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Author Topic: '72 Smile  (Read 21763 times)
EgoHanger1966
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« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2012, 07:24:12 PM »

What's even worse is the freakout he had (not documented in Beautful Dreamer), where he claimed he still had acid left in his brain (he was alone with Darian IIRC).

wat Sad



We stopped for the holiday break and the next time I saw Brian, he was a mess. I came over with a stack of lyrics so he and I could sit down and start actually going through the lead vocal parts that he would have to perform and he was not happening. I remember him shaking and he sat down and he started crying and yelling “I’m f@#$%! I’m f@#$%!”

I had seen this through cracked doors, but this was the first time it was just him and me. Melinda was off at a meeting and he was really freaking out. So, I said “OK Brian, let’s just try and listen to some of this,” and he said “OK. OK. OK.”

We made it through maybe three songs and in the middle of the song he hurled the lyric sheet all the way across the room and screamed, “AHHHHHHH!!!” Lindsay, it was scary. I mean really scary. I ran down to the housekeeper who was familiar with this stuff happening. She knew it was for real and he was begging her to take him to the hospital and we are still trying to call Melinda. I didn’t know what to do and tried to be a calming force. At one point I heard him yelling to me from the other room “Darian! Darian! They are trying to kill me! They are trying to kill me!”

I thought, “maybe until Melinda gets home, I can just sit with him and talk.” He was asking me all sorts of questions and he was just scared. He’d say, “Have you ever dropped acid? Do you take drugs? How do you deal with that?” He’d describe this feeling in his chest that he can’t get rid of. Man, that was really scary. And then we had to start rehearsing within the next week with the band, mainly the vocalists. That is some of what you see in the film.

I found out later that that incident was part of his seasonal depression, especially now that he is the last Wilson [of his generation] standing. His mom, dad, brothers are all gone. There was that and then there was the reality that we had to do SMiLE for real. There was a concert date set and we have to do this. All that stuff that happened with Van Dyke in the fall when he was in the moment and it was cool and he was happy, well that was gone. It was now time to do this and it was rough. He’d just sit there and it was like we were working without a head. The head was not attached to the body.





Darian Sahanaja recounting a Smile rehearsal, 2004



Source: crutchfield.com
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Dunderhead
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« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2012, 07:37:45 PM »

I've read that before, but every time I see it...it just destroys me.

Brian Wilson has brought so much joy into my life, knowing that he suffers like that...it's just too much
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« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2012, 07:43:42 PM »

And you can say what you will about Melinda and Darian, but I think that the people surrounding Brian these days love him, and that we'll probably never know how much they've really done for him.

Whether or not BWPS represents a finished Smile, I don't care. If releasing it helped Brian, if it gave him one less thing to be anxious about, if it helped him in anyway to understand how much people love and admire him then I'm glad that it was done. I just wish Brian Wilson was happy honestly.
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« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2012, 07:58:00 PM »

And you can say what you will about Melinda and Darian, but I think that the people surrounding Brian these days love him, and that we'll probably never know how much they've really done for him.

Whether or not BWPS represents a finished Smile, I don't care. If releasing it helped Brian, if it gave him one less thing to be anxious about, if it helped him in anyway to understand how much people love and admire him then I'm glad that it was done. I just wish Brian Wilson was happy honestly.

I'll second that.
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« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2012, 07:59:43 PM »

My big thing has always been that after '67, the "real" Smile (that may have only existed in Brian's mind, in a fleeting manner at that) was no longer possible because even just 5 years later, Brian wasn't the same guy anymore.  



For some reason that picture really gets me. I know you probably did it for laughs, Spil, but it IS kinda poignant to me. It's crazy to me that this guy really is the same Brian Wilson who did Pet Sounds, "Surf's Up", "Please Let Me Wonder", etc. I know it sounds stupid but I guess sometimes I consider today's Brian to be a different entity than the guy from the '60s. But he's still here, and I think that's fucking great. I just hope he has found happiness in one way or another.

And you can say what you will about Melinda and Darian, but I think that the people surrounding Brian these days love him, and that we'll probably never know how much they've really done for him.

Whether or not BWPS represents a finished Smile, I don't care. If releasing it helped Brian, if it gave him one less thing to be anxious about, if it helped him in anyway to understand how much people love and admire him then I'm glad that it was done. I just wish Brian Wilson was happy honestly.

Honestly, I don't know if it really made that much difference that he finished SMiLE, and one does have to wonder if it was worth the pain that he obviously went through while putting together BWPS. However, it probably is good for him that he no longer has to answer interview questions about if it's ever gonna come out, why not, etc.

However, I do think that reuniting with The Beach Boys and putting out a great new album has helped him. He really seems happy with the guys, and it doesn't seem like he's been complaining about writer's block like it seemed he was for a while there.
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runnersdialzero
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« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2012, 08:02:31 PM »

God damn.
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« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2012, 08:57:17 PM »

 police
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« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2012, 08:14:47 AM »

Demon, were you a fan in 2004? Did you follow BWPS in the media? Brian did extensive interviewing in print and on TV. Yes, of course his answers were scripted. In each interview he basically said the same thing. But....

Brian WAS promoting BWPS as the finished Smile, not as a substitute. He said - and I'm NOT paraphrasing, I'm quoting - "We finished it", "The public wasn't ready for it in 1966 but now they are", "My wife and managers asked me to FINISH it", "We added a third movement and finished it", "It took 37 years but we finally finished it".

Brian ignored all of the other previously recorded SMiLE tracks that were released for decades, including the nearly half an hour of tracks on the 1992 box set. Actually, Brian said barely anything about his vision for the 1966-67 SMiLE songs. It's like they didn't even exist. And, to be clear, he was talking about BWPS the album, not the live performance.

Yes, I was a fan then.  He did finish Smile, in the sense that he put together a version of the musical pieces started during the original Smile period.  Saying, "We finished it," doesn't mean that he finished the 1966 or 1967 Smile, as the album was understood in those time periods.  As someone else pointed out, even Smile in those two years was different.  He finished the music in the sense that he could not go back in time and give us any of those older versions.  That is why it's unfair and nonsensical to compare BWPS to any version of Smile.  BWPS is someone bringing closure to ideas they stopped pursuing long before and should be received as such.  People don't have the same extreme dislike for "Cool Cool Water" or the 1970s "Surf's Up," though these are no different in their ideological approach to the original Smile material than BWPS or Smiley Smile.  That is because listeners tend to view music through their own needs long before trying to understand the music on its own terms.  Most criticism of Brian's interpretations and voicing of his own ideas originates in the listener's need for Brian to share the listener's vision, rather than a genuine hearing of the music on its own terms.  Hence the feeling that "Surf's Up" had to come last on the album, for example, because it was Brian's masterpiece, it's the most epic track, or it sounds best.  But to whom are those feelings true?  Only that listener.  When Brian does something different with the Smile material, they feel he got it wrong.  It never occurs to them that he got it right and that perhaps they don't like Smile as much as they thought.  They like their version of Smile more than the creator's. 

It's kind of like how many music listeners misuse the term "filler," now.  "Filler" only means you are putting a track on a release because you need to fill space, as opposed to genuinely having something to say.  It doesn't mean the track is good or bad.  These days, when a listener hears a song they don't like, they refer to it as "filler," as if the composer has to share the same opinion of their work as that specific listener. 
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« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2012, 09:07:42 AM »

I think we are over contemplating this. BWPS is Smile as completed in 2004; not Smile completed as it would have been in 1967. Pretty sure we can all agree on that.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2012, 09:47:47 AM »

Saying, "We finished it," doesn't mean that he finished the 1966 or 1967 Smile, as the album was understood in those time periods.

In that case, what was it that he finished?

Quote
He finished the music in the sense that he could not go back in time and give us any of those older versions. 

This is unclear. What is he finishing in this scenario?


Quote
That is why it's unfair and nonsensical to compare BWPS to any version of Smile.

Even though the vast majority of the album was made up of music that came from the Smile recording sessions?

Quote
BWPS is someone bringing closure to ideas they stopped pursuing long before and should be received as such.

What ideas are you referring to?

Quote
  People don't have the same extreme dislike for "Cool Cool Water" or the 1970s "Surf's Up," though these are no different in their ideological approach to the original Smile material than BWPS or Smiley Smile. 

Yes, they are different in their ideological approach. Since CCW was not part of BWPS or the Disc 1 TSS we can put it aside. Surf's Up 1971 is The Beach Boys releasing as much of the 1966 version as they can, which is why they use the 1966 backing track and the 1966 demo. This is entirely different from the BWPS approach which was to re-record the song entirely. There's nothing wrong with that either, but calling it the same ideological approach is misleading.

Quote
That is because listeners tend to view music through their own needs long before trying to understand the music on its own terms. 

You explain then how it's even possible to listen to music in this way.

Quote
Most criticism of Brian's interpretations and voicing of his own ideas originates in the listener's need for Brian to share the listener's vision, rather than a genuine hearing of the music on its own terms.

I think that the listener is always going to impact what he or she is listening to. Always.

Quote
  Hence the feeling that "Surf's Up" had to come last on the album, for example, because it was Brian's masterpiece, it's the most epic track, or it sounds best.  But to whom are those feelings true?  Only that listener.  When Brian does something different with the Smile material, they feel he got it wrong.  It never occurs to them that he got it right and that perhaps they don't like Smile as much as they thought.  They like their version of Smile more than the creator's. 

I think you are ignoring the valid point above made about why Good Vibrations came last on BWPS. But moreover, why are you elevating the author to this God-like status? Why can't the listener have their own reading of material that may not be what the artist intended? How does this kind of engagement with a piece of art suggest that one doesn't like the material? Do you have to be invested in the artist as having the final say over the interpretation of their creation before you can say that you like it?

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« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2012, 10:39:12 AM »

A 72 Smile would have been Carl's version of Smile, presumably assembled with Brian's permission but with little participation.  Carl was at many of the sessions and was no doubt the best person to try and complete it, other than Brian of course.  Carl was already finishing Brian songs left in various stages of completion, and look at Cabinessence and Surf's Up.  I would suggest his finished versions of these songs surpass anything Brian has subsequently done with the Smile material.  So wouldn't you want a finished Worms from 72 with Al or Carl on lead vocals?  A Carl edited and finished Smile Vegetables? 

I was very disappointed this didn't happen - if Carl had enlisted Van Dyke to help, I think it may have happened.  Van convinced Brian he wasn't crazy and got him to finish Sail on Sailor, he could have pushed him to help Carl with Smile.  If it had been released in 72 it would be considered the legitimate and definitive Smile.
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Jukka
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« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2012, 10:39:52 AM »

I think we are over contemplating this. BWPS is Smile as completed in 2004; not Smile completed as it would have been in 1967. Pretty sure we can all agree on that.

Yes. And Smile 1966 would have been different from Smile 1967. And Smile January 1967 would have been different from Smile April 1967.
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« Reply #62 on: September 02, 2012, 10:43:40 AM »

I think we are over contemplating this. BWPS is Smile as completed in 2004; not Smile completed as it would have been in 1967. Pretty sure we can all agree on that.

Yes. And Smile 1966 would have been different from Smile 1967. And Smile January 1967 would have been different from Smile April 1967.

I don't know about you guys, but a January 1967 Smile would have been totally terrible and so far from Brian's original vision if he had finished it in 1966. Like, what was he thinking still working on it, at that point? Don't get me started on the April 1967 version.
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The Demon
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« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2012, 11:17:45 AM »

Quote

This is unclear. What is he finishing in this scenario?


Smile.  The lack of clarity is kind of the point, though.  There is no one concrete album to really give the name Smile to.

