Alan Boyd Lecture

[davywheatdyke]

So has anyone put together a "long" fan edit of H&V that seems to work?

I have a ten minute one i have called The Whole Shooting Match which has almost all of it in. It works for me. Am sure purists would nail me to a cross for it being so crudely done.

[Dunderhead]

Very interesting. In my theory there is another definition of "Part 2" which is the same as "side 2" but it would exist separately from your definition of Part 2 on another side from the single's A side which would have its own master and master number. Each master/master number would have its own Part 2 within that master as per your post. I think your definition is probably very insightful, I don't remember anyone proposing this definition of terms before. I hope we get some back and forth on your idea.

Well I imagine Brian just needed some basic convention to make the editing process manageable at all. I've never done that type of tape editing before, but in Brian's case it must have been a real nightmare. It would have been easy for him to record things one day and not even remember what they were supposed to be for a week later. Dividing the songs into their basic elements, verse, chorus, bridge, fade, was just a simple, intuitive way to slate things so that they could be located easily during the editing process.

The first few Smile sessions were all complete takes of a single song, the first Wind Chimes session, the sessions for Look, Holidays, Wonderful etc. At the October 3rd Cabinessence session though Brian started recording the different sections of each song in different takes.

Listen to the sessions on the Smile box for Do You Like Worms?. Everything is slated in exactly the way I described in my previous post. The Bicycle Rider chorus is slated as "Part 2", the slide guitar section is slated as "Part 3", and the tag is slated as "Part 4".

"The Elements" is recorded in 2 parts. This is a fact that a lot of fans have never really picked up on. "The Elements: Part 1" is not the actual name of the song, what's being recorded in that particular take is just slated as "Part 1", the ending part, the part where Brian talks about the drums "putting out" or "blowing out" the basses is actually recorded in a separate take from the rest of the song, "Part 2".

I think there may have been a 'long' version of Heroes, maybe even a two-sided single, but I think the "Part 1/2/3/4" method of labelling is all over The Smile Sessions boxset and we've sort of ignored the fact that he slated things as "Part 3" and "Part 4" and just focused on the "Part 2" idea.

[mike s]

some great ideas there

thing is though The Elements was stated at the time to be a 4 part suite - maybe it was Cow + Vegatables + Wind Chimes + something else, or maybe it was Cow + 3 other abstract pieces..?

I used to really obsess over The Elements but these days more interested in al cuts of H&V as at least we have a lot of the parts to play with


'"The Elements" is recorded in 2 parts. This is a fact that a lot of fans have never really picked up on. "The Elements: Part 1" is not the actual name of the song, what's being recorded in that particular take is just slated as "Part 1", the ending part, the part where Brian talks about the drums "putting out" or "blowing out" the basses is actually recorded in a separate take from the rest of the song, "Part 2".

[Dunderhead]

The whole idea of The Elements "suite" just feels wrong to me. Through the years fans have been really dead set on its' existence, but personally I'm kind of sick of fanmixes that try and shoehorn in anything and everything as being the missing parts. Firstly, a single song called "The Elements" containing a continuous medley of four sections each representing fire, earth, air and water seems really out of character.

The average track lengths on the three Beach Boys albums released in 1966 and 1967 are:

Pet Sounds - 2:46
Smiley Smile - 3:00
Wild Honey - 2:37

The longest song released during this timeframe is Heroes and Villains (3:37), the second longest is Good Vibrations (3:36). It just wasn't really like Brian to put out sprawling, extended length tracks. I mean, Airplane is the longest track on BB Love You at 3:05! "Fire" by itself is already over 90 seconds long, and it's not like there aren't any examples of classic BW tracks under two minutes in length (Wake The World, I Went To Sleep, This Whole World, Ding Dang...), so the idea that Brian would edit together some six minute long "Elements" prog suite as so many fans would have him do doesn't seem particularly likely.

When it comes to suites it's hard to figure out what anybody really means, several contiguous songs sharing a theme or mood? The B-side of Today? The entirety of Pet Sounds? I think a hard and fast, premeditated Elements "suite" is a little too insipid for Brian. He was never so literal in his sequencing of albums honestly. I've seen lots of fans try and dream up some continuous 'relationship' melodrama to fit around the Pet Sounds track sequence and in my opinion that type of thing never comes anywhere near being convincing. Brian wasn't a prog artist, and he wasn't deliberately trying to make concept albums, he sequenced his records with an ear more for tonality and musical development than for some linear progression of lyrical conceits.

The evidence for "The Elements" is just too spotty. There may be an Elements *theme* on many of the songs, just as there's a relationship *theme* on many Pet Sounds' tracks, but fanmixers have been too unselfconsciously literal about the whole thing in my mind. Vega-Tables = Earth is such a tenuous connection for example, I'm personally a little sick of seeing it asserted. Why not Do You Like Worms? Vega-Tables grow out of the ground, worms live in the ground, the logic behind either choice is exactly the same. Maybe Cabinessence is air, there's a crow, and crows fly around in the air right?

None of that stuff works.

[Cam Mott]

Very interesting. In my theory there is another definition of "Part 2" which is the same as "side 2" but it would exist separately from your definition of Part 2 on another side from the single's A side which would have its own master and master number. Each master/master number would have its own Part 2 within that master as per your post. I think your definition is probably very insightful, I don't remember anyone proposing this definition of terms before. I hope we get some back and forth on your idea.

Well I imagine Brian just needed some basic convention to make the editing process manageable at all. I've never done that type of tape editing before, but in Brian's case it must have been a real nightmare. It would have been easy for him to record things one day and not even remember what they were supposed to be for a week later. Dividing the songs into their basic elements, verse, chorus, bridge, fade, was just a simple, intuitive way to slate things so that they could be located easily during the editing process.

The first few Smile sessions were all complete takes of a single song, the first Wind Chimes session, the sessions for Look, Holidays, Wonderful etc. At the October 3rd Cabinessence session though Brian started recording the different sections of each song in different takes.

Listen to the sessions on the Smile box for Do You Like Worms?. Everything is slated in exactly the way I described in my previous post. The Bicycle Rider chorus is slated as "Part 2", the slide guitar section is slated as "Part 3", and the tag is slated as "Part 4".

"The Elements" is recorded in 2 parts. This is a fact that a lot of fans have never really picked up on. "The Elements: Part 1" is not the actual name of the song, what's being recorded in that particular take is just slated as "Part 1", the ending part, the part where Brian talks about the drums "putting out" or "blowing out" the basses is actually recorded in a separate take from the rest of the song, "Part 2".

I think there may have been a 'long' version of Heroes, maybe even a two-sided single, but I think the "Part 1/2/3/4" method of labelling is all over The Smile Sessions boxset and we've sort of ignored the fact that he slated things as "Part 3" and "Part 4" and just focused on the "Part 2" idea.

[hug] No I totally agree, I've been arguing for a long time that Brian was highly organized and deliberate all during the SMiLE period because he was labeling every part as for what it was and where it went in which song as he recorded. I just never put together that the labels had a specific meaning to Brian that he applied from song to song. The organizational notes show me that Brian had a thought through structure for each revision for each song before he came to the studio and was far from flailing about producing fragments willie nillie and then trying to figure out a structure. For some time I've thought SMiLE wasn't quite as vague and mysterious as we like to make it out to be. Where Brian was at every given point with SMiLE/H&V can be much more knowable to us because of his structural notes if we pay attention to them. I see your insight as a step closer to knowing as much as we can from what is available.

[buddhahat]

Klingsor - some great insights. I've never really considered Old Master Painter/YAMS as part of Heroes beyond Al Kooper's anecdotal evidence (although I imagined he was describing a very early incarnation of OMP/Yams that was not necessarily the one we know). However you make a strong case for its integration into H&V. Your proposed Heroes incorporating YAMS certainly makes for a colourful track, much closer to the musical comedy Brian described at the time.

I'm still sure Brian was working on a two sided Heroes in early 67 though (not sure if you are arguing against that theory), although I think you're on the money that Part 1, part 2, part 3 etc. labelling usually refers to parts within 1 song. I just think that confusingly Brian described Side A & B of the long Heroes as Parts 1 & 2, as well as breaking the individual sides up into parts 1, 2, 3, 4 as per your theory.

Labelling evidence for a two sided H&V: Heroes Intro (the one that precedes Fire on BWPS) is clearly labelled as an intro but I seriously doubt it was intended as an A side intro. This was to be the intro to side B imo. Gee then usurps Heroes Intro as the intro to side B, as per Linnett and Boyd's Side B sequence. Edit: The dates don't work out for this last theory as Gee was recorded before Heroes Intro. I'd always assumed it was the other way around.

Also the labelling 'Tag to Part 1' suggests to me that this was intended as a fade to Side A at one point. Why would he have a tag to the first section of a song? However erratic Brian's labeling system was, that just makes no sense to me.

Also, all those major key variations on the bicyle rider theme are so repetitious I can't see how they would sit anywhere other than on a B side to the single.

Brian then auditioned several new sections on January 3rd and January 27th. The January 3rd session produced Do A Lot, Bag of Tricks, and a new Tag suggesting that You Are My Sunshine, and The Fade were both on the chopping block.

We know from the handwritten list that Old Master Painter is its own track by December though right? This track could have been YAMS+OMP+Fade as per the Smile Sessions disc 1 edit, although there's nothing to say that other sections from H&V didn't migrate over to this track to create a Barnyard Suite? Where does the Barnyard Suite idea come from anyway? I'm not stuck on it, and I think you're right to be skeptical, but we don't know what Old Master Painter consisted of once it became its own track - For all we know, that may have been the final resting place of Barnyard.

[mike s]

hhi Klingsor  - 'The Elements' is mentioned quite a lot in contemporay 1966 press releases as a 4 part suite depicting the 4 elements

have you read LLVS..?  its all in there, its not a fan-generated idea

[mike s]

'You are my sunshine' as part of H%V:  its only speculation but I always assumed this was going to be in the style of the 'Cantina' fade ie upbeat and groovy

[mike s]

the only yardstick which is worth using is:  does it sound good

So has anyone put together a "long" fan edit of H&V that seems to work?

I have a ten minute one i have called The Whole Shooting Match which has almost all of it in. It works for me. Am sure purists would nail me to a cross for it being so crudely done.

[davywheatdyke]

It floats my boat- it is really just an excuse to get all the bits I like in one big long sequence.  I listen to it b4 any of the other versions for that reason. And cos I farted about making it for ages after TSS came out. I can email you it if you want a listen, worst case you waste 10mb of hard disk on it and them send it to the recycle bin.

[Dunderhead]

Klingsor - some great insights. I've never really considered Old Master Painter/YAMS as part of Heroes beyond Al Kooper's anecdotal evidence (although I imagined he was describing a very early incarnation of OMP/Yams that was not necessarily the one we know). However you make a strong case for its integration into H&V. Your proposed Heroes incorporating YAMS certainly makes for a colourful track, much closer to the musical comedy Brian described at the time.

I'm still sure Brian was working on a two sided Heroes in early 67 though (not sure if you are arguing against that theory), although I think you're on the money that Part 1, part 2, part 3 etc. labelling usually refers to parts within 1 song. I just think that confusingly Brian described Side A & B of the long Heroes as Parts 1 & 2, as well as breaking the individual sides up into parts 1, 2, 3, 4 as per your theory.

Labelling evidence for a two sided H&V: Heroes Intro (the one that precedes Fire on BWPS) is clearly labelled as an intro but I seriously doubt it was intended as an A side intro. This was to be the intro to side B imo. Gee then usurps Heroes Intro as the intro to side B, as per Linnett and Boyd's Side B sequence. Edit: The dates don't work out for this last theory as Gee was recorded before Heroes Intro. I'd always assumed it was the other way around.

Also the labelling 'Tag to Part 1' suggests to me that this was intended as a fade to Side A at one point. Why would he have a tag to the first section of a song? However erratic Brian's labeling system was, that just makes no sense to me.

Also, all those major key variations on the bicyle rider theme are so repetitious I can't see how they would sit anywhere other than on a B side to the single.

Brian then auditioned several new sections on January 3rd and January 27th. The January 3rd session produced Do A Lot, Bag of Tricks, and a new Tag suggesting that You Are My Sunshine, and The Fade were both on the chopping block.

We know from the handwritten list that Old Master Painter is its own track by December though right? This track could have been YAMS+OMP+Fade as per the Smile Sessions disc 1 edit, although there's nothing to say that other sections from H&V didn't migrate over to this track to create a Barnyard Suite? Where does the Barnyard Suite idea come from anyway? I'm not stuck on it, and I think you're right to be skeptical, but we don't know what Old Master Painter consisted of once it became its own track - For all we know, that may have been the final resting place of Barnyard.

Buddhahat, those are all very agreeable observations, and just to clarify I do think that it's very likely that Brian toyed around with or at least considered an extended or double-sided Heroes at some point in the recording process. There is some tangible evidence for that I think, on TSS-box there is a track, "Early Heroes & Villains edit sequence", which is presumably an experimental "long" version of the song that Brian edited together.

I'm not proposing that we be really anal about these "Part 1/2/3/4" labels, Good Vibrations, as I pointed out earlier, incorporates multiple bridges (Part 3s) in its' released version. At the end of the day, if something sounded good to Brian's ears he went with it, regardless of whatever plans he may have originally had.

One thing I think you may be overlooking is the strong possibility that the December tracklist note is actually apocryphal. Isn't that AGD's opinion on the matter? Brian was shown the actual handwritten note at one point and explicitly disavowed it. Now, that doesn't tell us anything definite does it? I'm sure some fans would say, given Brian's history of selfcontradiction and historical distortion, but I don't think there's any irrefutable evidence that the tracklist is legitimate. I think we have to acknowledge that, though there's at least a possibility that it was dictated directly by Brian in 1966, it's also equally, if not more possible that it was written without his input or consent.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about "Tag to Part 1", you're being completely fair in raising that point. I do think it is possible though that it was recorded to actually replace the False Barnyard fadeout section, afterall didn't Brian eventually drop that anyway on the Smiley Smile version of Heroes? I want to stress my use of the word "audition" here, Brian recorded so many different sections because he was *auditioning* his various ideas. Like I said, he never hesitated in doing what was best for the song, if one section didn't work, he dropped it, if he liked how three bridges sounded one after another, the final version would have three bridges. When he went into record he probably asked himself where the song was lacking, did it need a more up-tempo chorus?, did it need a more relaxed bridge?
He recorded different variations and possibilities only, nothing was set in stone, he eventually gave himself so many possibilities though that choosing between them all became impossible.

[Cam Mott]

To me it's very clear Brian did plan a two sided single at least as soon as early January and it very easy to track which recordings are for which of the two sides because there were two separate masters in development with separate master numbers. One was consistently labeled on AFM records and tape boxes as H&V and the other as H&V Part 2. The existing recordings for the Part 2 master are variations on non-H&V song sections from the SMiLE album. Tag to Part One is a recording for the master number of the H&V master that was not H&V Part 2.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think "The Elements" was a possibility and wouldn't have been overly long. If you listen to "Diamond Head" - which times in at 3:40 - there are a couple/three different sections in that song.

Even if "Fire" was a minute and a half, and maybe "The Water Chant" was another minute, that still leaves you another minute and a half til you reach four minutes. And, don't forget, there were some longer songs on SMiLE such as "Cabinessence", "Surf's Up", and maybe even "Do You Like Worms". Just a thought. Hey, it's fun to discuss SMiLE again. It kind of got lost after the reunion started.

[mike s]

hi sure its mjstwo@yahoo.com - very interested to hear it and I'll send you mine even if it is now out of date and needs re-doing

It floats my boat- it is really just an excuse to get all the bits I like in one big long sequence.  I listen to it b4 any of the other versions for that reason. And cos I farted about making it for ages after TSS came out. I can email you it if you want a listen, worst case you waste 10mb of hard disk on it and them send it to the recycle bin.

[mike s]

there's a lot of speculation going on about The Elements so lets have a quick review of the facts:

1 - The Elements was described at the time as a 4 part suite depicting the 4 Elements

2 - according to Brian it was Van Dyke's idea

3 - 'Fire' was slated as: 'The Elements part 1 fire take 1' - this strongly indicates fire as the first part of a multi-part piece

4 - almost uniquely (apart from Wonderful I think) 'Fire' comes to a proper stop rather than fading - while this can't be taken as definite evidence it does support the idea that another track would have butt-edited onto it as a suite format

5 - despite the above point there is no 100% conclusive evidence for or against a 4 part suite, however just because there had never been one before doesn't mean this could not have been a first, 6 minutes long or whatever

6 - Vega-tables was linked to The Elements and may or may not have been a part of it or simply related

that's all I can think of so to summaries: reports from the time mention a 4 part suite

[buddhahat]

4 - almost uniquely (apart from Wonderful I think) 'Fire' comes to a proper stop rather than fading - while this can't be taken as definite evidence it does support the idea that another track would have butt-edited onto it as a suite format

I'm still convinced that Fire was to be followed by I Wanna Be Around/Workshop as per Carol Kaye's claim. Aside from her recollection that these two pieces belonged together and that the sessions run one after the other (although don't have the dates to hand),  IWBA sounds perfect after Fire. The most brilliant switch in mood and tempo - they just feel like they fit, far more than Fire + The water chant imo. How this all fits in with The Elements I have no idea though.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'm still convinced that Fire was to be followed by I Wanna Be Around/Workshop as per Carol Kaye's claim. Aside from her recollection that these two pieces belonged together and that the sessions run one after the other (although don't have the dates to hand),  IWBA sounds perfect after Fire. The most brilliant switch in mood and tempo - they just feel like they fit, far more than Fire + The water chant imo. How this all fits in with The Elements I have no idea though.

Do you have an opinion where Water would go and what would you use?

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

4 - almost uniquely (apart from Wonderful I think) 'Fire' comes to a proper stop rather than fading - while this can't be taken as definite evidence it does support the idea that another track would have butt-edited onto it as a suite format

I'm still convinced that Fire was to be followed by I Wanna Be Around/Workshop as per Carol Kaye's claim. Aside from her recollection that these two pieces belonged together and that the sessions run one after the other (although don't have the dates to hand),  IWBA sounds perfect after Fire. The most brilliant switch in mood and tempo - they just feel like they fit, far more than Fire + The water chant imo. How this all fits in with The Elements I have no idea though.

I make suites a lot, I work with changing tempos, keys, styles... You guys know me! haha

I am almost positive it would've been

-Fire
-I Wanna Be Around
-Air (Piano instrumental, never recorded or at least found)
-Love To Say Dada

Some great evidence to support all of this as well...

Fire -> IWBA: Carol's claim, the sessions being back to back, more then enough evidence IMO
IWBA as the Earth piece: "Pick up the pieces" I assume that this is a metaphor for an earthquake, and plus, the ending of fire (recorded almost separately) sounds like an earthquake to me...
Air Piece: No idea, but I know it was planed based on Brian's interviews at the time, it's placement has to do with the Water Chant being a good link between the two.
LTSDD as Water: Well, besides the fact that SOMEONE had to come up with the CCW idea, I doubt this wasn't water, no proof it wasn't besides the title and the "air" like sound during the rests.

