Four more years!

[Bean Bag]

Give me an example of this society and demonstrate how "society" has improved.

There's a whole world outside of the faculty lounge, rockandroll!!    Here... this a wonderful example of the Left's idea of a "FREE" market...
 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

There is no shortage of idiots on either side:


http://liberal-agenda.com/2012/11/watch-a-terrifying-glimpse-into-the-mind-of-a-romney-supporter/

[rab2591]

Men who are pro-life hate women. It's probably that simple. Tied up with a lot of religious hokum. It's their right to choose, for either way, and men should gtfo of it unless they are the potential father. But that's it.

Hypehat, I'm beginning to think that rational thought is beyond you.  You clearly think with your heart, but you should try thinking with your head, because you can say some truly ridiculous things sometimes (such as Eric Clapton being some horrible racist. Remember that humdinger?).  Try this one on for size: I consider myself pro-life, with a few obvious exceptions.  I am not religious.  I simply believe that if a couple is sexually active, then they are taking the responsibility with it.  I don't view it as any rights being denied here (except maybe the right to life).  There are plenty of things a couple can do to responsibly avoid procreation.  Please, explain to me how that makes me hate women?  Go on...I'm waiting...

Same here. Hypehat, I'm FAR from religious, I'm pro life because I don't know where/when consciousness is born (if at all) in the fetus. It has nothing to do with religion, it's not because I hate women (which I don't), but it's purely because I love life and think that any consciousness born into this universe deserves a chance. And I'm not intelligent enough to know when "life" appears in a child/baby (or if consciousness exists at all).

I really don't understand where your pro-Obama sentiment comes from, either. All of these jerks work for somebody with a bigger agenda. They don't work for the American people.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Men who are pro-life hate women. It's probably that simple. Tied up with a lot of religious hokum. It's their right to choose, for either way, and men should gtfo of it unless they are the potential father. But that's it.

Hypehat, I'm beginning to think that rational thought is beyond you.  You clearly think with your heart, but you should try thinking with your head, because you can say some truly ridiculous things sometimes (such as Eric Clapton being some horrible racist. Remember that humdinger?).  Try this one on for size: I consider myself pro-life, with a few obvious exceptions.  I am not religious.  I simply believe that if a couple is sexually active, then they are taking the responsibility with it.  I don't view it as any rights being denied here (except maybe the right to life).  There are plenty of things a couple can do to responsibly avoid procreation.  Please, explain to me how that makes me hate women?  Go on...I'm waiting...

Same here. Hypehat, I'm FAR from religious, I'm pro life because I don't know where/when consciousness is born (if at all) in the fetus. It has nothing to do with religion, it's not because I hate women (which I don't), but it's purely because I love life and think that any consciousness born into this universe deserves a chance. And I'm not intelligent enough to know when "life" appears in a child/baby (or if consciousness exists at all).

I really don't understand where your pro-Obama sentiment comes from, either. All of these jerks work for somebody with a bigger agenda. They don't work for the American people.

I don't think Hyphat is talking about guys like you. Unfortunately, the types who scream the loudest on the anti-abortion front are angry old men who just love to send kids off to die in wars and love to cut funding for schools etc etc, so it just adds up as hypocritical hogwash. Also, anyone who wants to block the possibility of abortion even in the case of rape or when the life of the mother is in danger, has some serious issues....

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There's a whole world outside of the faculty lounge, rockandroll!!    

Sure. So for example, there is the hospital lounge where I spent nearly every day of my life for three months (while undertaking a PhD degree) because my daughter was born three and a half months premature, weighing a pound and a half. Of course, after you are born, you inevitably lose weight so she ended up dropping down to a pound but by that time she started suffering from a level 3 brain bleed so we had to focus on other things. That was in October of 2010. Our New Year's Eve that year was watching our daughter slip into the early stages of meningitis about a month before she was supposed to come home. But eventually she pulled through and she just recently celebrated her 2nd birthday and appears to be in perfect health for a child her age (with our without prematurity). Hospital lounges are something that I had been familiar with already since my mother died of ovarian cancer at the age of 32 when I was three and half years old. She had been diagnosed with it 6 months after I was born.

I don't tell you this because I feel particularly special in this regard. Quite the oppose - I know that there are plenty of stories like this, and, in fact, I have only given you a very abridged version of my own experiences.

But I will say this, and you should follow it closely because these are the last words I will say to you: You are a piece of s#!t and just because you are so incapable of actually coming up with a response to what I have actually said and therefore rely on using the work that I do as some sort of dim-witted attempt to de-legitimize me, this ultimately gives you exactly zero grounds to even begin to comment on my experience with so-called "reality." You know exactly NOTHING about me, my experiences, or my life. And that you have even begun to presume that you do know something given the experiences that I have had is exactly what makes you scum. I have absolutely nothing more to say to you because you disgust me. And when you try to belittle my experiences with reality as you have done here and so have others, you unknowingly belittle the experiences that I described above and that is offensive both to me and my daughter who I watched struggle to stay alive for months. Now I most likely experienced reality in those three months more so than you probably will in your entire lifetime but I have never once used that as a way to try to de-legitimize your own points. I could have. But I am better than that. My hope is that you will say absolutely nothing more to me because that's the only response you will get from me from now on.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I consider myself pro-life, with a few obvious exceptions.  I am not religious.  I simply believe that if a couple is sexually active, then they are taking the responsibility with it. 

But this is inconsistent with reality. As is well established by now, as women have more opportunities, more education, have access to better medical care, education, and family planning information, fertility rates go down and abortion goes down, and childen are better cared for and women are healthier. There are ways of saving hundreds of thousands of lives and actively reducing abortion levels that are well under social control that don't violate women's right to choose. But getting to that point demands an acknowledgement of reality - that being sexually responsible is a luxury that a particular class of society can have and that that luxury doesn't apply to everyone. So if you're serious about both being pro-life and being responsible, then to me the sensible option is not to oppose a woman's right to choose.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I consider myself pro-life, with a few obvious exceptions.  I am not religious.  I simply believe that if a couple is sexually active, then they are taking the responsibility with it. 

But this is inconsistent with reality. As is well established by now, as women have more opportunities, more education, have access to better medical care, education, and family planning information, fertility rates go down and abortion goes down, and childen are better cared for and women are healthier. There are ways of saving hundreds of thousands of lives and actively reducing abortion levels that are well under social control that don't violate women's right to choose. But getting to that point demands an acknowledgement of reality - that being sexually responsible is a luxury that a particular class of society can have and that that luxury doesn't apply to everyone. So if you're serious about both being pro-life and being responsible, then to me the sensible option is not to oppose a woman's right to choose.

If couples were both sexually active AND responsible there would be about 12 people walking the earth......

[SMiLE Brian]

There's a whole world outside of the faculty lounge, rockandroll!!    

Sure. So for example, there is the hospital lounge where I spent nearly every day of my life for three months (while undertaking a PhD degree) because my daughter was born three and a half months premature, weighing a pound and a half. Of course, after you are born, you inevitably lose weight so she ended up dropping down to a pound but by that time she started suffering from a level 3 brain bleed so we had to focus on other things. That was in October of 2010. Our New Year's Eve that year was watching our daughter slip into the early stages of meningitis about a month before she was supposed to come home. But eventually she pulled through and she just recently celebrated her 2nd birthday and appears to be in perfect health for a child her age (with our without prematurity). Hospital lounges are something that I had been familiar with already since my mother died of ovarian cancer at the age of 32 when I was three and half years old. She had been diagnosed with it 6 months after I was born.

I don't tell you this because I feel particularly special in this regard. Quite the oppose - I know that there are plenty of stories like this, and, in fact, I have only given you a very abridged version of my own experiences.

But I will say this, and you should follow it closely because these are the last words I will say to you: You are a piece of s#!t and just because you are so incapable of actually coming up with a response to what I have actually said and therefore rely on using the work that I do as some sort of dim-witted attempt to de-legitimize me, this ultimately gives you exactly zero grounds to even begin to comment on my experience with so-called "reality." You know exactly NOTHING about me, my experiences, or my life. And that you have even begun to presume that you do know something given the experiences that I have had is exactly what makes you scum. I have absolutely nothing more to say to you because you disgust me. And when you try to belittle my experiences with reality as you have done here and so have others, you unknowingly belittle the experiences that I described above and that is offensive both to me and my daughter who I watched struggle to stay alive for months. Now I most likely experienced reality in those three months more so than you probably will in your entire lifetime but I have never once used that as a way to try to de-legitimize your own points. I could have. But I am better than that. My hope is that you will say absolutely nothing more to me because that's the only response you will get from me from now on.

Very brave of you to share such a difficult personal situation rockandroll. There is a movement in america to make academics look like they are emotionless robots who mislead college students, when the truth is they are normal people with personal lives and families who do a service to nation being educators.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Thank you.

Yes, it's a common tactic. It's a common tactic to use against anyone who happens to express different ideas in a thoroughly indoctrinated society - one so outside of anything resembling reality that one could suggest with a serious face that Obama and his supporters represent "the left" and very few object to this blatantly false characterization. So in the USSR, any Russian dissident who critiqued the Soviet Union were oftened imprisoned. In the US, there exists a freer society so it is necessary to find other means of silencing unfavourable opinions and one of those ways is to actively attempt to shame the people who hold them and if that doesn't work, shame the very methods one has used to come to their conclusions. These are the kinds of things that you quite simply don't see in advanced, secure, free societies.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Thank you.

Yes, it's a common tactic. It's a common tactic to use against anyone who happens to express different ideas in a thoroughly indoctrinated society - one so outside of anything resembling reality that one could suggest with a serious face that Obama and his supporters represent "the left" and very few object to this blatantly false characterization. So in the USSR, any Russian dissident who critiqued the Soviet Union were oftened imprisoned. In the US, there exists a freer society so it is necessary to find other means of silencing unfavourable opinions and one of those ways is to actively attempt to shame the people who hold them and if that doesn't work, shame the very methods one has used to come to their conclusions. These are the kinds of things that you quite simply don't see in advanced, secure, free societies.

+1

[Awesoman]

I don't think Hyphat is talking about guys like you.

Just to quote Hype: "Men who are pro-life hate women."  So yes, he is talking about guys like us.  Fortunately for him, I'll overlook his blatant ignorance. 
 

Unfortunately, the types who scream the loudest on the anti-abortion front are angry old men who just love to send kids off to die in wars and love to cut funding for schools etc etc, so it just adds up as hypocritical hogwash. Also, anyone who wants to block the possibility of abortion even in the case of rape or when the life of the mother is in danger, has some serious issues....

Let's not make over-generalizations here.  No one loves to "send kids off to die in wars" nor is anyone intentfully trying to hurt education.  Yes, there are those whom take the pro-life thing a little too far and won't make any exceptions.  But there are plenty of views on pro-life and many of them don't reach this conclusion.   

[Dunderhead]

There's a whole world outside of the faculty lounge, rockandroll!!    

Sure. So for example, there is the hospital lounge where I spent nearly every day of my life for three months (while undertaking a PhD degree) because my daughter was born three and a half months premature, weighing a pound and a half. Of course, after you are born, you inevitably lose weight so she ended up dropping down to a pound but by that time she started suffering from a level 3 brain bleed so we had to focus on other things. That was in October of 2010. Our New Year's Eve that year was watching our daughter slip into the early stages of meningitis about a month before she was supposed to come home. But eventually she pulled through and she just recently celebrated her 2nd birthday and appears to be in perfect health for a child her age (with our without prematurity). Hospital lounges are something that I had been familiar with already since my mother died of ovarian cancer at the age of 32 when I was three and half years old. She had been diagnosed with it 6 months after I was born.

I don't tell you this because I feel particularly special in this regard. Quite the oppose - I know that there are plenty of stories like this, and, in fact, I have only given you a very abridged version of my own experiences.

But I will say this, and you should follow it closely because these are the last words I will say to you: You are a piece of s#!t and just because you are so incapable of actually coming up with a response to what I have actually said and therefore rely on using the work that I do as some sort of dim-witted attempt to de-legitimize me, this ultimately gives you exactly zero grounds to even begin to comment on my experience with so-called "reality." You know exactly NOTHING about me, my experiences, or my life. And that you have even begun to presume that you do know something given the experiences that I have had is exactly what makes you scum. I have absolutely nothing more to say to you because you disgust me. And when you try to belittle my experiences with reality as you have done here and so have others, you unknowingly belittle the experiences that I described above and that is offensive both to me and my daughter who I watched struggle to stay alive for months. Now I most likely experienced reality in those three months more so than you probably will in your entire lifetime but I have never once used that as a way to try to de-legitimize your own points. I could have. But I am better than that. My hope is that you will say absolutely nothing more to me because that's the only response you will get from me from now on.

Calm down.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I don't think Hyphat is talking about guys like you.

Just to quote Hype: "Men who are pro-life hate women."  So yes, he is talking about guys like us.  Fortunately for him, I'll overlook his blatant ignorance. 
 

