Alan Boyd Lecture

[Dunderhead]

The whole idea of The Elements "suite" just feels wrong to me. Through the years fans have been really dead set on its' existence, but personally I'm kind of sick of fanmixes that try and shoehorn in anything and everything as being the missing parts. Firstly, a single song called "The Elements" containing a continuous medley of four sections each representing fire, earth, air and water seems really out of character.

Nonetheless, that's exactly how VDP described it as to me when I asked him about Smile in general some years ago. In response to my asking about segues/crossfades between tracks, he stated that there were never intended to be any, except within one track, and that that track was "The Elements". That he volunteered this information essentially unprompted, and in reply to an almost completely different question (he could have just as easily said "no": actually, it being Van Dyke, no, he wouldn't, but you get my drift) strikes me as significant.  I think he'd know.

Very interesting AGD, thanks for sharing that information. I agree with you that Van Dyke would certainly be the ultimate or penultimate authority here, but I'm wondering if you can expand a little as to what you mean by 'segue' and 'crossfade'. Doesn't Heroes and Villains have multiple segues in the form of linking elements like "Bridge to Indians", "Pickup to 3rd verse", and "Soul Made Beautiful"? And with regards to crossfading, Fire doesn't end with a fade so how would crossfading be possible there?

[Dunderhead]

"The Elements" is recorded in 2 parts. This is a fact that a lot of fans have never really picked up on. "The Elements: Part 1" is not the actual name of the song, what's being recorded in that particular take is just slated as "Part 1", the ending part, the part where Brian talks about the drums "putting out" or "blowing out" the basses is actually recorded in a separate take from the rest of the song, "Part 2".

You're making a definitive, unequivocal statement here: care to support it with proof ? Plus, the session isn't logged as part 1, part 2 or part 2580 - it's logged as "The Elements (Fire)". You've also been rather selective in reporting how the track was slated by the engineer: what he actually says is "OK, The Elements, ah, part one, Fire, take one", The addition of that single word "Fire" changes the context and meaning entirely.

I do think that's an entirely factual assertion, there are two separate parts recorded in two separate takes edited together on the final track. The 'tag', the "blowing out" ending part is recorded as a separate take, specifically takes 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, and 18 as can be heard on Unsurpassed Masters 17, and also on TSS box.

My only point is that according to the paradigm Brian had been using in calling things "Part 1/2/3/4", "The Elements: Part 1" does not necessarily correspond to the entirety of what we know as "Fire", but could refer to the section recorded in takes 1-7 with "Part 2" naturally being the section recorded in takes 15-18.

[Cam Mott]

There is a convention in the booklet, Elements is shown as a title and Vega-tables is shown as a lyric of Elements.

I'm not sure why all the scepticism about the List. The titles shown are only titles Brian recorded. Brian as Producer had the obligation of approving that list. Brian did not go along to avoid, he just said no and did what he wanted to do or did not do what he did not want to do and avoided all together.  Imo opinion he demonstrated that he did not go along or do things just to please Capitol or whoever. If he was not ready or the product was not ready he just let Capitol wait.

[Andrew G. Doe]

"The Elements" is recorded in 2 parts. This is a fact that a lot of fans have never really picked up on. "The Elements: Part 1" is not the actual name of the song, what's being recorded in that particular take is just slated as "Part 1", the ending part, the part where Brian talks about the drums "putting out" or "blowing out" the basses is actually recorded in a separate take from the rest of the song, "Part 2".

You're making a definitive, unequivocal statement here: care to support it with proof ? Plus, the session isn't logged as part 1, part 2 or part 2580 - it's logged as "The Elements (Fire)". You've also been rather selective in reporting how the track was slated by the engineer: what he actually says is "OK, The Elements, ah, part one, Fire, take one", The addition of that single word "Fire" changes the context and meaning entirely.

I do think that's an entirely factual assertion, there are two separate parts recorded in two separate takes edited together on the final track. The 'tag', the "blowing out" ending part is recorded as a separate take, specifically takes 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, and 18 as can be heard on Unsurpassed Masters 17, and also on TSS box.

Agreed... but that's "Fire", not the whole "Elements", as evidenced by the engineer (as previously stated) and the AFM sheet.  I have this unfortunate propensity for using words to convey their exact meaning, not applying the title for a part to the whole, for example.  

I'm wondering if you can expand a little as to what you mean by 'segue' and 'crossfade'. Doesn't Heroes and Villains have multiple segues in the form of linking elements like "Bridge to Indians", "Pickup to 3rd verse", and "Soul Made Beautiful"? And with regards to crossfading, Fire doesn't end with a fade so how would crossfading be possible there?

