The Smiley Smile Message Board

Just thought of this... Had smile come out in '72... Would it be considered the "real deal" by everyone here?
I mean, if people say BWPS and TSS aren't "legit"...

That entirely depends on what that record contained, sounded like, and who was participating.
And even then, you'd probably get most people on this board saying 'no'.

It would be interesting to see how the album would have been put together in '72. I wonder if it would have had an impact considering H & V, GV, Vegetables, Wonderful, Wind Chimes, Our Prayer, Cabinessence and Surf's Up would have already been released in some form by that point.

I did a mix of Smile with this in mind when TSS first vame out.

Assuming Brian was heavily involved (and in 1972 I'm not sure that would have happened), I think it would have more legitimacy than BWPS, but I'm of the mind that once 1967 passed, nothing can or could ever truly be the "real deal", Brian or no Brian. 

What keeps Brian's Smile from being legitimate?  Whether it has the Beach Boys on it or not, Smile was Brian's project from beginning to end.  I think that makes any Smile with involvement from Brian the "real deal."

What do you mean by legit?

BWPS is the completed work. It is legitimate in the eyes of everyone who matters. That does not mean it is a legitimate reproduction of what smile may have become in 1967 or 1971. But that does not mean it is not legitimate. That is like saying Back Home from 15 Big Ones is not legitimate because it was not a completed version from 1963.

This is a distinction I think it is important to be made when discussing smile.

When Brian says that the 2004 BWPS was "more uplifting, much happier, more progressive," there are a number of us who pause and wonder what the real concept behind Smile really is.  Is it childhood and youth like Brian Wilson says today, or is it something deeper and heavier, like coming close to God?  Is Roll Plymouth Rock a song about Hawaii and Plymouth Rock or is it about how the principles of cooperation that the original Pilgrims and Natives exemplified were abandoned by future generations?  There is a whole heaping of remorse and repentance on Smile, as well as the happy stuff.  BWPS gives us great ideas about Smile, but does it speak the concepts that gave birth to it?  Pet Sounds has enough about lost innocence and growing up.  Smile is something bigger and more spiritual.  I don't catch that same spirit when I listen to BWPS, though I love to hear Brian sing and play music he had distanced himself from for so many years.  There's redemption there too.

Troof.

Also, if Brian had been the main creative force behind it (help from others would have been fine, obviously), then absolutely. It wouldn't have been the same as a '67 version, but if it just would have taken a few more years to complete, what's the problem?

A Carl/Desper finishing of it in '72 would have been extremely cool, but the authenticity would have been more questionable. That's not to discredit Carl etc. it's just that it was Brian's baby with the band assisting in its sound and style. Shift that balance and ehhh.

One could argue that a 72 release of Smile nullify this sort of discussion.  We wouldn't know the difference.

In 1972, there already was a SMiLE myth/mystery thing going on. Of course we would know the difference.
If people are looking for "The" SMiLE, it will never exist because Brian Wilson couldn't/wouldn't/whatever finish it in 1967.
We are lucky to have numerous different titles, editions, packagings, sequences to choose from. But none of them is the SMiLE that Brian set out to make in the mid-60s.

BWPS was completed so they could play it live. I believe they were running out of ideas to keep Brian's live act alive. It was then recorded to make money.

Well that's a cynical way of looking at it.  I'm sure they wanted to make money but that doesn't mean there wasn't any artistic integrity in it.  I certainly think there was.  It's not like Brian was forced to do it against his will.  He was asked to do it, he agreed to do it, and he did it.  He did it with a lot of help but he did it.  And we should be glad he did.

I respect your opinion.

Would you have preferred if Brian left Smile alone rather than finish it?  Whatever happened behind the scenes, you can't deny that it sounds great.

Believe it or not, it seems a fair amount of people would have rather not seen it happen. I know it sounds odd, but yeah.

I wish Brian would have left BWPS as a live performance. He/they did an incredible job with it in a concert setting.

To re-record the SMiLE songs, call it finished, and release it as such is a disgrace and a fraud. But that's a long story.

I do deny that it sounds great. While there are some parts of it that are good, especially parts of the second movement, I do not enjoy listening to it. Actually, I hardly ever listen to it.

I didn't preface each sentence with "In my opinion". It's understood.

It's Brian's work to do with as he pleases. Like it or not, that's the truth. There's no fraud involved - that goes out the window the second you see the full album title.

Agreed.  Like I said, the album is Brian's work.  He can do whatever the hell he wants with it.  And what he did with it, I'm happy with.  And if anybody wasn't happy with it, I think last year's release more than makes up for it.

Brian's "right to do with it whatever he wants to" isn't the issue. It's WHAT HE DID WITH IT that I have problems with. But, some don't and I'm glad they enjoy it.

Similar to the OP, for the fans who were around in 1988 (with many more years and many more changes in the band since 1972), were you looking at the possibility of a release as the band's finished, wholly-realized vision for the album, or more of an archival release meant to get the material out and generate some buzz for the group?  What do you think it would have meant to you, had you held that LP/cassette in your hands?

My only real issue with BWPS being considered the "legit" version, if you will, is that it's just that - Brian Wilson's SMiLE, and to me, Smile is a Beach Boys project.  If, through whichever impossible means, the Beach Boys were on that album in 2004, I would view it as authoritative, even if the 1966/67 tapes would likely still contain my preferred take on the material.  Though I greatly enjoy BBWPS, as it stands, it's TSS for me.  Does that make any sense?

That's totally fair. I am wondering what he did with it tht you feel he should have done differently, though - not to argue against it, just curious to hear why.

I imagined it would have been something like the Three album/2 cd Vigotone stuff that came out shortly after that...In other words I pictured all the usual songs, plus Can't Wait Too Long on 1 cd and maybe some alternates and sessions on another cd, but really I think I expected one cd...and i would have been psyched. I was in High School and I remember a guy who just thought the Beatles were the best and having some kind of official SMiLe cd would have helped my case (or a Pet Sounds cd for that matter).

BWPS is a Smile, just as CD1 of TSS is a Smile... but neither of them are THE Smile. No such thing ever existed beond the confines of Brian's imagination.

As you can see from the above, no-one would've been satisfied. Even without the whiners, look at this board and see how many people would drop tracks from this album or that one, knowing that there were others recorded at the time that could be used as replacements.  And when that wasn't the case, who cares?  Take a track from another album! Then you take SMiLE with the knowledge of all those variations recorded.  Do you really think people would've accepted it as the last word?  Not even for a 66 version. Not for a minute.

Wow, that's an excellent point actually.

Y'r right… if SMiLE had come out in '67, folk would have said it didn't match the envisaged '66 version. Only then there were no message boards, so we'd all have had to form our own opinions, based on what the music press was saying.

I think that even by 1968 the music scene had changed too much for Smile to really work. The psychedelic movement hit its highmark in the summer of 1967 and that's when the competition for Smile would have been strongest. I really do believe that a Smile after 1967 would sound very out of place and out of context. Especially if it showed up in mono! Still Smile '72 is a tantalizing idea...

Since it didn't come out in '66 or '67, when it could have made a difference in that fertile time of change, Smile eventually became the totality of the sessions from that era.  It became an idea bigger than what could ever fit onto a 45-minute album.  It even became, in a way, the modular concept itself, which vanishes as soon as it's locked into an album sequence.

I do accept BWPS as final in its own way, but not in an exclusive way.  It was finished by Brian and Van Dyke Parks, which is all the legitimacy it needs for me.

Yes. Precisely said and quite right too.

I'll preface my answer by saying again that I had few problems with the live presentation of BWPS. I mean, what BB/BW diehard wouldn't want to hear/see Brian and his band perform the SMiLE songs. It covered a lot of bases. It was daring, ambitious, giving people their money's worth, giving some people what they want(ed), and it was done well. And, it gave Brian's wifeandmanagers another way to get some publicity, sell tickets, and extend a solo career. But that's another story.

I'll also say again that this is just one man's opinion. I'm in the minority (not that I care) and I've come to realize that a lot of people enjoy the album. And, it's not a matter of what I feel he should have done differently, it's SIMPLY what I didn't care for.

- Brian Wilson's vocals in 2004 were substantially inferior to the 1966-67 vocals and didn't do the SMiLE songs justice.

- I do not like the way the songs are linked together. I prefer fades, especially on "Do You Like Worms", "Cabinessence", and "Surf's Up". The way the BWPS songs keep coming at you, without a break in between songs, is very uncomfortable. I need to come up for a breath.

- While I actually like most of the sequencing, I do not like "Good Vibrations" ENDING the album. I know why it was done - it was the best "closer" for a live presentation. I don't think the song works well as a closer for the album.

- And, the "Good Vibrations" issue is the crux of my problems with BWPS. They simply took the live presentation, note for note, recorded it, and called SMiLE finished. It was marketed that way; Brian repeated it over and over in his interviews - "We finished it..." That's when the project lost all credibility with me. How could something that was put together exclusively for a live concert turn into the "finished SMiLE"?

Well, not for me. The Brian Wilson of 2004 wasn't capable of finishing SMiLE for reasons I don't have the energy to get into now. There are many other reasons SMiLE couldn't then - or ever - be finished. So, don't tell me that the 2004 BWPS was the finished SMiLE, that Brian and Van Dyke Parks and Darian Sahanaja fiinished it. They tried to sell the public on that and it worked to a large extent. It sold some records, sold out some concerts, and got Brian a Grammy. So, ultimately, they succeeded in what they set out to do. But, the selling of BWPS as Brian finishing it and exorcising demons really turns me off.

It insults my intelligence and it makes me very angry.  ;D

But this is why it's called Brian Wilson Presents Smile.  It's not Smile, just like Smiley Smile isn't Smile and The Smile Sessions isn't Smile.  This is why they have different titles.  You're judging BWPS for being something it's not trying to be, just like all the Smiley haters bemoan that it's not Smile as if it was ever presented as Smile.  BWPS is a totally different experience if accepted as its own piece instead of a substitute for whatever the Beach Boys' Smile would have been.

Demon, were you a fan in 2004? Did you follow BWPS in the media? Brian did extensive interviewing in print and on TV. Yes, of course his answers were scripted. In each interview he basically said the same thing. But....

Brian WAS promoting BWPS as the finished Smile, not as a substitute. He said - and I'm NOT paraphrasing, I'm quoting - "We finished it", "The public wasn't ready for it in 1966 but now they are", "My wife and managers asked me to FINISH it", "We added a third movement and finished it", "It took 37 years but we finally finished it".

Brian ignored all of the other previously recorded SMiLE tracks that were released for decades, including the nearly half an hour of tracks on the 1992 box set. Actually, Brian said barely anything about his vision for the 1966-67 SMiLE songs. It's like they didn't even exist. And, to be clear, he was talking about BWPS the album, not the live performance.

The whole BWPS "we finished it and the album is better than the 1966 version" was very annoying to me.

That raises a question as to whether or not a '72 SMiLE would've been in stereo or mono.  For it to be in stereo, the Boys would've had to do a LOT of re-recording.

All fact.

Is there a statutory time limit on how long it may take for a piece of art to be completed and anything that goes beyond that timeframe is considered invalid?

Agree with AGD and on many points from Mr. Stone.  Even the recent Smile release isn't the definitive Smile (But probably the closest as Brian envisioned it). There isn't one because the original never came out, so everything else is just specualation. Even the stereo mixes of songs aren't what Brian originaly envisioned, even though some of us like them better. Soooooo........... Smile ends up being whatever you want it to be!

I have a live show somewhere, I think from 1971(?) where Mike announces the probable release of Smile the following year. That little excerpt is on the Endless Harmony CD.

My big thing has always been that after '67, the "real" Smile (that may have only existed in Brian's mind, in a fleeting manner at that) was no longer possible because even just 5 years later, Brian wasn't the same guy anymore.  His confidence and inspiration were gone, and it wouldn't have been the same album.  Once the moment passed, there was no way to get it back, even if he'd returned to the project and finished in, say, 1968.

The same point holds true for BWPS - I hold the same opinion as Sheriff that it should have stayed a live performance piece.  As Andrew said, it's a Smile, not the Smile, and I don't think they should have presented it as the latter.  Even Brian himself says it turned out a lot different than it would have been in '66-'67, and for me, that takes away some (but not all) legitimacy.

I realize there's a fundamental disconnect between what I just said and what I'm about to say, but I do respect Brian's right to do what he wants with his own creation.  He's certainly earned that right.  BWPS did a lot for his confidence and personal happiness it seems, brought new fans to Brian and the Boys, and obviously a lot of people truly love the live version as well as the studio recording.  I don't begrudge anybody's opinions.  BWPS, the studio album, just doesn't work for me I guess.

Right arm, Chris.

But would Brian himself agree with that?

It depends. What day of the week is it?

I have to disagree with this completely. I know that he got through it and it probably made him a lot more secure (or did it?), but you can tell from the footage of Beautiful Dreamer that he totally didn't want to go "there". You see that footage in his house where they're rehearsing and Brian can't even open his eyes and looks to be in extreme mental anguish??? I'd bet he didn't put himself into that situation willingly - more like complied with what his wife/manager thought would be good for him. What's even worse is the freakout he had (not documented in Beautful Dreamer), where he claimed he still had acid left in his brain (he was alone with Darian IIRC). Of course I am a total outsider but it seems that Brian is pushed into a lot of things he doesn't want to do, but he gets through them as best he can. That doesn't mean he's happy doing them.

If we can't define what the "real" SMiLe is how can we be sure that BWPS is not the "real" SMiLE.  In my mind it is as close as we can get.  VDP's presence helps.  Could the 1972 SMiLE have been SMiLE without VDP there to help finish it?