Unfortunately, the types who scream the loudest on the anti-abortion front are angry old men who just love to send kids off to die in wars and love to cut funding for schools etc etc, so it just adds up as hypocritical hogwash. Also, anyone who wants to block the possibility of abortion even in the case of rape or when the life of the mother is in danger, has some serious issues....

Let's not make over-generalizations here.  No one loves to "send kids off to die in wars" nor is anyone intentfully trying to hurt education.  Yes, there are those whom take the pro-life thing a little too far and won't make any exceptions.  But there are plenty of views on pro-life and many of them don't reach this conclusion.   

Oh, there are certainly people out there with serious war fetishes... I know a few myself....

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

There's a whole world outside of the faculty lounge, rockandroll!!    

Sure. So for example, there is the hospital lounge where I spent nearly every day of my life for three months (while undertaking a PhD degree) because my daughter was born three and a half months premature, weighing a pound and a half. Of course, after you are born, you inevitably lose weight so she ended up dropping down to a pound but by that time she started suffering from a level 3 brain bleed so we had to focus on other things. That was in October of 2010. Our New Year's Eve that year was watching our daughter slip into the early stages of meningitis about a month before she was supposed to come home. But eventually she pulled through and she just recently celebrated her 2nd birthday and appears to be in perfect health for a child her age (with our without prematurity). Hospital lounges are something that I had been familiar with already since my mother died of ovarian cancer at the age of 32 when I was three and half years old. She had been diagnosed with it 6 months after I was born.

I don't tell you this because I feel particularly special in this regard. Quite the oppose - I know that there are plenty of stories like this, and, in fact, I have only given you a very abridged version of my own experiences.

But I will say this, and you should follow it closely because these are the last words I will say to you: You are a piece of s#!t and just because you are so incapable of actually coming up with a response to what I have actually said and therefore rely on using the work that I do as some sort of dim-witted attempt to de-legitimize me, this ultimately gives you exactly zero grounds to even begin to comment on my experience with so-called "reality." You know exactly NOTHING about me, my experiences, or my life. And that you have even begun to presume that you do know something given the experiences that I have had is exactly what makes you scum. I have absolutely nothing more to say to you because you disgust me. And when you try to belittle my experiences with reality as you have done here and so have others, you unknowingly belittle the experiences that I described above and that is offensive both to me and my daughter who I watched struggle to stay alive for months. Now I most likely experienced reality in those three months more so than you probably will in your entire lifetime but I have never once used that as a way to try to de-legitimize your own points. I could have. But I am better than that. My hope is that you will say absolutely nothing more to me because that's the only response you will get from me from now on.

Calm down.

Fishmomk: thank you! You have officially confirmed that you are completely inhuman.....

[Dunderhead]

There's a whole world outside of the faculty lounge, rockandroll!!    

Sure. So for example, there is the hospital lounge where I spent nearly every day of my life for three months (while undertaking a PhD degree) because my daughter was born three and a half months premature, weighing a pound and a half. Of course, after you are born, you inevitably lose weight so she ended up dropping down to a pound but by that time she started suffering from a level 3 brain bleed so we had to focus on other things. That was in October of 2010. Our New Year's Eve that year was watching our daughter slip into the early stages of meningitis about a month before she was supposed to come home. But eventually she pulled through and she just recently celebrated her 2nd birthday and appears to be in perfect health for a child her age (with our without prematurity). Hospital lounges are something that I had been familiar with already since my mother died of ovarian cancer at the age of 32 when I was three and half years old. She had been diagnosed with it 6 months after I was born.

I don't tell you this because I feel particularly special in this regard. Quite the oppose - I know that there are plenty of stories like this, and, in fact, I have only given you a very abridged version of my own experiences.

But I will say this, and you should follow it closely because these are the last words I will say to you: You are a piece of s#!t and just because you are so incapable of actually coming up with a response to what I have actually said and therefore rely on using the work that I do as some sort of dim-witted attempt to de-legitimize me, this ultimately gives you exactly zero grounds to even begin to comment on my experience with so-called "reality." You know exactly NOTHING about me, my experiences, or my life. And that you have even begun to presume that you do know something given the experiences that I have had is exactly what makes you scum. I have absolutely nothing more to say to you because you disgust me. And when you try to belittle my experiences with reality as you have done here and so have others, you unknowingly belittle the experiences that I described above and that is offensive both to me and my daughter who I watched struggle to stay alive for months. Now I most likely experienced reality in those three months more so than you probably will in your entire lifetime but I have never once used that as a way to try to de-legitimize your own points. I could have. But I am better than that. My hope is that you will say absolutely nothing more to me because that's the only response you will get from me from now on.

Calm down.

Fishmomk: thank you! You have officially confirmed that you are completely inhuman.....

You too. Calm down.

[Awesoman]

Oh, there are certainly people out there with serious war fetishes... I know a few myself....

And I'm assuming they're tickled pink when one of their own gets killed in one?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Oh, there are certainly people out there with serious war fetishes... I know a few myself....

And I'm assuming they're tickled pink when one of their own gets killed in one?

These people usually don't serve or have kids that do. Or they're guys who served but never saw any action but sit and play Call of Duty 24/7

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Oh, there are certainly people out there with serious war fetishes... I know a few myself....

And I'm assuming they're tickled pink when one of their own gets killed in one?

And yes, I am making an over generalization here: I do realize that and don't feel good about it. But I'm just talking about people I know and experiences I've had.

[Awesoman]

I consider myself pro-life, with a few obvious exceptions.  I am not religious.  I simply believe that if a couple is sexually active, then they are taking the responsibility with it.  

But this is inconsistent with reality. As is well established by now, as women have more opportunities, more education, have access to better medical care, education, and family planning information, fertility rates go down and abortion goes down, and childen are better cared for and women are healthier. There are ways of saving hundreds of thousands of lives and actively reducing abortion levels that are well under social control that don't violate women's right to choose. But getting to that point demands an acknowledgement of reality - that being sexually responsible is a luxury that a particular class of society can have and that that luxury doesn't apply to everyone. So if you're serious about both being pro-life and being responsible, then to me the sensible option is not to oppose a woman's right to choose.

And this is where the impass is:  Those who are pro-life aren't actively trying to deny women of anything; they simply want to protect the life of an unborn baby.  Unfortunately, the issue has been spun out of control that this is conflicting with women's rights. I get that viewpoint, but simply reject that this is anyone's true intent.  Yet those who are pro-life are considered "women haters" by the pro-choice group.  This is unproductive and downright stupid.

[Awesoman]

Oh, there are certainly people out there with serious war fetishes... I know a few myself....

And I'm assuming they're tickled pink when one of their own gets killed in one?

And yes, I am making an over generalization here: I do realize that and don't feel good about it. But I'm just talking about people I know and experiences I've had.

Then hold *those* individuals accountable for their actions.  Please don't umbrella an entire group of people with such blanket statements. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Oh, there are certainly people out there with serious war fetishes... I know a few myself....

And I'm assuming they're tickled pink when one of their own gets killed in one?

And yes, I am making an over generalization here: I do realize that and don't feel good about it. But I'm just talking about people I know and experiences I've had.

Then hold *those* individuals accountable for their actions.  Please don't umbrella an entire group of people with such blanket statements. 

Well, they are certainly not the only people like that, but I hear ya.

[rab2591]

I consider myself pro-life, with a few obvious exceptions.  I am not religious.  I simply believe that if a couple is sexually active, then they are taking the responsibility with it.  

But this is inconsistent with reality. As is well established by now, as women have more opportunities, more education, have access to better medical care, education, and family planning information, fertility rates go down and abortion goes down, and childen are better cared for and women are healthier. There are ways of saving hundreds of thousands of lives and actively reducing abortion levels that are well under social control that don't violate women's right to choose. But getting to that point demands an acknowledgement of reality - that being sexually responsible is a luxury that a particular class of society can have and that that luxury doesn't apply to everyone. So if you're serious about both being pro-life and being responsible, then to me the sensible option is not to oppose a woman's right to choose.

And this is where the impass is:  Those who are pro-life aren't actively trying to deny women of anything; they simply want to protect the life of an unborn baby.  Unfortunately, the issue has been spun out of control that this is conflicting with women's rights. I get that viewpoint, but simply reject that this is anyone's true intent.  Yet those who are pro-life are considered "women haters" by the pro-choice group.  This is unproductive and downright stupid.

EXACTLY.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I consider myself pro-life, with a few obvious exceptions.  I am not religious.  I simply believe that if a couple is sexually active, then they are taking the responsibility with it.  