Now interestingly, this really does flow, I think you could even argue that Vegatables could fit, considering the workshop ending, but who knows?

[buddhahat]

I'm still convinced that Fire was to be followed by I Wanna Be Around/Workshop as per Carol Kaye's claim. Aside from her recollection that these two pieces belonged together and that the sessions run one after the other (although don't have the dates to hand),  IWBA sounds perfect after Fire. The most brilliant switch in mood and tempo - they just feel like they fit, far more than Fire + The water chant imo. How this all fits in with The Elements I have no idea though.

Do you have an opinion where Water would go and what would you use?

No I just don't know how the elements fit into the above other than Fire as part 1. I wonder if Brian had the idea of Elements, recorded Fire and then got side tracked with I Wanna Be Around etc.

To be honest Friday Night sounds kind of watery to me, if it wasn't for the woodshop sounds. I'm not convinced that Dada was water at the time of its writing - I really think it's another song about fatherhood and babies etc. as there's the quote in the sessions book about him writing it with a baby bottle of chocolate milk on the piano, plus the baby speak in the title.

[Dunderhead]

I think any attempt to figure out what the other elements were is futile. Unless a tape turns up with a contemporary Brian Wilson-assembled mix of the final song we will never know anything for certain.

You have to go where the evidence takes you and be able to separate your own feelings from the surviving facts. In that sense I have to at least acknowledge that 'The Elements' was a possibility, but at the same time I think that the evidence for it is far weaker than many would have it be. There are a few mentions of it as Mike S is eager to remind us, particularly in interviews with David Anderele and Michael Vosse. I'd encourage everyone to take notice of the fact though that in those same interviews The Elements is described as a miniature opera, telling a clear story. Of course neither of them are able to say what any of the other parts were or what that story actually was. If we have to take what they say on face value, then I think Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables are both automatically disqualified from being a part of The Elements as they don't fit the description of the song given in the very interviews that supposedly prove the track's existence.

On the session tapes for the early version of Dada Brian himself says that during the pauses there was going to be 'a lot of talking', so I'm not sure how strong the Dada=Water case can really be. And for that matter did Brian himself actually edit the water chant and Dada together at any point? The Desper video for Cool, Cool Water explains that he and Carl thought up that combination during the Sunflower sessions. And how does Child Is The Father of The Man fit in? On TSS box on sessions for both Dada and CCW Child Is The Father of The Man appears at the end of the song. Why? The reappearance of that specific riff, and the likelihood of 'Dada' being baby talk and the 'wha-wha' being a baby crying puts a major damper on the whole Dada=Water idea. And come to think of it, in TSS box liner notes Marilyn even remembers Brian drinking out of a bottle while writing songs. Taking all that into account, there's actually more supporting evidence I think for Dada being linked to Child, Wonderful, and Surf's Up than for it being part of The Elements.

[mike s]

hi klingsor - I have to disagree:  the evidence for 'The Elements' as a multi part (most likely 4) piece is very strong:

1 - described at the time
2 - part 1 called out as 'fire'
3 - Vega-tables linked to the Elements in the booklet
4 - 'air' and 'water' mentioned although no-one knows what they would have been

in fact its not just strong its flatly stated

anything else you come up with is guesswork:  yeah the idea might have been scrapped but then again it might not

Vosse and Andrle beng unable to recall the parts means nothing - its possible they were written never recorded

I think its quite likely that the Hal Blaine Veg skit and the water 'fishy fishy' chant - of which a run through of a similar idea was described at the time as a 'vocal Atlantis' - would have been earth and water as conceptually they fit the bill, but I wouldn't try to argue for it as its very circumstantial evidence

[mike s]

oh yeah and Elements is also on the track list on the back cover slick - this has been gone into in great detail in the past and established that the chances of Brian not signing off that list are extremely remote

[Dunderhead]

1 - described at the time

By whom? I don't have LLVS so you're going to have to be more specific. Some sources are more meaningful than others, an explicit description of The 4-Part Elements Suite by Brian Wilson in a contemporary interview is one thing, but the Vosse interview I already mentioned is another entirely. It really amounts to little more than hearsay.

