufacturers.