The Smiley Smile Message Board

 Hmmm... Haven't seen this posted here ( and I did search for it) 
  From the Pet Sounds list: 

>>PSML friends,

I would like to take the opportunity to invite any interested peeps in the
Bloomington, Indy, L-ville, Cincy areas to attend a lecture on Monday October, 1
@ 12:15 in Sweeney Hall (M015) of the Simon Building @ Indiana University in
Bloomington featuring Mr. Alan Boyd.

Alan, as you should know, has been the curator of the BB archives, the director
of the Endless Harmony film, co-producer of the Hawthorne, Ca. set and the Smile
reissue. He is a talented musician in his own right, having toured with Adam
Marsland's Chaos Band's brilliant "The Songs of Dennis and Carl Wilson" tour and
putting out his own LP "Channel Surfing" that contains many fine BB/BW inspired
tracks.

Most of you probably saw the press release a month or so ago regarding the
semester long Beach Boy class at IU's Jacob School of Musics'  "History of Rock
'N' Roll" department. The class, taught by my friend Associate Professor Andy
Hollinden, has been a huge success so far especially with all the "50th" hubub.
I am proud to have played a behind the scenes part in helping Andy develop the
class by providing materials from my archives and facilitating Alan's
appearance. Andy is encouraging any fans who would like to check out Alan's
lecture and participate in the question and answer period to "come on down".
Most likely, some of us fanatics will meet afterwards at a bar for lunch, etc.
No need to RSVP or anything like that, but if you care to contact me personally
for any other info, please do so.
 
Hope to see some of you soon,

Jeff Green  AKA Cal Muse
Bloomington, IN. <<   

Good to see Alan is feeling better!

Seconded, and I hope the full text of the lecture (perhaps with discussion included) will reach these hallowed shores eventually.

And the audio portions. ;D

Oh, another Vigotone release on the horizon then?

I'm going.   :)

Take your recorder, then!

I'll be there! B-town is close to home, looking forward to it. I will be taking notes and will post them when I get the chance. Hope to meet some local fans. I don't wanna be too fanboy-esc but I really feel like bringing something for Alan to sign, Hawthorne CA or Endless Harmony or one of the pieces from the Smile Boxset. Would he be annoyed if I asked him for his autograph? Hope we get to listen to some "new" items along the way. Also, with my birthday being on Oct. 5th, it seems like this will be a great present!

Yeah, get him to sign your Smile LP!

Ask him about the "Child is Father of the Man" acetate, dammit! W,W,W,W,W, & H.

I've been thinkin about what to ask him. So many things to ask but I dont want to look like a tool or go too far as status quo is concerned. Anyone wanna throw some questions out there?

Should I have him sign the LP that i have opened? or I have one in the wrap unopened too...which one?

I can't promise that I'll ask your question, especially if there's a lot of folks who respond, but I'll think about it.

The opened one - signatures don't really come out that well on shrink. Have fun!

Thanks!
So who all is comin?

Seriously, folks, anyone going please try to tape it. As long as Alan is comfortable with that. There are very few people with the full package of skills needed to wade through the many minefields laid down by the BB's long and winding career, and we've all been lucky that he has devoted so much of his time to patiently, relentlessly lobbying for the type of release program that has done so much to open up our eyes and ears. Anything he has to say, particularly in a classroom setting, is 1000% worth recording for posterity.

I have no recording equipment. Used to have a cassette recorder, have no idea where that is. But I will be typing/taking notes.

I'm also creating a card for Mr. Boyd. It's a collage I've been working on, collaging is my specialty. It's going to be a thank you card from us on the Smiley board, unless anyone objects to it. It's a collage of pics from virtually most every realm of Beach Boys era.

Thanks, I hope to take pictures of the card before I give it to him, but I know it's gonna be hard to part with. I already have the cover done and I want it for myself.

You should you post the collage up for everyone here to see. I know I for one would love to see it.

I most certainly will. I'm working on the inside cover, it's as big as a file folder. I prolly won't get done until the end of the week though.

And honestly, it'd be great to generate some opinions and if some really like it, you could check out my girlfriend's and I Etsy site (Paper Plethora), where you could specially order something just like it. A collage on a card or posterboard or bookmark. We'll take orders with specific ideas/pictures/themes.

Just got back from the lecture and meet up a few hours ago and it was fantastic!
There's 120 students in the class. It lasted a little over two hours. The class recently viewed Beautiful Dreamer. They're using Catch A Wave as the main book to read, which is a great read and ironically something I read during my college days. And today just happen to be the lecture on SMiLE, how awesome is that? We watched the GV/Smile segment of Alan's Endless Harmony doc. He played the class snippets of H&V and a lot of vegetables and sections of cabinessence. There were a lot of great questions raised by the students and not just us fanboys who came along to hear Alan speak. I asked about the "reconnect the telephone lines" lyrics for cabinessence and asked if they were ever found, but they were not. A student asked about Barnyard, just wanted to know everything about it. Alan replied that it was to be about this character 'Barnyard Billy' that loved his chicken and it was to be part of H&V. Then when he went to re-edit H&V for a single in 67, he changed it to the 'in the cantina' section that we all know and love. Jeff Green brought in some great Smile artifacts, I know there were pictures taken by Randy Hutchinson and he'll be using them for Endless Summer Quarterly, I believe. Jeff brought things from BWPS autographed to TSS, TSS 2-disc set, the vigotone (what I was told) cd set, 2 or 3 original Smile boots on vinyl (which was great to see, hadn't seen em in person before). Alan Boyd was in great spirits and really funny, his BW impression is spot on. Those who met up (about 5-6 of us) went to a local bar and talked for about 2-3 hours. It was a great time and a great early birthday present to myself.

Thanks much for the update, Punkinhead. You can count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who know as much about the BB's as Alan does...and that includes the BB's themselves! Glad it was so rewarding!

Here's my original notes which I re-edited myself to make more sense for everyone else reading, I'm sure there's things I may have repeated earlier, I just wanted to include it all at once and I'm sure there's things you already know, I'm just reporting what happened:

Started with 10 minutes footage of Smile from Endless Harmony

There are 120 students enrolled in class. The class has viewed Beautiful Dreamer. The class is reading Catch a Wave by Peter Ames Carlin.

When Brian was feeling good about BWPS, he wasn’t even talking out of the side of his mouth when he performed Smile in 2004.

75 reels of material of BB Smile material were found, 16 reels of those were for Good vibrations. This was the hardest project Alan has ever worked on. 

Missing pieces:  folks years ago had stolen.  Capitol was acting like it was easy to put together (TSS).   One reason why it didn’t come out was there was nothing to edit it all together.  Brian had made some edits to smile but they were clunky.  No technological way to edit it together.  The songs were changing the songs on a daily basis. H&V Part 2 (4 or 5 things labeled part 2).  Smile was a time where Brian went over the edge and never came back, Mike felt that he lost his friend and cousin.  2 years of speed and pot use didn’t help his concentration.  Alan think’s Brian likes the mix, not much feedback from Brian…he had a lot of faith in Alan and Mark L.  If they had the ability to release Smile, they wouldn’t have released Smiley Smile (obviously). Acetates and test edits of putting H&V and Vegetables together found in the vaults. Dennis Wolf from Capitol, asking to fade the songs and “those songs are really weird.”  Marketing for Nov in 2011 was more sensible.

He PLAYED: pieces of Cabinessence, existed on some mix tapes instrumental beginning, Who Ran the Iron Horse vocals included. straight into instrumental Grand Coolie Dam, into Over and Over the Crow Cries with vocals. MISSING – Multi-track, add vocals, dub those down, add more vocals. No more isolated lead vocal.  pieced together with Pro-tools. Early 1970s- Warner gave them advance money, with giving Smile released. Steve Desper was the engineer then Steve Moffitt. 

PLAYED: Vegetables- early take from TSS. (“On the Air!”) ending with laughter.  2 lead vocals at once
Number 6- Brian tryin to work out vegetables.
The BB kept their own tapes.
Insert 4 take 1…piano chord bop-bop

PLAYED: Veggies track- all put together 6 or 7 different segments put together
You’re Welcome is the only track not to have to be worked on.

Anyone involved in pop music in LA, in the past 20 years has a Smile bootleg
Technology in 1992 wasn’t able to do the box set from GV box Set.
Todd Rundgren put out the idea of putting all of it out and just putting their own mixes together.
Barnyard was intended for H&V. Discusses the demo of H&V/I;m in Great Shape/Barnyard
Barnyard Billy was to be part of I’m in Great Shape in H&V. In the Cantina replaces Barnyard.
Speaking with VDP: the Americana, Manafest Destiny, what whiteman did to the plains.
Alan would ask VDP: Over and Over. Why didn’t he answer Mike’s question?
A couple of newer pieces Smile have came up since the release of TSS.
Hardest track to put together: H&V (possibly), Vegetables (hardest to edit), Cabinessense was pain too.
No idea how the Cabinessence Telephone alternative lyrics would work.
Let Him Run Wild- Brian’s very sensitive about vocals.
In 71, couldn’t hit Colluminated Ruins Domino, but Carl could hit those vocals.
After 68, Carl would finish Brian’s work.
Tapes Conditions are in pretty good condition. Tapes from 60s are in great shape (70s/80s are not).
Took vocals from Fall Breaks to Mrs. Oleary’s Cow, fit perfectly.
Look vocals from Surf’s Up (71).

Alan also played the class his tribute to Carl Wilson which was shown at the CW walk before (I think) and at the Roxy theater. It's quite the tribute and has sorta outtake interviews from EH and some great snippets of vocals only mixes of Carl vocals, here's the notes I took during that:


Before you read this, I just wrote down who was talking and what song was being played.
Carl tribute video, shown at the Carl Walk: Cant wait too long vocals, started with European video in hotel from 68, The Trader vocals, Good Vibrations in Knebworth, GOK Live from 70s and 90s, Gerry Beckly, Tom Petty, Robert Lamm, Glen Campbell, Jerry Schilling, Carnie Wilson. California Feelin vocals (chorus), This Whole World track, Time to get Alone vocals only, Our Sweet Love track only, Steamboat, Darlin (live at Knebworth), Cameron Crowe on Feel Flows. Justyn Wilson. Jonah Wilson. Heaven is played over footage with family. KTSA, GOK vocals, Til I die vocals, Good Timin (track).

The credits have the KTSA outtake I'll always Love You (vocals only), Alan really wanted to put that in there. Carl's wife didn't really like the cut of the song.

Wow. Did he mention any titles?

No he did not unfortunately

Thanks much, Punkinhead, for supplying even more detail. Perhaps one day Alan will write a book about all this...it would certainly be right up at the top of the shelf in an ever-growing collection of top-notch books about the BB's.

Thanks for sharing, punkinhead!

no problem, i just wished something like this happened all the time so I could do little reports like these.

Thanks for the report(s), punkinhead! Reading it I felt excited and envious at the same time. Must have been a singular experience.


P.S. Never heard (of) "I'll Always Love You"... or is it on some bootleg and I just can't remember?

Sounds like a great class.

More pieces of SMiLE found? Drool!

Thanks for your report punkinhead!

And the Smile mystery goes on....  :3d

Sounds INCREDIBLE!

Thanks for the synopsis. I get the feeling a lot of material still remains unheard

First off, the whole "Mike says he lost a friend and cousin" during the SMiLE era, what did Alan mean by this? They wrote most of Wild Honey together, so their relationship must have been repaired. Can you expound upon this comment?


Any more info on this? Why weren't more acetate/test mixes put on TSS? Or were they? And about Dennis Wolfe, he seemed like he "got" what the project was about, reading his thing in the box set and seeing his interview. Are you saying he thought the stuff was really weird in a bad way? And what's this about about fading the songs? Like it was his idea not to really have the songs strung together in this one, unlike BWPS? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but explain more if you can.


So "Barnyard" was always just intended for "Heroes And Villains"? Does that mean once it was replaced by the cantina section, it was gone? That would poke a hole in the whole "Barnyard Suite" consisting of "I'm In Great Shape", "Barnyard", "The Old Master Painter", and "You Are My Sunshine".

And Barnyard Billy wasn't an off-the-cuff reference by Brian? Now that is interesting? Was this just an offhand comment by Alan? Did he explain this anymore? Would that mean there would have been more lyrics for "I'm In Great Shape"? And I'm still not sure this answers much about what the separate "I'm In Great Shape" track was supposed to be.


I have to imagine that if they are in any way revelatory, they will be on Made In California.


Very interesting. I mean, we kinda already knew this. Then again, there were many other great artists that needed help to complete their stuff, so I don't think that says anything bad about Brian at all.

But anyways, thanks so much for that report, punkinhead. Greatly appreciated.

This does not circulate. It's a Barry Mann written tune with a Carl vocal dating from the Keepin' The Summer Alive sessions. A few members of this board have heard and commented on it.

I've always found it interesting that a) there were lyrics supposed to be sung along the piano melody line in "Barnyard" and b) the guitar line has the same number of notes as the line "Barnyard Billy loves his chicken". Could be just coincidence, but it would work if that lyric was sung to the guitar line melody.


I'm sure it doesn't answer anything about that.

Nice one, Punkinhead!!! :)

Many thanks for this piece alone - "He PLAYED: pieces of Cabinessence, existed on some mix tapes instrumental beginning, Who Ran the Iron Horse vocals included. straight into instrumental Grand Coolie Dam, into Over and Over the Crow Cries with vocals. MISSING – Multi-track, add vocals, dub those down, add more vocals. No more isolated lead vocal.  pieced together with Pro-tools" - which might answer a few q's a few peeps had about the make-up of the version presented on TSS.

Their relationship may have been repaired, but Mike felt like Brian has never been the same person that he grew up with.

Thanks to everyone, it was a pleasure to take part in! And if it had happened anywhere else to anyone on here, I'd be jealous too.

This was my first time meeting hardcore fans who knew their stuff, I've never met anyone in person like that so it was a huge step for me as a fan.
One, to be able to verbally talk about the type of stuff no one else knows about as a typical fan and two, to meet someone "in the know" that can answer a lot of my questions, just like that! It was a dream come true.

Also, about the class, the prof had a slideshow set up for the rest of the semester on what to discuss and it was basically every album cover from Smile to BWPS, even solo stuff! I kinda wish I could be there for the later discussions. Also, Alan had given an external harddrive to the prof to play other goodies for the class, I drooled as he handed off to him, I have no idea what was on it.

During the Carl section, do you mean y'all heard a full (lead and backgrounds) vocals-only mix of "Time To Get Alone" and also "Til I Die"? If so, those had better be on that box set, hooboy!

This always happens, doesn't it? Didn't they find a mono mix of Trombone Dixie not long after the PS box was released? Not blaming Alan & Mark, just saying..... dammit  ;D

I wonder if they were from bootleggers suddenly seeing a copy of Smile in the shops and realising the jig was up?

I know it was just the lead vocal on Til I Die...TTGA on the other hand, i can't remember, I know it sounded really familiar to what I have heard (passed around here and there), so it was prolly all the vocals, not just his.

The Look vox are from SU '71? Hah!

Even if they are revelatory, I can't foresee new SMiLE stuff coming out on an official release.

Why wouldn't they release it? Even non-hardcore Beach Boys fans would be excited that another piece of unreleased SMiLE material has surfaced. And I'm sure Capitol wants to get people interested in the box set. So that would probably mean that they would love to use another piece of SMiLE stuff to convince people to buy the set.

Even if they are revelatory, I can't foresee new SMiLE stuff coming out on an official release.
[/quote]

Why not?..That would be a tremendously stupid thing to do, since they would likely sell at least one copy each of the "Made In California" box set to almost everyone who bought SMiLE.

IMHO, of course  :)

Why not?..That would be a tremendously stupid thing to do, since they would likely sell at least one copy each of the "Made In California" box set to almost everyone who bought SMiLE.

IMHO, of course  :)
[/quote]
true dat!

Not to me.  The Cantina section replaces the Barnyard section in "Heroes And Villains" when/so Brian moved/made it into it's own song ("I'm In Great Shape"/"The Barnyard Suite").  I honestly see nothing that pokes a hole in in that theory.  If anything, it just explains how and why those sections found their new home on the album, outside of Brian's original idea.

Opps.  I don't know what was going on there.  I guess I read the post above and got myself turned around.  I've never heard the above theory be seriously pursued.  My belief regarding the handwritten tracklist has always been:
"The Old Master Painter" = "The Old Master Painter (The Barnyard Suite)" = Barnyard/TOMP/YAMS/Barnshine fade
"I'm In Great Shape" = IIGS/I Wanna Be Around (Friday Night)/Workshop

As you were.....

Seems like there's always something found after a major release. A part or snippet or alternate/unreleased take or vocal/instrumental track on a song or two. Don't remember it happening on the Pet Sounds box where something was discovered after the fact - it's unfortunate timing but pretty much unavoidable I guess. At least they reviewed the Durrie Parks stuff and other rumored acetates and tapes and pretty much covered as much ground as they could. Sounds like Boyd and Linett really worked their asses off. A labor of love. But I gather Brian didn't give any feedback on their mixes one way or the other? Either during or after they were done? Is that true??

Too bad about the Wild Honey album. That's unfortunate. They were able to get all of Smiley right, but not Wild Honey. Damn! And the vocal tracks to Good Vibrations enabling a true stereo which remain MIA....

Brian put his FULL trust into Alan/Mark to make their mix and he put his stamp of approval on it.
Really, when Brian came down to hear some of it, he was more concerned about going out to Chinese for lunch  ;)   (CLASSIC BRIAN-ISM)

sdj, tr and ph:

There are many reasons I don't think it would come out.

One, there may be some clearance issues that would prevent a new SMiLE piece from coming out. This may be speculation, but it took a lot of navigation between the parties to get the box out. That may be too much to re-navigate for one or two tracks (and the resources used to navigate may no longer be there). Think about how long it took just to get these stereo re-releases out. The tunes, by all accounts, had been completed some time ago and the perfect time to re-release would've been on the 50th Ann, not a year later.

Two, what is revelatory to me and you may not be revelatory to Capitol/Brother Records, who has a finite number of releases on its schedule and wouldn't see one or two tracks as enough to move the needle on a new release. Think about how much "high demand" stuff is in the vaults collecting dust. I know I'd pay a pretty penny to see Live Again, California Feelin' and multiple others.

Three, it hasn't been said what was discovered or anything about its quality. It could be a small fragment, a different edit, etc. It could be in terrible quality and unreleasable. The likelihood of something being discovered from a missing tape seems less likely than the discovery of an old acetate or something like that.

Speaking of sources, was it confirmed that Alan/Mark reviewed the DP acetates and other rumored sources mentioned in Mikie's post? I'd guess there's stuff that wasn't since new stuff is being found.

I got inspired after hearing you describe Alan talking about Heroes having Barnyard and Great Shape so I decided to give it a try:
http://soundcloud.com/andrewhersh/heroes-and-villains-circa-1-67

Very nice, David Wrightfan !

I'd like to hear some of your other creations.  I will PM you.

Great attempt Wrightfan! I think you did a great job. The transitions were relatively seamless.

I do have a suggestion though. I personally think that an early "Heroes And Villains" would go as such:

• "I've been in this town..." up to the "dum dum dum" part in "Heroes And Villains: Early Outtake Sections"
• "I'm In Great Shape"
• "Heroes And Villains: Intro (Early Version)"....since at the beginning he calls it's "...part 3" leads me to believe it's part three, with part four being...
• "Barnyard", and since it has a fade, I'd assume that's the end of the song

I tried to do a version like this, but I am just not good at this. Perhaps somebody good at this stuff like you, WrightFan, would be able to make this sound cool. And since they kinda made "new" versions of things on other parts of the set, I think Mark and Alan shoulda maybe taken a chance and done a version with my proposed order. I feel there is definitely historical precedence for it.

One is most certainly speculation.  Respectfully, it's blind speculation, and not a reason for thinking that those things would not come out.  And the "navigation" would be the same as for other unreleased tracks.  It's not unique to Smile.

Two doesn't make sense because the record company surely is aware of the enormous amount of press the Smile release received.  That meant $ to them, and they're not so dense as to think they wouldn't get a few more $ with an additional release of Smile material.

Three is again just blind speculation.  And I thought the premise of your comment was that it would not come out even if revelatory.  Here you're arguing that it might not be revelatory.

Is there something in the thread suggesting stereo Wild Honey isn't on the new remasters agenda, or am I misinterpreting your post? Reading through the thread I can't find any reference to Wild Honey.

And thanks of course to Punkinhead for reporting back. Sounds like a fascinating lecture. New Smile pieces eh? I'd love to hear more about those.

I will try that idea.

I still think the part 3 works well for my mix though
1. I've been in this town
2. Doo-doo-doo-doo
3. Bells

Barnyard as the ending does seem to make sense though.

It's mentioned in the remaster thread, I think - essentially, a third of Wild Honey can't be mixed to 'true' stereo.

Alan found the finished Smile album masters from 1967..... ;D

Thanks Hypehat. So we'll be getting no complete stereo remaster of Wild Honey?  :'(

Alan Boyd is old.



































But Mike Love still fucks the young.  >:D

Hang on.  Lemme get my "Troll-B-Gone" spray.

How many troll kill marks you got on that bottle....

4 troll kill skeletons on the can so far, SB.   It's starting to run low.....

Hope the fluorocarbons from the spray can don't affect your breathing too much.

I assume it's not the end of the song, and I don't think it really fades. My asumption is after Barnyard there would have been the third verse (My children/At three score), and then OMP, Sunshine, fade.

Oh no, your mix definitely works well. And it definitely seems more like a journey than the official versions do. Which I guess is kinda what they were aiming for?

Going back to earlier on in the thread, I would LOVE to hear those Carl vocals, they HAVE to come out!

But Brian put the fade on Barnyard, right, so he must have intended it to be a fade at some point. I've always presumed it was initially the fade for Heroes & Villains. It works better as a fade than a transitional piece imo.

Well, here we are in the field of opinions, so my point of view is no better than yours. I disagree respectfully and do not like Barnyard as a fade. I agree it would have been not very easy to make a smooth transition from Barnyard the way it was recorded. Which may be a reason why it was dropped (assumption).

That "Brian put the fade on Barnyard" is IMHO an assumption, too, because he actually left Barnyard unfinished, and the version with the fade is just a test mix, so it doesn't mean it was supposed to be a fade. If he'd say "this is the fade" on the Humble Harv tape I'd agree, but he says "here's another section". But as I said, your opinion is as valid as mine.

I think barnyard was almost certainly the fade

I can't think of one other acetate that fades out unless it was obviously at the end of a song (pls correct me if I'm wrong here)

also you can't get out of barnyard unless you do a hard cut, and to what..?  I've never been able to match it up with anything that sounds right - keywise you can go into the fast 'my children' section but the rhythm is not right

actually it just hit me BY cut into C&W them has similar tempo, I might give that a try, however I think BY feels like a fade

ok I just tries the BY/C&W edit and it really works, the tempo and texture of the 2 is very similar - small snag though that we don't have clean vocals for my children do we so it would have to be severely bodged which is against my authentic song ethic

thats always the problem with H&V:  getting in and out of the sections + lead vox (unless your personal mix is pretty close to the single)

I tried something too. Edit out of Barnyard (http://www.michael-fredrich.de/BarnyardCUT.mp3)

I'm surprised myself it works in terms of speed.

My collage/card is up on my facebook (Justin Plank)...I took pictures of each page, let me know what you think. I'll try to post em on here if I can figure that out.

yeah that sounds great - try BY into C&W and see what you think  8)

I really like your transition but the actual ascending harmony part I'm not so keen on:  it does sound to me like it was written to bridge an awkward chord change..?

ok just got a great hard cut from BY to the fast 'my children' section:  you have to use one of the fan mixes of BY which puts the 'na na na' vox by Brian at the end and also has the french horn in there - the french really horn blends into the BVs on the 'my childen' section

it sounds fantastic and is a way out of BY  ::)

Dang, i really like that a lot.

Hey Justin,

Man, you were f_cking busy taking notes, young man...it's nice to see that spirit! Next time you're in town, I'll have some mixes for you @ the store. My wife said you already stopped in since AB's gig.
Jeff AKA Cal Muse

Interesting to see the comments above - and hear a couple of excellent fan mixes - of a hypothetical H&V version one!  There was a long discussion about this stuff in a thread I kicked off a few months back - and probably dozens before that one! Don't forget the first version (May '66) is believed to have also featured Your Are My Sunshine.

This has been asked, and probably would have been answered by now if it could be, but is there ANY suggestion of what newly discovered Smile pieces are? Seems remarkable they've been spoken about so legitimately but no actual info about what they entail has hit the wider sphere.

well in my current mix I am using 'who ran the iron horse'

this is not as whacky as it sounds:  I think that the H&V 'intro' section is very similar to WRTIH and does sound a bit 'train-like' with the whistles and all, and H&V had the train whistle in the Cantina mix, so I think there was a train vibe there

so in other words I am substituting 'intro' with WRTIH

whats good is that WRTIH fits chordally with bicycle rider so that can then be smoothly slipped in there - in fact the transition from WRTIH >> BR (and vice versa) is fantastic and very natural sounding

Why thank you Jeff, here's someone who believes me.

hi whats the point of this post..?  you shouldn't use fake quotations its malicious

can you give any examples of fades on acetates which were not tags..?  I'm not saying it never happened but I can't think of any

if you actually properly read my post about 'who ran the iron horse' you will see I have a very well thought out reason for adding it - however I am 100% certain this section was never ever considered for inclusion in 'Heroes...', its a compromise to try to make a version which sounds good and flows together - it fits musically and thematically and keeps the ethos of sections repeating in different songs

cheers

Sorry, that post was about something.
Examples? I was just quoting what alan said, I'm not particularly sure how to answer your question. I was just writing what he said, no specific examples were given.

hi punkinhead - I was referring to the post by 'runnersdialzero' not one by you

cheers
Mike

oh, ok....thanks.

So has anyone put together a "long" fan edit of H&V that seems to work?

well here's the one I currently have:

opening verses as usual into
verse just with scat BVs
dead stop with 11 note fanfare
fast my children
3 score and five
repeat verse just with scat BVs but should prob repeat the opening verse - no ideal but no other lyrics to use
stand or fall
a capella harmony break
slow my children/I've been in this town so long
bicycle rider to fade

pause then barnyard

then 'part 2' later on album mix which is cantina into with me tonjght

in all about 6 mins and works pretty well but compromised on the re-use of the scat verse after 3 score and 5

however I want to do a new one inc barnyard/iron horse/bicycle rider

cheers

My "Heroes And Villains" runs five and a half minutes.  And foolish as it may sound, I honestly think it's what Brian put together as his final "long" edit, before finally cutting it down to create the released single version.

As I've stated several times, it's the "intro" (which in 2004 he wound up using as part of "Mrs O'Leary's Cow"), the Cantina version without the "Barnshine" fade, and the single version, starting from the beginning of the first chorus. 

Granted it's not as "epic" as a lot of people's speculations or some of Brian's earlier experiments but I really believe that's where he was before finally bowing to pressure (real or imagined) to keep the single closer to a "normal" mid-60's length.

As always, your mileage may vary.  :)

teh heck? Legit? I've seen this done on literally every other board I've been to without warnings, probably because it's obvious that it's a joke and meant to be a good-natured means of poking fun at something someone has said. His original post is still there, after all.

I felt it was obvious that I was just kidding and meant no malice toward this kind fellow while also basically summing up what he was saying. The post basically insisting that "Barnyard" ended "Heroes" and that everyone who disagreed was totally wrong came off as a little odd/rude, that's all.

Brian had a system of naming his sections:

Part 1: The Verse
Part 2: The Chorus
Part 3: The Bridge
Part 4: The Fade

These were the the four basic components of any song in Brian's mind (and in most people's minds as well). No matter what he recorded it would be one of those four things and he used that general taxonomy all throughout the recording of Good Vibrations and Smile. It's important to realize though that he had no qualms about having multiple bridges and just because there are 4 categories doesn't mean the final song would only have 4 sections.

A typical song would be structured as:
Part 1 / Part 2 / Part 1 / Part 2 / Part 3 / Part 4

And Part 4, the fade, would usually be a straight reprise of the music from the chorus.

The original May 11th version of Heroes was probably structured in exactly that way. The April 9th and May 4th Good Vibrations sessions were complete takes of the backing track using the conventional verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/fade structure. It wasn't until the May 24th Sunset session for Good Vibrations that Brian started auditioning different bridges and choruses separately.

My Only Sunshine was most probably used as a bridge for the May 11th version of Heroes, and this is further supported by the fact that it precedes the fade in the November 14th recording of those two parts. The whole idea of a separate Barnyard 'suite' or what have you is totally bunk in my opinion. Brian simply decided during that period that he would record every section as a separate take to capitalize on the success he had using that method for Good Vibrations.

The Cantina section, Bag Of Tricks, Swedish Frog, all of those sections were only first recorded after January 1967 and I really don't believe that a 1966 version of Heroes would have used any of them. Brian only started recording new parts at the beginning of the new year once he realized that the Autumn 1966 material he had recorded was unsatisfactory, and that 'second' version of Heroes was probably:

1st Verse / I'm In Great Shape / 2nd Verse / Barnyard / You Are My Sunshine / Fade

Brian then auditioned several new sections on January 3rd and January 27th. The January 3rd session produced Do A Lot, Bag of Tricks, and a new Tag suggesting that You Are My Sunshine, and The Fade were both on the chopping block. The recording of 'pickup to 3rd verse' is also interesting, and perhaps Brian was intending to sequence the final song as:

1st Verse / I'm In Great Shape / 2nd Verse / Barnyard / 3rd Verse / Do A Lot / Bag of Tricks / Tag to Part 1

Brian likely recorded what he needed at that particular moment, he was making his own Smile mix but actually had the ability to record entirely new sections whenever the mood struck him. He didn't plan ahead or record with the long-term completion of the project in mind, he just ran to the studio to audition some new parts that he thought would strengthen the final song. When he actually sat down to edit the additional sections into the track, and still found himself unhappy with the result, he booked more studio time to audition other sections.

The January 27th Session yielded the Cantina section and a new bridge and the 'Alternate' version that was officially released on the Good Vibrations boxset is the track that resulted from all this recording, even after completing an acceptable single version however he remained unsatisfied and did still more recording at the end of February for a bevy of new Part 2s, 3s, and 4s.

I agree with Runners here, this seems a little rash. It's not like he was taking the altered quote out of this thread and into another with the ~malicious intent of defamation~ or anything. If you are reading the thread chronologically, you'd see mike's original post + from there it's pretty clear Runners' post is not personal, but a satirical way of making a point (as are most of his posts - yet people on this board have to have a hard time understanding that for some reason, even after three and a half thousand of them  :lol) Are we seriously discouraged from creative posts here? It seems like this policy is being enforced at the expense of some of the fun 'round here  ??? ??? ???

completely agree with runners and Quzi that I don't see a problem with that at all and it's a common thing that happens on forums and most people should have understood exactly what was going on.

ok it was me he did it too and I was highly annoyed by it:  it was faking what I'd said

because he had quoted me I almost didn't bother to read it all - as I knew what I'd said - so I could have carried one without realising my words had been changed

and he's at it again by misrepresenting what I said:  'The post basically insisting that "Barnyard" ended "Heroes" and that everyone who disagreed was totally wrong came off as a little odd/rude, that's all.'

I don't think my post has that kind of tone at all - here it is:


'I think barnyard was almost certainly the fade

I can't think of one other acetate that fades out unless it was obviously at the end of a song (pls correct me if I'm wrong here)

also you can't get out of barnyard unless you do a hard cut, and to what..?  I've never been able to match it up with anything that sounds right - keywise you can go into the fast 'my children' section but the rhythm is not right

actually it just hit me BY cut into C&W them has similar tempo, I might give that a try, however I think BY feels like a fade'

Sorry RDZ but I'm with Mike S and the mods on this one. I took the quote at face value initially and wondered what Mike S's problem was, whereas in reality he was just stating an opinion. Whether intended as a joke or otherwise, the last thing we need here is free reign to misquote each other.

My apologies, and I won't misquote you like that again. It was not meant to annoy you nor was there ever anything close to malicious intent. If we're good now (hope so, sincerely), let's get back to Mr.Boyd's lecture and the interesting shtuff he talked about.

Sorry again.

yeah no worries mate

I was wrong about BY not cutting well into the fast 'my children' section as with a bit of fiddling I subsequently managed to do it  :smokin

I might have sounded a bit harsh, runnersdialzero. Not trying to play the big boss here, although I realise it came across like that.  Currently I see things happening on this board that should get more attention than this (especially the plain rude and offending replies as of lately). So let me soften my words as well and say that in the future please be reserved with altering quotations. And if you decide to alter quotations, please take into account that it can be interpreted otherwise. Just add a smiley or something, so any misunderstanding is out of the question.

I completely understood that your intention was to make a joke about it. And as long as it’s an obvious joke, that’s okay by me. But I’ve seen this happen in the past (not just from you). Problem is that it can also be interpreted as being a genuine quote from someone that isn’t even aware of it. And if I get notified that the original poster is not happy about it, then I have to draw a line there.

Okay, back to the topic.   :)

OK, back on topic.


I'm convinced it will work without even trying it. My fan edit of "Wonderful" uses C&W or, as it is rather named, "Prelude to fade", as an outro, and even that works.