(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6618/1pqah.jpg)

It is circumstances like these that make me doubt the legitimacy of BWPS everytime.  Darian found interesting ways of piecing all the feels together, along with the orchestral transitions, and I will always be indebted to Darian for his part in bringing this music to a wider audience, but Smile is still Brian's baby, the height of his genius.  He could have never released it and it would be the ultimate musical puzzle (it still is) for future generations.

 :lol  :lol  :lol

I didn't mean to imply that he was necessarily happy throughout the process - I was speaking more to his state of mind after BWPS was behind him.  Many of those around him noted that it seemed like after the tour and studio album, a weight had been lifted from his shoulders.  I do believe that the project restored some of his confidence, hence the more frequent concert tours and studio albums post-BWPS as compared to the time pre-BWPS.  I'm not sure we would have had an album like That Lucky Old Sun had it not been for the completion of BWPS.

wat :(

“
We stopped for the holiday break and the next time I saw Brian, he was a mess. I came over with a stack of lyrics so he and I could sit down and start actually going through the lead vocal parts that he would have to perform and he was not happening. I remember him shaking and he sat down and he started crying and yelling “I’m f@#$%! I’m f@#$%!”

I had seen this through cracked doors, but this was the first time it was just him and me. Melinda was off at a meeting and he was really freaking out. So, I said “OK Brian, let’s just try and listen to some of this,” and he said “OK. OK. OK.”

We made it through maybe three songs and in the middle of the song he hurled the lyric sheet all the way across the room and screamed, “AHHHHHHH!!!” Lindsay, it was scary. I mean really scary. I ran down to the housekeeper who was familiar with this stuff happening. She knew it was for real and he was begging her to take him to the hospital and we are still trying to call Melinda. I didn’t know what to do and tried to be a calming force. At one point I heard him yelling to me from the other room “Darian! Darian! They are trying to kill me! They are trying to kill me!”

I thought, “maybe until Melinda gets home, I can just sit with him and talk.” He was asking me all sorts of questions and he was just scared. He’d say, “Have you ever dropped acid? Do you take drugs? How do you deal with that?” He’d describe this feeling in his chest that he can’t get rid of. Man, that was really scary. And then we had to start rehearsing within the next week with the band, mainly the vocalists. That is some of what you see in the film.

I found out later that that incident was part of his seasonal depression, especially now that he is the last Wilson [of his generation] standing. His mom, dad, brothers are all gone. There was that and then there was the reality that we had to do SMiLE for real. There was a concert date set and we have to do this. All that stuff that happened with Van Dyke in the fall when he was in the moment and it was cool and he was happy, well that was gone. It was now time to do this and it was rough. He’d just sit there and it was like we were working without a head. The head was not attached to the body.
”


—

Darian Sahanaja recounting a Smile rehearsal, 2004



Source: crutchfield.com

I've read that before, but every time I see it...it just destroys me.

Brian Wilson has brought so much joy into my life, knowing that he suffers like that...it's just too much

And you can say what you will about Melinda and Darian, but I think that the people surrounding Brian these days love him, and that we'll probably never know how much they've really done for him.

Whether or not BWPS represents a finished Smile, I don't care. If releasing it helped Brian, if it gave him one less thing to be anxious about, if it helped him in anyway to understand how much people love and admire him then I'm glad that it was done. I just wish Brian Wilson was happy honestly.

I'll second that.

For some reason that picture really gets me. I know you probably did it for laughs, Spil, but it IS kinda poignant to me. It's crazy to me that this guy really is the same Brian Wilson who did Pet Sounds, "Surf's Up", "Please Let Me Wonder", etc. I know it sounds stupid but I guess sometimes I consider today's Brian to be a different entity than the guy from the '60s. But he's still here, and I think that's fucking great. I just hope he has found happiness in one way or another.


Honestly, I don't know if it really made that much difference that he finished SMiLE, and one does have to wonder if it was worth the pain that he obviously went through while putting together BWPS. However, it probably is good for him that he no longer has to answer interview questions about if it's ever gonna come out, why not, etc.

However, I do think that reuniting with The Beach Boys and putting out a great new album has helped him. He really seems happy with the guys, and it doesn't seem like he's been complaining about writer's block like it seemed he was for a while there.

God damn.

 :police:

Yes, I was a fan then.  He did finish Smile, in the sense that he put together a version of the musical pieces started during the original Smile period.  Saying, "We finished it," doesn't mean that he finished the 1966 or 1967 Smile, as the album was understood in those time periods.  As someone else pointed out, even Smile in those two years was different.  He finished the music in the sense that he could not go back in time and give us any of those older versions.  That is why it's unfair and nonsensical to compare BWPS to any version of Smile.  BWPS is someone bringing closure to ideas they stopped pursuing long before and should be received as such.  People don't have the same extreme dislike for "Cool Cool Water" or the 1970s "Surf's Up," though these are no different in their ideological approach to the original Smile material than BWPS or Smiley Smile.  That is because listeners tend to view music through their own needs long before trying to understand the music on its own terms.  Most criticism of Brian's interpretations and voicing of his own ideas originates in the listener's need for Brian to share the listener's vision, rather than a genuine hearing of the music on its own terms.  Hence the feeling that "Surf's Up" had to come last on the album, for example, because it was Brian's masterpiece, it's the most epic track, or it sounds best.  But to whom are those feelings true?  Only that listener.  When Brian does something different with the Smile material, they feel he got it wrong.  It never occurs to them that he got it right and that perhaps they don't like Smile as much as they thought.  They like their version of Smile more than the creator's. 

It's kind of like how many music listeners misuse the term "filler," now.  "Filler" only means you are putting a track on a release because you need to fill space, as opposed to genuinely having something to say.  It doesn't mean the track is good or bad.  These days, when a listener hears a song they don't like, they refer to it as "filler," as if the composer has to share the same opinion of their work as that specific listener. 

I think we are over contemplating this. BWPS is Smile as completed in 2004; not Smile completed as it would have been in 1967. Pretty sure we can all agree on that.

In that case, what was it that he finished?


This is unclear. What is he finishing in this scenario?



Even though the vast majority of the album was made up of music that came from the Smile recording sessions?


What ideas are you referring to?


Yes, they are different in their ideological approach. Since CCW was not part of BWPS or the Disc 1 TSS we can put it aside. Surf's Up 1971 is The Beach Boys releasing as much of the 1966 version as they can, which is why they use the 1966 backing track and the 1966 demo. This is entirely different from the BWPS approach which was to re-record the song entirely. There's nothing wrong with that either, but calling it the same ideological approach is misleading.


You explain then how it's even possible to listen to music in this way.


I think that the listener is always going to impact what he or she is listening to. Always.


I think you are ignoring the valid point above made about why Good Vibrations came last on BWPS. But moreover, why are you elevating the author to this God-like status? Why can't the listener have their own reading of material that may not be what the artist intended? How does this kind of engagement with a piece of art suggest that one doesn't like the material? Do you have to be invested in the artist as having the final say over the interpretation of their creation before you can say that you like it?

A 72 Smile would have been Carl's version of Smile, presumably assembled with Brian's permission but with little participation.  Carl was at many of the sessions and was no doubt the best person to try and complete it, other than Brian of course.  Carl was already finishing Brian songs left in various stages of completion, and look at Cabinessence and Surf's Up.  I would suggest his finished versions of these songs surpass anything Brian has subsequently done with the Smile material.  So wouldn't you want a finished Worms from 72 with Al or Carl on lead vocals?  A Carl edited and finished Smile Vegetables? 

I was very disappointed this didn't happen - if Carl had enlisted Van Dyke to help, I think it may have happened.  Van convinced Brian he wasn't crazy and got him to finish Sail on Sailor, he could have pushed him to help Carl with Smile.  If it had been released in 72 it would be considered the legitimate and definitive Smile.

Yes. And Smile 1966 would have been different from Smile 1967. And Smile January 1967 would have been different from Smile April 1967.

I don't know about you guys, but a January 1967 Smile would have been totally terrible and so far from Brian's original vision if he had finished it in 1966. Like, what was he thinking still working on it, at that point? Don't get me started on the April 1967 version.

Smile.  The lack of clarity is kind of the point, though.  There is no one concrete album to really give the name Smile to.


Yes.  If the primary factor for judgment is to measure one rendition of a Smile section against all renditions of the same section, you are never going to like what you hear.


Any of them.  Anything in the music or lyrics, as well as ideas from interviews with Brian Wilson (the "teenage symphony..." quote, for example).


They are all reworkings, though.  My point is that many Beach Boys fans have issues with certain Smile-related recordings that they feel stray too far from whatever Smile is (as if they can define that clearly), while excusing other recordings, such as the ones I mentioned.  But, Brian has had no problem letting the music evolve, so why should fans take issue with that?  The ideology is that Smile isn't set in stone, that the songs aren't frozen and that the artist can change them over time.  There was no concept of "Cool Cool Water" when "All Day" was recorded, so why is that okay while fake harpsichords or an old voice or some other factor make BWPS inferior?


Imagination.  Put on BWPS and listen as if it was totally new music released in 2004.  Forget all the baggage of Smile history.  What is the point of reading every article and interview on the subject if none of those objective pieces of trivia help you hear the music on its own terms anyway?


They will.  They have to.  The listener's immediate point of view will always be their own, but that doesn't mean another perspective can't be imagined.  It doesn't mean an album can't be heard as just a collection of sounds, instead of hearing the album as something that must please you, must be your soundtrack, must fulfill some view of history that you have.


I don't think the author is god-like, but I don't think the audience is god-like either.  We can have our own readings, but there is a difference between saying something is inferior and not liking it.  "Inferior" implies that there must be one true version, one true answer.  As you pointed out with Brian's, "We finished it," quote, "it" is undefined.  There is no one Smile, which is almost the point, after all these years.  It's why BWPS is great, why TSS is great, and why Cam Mott's Smiley-Smile-as-Smile theory is so great.

"Good Vibrations" as the best ending to a live rendition of the Smile music isn't an incorrect reading, and I think John Stone could make a great argument for that.  But can anyone say that's why it was chosen?  Is there a reason to disbelieve that it's not the best ending to the album, specifically an album with many lyrics about couples and raising children, co-written by a man whose obsession with women has been well-documented, and who returns time and again to love songs far more than he does songs about the wild west or colonialism?  I used to think it was a weak ending, too, but then I realized that it was easy to be disappointed with "Good Vibrations" as an ending because the climax to this mystery (the Smile sequence, as if there was just one) was the one piece I already knew in a completed form.  Once I let go of that, I realized that I couldn't pick a better ending.  Sure, I could argue alternatives--"Surf's Up" with its ending "Child..." refrain is tempting and similarly brings the album back to a romantic conclusion--but how could I say one was better?  I can only say I like one more than another, but that's due to my own reasons for liking the Smile music, not because of what Smile is or Brian wanted it to be.  And that's why I think comparing any live or recorded interpretation of Smile against others as if they're all striving to answer the same question is silly.  The arguments fall apart on their own, like when people dismiss Smiley Smile because they think Smile was Brian working at the cutting edge of music and Smiley was lazy--it wasn't.  Smile was of its time, a flower power album made by young, inexperienced kids preaching big concepts like peace and love, and making ornate studio music.  Smiley was more cutting edge, it doesn't sound like much else of that time.  And, really, none of these versions are trying to be another.  If they were, there would have been no need to record them in the first place.

.

I'm sorry but I think that the lack of clarity comes from you trying to make excuses for the quote "We finished it."


That's quite untrue. The best way we can compare any work of art is by comparison. Just because I think that Notes From Underground is the best book I've ever read, it doesn't mean that I don't like any other book just because I use that one book as a point of reference - nor does it mean that it's impossible for me to eventually read a book that's better than Notes From Underground.

And just to make myself clear: BWPS is one of my favourite albums.



So, in that sense, he was finishing the album he had in mind in 1966?


Not really. BWPS Surf's Up isn't a reworking. It's a re-recording which tries to note-perfectly capture the version from Surf's Up 1971 with a few new additions.


Then doesn't it follow that maybe the criticism is not the fact that it "strays too far from whatever Smile is" but maybe some other reason? Perhaps, maybe, the reasons offered in this thread that you have thus far ignored.


They don't.


Because some people think that synthesized instruments and inferior voices can make things sound...I don't know...worse? Is it so impossible to believe that people are criticizing the synthesized instruments because they are synthesized not because the instruments are not meeting up to some listener expectation of how Smile is supposed to sound?


Please tell me what hypnosis trick you used so that the existence of Smile was wiped entirely from your memory. And did you ever get these memories back or did you have to re-learn them all in the style of Eternal Sunshine?

  


It doesn't imply that at all.



I didn't point that out at all. I think what "it" was was very clearly implied by the Brian camp. The "it" that was finished was the Smile that he started in the 60s.


I agree.


Well, since you just said that you "could make a great argument for that" then, yes.


What's the difference between saying "one is better" and "I like one more than another." Do you really believe we have to put "In my opinion" in front of everything we say? I mean, isn't that implied?


It wasn't? Have you heard the other albums that were made in 1966? Christ, The Monkees first album was just released as Brian was recording Child is Father of the Man. When Brian was recording Surf's Up, the top songs in the chart were (aside from Good Vibrations) Reach Out I'll Be There (Four Tops), Semi-Detached Suburban Mr. James (Manfred Mann), Stop Stop Stop (The Hollies), Gimme Some Lovin' (Spencer Davis Group), Green Green Grass of Home (Tom Jones), Last Train to Clarksville (Monkees). These songs are great, but hardly the stuff of Surf's Up or Heroes and Villains or Cabin Essence. I mean, was there anything of this level being made at the time aside from maybe some of the songs on Revolver?