Quote
Even though the vast majority of the album was made up of music that came from the Smile recording sessions?

Yes.  If the primary factor for judgment is to measure one rendition of a Smile section against all renditions of the same section, you are never going to like what you hear.

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What ideas are you referring to?

Any of them.  Anything in the music or lyrics, as well as ideas from interviews with Brian Wilson (the "teenage symphony..." quote, for example).

Quote
Yes, they are different in their ideological approach. Since CCW was not part of BWPS or the Disc 1 TSS we can put it aside. Surf's Up 1971 is The Beach Boys releasing as much of the 1966 version as they can, which is why they use the 1966 backing track and the 1966 demo. This is entirely different from the BWPS approach which was to re-record the song entirely. There's nothing wrong with that either, but calling it the same ideological approach is misleading.

They are all reworkings, though.  My point is that many Beach Boys fans have issues with certain Smile-related recordings that they feel stray too far from whatever Smile is (as if they can define that clearly), while excusing other recordings, such as the ones I mentioned.  But, Brian has had no problem letting the music evolve, so why should fans take issue with that?  The ideology is that Smile isn't set in stone, that the songs aren't frozen and that the artist can change them over time.  There was no concept of "Cool Cool Water" when "All Day" was recorded, so why is that okay while fake harpsichords or an old voice or some other factor make BWPS inferior?

Quote
You explain then how it's even possible to listen to music in this way.

Imagination.  Put on BWPS and listen as if it was totally new music released in 2004.  Forget all the baggage of Smile history.  What is the point of reading every article and interview on the subject if none of those objective pieces of trivia help you hear the music on its own terms anyway?

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I think that the listener is always going to impact what he or she is listening to. Always.

They will.  They have to.  The listener's immediate point of view will always be their own, but that doesn't mean another perspective can't be imagined.  It doesn't mean an album can't be heard as just a collection of sounds, instead of hearing the album as something that must please you, must be your soundtrack, must fulfill some view of history that you have.

Quote
 I think you are ignoring the valid point above made about why Good Vibrations came last on BWPS. But moreover, why are you elevating the author to this God-like status? Why can't the listener have their own reading of material that may not be what the artist intended? How does this kind of engagement with a piece of art suggest that one doesn't like the material? Do you have to be invested in the artist as having the final say over the interpretation of their creation before you can say that you like it?

I don't think the author is god-like, but I don't think the audience is god-like either.  We can have our own readings, but there is a difference between saying something is inferior and not liking it.  "Inferior" implies that there must be one true version, one true answer.  As you pointed out with Brian's, "We finished it," quote, "it" is undefined.  There is no one Smile, which is almost the point, after all these years.  It's why BWPS is great, why TSS is great, and why Cam Mott's Smiley-Smile-as-Smile theory is so great.

"Good Vibrations" as the best ending to a live rendition of the Smile music isn't an incorrect reading, and I think John Stone could make a great argument for that.  But can anyone say that's why it was chosen?  Is there a reason to disbelieve that it's not the best ending to the album, specifically an album with many lyrics about couples and raising children, co-written by a man whose obsession with women has been well-documented, and who returns time and again to love songs far more than he does songs about the wild west or colonialism?  I used to think it was a weak ending, too, but then I realized that it was easy to be disappointed with "Good Vibrations" as an ending because the climax to this mystery (the Smile sequence, as if there was just one) was the one piece I already knew in a completed form.  Once I let go of that, I realized that I couldn't pick a better ending.  Sure, I could argue alternatives--"Surf's Up" with its ending "Child..." refrain is tempting and similarly brings the album back to a romantic conclusion--but how could I say one was better?  I can only say I like one more than another, but that's due to my own reasons for liking the Smile music, not because of what Smile is or Brian wanted it to be.  And that's why I think comparing any live or recorded interpretation of Smile against others as if they're all striving to answer the same question is silly.  The arguments fall apart on their own, like when people dismiss Smiley Smile because they think Smile was Brian working at the cutting edge of music and Smiley was lazy--it wasn't.  Smile was of its time, a flower power album made by young, inexperienced kids preaching big concepts like peace and love, and making ornate studio music.  Smiley was more cutting edge, it doesn't sound like much else of that time.  And, really, none of these versions are trying to be another.  If they were, there would have been no need to record them in the first place.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 11:24:42 AM by The Demon » Logged
The Demon
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« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2012, 11:18:24 AM »

.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2012, 11:49:33 AM »


Quote

This is unclear. What is he finishing in this scenario?