I think C&W/Prelude to fade was designed to replace OMP/MOS, since both originally ended with descending strings, and OMP/MOS is followed by the fade.


At first I tried "pickup to 3rd verse", because I think the third verse would have been after Barnyard, but the tempo didn't match. Then I tried "Bridge To Indians" which is the same but slower, about the speed of "Barnyard". That probably was designed to resolve into the BR section cut from Worms.


Unfortunately I don't know what fan mix you are referring to. Can I hear that somewhere?


I do have a 4:27 mix of H&V that totally satisfies me, but contains neither IIGS, BY, C&W, nor TOMP... I have two mixes I made with IIGS, BY, and TOMP, but neither of them is good. Heck, even Brian Wilson couldn't do that! :-D

hi Micha drop me your email address and I'll send you something - I'd love to hear your heroes mix :)

mjstwo@yahoo.com

Very interesting. In my theory there is another definition of "Part 2" which is the same as "side 2" but it would exist separately from your definition of Part 2 on another side from the single's A side which would have its own master and master number. Each master/master number would have its own Part 2 within that master as per your post. I think your definition is probably very insightful, I don't remember anyone proposing this definition of terms before. I hope we get some back and forth on your idea.

I have a ten minute one i have called The Whole Shooting Match which has almost all of it in. It works for me. Am sure purists would nail me to a cross for it being so crudely done.

Well I imagine Brian just needed some basic convention to make the editing process manageable at all. I've never done that type of tape editing before, but in Brian's case it must have been a real nightmare. It would have been easy for him to record things one day and not even remember what they were supposed to be for a week later. Dividing the songs into their basic elements, verse, chorus, bridge, fade, was just a simple, intuitive way to slate things so that they could be located easily during the editing process.

The first few Smile sessions were all complete takes of a single song, the first Wind Chimes session, the sessions for Look, Holidays, Wonderful etc. At the October 3rd Cabinessence session though Brian started recording the different sections of each song in different takes.

Listen to the sessions on the Smile box for Do You Like Worms?. Everything is slated in exactly the way I described in my previous post. The Bicycle Rider chorus is slated as "Part 2", the slide guitar section is slated as "Part 3", and the tag is slated as "Part 4".

"The Elements" is recorded in 2 parts. This is a fact that a lot of fans have never really picked up on. "The Elements: Part 1" is not the actual name of the song, what's being recorded in that particular take is just slated as "Part 1", the ending part, the part where Brian talks about the drums "putting out" or "blowing out" the basses is actually recorded in a separate take from the rest of the song, "Part 2".

I think there may have been a 'long' version of Heroes, maybe even a two-sided single, but I think the "Part 1/2/3/4" method of labelling is all over The Smile Sessions boxset and we've sort of ignored the fact that he slated things as "Part 3" and "Part 4" and just focused on the "Part 2" idea.

some great ideas there

thing is though The Elements was stated at the time to be a 4 part suite - maybe it was Cow + Vegatables + Wind Chimes + something else, or maybe it was Cow + 3 other abstract pieces..?

I used to really obsess over The Elements but these days more interested in al cuts of H&V as at least we have a lot of the parts to play with


'"The Elements" is recorded in 2 parts. This is a fact that a lot of fans have never really picked up on. "The Elements: Part 1" is not the actual name of the song, what's being recorded in that particular take is just slated as "Part 1", the ending part, the part where Brian talks about the drums "putting out" or "blowing out" the basses is actually recorded in a separate take from the rest of the song, "Part 2".

The whole idea of The Elements "suite" just feels wrong to me. Through the years fans have been really dead set on its' existence, but personally I'm kind of sick of fanmixes that try and shoehorn in anything and everything as being the missing parts. Firstly, a single song called "The Elements" containing a continuous medley of four sections each representing fire, earth, air and water seems really out of character.

The average track lengths on the three Beach Boys albums released in 1966 and 1967 are:

Pet Sounds - 2:46
Smiley Smile - 3:00
Wild Honey - 2:37

The longest song released during this timeframe is Heroes and Villains (3:37), the second longest is Good Vibrations (3:36). It just wasn't really like Brian to put out sprawling, extended length tracks. I mean, Airplane is the longest track on BB Love You at 3:05! "Fire" by itself is already over 90 seconds long, and it's not like there aren't any examples of classic BW tracks under two minutes in length (Wake The World, I Went To Sleep, This Whole World, Ding Dang...), so the idea that Brian would edit together some six minute long "Elements" prog suite as so many fans would have him do doesn't seem particularly likely.

When it comes to suites it's hard to figure out what anybody really means, several contiguous songs sharing a theme or mood? The B-side of Today? The entirety of Pet Sounds? I think a hard and fast, premeditated Elements "suite" is a little too insipid for Brian. He was never so literal in his sequencing of albums honestly. I've seen lots of fans try and dream up some continuous 'relationship' melodrama to fit around the Pet Sounds track sequence and in my opinion that type of thing never comes anywhere near being convincing. Brian wasn't a prog artist, and he wasn't deliberately trying to make concept albums, he sequenced his records with an ear more for tonality and musical development than for some linear progression of lyrical conceits.

The evidence for "The Elements" is just too spotty. There may be an Elements *theme* on many of the songs, just as there's a relationship *theme* on many Pet Sounds' tracks, but fanmixers have been too unselfconsciously literal about the whole thing in my mind. Vega-Tables = Earth is such a tenuous connection for example, I'm personally a little sick of seeing it asserted. Why not Do You Like Worms? Vega-Tables grow out of the ground, worms live in the ground, the logic behind either choice is exactly the same. Maybe Cabinessence is air, there's a crow, and crows fly around in the air right?

None of that stuff works.

[hug] No I totally agree, I've been arguing for a long time that Brian was highly organized and deliberate all during the SMiLE period because he was labeling every part as for what it was and where it went in which song as he recorded. I just never put together that the labels had a specific meaning to Brian that he applied from song to song. The organizational notes show me that Brian had a thought through structure for each revision for each song before he came to the studio and was far from flailing about producing fragments willie nillie and then trying to figure out a structure. For some time I've thought SMiLE wasn't quite as vague and mysterious as we like to make it out to be. Where Brian was at every given point with SMiLE/H&V can be much more knowable to us because of his structural notes if we pay attention to them. I see your insight as a step closer to knowing as much as we can from what is available.

Klingsor - some great insights. I've never really considered Old Master Painter/YAMS as part of Heroes beyond Al Kooper's anecdotal evidence (although I imagined he was describing a very early incarnation of OMP/Yams that was not necessarily the one we know). However you make a strong case for its integration into H&V. Your proposed Heroes incorporating YAMS certainly makes for a colourful track, much closer to the musical comedy Brian described at the time.

I'm still sure Brian was working on a two sided Heroes in early 67 though (not sure if you are arguing against that theory), although I think you're on the money that Part 1, part 2, part 3 etc. labelling usually refers to parts within 1 song. I just think that confusingly Brian described Side A & B of the long Heroes as Parts 1 & 2, as well as breaking the individual sides up into parts 1, 2, 3, 4 as per your theory.

Labelling evidence for a two sided H&V: Heroes Intro (the one that precedes Fire on BWPS) is clearly labelled as an intro but I seriously doubt it was intended as an A side intro. This was to be the intro to side B imo. Gee then usurps Heroes Intro as the intro to side B, as per Linnett and Boyd's Side B sequence. Edit: The dates don't work out for this last theory as Gee was recorded before Heroes Intro. I'd always assumed it was the other way around.

Also the labelling 'Tag to Part 1' suggests to me that this was intended as a fade to Side A at one point. Why would he have a tag to the first section of a song? However erratic Brian's labeling system was, that just makes no sense to me.

Also, all those major key variations on the bicyle rider theme are so repetitious I can't see how they would sit anywhere other than on a B side to the single.


We know from the handwritten list that Old Master Painter is its own track by December though right? This track could have been YAMS+OMP+Fade as per the Smile Sessions disc 1 edit, although there's nothing to say that other sections from H&V didn't migrate over to this track to create a Barnyard Suite? Where does the Barnyard Suite idea come from anyway? I'm not stuck on it, and I think you're right to be skeptical, but we don't know what Old Master Painter consisted of once it became its own track - For all we know, that may have been the final resting place of Barnyard.

hhi Klingsor  - 'The Elements' is mentioned quite a lot in contemporay 1966 press releases as a 4 part suite depicting the 4 elements

have you read LLVS..?  its all in there, its not a fan-generated idea

'You are my sunshine' as part of H%V:  its only speculation but I always assumed this was going to be in the style of the 'Cantina' fade ie upbeat and groovy

the only yardstick which is worth using is:  does it sound good :)

It floats my boat- it is really just an excuse to get all the bits I like in one big long sequence.  I listen to it b4 any of the other versions for that reason. And cos I farted about making it for ages after TSS came out. I can email you it if you want a listen, worst case you waste 10mb of hard disk on it and them send it to the recycle bin.

