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Author Topic: Question on BRI and Corporate votes  (Read 18952 times)
Tony S
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« on: September 23, 2012, 03:50:32 PM »

Maybe somebody can enlighten me. I saw an article on line today that said Mike Love was given control of the Beach Boys name a few years ago. This was somewhat news to me. I knew that Mike had the right to use the name for his tours. But do Brian, Al, and Carl's estate have the right to outvote Mike and gain back the right to use the name for touring purposes? Can Brian and Al go out as the Beach Boys, assuming Car's estate sided with them, and take that designation from Mike? Guess I don't understand why, if Brian and Al really want to remain in the band, why they can't tell Mike "here's the deal, accept it or we'll vote you out".

Can anyone enlighten me?
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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2012, 04:00:49 PM »

As far as we know they could do that and come to a tie at least, Carl's estate also has a vote. Just as they voted to give Mike the license to tour as The Beach Boys in the first place.
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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2012, 04:06:20 PM »

They have a business sense, though. If Brian and Al did that it would male them look so poorly.
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2012, 06:07:05 PM »

They have a business sense, though. If Brian and Al did that it would male them look so poorly.
To who?
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2012, 06:29:09 PM »

They have a business sense, though. If Brian and Al did that it would male them look so poorly.
To who?

The public.
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 07:25:36 PM »

 I don't see that making them look poorly to the public. the public just sees the BBs as whomever shows up these days. 
as to voting,  they're not going to vote away the source of income; each vote gets a share of the tour income. Mike gets more as a performer, but he's also tied into the tour income
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 07:57:19 PM »

I highly doubt the license will be taken from Mike. Maybe amended, but not taken.

If Brian and/or Al tries to revoke the license, they have to know that Mike will fight it, lawsuits will commence, and Mike would probably win. I mean, you better have valid grounds for wanting the license revoked. Hasn't Mike lived up to his part of the bargain when he was given the license via a vote? Has he does ANYTHING that has not complied with the agreement?

However, the main reason I CAN'T see the license taken away from Mike is a simple one - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If Brian and Al played it smart, they would allow Mike & Bruce to continue for what, another 5-6 years while they sit at home and collect a check. Or maybe I should ask that question; does Al get a percentage when he is not touring? Anyway, why ruin a good thing. Brian's been getting a check for NOT performing for 35 years or so. How long does Al expect this "reunion thing" to last anyway. The odds are that Mike & Bruce will outlast any other touring Beach Boys' configuration, especially one with Brian Wilson in it.

It's funny (actually it isn't) how Mike is the first to get labeled as money hungry. Yet, the whole license-giving to Mike - by Brian, Al, and Carl's estate - was motivated by one main thing. Making money from it.
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 01:55:36 AM »

I highly doubt the license will be taken from Mike. Maybe amended, but not taken.

If Brian and/or Al tries to revoke the license, they have to know that Mike will fight it, lawsuits will commence, and Mike would probably win. I mean, you better have valid grounds for wanting the license revoked. Hasn't Mike lived up to his part of the bargain when he was given the license via a vote? Has he does ANYTHING that has not complied with the agreement?

However, the main reason I CAN'T see the license taken away from Mike is a simple one - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If Brian and Al played it smart, they would allow Mike & Bruce to continue for what, another 5-6 years while they sit at home and collect a check. Or maybe I should ask that question; does Al get a percentage when he is not touring? Anyway, why ruin a good thing. Brian's been getting a check for NOT performing for 35 years or so. How long does Al expect this "reunion thing" to last anyway. The odds are that Mike & Bruce will outlast any other touring Beach Boys' configuration, especially one with Brian Wilson in it.

It's funny (actually it isn't) how Mike is the first to get labeled as money hungry. Yet, the whole license-giving to Mike - by Brian, Al, and Carl's estate - was motivated by one main thing. Making money from it.

I think these are some of the issues that some fans prefer to ignore.

For example, when Al was banned from touring as Beach Boys Family and Friends there was a lot of anti-Mike comment. What people forgot was that it was Al who was using the name without permission and that he wasn`t paying the other band members for it. The fact that money was a key issue for Brian (or his management) can be seen from the fact that he was happy to stop that band, which included his daughters, from touring.

Al has obviously been bitter in the past towards Mike but it must be said that Mike has done a very good, professional job with the touring outfit since 1998. Since then he has made Brian, Al and Carl`s estate an awful lot of money without them having to do anything so, as you`ve implied, it would be nuts for them to stop that now.
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 01:59:18 AM »

I highly doubt the license will be taken from Mike. Maybe amended, but not taken.

If Brian and/or Al tries to revoke the license, they have to know that Mike will fight it, lawsuits will commence, and Mike would probably win. I mean, you better have valid grounds for wanting the license revoked. Hasn't Mike lived up to his part of the bargain when he was given the license via a vote? Has he does ANYTHING that has not complied with the agreement?

However, the main reason I CAN'T see the license taken away from Mike is a simple one - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If Brian and Al played it smart, they would allow Mike & Bruce to continue for what, another 5-6 years while they sit at home and collect a check. Or maybe I should ask that question; does Al get a percentage when he is not touring? Anyway, why ruin a good thing. Brian's been getting a check for NOT performing for 35 years or so. How long does Al expect this "reunion thing" to last anyway. The odds are that Mike & Bruce will outlast any other touring Beach Boys' configuration, especially one with Brian Wilson in it.

It's funny (actually it isn't) how Mike is the first to get labeled as money hungry. Yet, the whole license-giving to Mike - by Brian, Al, and Carl's estate - was motivated by one main thing. Making money from it.

I think these are some of the issues that some fans prefer to ignore.

For example, when Al was banned from touring as Beach Boys Family and Friends there was a lot of anti-Mike comment. What people forgot was that it was Al who was using the name without permission and that he wasn`t paying the other band members for it. The fact that money was a key issue for Brian (or his management) can be seen from the fact that he was happy to stop that band, which included his daughters, from touring.

Al has obviously been bitter in the past towards Mike but it must be said that Mike has done a very good, professional job with the touring outfit since 1998. Since then he has made Brian, Al and Carl`s estate an awful lot of money without them having to do anything so, as you`ve implied, it would be nuts for them to stop that now.


Well, maybe not for all of that time. Things did get dire for a while there, but he's picked it up recently -2008 onwards ish.
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Nicko1234
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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 02:10:40 AM »


Well, maybe not for all of that time. Things did get dire for a while there, but he's picked it up recently -2008 onwards ish.

Nah, from a professional perspective as I said (not talking about the music here) he has always done a good job. Playing loads of dates, selling tickets and keeping the costs down. He has made stacks of money for the other guys and I don`t think that Al or Brian could have (and maybe wouldn`t have wanted to) toured like that.
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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2012, 02:58:16 AM »


If Brian and/or Al tries to revoke the license, they have to know that Mike will fight it, lawsuits will commence, and Mike would probably win.

Why do you think that? I can't see anything that Mike could do if Brian, Al and Carl's estate vote for him not being able to tour under the name. What coul he sue them for?  Huh
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2012, 04:38:24 AM »


If Brian and/or Al tries to revoke the license, they have to know that Mike will fight it, lawsuits will commence, and Mike would probably win.

Why do you think that? I can't see anything that Mike could do if Brian, Al and Carl's estate vote for him not being able to tour under the name. What coul he sue them for?  Huh

The 3-1 vote wasn't for Mike to tour as The Beach Boys, it was to establish the license that grants the name. As long as the terms of said license aren't revised and as long as he adheres to them, he can tour as The Beach Boys.

Over on the Bloo there's currently a mindless witch hunt to strip Mike of the right to tour as the BB, solely, as far as I can see, because he isn't Brian. Just when I think they can't get any stupider over there, they go and prove me wrong. I'm guessing if Brian had put out a press release stating that Mike, Alan, Bruce & David weren't touring with him post 9/28, he'd have got three cheers, the keys to the city and a Nobel Prize.
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2012, 05:15:03 AM »


If Brian and/or Al tries to revoke the license, they have to know that Mike will fight it, lawsuits will commence, and Mike would probably win.

Why do you think that? I can't see anything that Mike could do if Brian, Al and Carl's estate vote for him not being able to tour under the name. What coul he sue them for?  Huh

The 3-1 vote wasn't for Mike to tour as The Beach Boys, it was to establish the license that grants the name. As long as the terms of said license aren't revised and as long as he adheres to them, he can tour as The Beach Boys.

Over on the Bloo there's currently a mindless witch hunt to strip Mike of the right to tour as the BB, solely, as far as I can see, because he isn't Brian. Just when I think they can't get any stupider over there, they go and prove me wrong. I'm guessing if Brian had put out a press release stating that Mike, Alan, Bruce & David weren't touring with him post 9/28, he'd have got three cheers, the keys to the city and a Nobel Prize.


So there is not an annual vote on the renewal of using the license?  It is indefinite?
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 06:30:28 AM »

I'd think Brian is in a good spot...he's going to collect touring revenue from the Mike and Bruce Show AND he can still go out and do his own thing...with the possibility of still working with Mike and Bruce again.  Does Al have a similar agreement?  Does he collect a percentage of the touring band's revenue?  Dave kind of gets lost in the shuffle.  It's really sad that after all these years they just can't let it go.  Why does there still have to be so much drama?  It's really too bad.  It's a fine line in regards to the touring band.  Mike puts on a good show.  His current band is good.  It's a genuinely fun experience to catch him live...but is it the Beach Boys?  I remember the last time I saw them live pre-reunion and while I was having a great time (heck, it was summer...we were outside...and the crowd was really into it)...I couldn't help but think wow...Brian Wilson is not on stage.  Al Jardine is not on stage.  Carl and Dennis have both passed away.  It took a bit of the shine off of the evening for me.  Maybe the real question is what is their legacy worth?  Is it enough for Mike and Bruce to simply carry on the name...churning out show-after-show...or does their legacy demand more?  Is it sacred enough that it shouldn't be treated as a commodity?  Should there be some sort of understanding between the surviving members in regards to everything they have created...all the good memories...the incredible music...and how they want to be remembered?
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 06:54:47 AM »

I'd think Brian is in a good spot...he's going to collect touring revenue from the Mike and Bruce Show AND he can still go out and do his own thing...with the possibility of still working with Mike and Bruce again.  Does Al have a similar agreement?  Does he collect a percentage of the touring band's revenue?  Dave kind of gets lost in the shuffle.  It's really sad that after all these years they just can't let it go.  Why does there still have to be so much drama?  It's really too bad.  It's a fine line in regards to the touring band.  Mike puts on a good show.  His current band is good.  It's a genuinely fun experience to catch him live...but is it the Beach Boys?  I remember the last time I saw them live pre-reunion and while I was having a great time (heck, it was summer...we were outside...and the crowd was really into it)...I couldn't help but think wow...Brian Wilson is not on stage.  Al Jardine is not on stage.  Carl and Dennis have both passed away.  It took a bit of the shine off of the evening for me.  Maybe the real question is what is their legacy worth?  Is it enough for Mike and Bruce to simply carry on the name...churning out show-after-show...or does their legacy demand more?  Is it sacred enough that it shouldn't be treated as a commodity?  Should there be some sort of understanding between the surviving members in regards to everything they have created...all the good memories...the incredible music...and how they want to be remembered?
Just remember, for all the crap that goes on between the band members and the different incarnations of the touring band, what they will be remembered for is what was recorded to tape; the music. Think about it, all the bad press about the Davies Brothers, Mick & Keith, even Roger & Pete at times. None of that crap matters in the long run. You are remembered in history for what you did, In terms of music, The Beach Boys did a lot to be remembered for, and they will be too.
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2012, 07:27:24 AM »

I'd think Brian is in a good spot...he's going to collect touring revenue from the Mike and Bruce Show AND he can still go out and do his own thing...with the possibility of still working with Mike and Bruce again.  Does Al have a similar agreement?  Does he collect a percentage of the touring band's revenue?

Bruce has said in the past that Brian, Al and Carl`s estate all get paid.
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2012, 08:10:44 AM »

So there is not an annual vote on the renewal of using the license?  It is indefinite?

I think this is a very valid and important question. If there is a term in the contract, and the term expires, it would be much easier to "vote to not renew" and take the licensing rights from Mike. A term is a term. It should be spelled out clearly in the contract.

But, if they (Al and/or Brian) are looking for "something" (i.e. Mike is not representing the true Beach Boys legitimately by not including x,y, or z) to take the licensing rights from Mike, I'm not so sure they could call an emergency vote for the intention of changing or stripping the license. That would be quite a power play. Wouldn't they have to PROVE that Mike was not fulfilling his part of the contract. I'm no legal scholar but I think they'd be asking for trouble. Again, I'm just speculating.
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2012, 09:07:33 AM »


If Brian and/or Al tries to revoke the license, they have to know that Mike will fight it, lawsuits will commence, and Mike would probably win.

Why do you think that? I can't see anything that Mike could do if Brian, Al and Carl's estate vote for him not being able to tour under the name. What coul he sue them for?  Huh

The 3-1 vote wasn't for Mike to tour as The Beach Boys, it was to establish the license that grants the name. As long as the terms of said license aren't revised and as long as he adheres to them, he can tour as The Beach Boys.



Ah, ok! Thanks for that. I didn't know it was that way.


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Over on the Bloo there's currently a mindless witch hunt to strip Mike of the right to tour as the BB, solely, as far as I can see, because he isn't Brian.

Isn't that always the reason for everything bad over there? It's sad how all of this turned out to be such a big fuss, while the Beach Boys themselves probably don't know anything about it and have a great time together in London (the latter of course is a nice thing). I hope all this cheap propaganda doesn't have much influence for the individuals
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2012, 10:17:46 AM »

I guess my questiions would be, if Al and Brian have the right to join the touring band if they want. Or is it Mike's gig and he can exclude them? I would guess as long as the term of the license, Mike can decide on logistics and makeup of the band. Presumably, Al and Brian joining would mean paying more money to add them and thus decreasing profits. Maybe in a renewed agreement Al or Brian might want to vote for a join the band clause....hope this makes sense.