2 - part 1 called out as 'fire'

You're just begging the question. See my earlier post

3 - Vega-tables linked to the Elements in the booklet

"I worked mainly with the metaphor and allegory used in the lyrics which were related to me by Van Dyke. He and Brian were very busy with the music and I was reluctant to bother them with questions about the progress. I worked on my own in solitude..."

- Frank Holmes

Certainly not incontrovertible proof of anything. To begin with Frank Holmes was not privy to the whole picture that Brian and Van Dyke were working from, so I don't believe his art should override other any other contemporary source. But in the case of the 'link' you're describing, let's take a closer look at the booklet and see how it stands up.

Frank Holmes did the artwork, but did he actually design the layout of the booklet? I would suspect that the person who put "'My Vega-tables' The Elements" into the booklet was some copy editor who never heard any of the music or spoke to any of the project's creative partners directly. There are multiple errors in the booklet that undermine its' legitimacy as evidence of anything:

• "Two-step to lamps light" is actually "Two-step to lamplight"
• "Diamond necklace play the pawn" is actually "Diamond necklace played the pawn"
• "The rain of bullets eventually brought her down" is actually "The rain of the bullets that eventually brought her down"
• "Home on the range" is written as if it were the title of a song on Smile when on the back of the very sleeve which the booklet was meant to be included in, the song is correctly labelled as "Cabin Essence"

Whoever compiled the booklet was obviously working from incomplete or inaccurate information, you're assuming that the fact that "'My Vega-tables'" and "The Elements" are written near one another implies that the two are linked, but there's no clear logic in the booklet's layout and I think that overall it's very, very weak evidence.

In addition to all this, in this post I question whether or not Vega-Tables could be part of The Elements at all based on the contemporary source I believe you've been citing. It was supposed to be a musical drama, a miniature opera that told a story according to what may be the sole account of the song as a 4-part conceptual suite that we have, but Vega-Tables doesn't fit that paradigm in any way shape or form. It's a clear contradiction of your evidence that casts a further shadow of doubt over the whole argument you've been attempting to make.

4 - 'air' and 'water' mentioned although no-one knows what they would have been

By whom? Like I said, I don't have LLVS. Brian never describes The Elements as a 4-part conceptual suite in any contemporary interview that I've read, Goodbye Surfing, Hello God never discusses it in those terms, and the interview that I believe you're referring to is a 1969 interview with Michael Vosse that took place some two years after the fact. He doesn't say anything explicit about it in fact, so it's entirely unclear what if anything he's actually remembering. Like I said in response to your first point, it's little more than hearsay. It is a (1) piece of evidence, but it's not good evidence, it's not Brian Wilson himself telling us that The Elements was a 4-part conceptual suite, it's not Van Dyke telling us that either, it's one of Brian's friends who had little direct involvement with either the composition or the recording of the project.

If you have better sources you'd like to share I'm all ears, I'm really not certain which interviews or press releases you're talking about so I'd be appreciative if you'd be a little less vague on this point.

I think its quite likely that the Hal Blaine Veg skit and the water 'fishy fishy' chant - of which a run through of a similar idea was described at the time as a 'vocal Atlantis' - would have been earth and water as conceptually they fit the bill, but I wouldn't try to argue for it as its very circumstantial evidence

I wouldn't exactly say that's 'likely', it's, as you put it, 'very circumstantial'.

oh yeah and Elements is also on the track list on the back cover slick - this has been gone into in great detail in the past and established that the chances of Brian not signing off that list are extremely remote

A few points here:

• 1. I am not now, nor have I ever been contesting the mere existence of a track called "The Elements", what I am contesting is the existence of a track called "The Elements" that was a 4-part conceptual suite evoking the four classical astrological/alchemical elements. The handwritten tracklist memo lists a track called "The Elements" it does *not* list a track called "The Elements: Fire, Earth, Air, and Water". I addressed the memo already here, and in these posts was fairly explicit in the argument I was making, i.e. that "The Elements" may have only ever been "Fire"/"Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" and not the conceptual suite you're making it out to have been.