Buddhahat, those are all very agreeable observations, and just to clarify I do think that it's very likely that Brian toyed around with or at least considered an extended or double-sided Heroes at some point in the recording process. There is some tangible evidence for that I think, on TSS-box there is a track, "Early Heroes & Villains edit sequence", which is presumably an experimental "long" version of the song that Brian edited together.

I'm not proposing that we be really anal about these "Part 1/2/3/4" labels, Good Vibrations, as I pointed out earlier, incorporates multiple bridges (Part 3s) in its' released version. At the end of the day, if something sounded good to Brian's ears he went with it, regardless of whatever plans he may have originally had.

One thing I think you may be overlooking is the strong possibility that the December tracklist note is actually apocryphal. Isn't that AGD's opinion on the matter? Brian was shown the actual handwritten note at one point and explicitly disavowed it. Now, that doesn't tell us anything definite does it? I'm sure some fans would say, given Brian's history of selfcontradiction and historical distortion, but I don't think there's any irrefutable evidence that the tracklist is legitimate. I think we have to acknowledge that, though there's at least a possibility that it was dictated directly by Brian in 1966, it's also equally, if not more possible that it was written without his input or consent.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about "Tag to Part 1", you're being completely fair in raising that point. I do think it is possible though that it was recorded to actually replace the False Barnyard fadeout section, afterall didn't Brian eventually drop that anyway on the Smiley Smile version of Heroes? I want to stress my use of the word "audition" here, Brian recorded so many different sections because he was *auditioning* his various ideas. Like I said, he never hesitated in doing what was best for the song, if one section didn't work, he dropped it, if he liked how three bridges sounded one after another, the final version would have three bridges. When he went into record he probably asked himself where the song was lacking, did it need a more up-tempo chorus?, did it need a more relaxed bridge?
He recorded different variations and possibilities only, nothing was set in stone, he eventually gave himself so many possibilities though that choosing between them all became impossible.

To me it's very clear Brian did plan a two sided single at least as soon as early January and it very easy to track which recordings are for which of the two sides because there were two separate masters in development with separate master numbers. One was consistently labeled on AFM records and tape boxes as H&V and the other as H&V Part 2. The existing recordings for the Part 2 master are variations on non-H&V song sections from the SMiLE album. Tag to Part One is a recording for the master number of the H&V master that was not H&V Part 2.

I think "The Elements" was a possibility and wouldn't have been overly long. If you listen to "Diamond Head" - which times in at 3:40 - there are a couple/three different sections in that song.

Even if "Fire" was a minute and a half, and maybe "The Water Chant" was another minute, that still leaves you another minute and a half til you reach four minutes. And, don't forget, there were some longer songs on SMiLE such as "Cabinessence", "Surf's Up", and maybe even "Do You Like Worms". Just a thought. Hey, it's fun to discuss SMiLE again. It kind of got lost after the reunion started.

hi sure its mjstwo@yahoo.com - very interested to hear it and I'll send you mine even if it is now out of date and needs re-doing

there's a lot of speculation going on about The Elements so lets have a quick review of the facts:

1 - The Elements was described at the time as a 4 part suite depicting the 4 Elements

2 - according to Brian it was Van Dyke's idea

3 - 'Fire' was slated as: 'The Elements part 1 fire take 1' - this strongly indicates fire as the first part of a multi-part piece

4 - almost uniquely (apart from Wonderful I think) 'Fire' comes to a proper stop rather than fading - while this can't be taken as definite evidence it does support the idea that another track would have butt-edited onto it as a suite format

5 - despite the above point there is no 100% conclusive evidence for or against a 4 part suite, however just because there had never been one before doesn't mean this could not have been a first, 6 minutes long or whatever

6 - Vega-tables was linked to The Elements and may or may not have been a part of it or simply related

that's all I can think of so to summaries: reports from the time mention a 4 part suite

I'm still convinced that Fire was to be followed by I Wanna Be Around/Workshop as per Carol Kaye's claim. Aside from her recollection that these two pieces belonged together and that the sessions run one after the other (although don't have the dates to hand),  IWBA sounds perfect after Fire. The most brilliant switch in mood and tempo - they just feel like they fit, far more than Fire + The water chant imo. How this all fits in with The Elements I have no idea though.

Do you have an opinion where Water would go and what would you use?

I make suites a lot, I work with changing tempos, keys, styles... You guys know me! haha

I am almost positive it would've been

-Fire
-I Wanna Be Around
-Air (Piano instrumental, never recorded or at least found)
-Love To Say Dada

Some great evidence to support all of this as well...

Fire -> IWBA: Carol's claim, the sessions being back to back, more then enough evidence IMO
IWBA as the Earth piece: "Pick up the pieces" I assume that this is a metaphor for an earthquake, and plus, the ending of fire (recorded almost separately) sounds like an earthquake to me...
Air Piece: No idea, but I know it was planed based on Brian's interviews at the time, it's placement has to do with the Water Chant being a good link between the two.
LTSDD as Water: Well, besides the fact that SOMEONE had to come up with the CCW idea, I doubt this wasn't water, no proof it wasn't besides the title and the "air" like sound during the rests.

Now interestingly, this really does flow, I think you could even argue that Vegatables could fit, considering the workshop ending, but who knows? :P

No I just don't know how the elements fit into the above other than Fire as part 1. I wonder if Brian had the idea of Elements, recorded Fire and then got side tracked with I Wanna Be Around etc.

To be honest Friday Night sounds kind of watery to me, if it wasn't for the woodshop sounds. I'm not convinced that Dada was water at the time of its writing - I really think it's another song about fatherhood and babies etc. as there's the quote in the sessions book about him writing it with a baby bottle of chocolate milk on the piano, plus the baby speak in the title.

I think any attempt to figure out what the other elements were is futile. Unless a tape turns up with a contemporary Brian Wilson-assembled mix of the final song we will never know anything for certain.

You have to go where the evidence takes you and be able to separate your own feelings from the surviving facts. In that sense I have to at least acknowledge that 'The Elements' was a possibility, but at the same time I think that the evidence for it is far weaker than many would have it be. There are a few mentions of it as Mike S is eager to remind us, particularly in interviews with David Anderele and Michael Vosse. I'd encourage everyone to take notice of the fact though that in those same interviews The Elements is described as a miniature opera, telling a clear story. Of course neither of them are able to say what any of the other parts were or what that story actually was. If we have to take what they say on face value, then I think Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables are both automatically disqualified from being a part of The Elements as they don't fit the description of the song given in the very interviews that supposedly prove the track's existence.

On the session tapes for the early version of Dada Brian himself says that during the pauses there was going to be 'a lot of talking', so I'm not sure how strong the Dada=Water case can really be. And for that matter did Brian himself actually edit the water chant and Dada together at any point? The Desper video for Cool, Cool Water explains that he and Carl thought up that combination during the Sunflower sessions. And how does Child Is The Father of The Man fit in? On TSS box on sessions for both Dada and CCW Child Is The Father of The Man appears at the end of the song. Why? The reappearance of that specific riff, and the likelihood of 'Dada' being baby talk and the 'wha-wha' being a baby crying puts a major damper on the whole Dada=Water idea. And come to think of it, in TSS box liner notes Marilyn even remembers Brian drinking out of a bottle while writing songs. Taking all that into account, there's actually more supporting evidence I think for Dada being linked to Child, Wonderful, and Surf's Up than for it being part of The Elements.

hi klingsor - I have to disagree:  the evidence for 'The Elements' as a multi part (most likely 4) piece is very strong:

1 - described at the time
2 - part 1 called out as 'fire'
3 - Vega-tables linked to the Elements in the booklet
4 - 'air' and 'water' mentioned although no-one knows what they would have been

in fact its not just strong its flatly stated

anything else you come up with is guesswork:  yeah the idea might have been scrapped but then again it might not

Vosse and Andrle beng unable to recall the parts means nothing - its possible they were written never recorded

I think its quite likely that the Hal Blaine Veg skit and the water 'fishy fishy' chant - of which a run through of a similar idea was described at the time as a 'vocal Atlantis' - would have been earth and water as conceptually they fit the bill, but I wouldn't try to argue for it as its very circumstantial evidence

oh yeah and Elements is also on the track list on the back cover slick - this has been gone into in great detail in the past and established that the chances of Brian not signing off that list are extremely remote

By whom? I don't have LLVS so you're going to have to be more specific. Some sources are more meaningful than others, an explicit description of The 4-Part Elements Suite by Brian Wilson in a contemporary interview is one thing, but the Vosse interview I already mentioned is another entirely. It really amounts to little more than hearsay.