 
It is absolutely not a flower power album.

 
That's absurd. There were plenty of cutting edge albums that were never dismissed.


Well, when BWPS was recorded, I don't think there was much thought that the Smile Sessions would be put out so soon. This is probably why they tried to match the original recordings so closely. And in that regard, I'd say that I would disagree and say that they were trying to be like the original recordings when they recorded BWPS.

EDIT: OH NO.

I agree and disagree with some things you said, but I respect your opinion (imo). I still want to go to Brian Camp.

 :lol

I think at Brian camp, you just sit around the campfire all day singing Shortenin' Bread in five-part harmony.

@runnerzzz - I lol'd. Although the fact that you've never heard The Hollies' "Bus Stop" is a travesty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It75wQ0JypA

@runnersdialzero

(http://i.imgur.com/tFeX3.jpg)

 :lol :lol :lol

This is purty cool, and not in a "lol thanks for the link, but I don't give a sh*t and didn't really listen" sort of way - I genuinely like it. Thanks. ^_^

this thread is visually hard to read.

Runners, that was amazing but you made the thread visually hard to read, apparently.

I have amended teh post.

Well

I

liked it

teh

Way it was

!

Aww no, that post was awesome, Runners.  I hope someone at least got a screenshot of it haha.

I hate to bring this up, but wasn't there a compilation released in 73 or 74 that gathered "SMiLE/Smiley Smile" tracks together on one side to make a mini-Smile side? 

I'd love to see that

I wish I could remember where it came out and when but I know it was the early 70's. It was a typical hits compilation but to the best of my recollection, one side was:
1.Heroes & Villains (single)
2. Wonderful (Smiley Smile)
3. Our Prayer (20/20)
4. Cabinessence (20/20)
5. Surf's Up (Surf's Up) 

I look at BWPS in a similar fashion to PS live. He 'finished it' in the sense that he and Van Dyke added unfinished lyrics and the running order was put in place with help of Darian. Probably not how it would've been in 67 given that it was too long. But it is in a GREAT order and runs together smoothly. When using the TSS in nearly the same order, it is a master piece! Unfinished, but a master piece none the less. BWPS not quite due to the weekness of the lead vocals, and the backing tracks lacking some magic that the original recordings obtained. Notes are all correct, but it doesn't 'cry' as Danny Hutton mentioned.

As for a 1972 SMiLE, I would personally call it legit. Even if Carl was producing the added sections. Remember, SMiLE is a Beach Boys album, not a Brian solo album. Surfs Up 72 is a masterpiece. I don't care how or when it was finished. A great piece of art was abandoned by Brian and finished by his brothers at a time when they were in top form. I'm sure it would have worked similarly to Sail On Sailor, where Brian was very involved in the recording and perhaps tells Carl what to do over the phone. SMiLE 72 would have been very significant if Surfs Up is any indication.

Just outta curiosity, what is this word?  It keeps showing up in your posts, and google doesn't recognize it.






Just wondering.....

Good point - Surf's Up 71 is still the definitive version to my ears.

Same for me.

runnerz is a cat whose typing skills are not all that dissimilar to the LOLCats.

For me, TSS is flawed by sticking to the BWPS order. The 'suites' works as a modern encapsulation of something that, to be fair has been given a lot of importance over the years, but I doubt that something that pretentious would have happened at the time, and having known most of the tracks as individual songs over the years, they feel somewhat shoehorned into that format. Especially Wind Chimes with all the pitch shifting at the end...I'll take the '93 mix over that any day.

A 72 finishing would have been pretty amazing, but still, some of the sounds of the era would have coloured the songs- like the synth bass on surfs up. If I had to pick a year outside of '67 that I'd like to hear a finished Smile from, I think I'd go for 1970. Sunflower/cool cool water sound so ace, it'd be incredible to hear say, child is father to the man finished to that level of production quality

I honestly am more excited about the idea of a  finished 71/72 SMiLE than a finished 67 SMiLE. The sound on Sunflower and Surf's Up is so amazing, some of my favorite production of all time. The 71 Surf's Up is so lush

google doesn't recognize it? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=teh

I wouldn't get your hopes up.

Interesting.....I never knew tihs....... ;D

Was much work really done on this in 72, or was it just contractual, and it didn't happen so they forfeited the money?

Anyone know what this is?

I think Carl & Stephen auditioned tapes, made a lot of copies (lucky they did - if they hadn't, the tapes might be worse off), but not much construction or sequencing, if indeed any at all, got done. I believe they really wanted to release Smile then (announcing it at gigs, etc), but then they also wanted Brian onboard and he didn't want to do it.

i was speaking purely in terms of FANtasy

That's a very good comparison.