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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2012, 10:40:44 AM »

Mike has never shied away from the fact that he likes his current tours to be quick, dirty and cheap.  Adding Brian and Al (and even Dave) would definitely add to the expense.  That said...they would be able to charge more for tickets and play larger venues.  The last time I saw the touring band was for free at a local county fair.
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2012, 11:05:25 AM »

The general idea that's been put around among fans over the years is that the "corporate" members are Brian, Mike, Al, and Carl's estate. But we obviously don't know what they vote for, or when they vote for it.

Online articles have sometimes stated Mike owns or controls the name. I think usually those articles are just simplifying it or not understanding the licensing arrangement, simply assuming that since he has used the name for umpteen years, he owns it.

I think there was a blurb written by somebody online that mentioned that Brian gave over control of the name to Mike at some point during one of the lawsuits. We simply don't know if this is the case or not. I do remember hearing from some folks online several years ago that Brian had not given over control of the name or actual ownership, but simply was voting along with Mike due to various degrees of leverage being asserted due to past lawsuits. I got the sense that there was nothing contractually obligating Brian to vote with Mike or anything along those lines, but simply that it was mutually beneficial for Brian to do so (and I'm talking outside of the normal reasons; e.g. Brian making a percentage of the proceeds of Mike's licensing fee).

In any event, I highly doubt Brian ever gave up his ownership stake in the "Beach Boys" trademark.
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2012, 11:07:53 AM »

I don't see that making them look poorly to the public. the public just sees the BBs as whomever shows up these days. 
as to voting,  they're not going to vote away the source of income; each vote gets a share of the tour income. Mike gets more as a performer, but he's also tied into the tour income

I agree. If Mike doesn't even come off as looking bad to the "general public" due their lack of intertest in any details of the situation, then certainly they wouldn't be paying attention to Brian and Al's votes within the corporate BB structure, etc. I suppose if they tried to pull the license and it devolved into all sorts of lawsuits, that would make everybody look bad on both sides.
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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2012, 11:15:22 AM »

I think these are some of the issues that some fans prefer to ignore.

For example, when Al was banned from touring as Beach Boys Family and Friends there was a lot of anti-Mike comment. What people forgot was that it was Al who was using the name without permission and that he wasn`t paying the other band members for it. The fact that money was a key issue for Brian (or his management) can be seen from the fact that he was happy to stop that band, which included his daughters, from touring.

Al came out on the wrong side of those name-related lawsuits for the most part, but I think it's worth noting that he did make legal arguments to attempt to support it. That whole "Family and Friends" thing was pretty hazy, even after reading the lawsuit documents that were available to the public. There were "non-exclusive" licenses potentially floating out there for awhile, and then seperate issues regarding Al simply being able to bill himself as a "Beach Boy", or "of the Beach Boys." Al eventually did retain that right, to simply call himself a Beach Boy.

Most of the anti-Mike sentiment back around that time didn't have anything to do with who had licenses to use the trademark and whatnot. It simply had to do with Mike using the name based on the lineup that had, in a matter months to a year and a half, dwindled from four to two Beach Boys.
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2012, 11:19:23 AM »

I'd think Brian is in a good spot...he's going to collect touring revenue from the Mike and Bruce Show AND he can still go out and do his own thing...with the possibility of still working with Mike and Bruce again.  Does Al have a similar agreement?  Does he collect a percentage of the touring band's revenue?

Bruce has said in the past that Brian, Al and Carl`s estate all get paid.

But this has been twisted by some fans into those parties making an equal cut of the revenue. They only get their share of the licensing fee. The licensing fee would presumably be split between Brian, Mike, Al, and Carl's estate. What is the licensing fee? We obviously don't know. In general terms in these sort of cases, it can be something like X number of dollars against or in additional to a percentage of revenue. Long story short, they all make money off the tour, but far less than if they were in the touring band splitting it equally. I don't think it's the same setup at all as in the old days when the Mike/Carl/Al/Dennis lineup was sharing some proceeds with Brian while Brian wasn't on the road.
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2012, 02:17:30 PM »

Good point.  The person who would stand to lose the most is Al.  Brian has proven himself to be a very viable solo commodity.  There is no reason to think that he couldn't simply revert to what he was doing last year... and the year before... and on and on.  Al Jardine, by himself, isn't the live draw of Brian Wilson or even of the Mike/Bruce lead Beach Boys touring band.  In fact, it would seem (to me, at least) that Brian holds most of the cards.  Brian can command higher ticket prices than anyone else (correct?).  Mike and Bruce WITH Brian could command higher ticket prices than they could alone.  The issue is whether or not Brian wants to do that. 
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