You're just begging the question. See my earlier post (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14354.msg330131.html#msg330131)



Certainly not incontrovertible proof of anything. To begin with Frank Holmes was not privy to the whole picture that Brian and Van Dyke were working from, so I don't believe his art should override other any other contemporary source. But in the case of the 'link' you're describing, let's take a closer look at the booklet and see how it stands up.

Frank Holmes did the artwork, but did he actually design the layout of the booklet? I would suspect that the person who put "'My Vega-tables' The Elements" into the booklet was some copy editor who never heard any of the music or spoke to any of the project's creative partners directly. There are multiple errors in the booklet that undermine its' legitimacy as evidence of anything:

• "Two-step to lamps light" is actually "Two-step to lamplight"
• "Diamond necklace play the pawn" is actually "Diamond necklace played the pawn"
• "The rain of bullets eventually brought her down" is actually "The rain of the bullets that eventually brought her down"
• "Home on the range" is written as if it were the title of a song on Smile when on the back of the very sleeve which the booklet was meant to be included in, the song is correctly labelled as "Cabin Essence"

Whoever compiled the booklet was obviously working from incomplete or inaccurate information, you're assuming that the fact that "'My Vega-tables'" and "The Elements" are written near one another implies that the two are linked, but there's no clear logic in the booklet's layout and I think that overall it's very, very weak evidence.

In addition to all this, in this post (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14354.msg330549.html#msg330549) I question whether or not Vega-Tables could be part of The Elements at all based on the contemporary source I believe you've been citing. It was supposed to be a musical drama, a miniature opera that told a story according to what may be the sole account of the song as a 4-part conceptual suite that we have, but Vega-Tables doesn't fit that paradigm in any way shape or form. It's a clear contradiction of your evidence that casts a further shadow of doubt over the whole argument you've been attempting to make.


By whom? Like I said, I don't have LLVS. Brian never describes The Elements as a 4-part conceptual suite in any contemporary interview that I've read, Goodbye Surfing, Hello God never discusses it in those terms, and the interview that I believe you're referring to is a 1969 interview with Michael Vosse that took place some two years after the fact. He doesn't say anything explicit about it in fact, so it's entirely unclear what if anything he's actually remembering. Like I said in response to your first point, it's little more than hearsay. It is a (1) piece of evidence, but it's not good evidence, it's not Brian Wilson himself telling us that The Elements was a 4-part conceptual suite, it's not Van Dyke telling us that either, it's one of Brian's friends who had little direct involvement with either the composition or the recording of the project.

If you have better sources you'd like to share I'm all ears, I'm really not certain which interviews or press releases you're talking about so I'd be appreciative if you'd be a little less vague on this point.


I wouldn't exactly say that's 'likely', it's, as you put it, 'very circumstantial'.


A few points here:

• 1. I am not now, nor have I ever been contesting the mere existence of a track called "The Elements", what I am contesting is the existence of a track called "The Elements" that was a 4-part conceptual suite evoking the four classical astrological/alchemical elements. The handwritten tracklist memo lists a track called "The Elements" it does *not* list a track called "The Elements: Fire, Earth, Air, and Water". I addressed the memo already here (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14354.msg330368.html#msg330368), and in these (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14354.msg330131.html#msg330131) posts (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14354.msg330162.html#msg330162) was fairly explicit in the argument I was making, i.e. that "The Elements" may have only ever been "Fire"/"Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" and not the conceptual suite you're making it out to have been.

• 2. In various threads here we've discussed Brian's psychological problems fairly extensively. Many of Brian's issues fall into the Avoidant/Anxious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder#Cluster_C_.28anxious_or_fearful_disorders.29) part of the mental health spectrum, and if any of the members reading this are themselves afflicted by conditions in this category, I'm sure they can understand what it must have been like for Brian in 1966. At the time he was sinking tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in a business venture (Smile) that ran the risk of bankrupting The Beach Boys (and in fact did), he was struggling along two separate, sometimes contradictory fronts, for both commercial and critical success against his many, very competent contemporaries, he was still trying to overcome the influence of his tyrannical father as well as effectively mitigate the concerns of his vocally critical band-mates, and to top it all off, was also abusing amphetamines, hashish, and LSD and repressing adulterous feelings for his sister-in-law.
  
  The tracklist memo is, I believe, rightfully taken as spurious by many serious fans. The issue has been discussed in detail but the question has never been resolved and nothing has ever been 'established' by anyone really. Someone suffering with avoidant personality disorders does not always handle their business in a completely satisfactory manner. Brian may have been pressured into putting together some type of tracklist by Capitol executives/his management/his fellow band members, and in my opinion, if (and it's a big if) he actually had anything to do with that memo, he probably did so unwillingly and procrastinated and avoided the problem to such a degree that Diane or Carl stepped in to do it for him. If he did sign off on it, it's not necessarily because he approved of anything on it, but may have been because he simply wanted to make the pressure and stress go away with as little conflict as possible.

Now, saying all that, I still concede that there is a *possibility* that The Elements was, at one time or another, a 4-part conceptual suite. But I think that my posts in this thread should be enough to seriously challenge the actual likelihood of it really being that. Yes, there is some evidence, I am in no way denying that, but it's weak evidence, hearsay, and speculation mostly that drives the continuing belief that so many fans have that The Elements was a full blown 4-part conceptual suite. A possibility yes, not a fact, not even a strong possibility, just a glimmer of a chance and nothing more.

You're making a definitive, unequivocal statement here: care to support it with proof ? Plus, the session isn't logged as part 1, part 2 or part 2580 - it's logged as "The Elements (Fire)". You've also been rather selective in reporting how the track was slated by the engineer: what he actually says is "OK, The Elements, ah, part one, Fire, take one", The addition of that single word "Fire" changes the context and meaning entirely.

Nonetheless, that's exactly how VDP described it as to me when I asked him about Smile in general some years ago. In response to my asking about segues/crossfades between tracks, he stated that there were never intended to be any, except within one track, and that that track was "The Elements". That he volunteered this information essentially unprompted, and in reply to an almost completely different question (he could have just as easily said "no": actually, it being Van Dyke, no, he wouldn't, but you get my drift) strikes me as significant.  I think he'd know.

Very interesting AGD, thanks for sharing that information. I agree with you that Van Dyke would certainly be the ultimate or penultimate authority here, but I'm wondering if you can expand a little as to what you mean by 'segue' and 'crossfade'. Doesn't Heroes and Villains have multiple segues in the form of linking elements like "Bridge to Indians", "Pickup to 3rd verse", and "Soul Made Beautiful"? And with regards to crossfading, Fire doesn't end with a fade so how would crossfading be possible there?

I do think that's an entirely factual assertion, there are two separate parts recorded in two separate takes edited together on the final track. The 'tag', the "blowing out" ending part is recorded as a separate take, specifically takes 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, and 18 as can be heard on Unsurpassed Masters 17, and also on TSS box.

My only point is that according to the paradigm Brian had been using in calling things "Part 1/2/3/4", "The Elements: Part 1" does not necessarily correspond to the entirety of what we know as "Fire", but could refer to the section recorded in takes 1-7 with "Part 2" naturally being the section recorded in takes 15-18.

There is a convention in the booklet, Elements is shown as a title and Vega-tables is shown as a lyric of Elements.

I'm not sure why all the scepticism about the List. The titles shown are only titles Brian recorded. Brian as Producer had the obligation of approving that list. Brian did not go along to avoid, he just said no and did what he wanted to do or did not do what he did not want to do and avoided all together.  Imo opinion he demonstrated that he did not go along or do things just to please Capitol or whoever. If he was not ready or the product was not ready he just let Capitol wait.

Agreed... but that's "Fire", not the whole "Elements", as evidenced by the engineer (as previously stated) and the AFM sheet.  I have this unfortunate propensity for using words to convey their exact meaning, not applying the title for a part to the whole, for example.  ;D


Surely: a common theory at the time was that, as per Pepper, Smile would have been essentially bandless with individual songs crossfading/segueing into each other. The double album notion was also prevalent, so I asked him about that, and his response was, concisely, that Smile was to be a single album with banded tracks, no crossfades or segues between them but that one track would have such internal transitions, and he named it as "The Elements". As for "Fire" having a definite end, well, isn't it obvious ? It's the last section of the 'suite'.  :) The only source for it being followed by anything at all is, to be charitable, of questionable integrity where strict historical accuracy is concerned.