Smile.  The lack of clarity is kind of the point, though.  There is no one concrete album to really give the name Smile to.

I'm sorry but I think that the lack of clarity comes from you trying to make excuses for the quote "We finished it."

Quote
If the primary factor for judgment is to measure one rendition of a Smile section against all renditions of the same section, you are never going to like what you hear.

That's quite untrue. The best way we can compare any work of art is by comparison. Just because I think that Notes From Underground is the best book I've ever read, it doesn't mean that I don't like any other book just because I use that one book as a point of reference - nor does it mean that it's impossible for me to eventually read a book that's better than Notes From Underground.

And just to make myself clear: BWPS is one of my favourite albums.


Quote
Any of them.  Anything in the music or lyrics, as well as ideas from interviews with Brian Wilson (the "teenage symphony..." quote, for example).

So, in that sense, he was finishing the album he had in mind in 1966?

Quote
They are all reworkings, though.

Not really. BWPS Surf's Up isn't a reworking. It's a re-recording which tries to note-perfectly capture the version from Surf's Up 1971 with a few new additions.

Quote
 My point is that many Beach Boys fans have issues with certain Smile-related recordings that they feel stray too far from whatever Smile is (as if they can define that clearly), while excusing other recordings, such as the ones I mentioned.

Then doesn't it follow that maybe the criticism is not the fact that it "strays too far from whatever Smile is" but maybe some other reason? Perhaps, maybe, the reasons offered in this thread that you have thus far ignored.

Quote
But, Brian has had no problem letting the music evolve, so why should fans take issue with that?

They don't.

Quote
 The ideology is that Smile isn't set in stone, that the songs aren't frozen and that the artist can change them over time.  There was no concept of "Cool Cool Water" when "All Day" was recorded, so why is that okay while fake harpsichords or an old voice or some other factor make BWPS inferior?

Because some people think that synthesized instruments and inferior voices can make things sound...I don't know...worse? Is it so impossible to believe that people are criticizing the synthesized instruments because they are synthesized not because the instruments are not meeting up to some listener expectation of how Smile is supposed to sound?

Quote
Imagination.  Put on BWPS and listen as if it was totally new music released in 2004.

Please tell me what hypnosis trick you used so that the existence of Smile was wiped entirely from your memory. And did you ever get these memories back or did you have to re-learn them all in the style of Eternal Sunshine?

  
Quote
I think that the listener is always going to impact what he or she is listening to. Always.

Quote
I don't think the author is god-like, but I don't think the audience is god-like either.  We can have our own readings, but there is a difference between saying something is inferior and not liking it.  "Inferior" implies that there must be one true version, one true answer.

It doesn't imply that at all.


Quote
 As you pointed out with Brian's, "We finished it," quote, "it" is undefined.

I didn't point that out at all. I think what "it" was was very clearly implied by the Brian camp. The "it" that was finished was the Smile that he started in the 60s.

Quote
 There is no one Smile, which is almost the point, after all these years.  It's why BWPS is great, why TSS is great, and why Cam Mott's Smiley-Smile-as-Smile theory is so great.

I agree.

Quote
"Good Vibrations" as the best ending to a live rendition of the Smile music isn't an incorrect reading, and I think John Stone could make a great argument for that.  But can anyone say that's why it was chosen?

Well, since you just said that you "could make a great argument for that" then, yes.