Surely: a common theory at the time was that, as per Pepper, Smile would have been essentially bandless with individual songs crossfading/segueing into each other. The double album notion was also prevalent, so I asked him about that, and his response was, concisely, that Smile was to be a single album with banded tracks, no crossfades or segues between them but that one track would have such internal transitions, and he named it as "The Elements". As for "Fire" having a definite end, well, isn't it obvious ? It's the last section of the 'suite'.   The only source for it being followed by anything at all is, to be charitable, of questionable integrity where strict historical accuracy is concerned.

[Dunderhead]

"The Elements" is recorded in 2 parts. This is a fact that a lot of fans have never really picked up on. "The Elements: Part 1" is not the actual name of the song, what's being recorded in that particular take is just slated as "Part 1", the ending part, the part where Brian talks about the drums "putting out" or "blowing out" the basses is actually recorded in a separate take from the rest of the song, "Part 2".

You're making a definitive, unequivocal statement here: care to support it with proof ? Plus, the session isn't logged as part 1, part 2 or part 2580 - it's logged as "The Elements (Fire)". You've also been rather selective in reporting how the track was slated by the engineer: what he actually says is "OK, The Elements, ah, part one, Fire, take one", The addition of that single word "Fire" changes the context and meaning entirely.

I do think that's an entirely factual assertion, there are two separate parts recorded in two separate takes edited together on the final track. The 'tag', the "blowing out" ending part is recorded as a separate take, specifically takes 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, and 18 as can be heard on Unsurpassed Masters 17, and also on TSS box.

Agreed... but that's "Fire", not the whole "Elements", as evidenced by the  engineer (as previously stated) and the AFM sheet.  I have this unfortunate propensity for using words to convey their exact meaning, not applying the title for a part to the whole, for example. 

Now that's some pernicious logic! I feel like you should be a lawyer AGD. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

True... but it is still logic. 

[mike s]

hi Klingsor - I'd have to dig through LLVS and I don't have time at the mo but I'm sure other old hands can verify what I'm saying - this has all been hashed out years ago

I'm working just on facts - speculation is fine as it can lead to interesting stuff but the 2 approaches should not be confused

[mike s]

hi Andrew I think we're on the same page apart from this:  'As for "Fire" having a definite end, well, isn't it obvious ? It's the last section of the 'suite'. '

I think the hard ending of 'fire' makes it much more likely to not be the last part - I think another piece would have followed straight after it - as far as I'm aware Brian never ended songs any way other than fading - sections within songs had hard endings, sure...

[mike s]

hang on is 'klingsor' actually 'fishmonk..?

slightly confused..?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I could say that I am actually Dr. Primrose, but that would only further muddy the increasingly opaque waters, not to mention being cruel and heartless.

[Cam Mott]

Have we seen images of the Fire tapebox? My memory is the ending on Fire isn't a second part but an insert to correct the ending of "part 1", is that wrong? Maybe I should listen first? Nah.

[c-man]

Have we seen images of the Fire tapebox? My memory is the ending on Fire isn't a second part but an insert to correct the ending of "part 1", is that wrong? Maybe I should listen first? Nah.

Yes, that's basically it...on the tapebox, the title is written as "The Elements - Part One (Fire)".  As I wrote in the box set's sessionography, the "Master is edit of Takes 2 & 9 & Take 18 (Pickup)".  Take 18 was the ending, recorded as an edit piece which was then spliced onto the master, which was itself an edit of Takes 2 & 9.  Nothing on the tape box was labeled as Part Two.  Interestingly, there was another session for something labled as "Part One" (according to the AFM contract), on Jan. 23rd, but that APPEARS to have been a sting & woodwind overdub session for a new, missing version of  "Surf's Up" (as the contract is notated "Sweetening")...BUT you just never know.    Carol Kaye (I know, I know...) has recalled that Brian intended "Fire" to be followed by "I Wanna Be Around (To Pick Up The Pieces"), as that implies rebuilding after a fire.   My theory is that Brian originally intended "Fire" to be the first of a four-part "Elements" Suite, but soon after recording it, he either lost interest or began shuffling the playing order in his mind, so that "Fire" wouldn't necessarily have been Part One of the Suite a month later, or the following spring (assuming he would've even still included it at all by then).  See, SMiLE was an ever-evolving project to Brian, so to my way of thinking, there's not much point in speculating, or obsessing, on what the "difinitive" track lineup would have been, as there never was a "fixed" lineup at any given point, just a lot of ever-changing possibilities.

 

[runnersdialzero]

See, SMiLE was an ever-evolving project to Brian, so to my way of thinking, there's not much point in speculating, or obsessing, on what the "difinitive" track lineup would have been, as there never was a "fixed" lineup at any given point, just a lot of ever-changing possibilities.

Yes. I wanted to say the same thing.