Now that's some pernicious logic! I feel like you should be a lawyer AGD.  :lol

True... but it is still logic.  :deadhorse

hi Klingsor - I'd have to dig through LLVS and I don't have time at the mo but I'm sure other old hands can verify what I'm saying - this has all been hashed out years ago

I'm working just on facts - speculation is fine as it can lead to interesting stuff but the 2 approaches should not be confused

hi Andrew I think we're on the same page apart from this:  'As for "Fire" having a definite end, well, isn't it obvious ? It's the last section of the 'suite'. '

I think the hard ending of 'fire' makes it much more likely to not be the last part - I think another piece would have followed straight after it - as far as I'm aware Brian never ended songs any way other than fading - sections within songs had hard endings, sure...

hang on is 'klingsor' actually 'fishmonk..?

slightly confused..?

I could say that I am actually Dr. Primrose, but that would only further muddy the increasingly opaque waters, not to mention being cruel and heartless.

Have we seen images of the Fire tapebox? My memory is the ending on Fire isn't a second part but an insert to correct the ending of "part 1", is that wrong? Maybe I should listen first? Nah.

Yes, that's basically it...on the tapebox, the title is written as "The Elements - Part One (Fire)".  As I wrote in the box set's sessionography, the "Master is edit of Takes 2 & 9 & Take 18 (Pickup)".  Take 18 was the ending, recorded as an edit piece which was then spliced onto the master, which was itself an edit of Takes 2 & 9.  Nothing on the tape box was labeled as Part Two.  Interestingly, there was another session for something labled as "Part One" (according to the AFM contract), on Jan. 23rd, but that APPEARS to have been a sting & woodwind overdub session for a new, missing version of  "Surf's Up" (as the contract is notated "Sweetening")...BUT you just never know.  ;)  Carol Kaye (I know, I know...) has recalled that Brian intended "Fire" to be followed by "I Wanna Be Around (To Pick Up The Pieces"), as that implies rebuilding after a fire.   My theory is that Brian originally intended "Fire" to be the first of a four-part "Elements" Suite, but soon after recording it, he either lost interest or began shuffling the playing order in his mind, so that "Fire" wouldn't necessarily have been Part One of the Suite a month later, or the following spring (assuming he would've even still included it at all by then).  See, SMiLE was an ever-evolving project to Brian, so to my way of thinking, there's not much point in speculating, or obsessing, on what the "difinitive" track lineup would have been, as there never was a "fixed" lineup at any given point, just a lot of ever-changing possibilities.

 

Yes. I wanted to say the same thing.

I think, given the ambiguity regarding an Elements Suite in the Sixties, that given the evolution of Smile into a percformance piece in 2003, that in this case, Brian's judgement in that time will be the decision that will have to be considered final. That is not to say it would have been that way in the Sixties, but the way things turned out in 2003 will be the way it will be defined for future performance purposes. Sadly, I happen to agree with Craig, in that Brian lost focus back in the Sixties in the flux of the demand for a finished single and lp.

Read through the elements sections of LLVS, talks a lot about Friday Night being a part of LTSDD, maybe even a link between Fire -> IWBA ->LTSDD ?

I did a Humble Harv type mix of H&V - it follows the form of the Cantina mix up until Cantina and then goes to IIGS - BY - OMP - YAMS - False Barnyard fade.  IT works quite well.

My H&V fan mix that satisfies me:

http://www.michael-fredrich.de/HeroesAndVillainsMicha.mp3


There's a few on Summer Days: Girl Don't Tell Me and the last three on side two.


I absolutely agree. There's still people who think that somewhere in the vast amount of sessions "THE SMiLE" as Brian "originally envisioned" lies hidden. There is no such a thing.

And regardless whether Brian had input to the handwritten list or not: the fact that OMP had been put in brackets which then have been crossed out IMHO is proof that at the very time it was written the lineup was still being thought about. "(counts) That's eleven songs now... What will I write as twelth track? (thinks) I'll write OMP. (writes it down) Or should I? (Puts brackets around OMP) Oh well, what the heck. (crosses out brackets)."

All you can do is compile the SMiLE you like best. If you're into "historical accuracy" and want to use the cantina version, you'll have to use the Rock Me Henry version of Wonderful, as they were worked on about the same time. And who would want THAT?

No, I think defining an historically accurate track list will have anyone going around in circles, but I do think it's fascinating focusing on tracks and trying to pick out little threads and ideas that Brian was having at specific times during the sessions.

That's why Carol Kaye's recollection about Fire is so interesting - put Fire next to IWBA/FN and you have a fully functioning (and rather brilliant) Smile track. You don't even need any editing techniques to put those two together - just reprogram the cd player! I appreciate it all hangs on the veracity of Kaye's claim here, but really - there are not two other sections (aside from maybe parts of H&V) that fit together in a more satisfying, humorous and narrative way than Fire + IWBA + Workshop imo. And it's really musical too. That change in tempo: The lazy swing of IWBA that sounds like the last embers dying down. It amazes me that so many people reject it. Talk about wood and trees! It's instant Elements, or the closest thing we have to a finished Elements track, and the evidence to back it up is pretty good as far as I'm concerned - far, far stronger than the idea that Fire would've been followed by water. I find that sequencing decision rather predictable and flat in comparison although I can't really argue with the guys that chose to do it that way!

So is this thread closed now? Pity, it was pretty interesting.

Yeah, agreed. Maybe it's worth having a rolling smile discussion thread ...

My latest self-rolled SMiLE (my 5th) happened to not include any IWBA/Woodshop nor Sleep A Lot. Guess I'll go back to version 4...

http://smileysmile.wikkii.com/wiki/Heroes_and_Villains/Sessions

what does that asterisk mean after Brian Wilson?

I was going to put a key with crosses and asterisks and stuff with some information, *=lead vocal for example. Haven't gotten around to it, I just wanted to share that page here because it's a more useful sessionography than what's in the book. Not because the information is new, but just because it's in table form and easier to scan.

Seeing it like that is interesting, especially because it's easier to compare master numbers. what do you guys think of Brian's master numbers? 57020 seems to represent work done on the Cantina version. I think the 57020 period corresponds to Brian's absolute creative zenith and his failure there in assembling a mix that satisfied him was sort of the core disappointed of his life, the one that all his misfortunes seemed to converge upon, and the one that reverberated throughout the rest of his life affecting everything thereafter. All his sorrows collapse upon that single point like a thousand instruments reduced into nothingness on a Phil Spector record. That was his moment, it's like it's all right there, everything he ever was, a microcosm of the entirety of his mind and self.

I think it was just another stage of a single which he wasn't satisfied with and he merrily plowed on until he got the stage he was satisfied with just as he had done with GV.

I doubt "merrily".

Presumably "merrily" enough to pile everbody into cars to deliver it to KHJ immediately [I guess we settled KHJ?].

I think the master numbers [and eye witnesses] show in early March Brian had a version of the H&V single side 1 [Master # 57020] he was happy with at mo' and a master for the H&V single side 2 [Master #57045] which he had been working on [and off] since January which was far-along/finished and as far as we know was coincidently samples of themes from the other SMiLE album tracks: DYLW, Fire, OMP...and....has something else been identified for that 57045 master number?

All this research about Smile for the PSS project is leading me to believe that "Holidays" is actually part of the Elements, as is Vega-Tables.

Now, when answering the question about "How can Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables be listed on the back if they're part of the elements.

(This next part may make people go "oh whatever" but think about it.
Strangely, I'm working on a suite now, and I have a track in the middle that i think is single worthy, and I'm scarred that if I take it out,
the suite gets dumbed down, but if I don't, it gets lost in the mix. Easiest solution? Include it on the sleeve separate from the suite, but
still listed as part of it ("Read label for track listing")


Eh?

Interesting theory on the Vega-Tables seperate listing from The Elements, but you're wrong about one thing: They were not "listed on the back", because the SMiLE album was not finished. They were listed on a dummy for the back based on a cobbled together track list of uncertain origin.

I do agree that Holidays would work well as part of The Elements, to me as earth rather than air. But as the BWPS lyrics to it seem to be mostly from 1966, it is unlikely that Holidays was conceived as part of The Elements. Of course, it found its place in the elemental suite on BWPS! :)