Quote
 Is there a reason to disbelieve that it's not the best ending to the album, specifically an album with many lyrics about couples and raising children, co-written by a man whose obsession with women has been well-documented, and who returns time and again to love songs far more than he does songs about the wild west or colonialism?  I used to think it was a weak ending, too, but then I realized that it was easy to be disappointed with "Good Vibrations" as an ending because the climax to this mystery (the Smile sequence, as if there was just one) was the one piece I already knew in a completed form.  Once I let go of that, I realized that I couldn't pick a better ending.  Sure, I could argue alternatives--"Surf's Up" with its ending "Child..." refrain is tempting and similarly brings the album back to a romantic conclusion--but how could I say one was better?  I can only say I like one more than another, but that's due to my own reasons for liking the Smile music, not because of what Smile is or Brian wanted it to be.  

What's the difference between saying "one is better" and "I like one more than another." Do you really believe we have to put "In my opinion" in front of everything we say? I mean, isn't that implied?

Quote
 The arguments fall apart on their own, like when people dismiss Smiley Smile because Smile was Brian working at the cutting edge of music--it wasn't.

It wasn't? Have you heard the other albums that were made in 1966? Christ, The Monkees first album was just released as Brian was recording Child is Father of the Man. When Brian was recording Surf's Up, the top songs in the chart were (aside from Good Vibrations) Reach Out I'll Be There (Four Tops), Semi-Detached Suburban Mr. James (Manfred Mann), Stop Stop Stop (The Hollies), Gimme Some Lovin' (Spencer Davis Group), Green Green Grass of Home (Tom Jones), Last Train to Clarksville (Monkees). These songs are great, but hardly the stuff of Surf's Up or Heroes and Villains or Cabin Essence. I mean, was there anything of this level being made at the time aside from maybe some of the songs on Revolver?

 
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 Smile was of its time, a flower power album.

It is absolutely not a flower power album.

 
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 Smiley was more cutting edge, hence its dismissal then and long after.

That's absurd. There were plenty of cutting edge albums that were never dismissed.

Quote
 None of these versions are trying to be another.  If they were, there would have been no need to record them in the first place.

Well, when BWPS was recorded, I don't think there was much thought that the Smile Sessions would be put out so soon. This is probably why they tried to match the original recordings so closely. And in that regard, I'd say that I would disagree and say that they were trying to be like the original recordings when they recorded BWPS.
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« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2012, 11:55:41 AM »

EDIT: OH NO.
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« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2012, 12:15:45 PM »

   

I agree and disagree with some things you said, but I respect your opinion (imo). I still want to go to Brian Camp.
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« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2012, 12:22:38 PM »

 LOL
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« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2012, 12:53:45 PM »

Quote
I think what "it" was was very clearly implied by the Brian camp.

I want to go to Brian Camp. It sounds fun. Or maybe it's a hellish nightmare, I don't fucking know.

I think at Brian camp, you just sit around the campfire all day singing Shortenin' Bread in five-part harmony.
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« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2012, 12:58:01 PM »

@runnerzzz - I lol'd. Although the fact that you've never heard The Hollies' "Bus Stop" is a travesty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It75wQ0JypA
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« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2012, 01:01:41 PM »

@runnersdialzero



 LOL LOL LOL
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I don't know where, but their music sends me there
Pleasure Island!!!!!!! and a slice of cheese pizza.
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« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2012, 01:04:58 PM »

@runnerzzz - I lol'd. Although the fact that you've never heard The Hollies' "Bus Stop" is a travesty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It75wQ0JypA

This is purty cool, and not in a "lol thanks for the link, but I don't give a sh*t and didn't really listen" sort of way - I genuinely like it. Thanks. ^_^
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« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2012, 01:05:18 PM »

this thread is visually hard to read.
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Every time you spell Smile as SMiLE, an angel's wings are forcibly torn off its body.
Paulos
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« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2012, 01:17:18 PM »

Runners, that was amazing but you made the thread visually hard to read, apparently.
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