But this is inconsistent with reality. As is well established by now, as women have more opportunities, more education, have access to better medical care, education, and family planning information, fertility rates go down and abortion goes down, and childen are better cared for and women are healthier. There are ways of saving hundreds of thousands of lives and actively reducing abortion levels that are well under social control that don't violate women's right to choose. But getting to that point demands an acknowledgement of reality - that being sexually responsible is a luxury that a particular class of society can have and that that luxury doesn't apply to everyone. So if you're serious about both being pro-life and being responsible, then to me the sensible option is not to oppose a woman's right to choose.

And this is where the impass is:  Those who are pro-life aren't actively trying to deny women of anything; they simply want to protect the life of an unborn baby.  Unfortunately, the issue has been spun out of control that this is conflicting with women's rights. I get that viewpoint, but simply reject that this is anyone's true intent.  Yet those who are pro-life are considered "women haters" by the pro-choice group.  This is unproductive and downright stupid.

EXACTLY.

As long as this thoughtfulness toward the life of an unborn baby also extens to babies/kids AFTER they've been born: I'm fine with it. But I just don't think it's anyone's business to force a woman to bear a child. I'm not pro-abortion, I just don't think it's anyone's business but the woman, the father (if he's around and gives an F) and her doctor..... I mean, kids and babies are dying everyday from malnutrition and lack of access to health care and do you do anything about it?

[Awesoman]

I consider myself pro-life, with a few obvious exceptions.  I am not religious.  I simply believe that if a couple is sexually active, then they are taking the responsibility with it.  

But this is inconsistent with reality. As is well established by now, as women have more opportunities, more education, have access to better medical care, education, and family planning information, fertility rates go down and abortion goes down, and childen are better cared for and women are healthier. There are ways of saving hundreds of thousands of lives and actively reducing abortion levels that are well under social control that don't violate women's right to choose. But getting to that point demands an acknowledgement of reality - that being sexually responsible is a luxury that a particular class of society can have and that that luxury doesn't apply to everyone. So if you're serious about both being pro-life and being responsible, then to me the sensible option is not to oppose a woman's right to choose.

And this is where the impass is:  Those who are pro-life aren't actively trying to deny women of anything; they simply want to protect the life of an unborn baby.  Unfortunately, the issue has been spun out of control that this is conflicting with women's rights. I get that viewpoint, but simply reject that this is anyone's true intent.  Yet those who are pro-life are considered "women haters" by the pro-choice group.  This is unproductive and downright stupid.

EXACTLY.

As long as this thoughtfulness toward the life of an unborn baby also extens to babies/kids AFTER they've been born: I'm fine with it. But I just don't think it's anyone's business to force a woman to bear a child. I'm not pro-abortion, I just don't think it's anyone's business but the woman, the father (if he's around and gives an F) and her doctor.

Hey, if there were a magical switch that would create babies only when we wanted to have them, then all this would be moot.  There isn't one though.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I consider myself pro-life, with a few obvious exceptions.  I am not religious.  I simply believe that if a couple is sexually active, then they are taking the responsibility with it.  

But this is inconsistent with reality. As is well established by now, as women have more opportunities, more education, have access to better medical care, education, and family planning information, fertility rates go down and abortion goes down, and childen are better cared for and women are healthier. There are ways of saving hundreds of thousands of lives and actively reducing abortion levels that are well under social control that don't violate women's right to choose. But getting to that point demands an acknowledgement of reality - that being sexually responsible is a luxury that a particular class of society can have and that that luxury doesn't apply to everyone. So if you're serious about both being pro-life and being responsible, then to me the sensible option is not to oppose a woman's right to choose.

And this is where the impass is:  Those who are pro-life aren't actively trying to deny women of anything; they simply want to protect the life of an unborn baby.  Unfortunately, the issue has been spun out of control that this is conflicting with women's rights. I get that viewpoint, but simply reject that this is anyone's true intent.  Yet those who are pro-life are considered "women haters" by the pro-choice group.  This is unproductive and downright stupid.

EXACTLY.

As long as this thoughtfulness toward the life of an unborn baby also extens to babies/kids AFTER they've been born: I'm fine with it. But I just don't think it's anyone's business to force a woman to bear a child. I'm not pro-abortion, I just don't think it's anyone's business but the woman, the father (if he's around and gives an F) and her doctor.

Hey, if there were a magical switch that would create babies only when we wanted to have them, then all this would be moot.  There isn't one though.

No but there is a magic wand! But it's often used inappropriately! Doh!!!