• 2. In various threads here we've discussed Brian's psychological problems fairly extensively. Many of Brian's issues fall into the Avoidant/Anxious part of the mental health spectrum, and if any of the members reading this are themselves afflicted by conditions in this category, I'm sure they can understand what it must have been like for Brian in 1966. At the time he was sinking tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in a business venture (Smile) that ran the risk of bankrupting The Beach Boys (and in fact did), he was struggling along two separate, sometimes contradictory fronts, for both commercial and critical success against his many, very competent contemporaries, he was still trying to overcome the influence of his tyrannical father as well as effectively mitigate the concerns of his vocally critical band-mates, and to top it all off, was also abusing amphetamines, hashish, and LSD and repressing adulterous feelings for his sister-in-law.
  
  The tracklist memo is, I believe, rightfully taken as spurious by many serious fans. The issue has been discussed in detail but the question has never been resolved and nothing has ever been 'established' by anyone really. Someone suffering with avoidant personality disorders does not always handle their business in a completely satisfactory manner. Brian may have been pressured into putting together some type of tracklist by Capitol executives/his management/his fellow band members, and in my opinion, if (and it's a big if) he actually had anything to do with that memo, he probably did so unwillingly and procrastinated and avoided the problem to such a degree that Diane or Carl stepped in to do it for him. If he did sign off on it, it's not necessarily because he approved of anything on it, but may have been because he simply wanted to make the pressure and stress go away with as little conflict as possible.

Now, saying all that, I still concede that there is a *possibility* that The Elements was, at one time or another, a 4-part conceptual suite. But I think that my posts in this thread should be enough to seriously challenge the actual likelihood of it really being that. Yes, there is some evidence, I am in no way denying that, but it's weak evidence, hearsay, and speculation mostly that drives the continuing belief that so many fans have that The Elements was a full blown 4-part conceptual suite. A possibility yes, not a fact, not even a strong possibility, just a glimmer of a chance and nothing more.

[Andrew G. Doe]

"The Elements" is recorded in 2 parts. This is a fact that a lot of fans have never really picked up on. "The Elements: Part 1" is not the actual name of the song, what's being recorded in that particular take is just slated as "Part 1", the ending part, the part where Brian talks about the drums "putting out" or "blowing out" the basses is actually recorded in a separate take from the rest of the song, "Part 2".

You're making a definitive, unequivocal statement here: care to support it with proof ? Plus, the session isn't logged as part 1, part 2 or part 2580 - it's logged as "The Elements (Fire)". You've also been rather selective in reporting how the track was slated by the engineer: what he actually says is "OK, The Elements, ah, part one, Fire, take one", The addition of that single word "Fire" changes the context and meaning entirely.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The whole idea of The Elements "suite" just feels wrong to me. Through the years fans have been really dead set on its' existence, but personally I'm kind of sick of fanmixes that try and shoehorn in anything and everything as being the missing parts. Firstly, a single song called "The Elements" containing a continuous medley of four sections each representing fire, earth, air and water seems really out of character.

Nonetheless, that's exactly how VDP described it as to me when I asked him about Smile in general some years ago. In response to my asking about segues/crossfades between tracks, he stated that there were never intended to be any, except within one track, and that that track was "The Elements". That he volunteered this information essentially unprompted, and in reply to an almost completely different question (he could have just as easily said "no": actually, it being Van Dyke, no, he wouldn't, but you get my drift) strikes me as significant.  I think he'd know.