[Peter Reum]

I think, given the ambiguity regarding an Elements Suite in the Sixties, that given the evolution of Smile into a percformance piece in 2003, that in this case, Brian's judgement in that time will be the decision that will have to be considered final. That is not to say it would have been that way in the Sixties, but the way things turned out in 2003 will be the way it will be defined for future performance purposes. Sadly, I happen to agree with Craig, in that Brian lost focus back in the Sixties in the flux of the demand for a finished single and lp.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Read through the elements sections of LLVS, talks a lot about Friday Night being a part of LTSDD, maybe even a link between Fire -> IWBA ->LTSDD ?

[Camus]

I did a Humble Harv type mix of H&V - it follows the form of the Cantina mix up until Cantina and then goes to IIGS - BY - OMP - YAMS - False Barnyard fade.  IT works quite well.

[Micha]

My H&V fan mix that satisfies me:

http://www.michael-fredrich.de/HeroesAndVillainsMicha.mp3

as far as I'm aware Brian never ended songs any way other than fading

There's a few on Summer Days: Girl Don't Tell Me and the last three on side two.

See, SMiLE was an ever-evolving project to Brian, so to my way of thinking, there's not much point in speculating, or obsessing, on what the "difinitive" track lineup would have been, as there never was a "fixed" lineup at any given point, just a lot of ever-changing possibilities.

I absolutely agree. There's still people who think that somewhere in the vast amount of sessions "THE SMiLE" as Brian "originally envisioned" lies hidden. There is no such a thing.

And regardless whether Brian had input to the handwritten list or not: the fact that OMP had been put in brackets which then have been crossed out IMHO is proof that at the very time it was written the lineup was still being thought about. "(counts) That's eleven songs now... What will I write as twelth track? (thinks) I'll write OMP. (writes it down) Or should I? (Puts brackets around OMP) Oh well, what the heck. (crosses out brackets)."

All you can do is compile the SMiLE you like best. If you're into "historical accuracy" and want to use the cantina version, you'll have to use the Rock Me Henry version of Wonderful, as they were worked on about the same time. And who would want THAT?

[buddhahat]

See, SMiLE was an ever-evolving project to Brian, so to my way of thinking, there's not much point in speculating, or obsessing, on what the "difinitive" track lineup would have been, as there never was a "fixed" lineup at any given point, just a lot of ever-changing possibilities.

 

No, I think defining an historically accurate track list will have anyone going around in circles, but I do think it's fascinating focusing on tracks and trying to pick out little threads and ideas that Brian was having at specific times during the sessions.

That's why Carol Kaye's recollection about Fire is so interesting - put Fire next to IWBA/FN and you have a fully functioning (and rather brilliant) Smile track. You don't even need any editing techniques to put those two together - just reprogram the cd player! I appreciate it all hangs on the veracity of Kaye's claim here, but really - there are not two other sections (aside from maybe parts of H&V) that fit together in a more satisfying, humorous and narrative way than Fire + IWBA + Workshop imo. And it's really musical too. That change in tempo: The lazy swing of IWBA that sounds like the last embers dying down. It amazes me that so many people reject it. Talk about wood and trees! It's instant Elements, or the closest thing we have to a finished Elements track, and the evidence to back it up is pretty good as far as I'm concerned - far, far stronger than the idea that Fire would've been followed by water. I find that sequencing decision rather predictable and flat in comparison although I can't really argue with the guys that chose to do it that way!

[Micha]

So is this thread closed now? Pity, it was pretty interesting.

[buddhahat]

So is this thread closed now? Pity, it was pretty interesting.

Yeah, agreed. Maybe it's worth having a rolling smile discussion thread ...

[Micha]

So is this thread closed now? Pity, it was pretty interesting.

Yeah, agreed. Maybe it's worth having a rolling smile discussion thread ...

My latest self-rolled SMiLE (my 5th) happened to not include any IWBA/Woodshop nor Sleep A Lot. Guess I'll go back to version 4...

[Dunderhead]

http://smileysmile.wikkii.com/wiki/Heroes_and_Villains/Sessions

[Aegir]

what does that asterisk mean after Brian Wilson?

[Dunderhead]

I was going to put a key with crosses and asterisks and stuff with some information, *=lead vocal for example. Haven't gotten around to it, I just wanted to share that page here because it's a more useful sessionography than what's in the book. Not because the information is new, but just because it's in table form and easier to scan.

[Dunderhead]

Seeing it like that is interesting, especially because it's easier to compare master numbers. what do you guys think of Brian's master numbers? 57020 seems to represent work done on the Cantina version. I think the 57020 period corresponds to Brian's absolute creative zenith and his failure there in assembling a mix that satisfied him was sort of the core disappointed of his life, the one that all his misfortunes seemed to converge upon, and the one that reverberated throughout the rest of his life affecting everything thereafter. All his sorrows collapse upon that single point like a thousand instruments reduced into nothingness on a Phil Spector record. That was his moment, it's like it's all right there, everything he ever was, a microcosm of the entirety of his mind and self.