I agree.

How do you define that "original vision"? At what point was that "original vision" left? Does it include "Look"? Or was that recorded before the "original vision"?

January version, well, that might have included Rock me Henry, so... er... Give me BWPS.

Was just joshin' ^_^ and thanks for partially proving what I was going for.

In 2012, Smile is whatever you want it to be, really. "Authentic" mix, inauthentic mix, stereo mix, mono mix, duophonic mix, BWPS, TSS, excluding "Look", including "Cool Cool Water", whatevz.

However it is not nor was it ever "SMiLE". ^_^

Sound like the Capitol Years box set.  Wikipedia refers to a CD edition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Capitol_Years_%28The_Beach_Boys_album%29 but I have a vinyl copy and looking online, it appears to be from 1980 (I can't check it properly as my copy is on the other side of the world).   The first side of disc 5 runs thusly:

1. Good Vibrations
2. Wind Chimes
3. Cabinessence
4. Vegetables
5. Wonderful
6. Our Prayer
7. Heroes And Villains

All the standard album versions (though I believe Cabinessence is collapsed to mono).  I'm sure the booklet explicitly states that it's an attempt to reproduce a Smile listening experience.

lol thanks! Looks like they kinda failed with the "experience" though! haha

Interesting that the order is roughly close to the reverse order of those songs' appearances on BWPS and TSS.

SJS - you are my new favorite smiley smiler. I agree with your post 1000% and I truly admire your bravery in speaking truth to power (the truth being that BWPS is NOT a masterpiece by any stretch of the imagination and the power being the herd menatality of brianistas who seem to think that BWPS is the greatest album ever made). Glad to know that there are BB fanatics out there who feel the same way I do about BWPS. Smile WITH the BEACH BOYS is the only way it should ever be heard on record, IMO of course.

If BWPS offends you so much, you can simply choose to     not     listen    to    it.   I think it's great that we have so many different forms of SMiLE to enjoy.  The real actual '66/'67 SMiLE never actually happened and never will.   I think that some people need to get over it and enjoy what we have.  End of story....

Btw, IMO, BWPS is not perfect in any way, but it is important.  Without it, things would have gone down quite differently.  Think about that.

No version of Smile is perfect. I'm not sure what's so offensive about Brian finishing Brian's work, but hay.

Is there any other album like SMiLE? Unfinished, but fans are able to make a multitude of versions with boots, etc for years? I'm not an expert on many bands, but I kind of doubt anything has taken on a life as this! 

A lot of other bands have unfinished albums along these lines, but I can't think of any on the same scale as Smile. Still a fair amount of mystery surrounding what would have gone where and the real intent of some of the pieces, and I don't think we'll ever really know some of this stuff.

Well, The Beatles and their Get Back -project is the closest thing, I guess... Hundreds of tapes, assemble your own. And what eventually came out was not what they originally intended. In fact, Get Back/Let It Be is like the polar opposite of Smile/Smiley Smile. They intended to make a warts and all -album, but ended up with quite a polished version.

If Brian would have participated Smile in the early seventies would have been cool because he and Dennis could still sing nearly the same. After that you have to loose something because their voices changed so much. Still the 2004 is a fun take on it but after the 2011 reissue I can't image playing the solo version again except on very rare occasions. The BD doc is pure garbage.

That's a bit more general, though - a lot of bands have had similar situations of unreleased albums coming out in altered form with the original intent being replaced by something totally different.

The thing that came to mind for me was Elliott Smith's From A Basement On The Hill album. He was working on it for about three years (amid some pretty gnarly drug addiction during the first two years) and died suddenly in late 2003 of what seemed to be a suicide. He spoke of it as a double album , seemed to hint at an "arc" approach (something about the songs slowly getting noisier and noisier) and possibly songs being linked together, and recorded well over 30 songs for it, most of which were fairly complete by the time of his death (one key piece is missing a lead vocal despite having a melody and lyrics written for it, sadly).

About a year after his death, a single disc album was put out featuring just 15 songs (one of which wasn't even his song or recording, by mistake) and much of the mixing and tracklist decisions were said to have been the work of his family and the people who were assembling the album instead of being his. A bunch of other songs from the sessions have leaked but have yet to see official release, and a number of them are kind of rambling instrumentals occasionally containing clear nods to other songs of his, and there are some other songs he played live in those years that are basically unaccounted for as far as studio recordings go (although he was known to be poor with keeping track of reels and documentation).

So yeah. There's a lot of mystery surrounding that album, but I wouldn't put it quite on par with Smile.

Ooh, nice to see there's another Elliott Smith fan on the board besides myself.  ;)

Another one right here too!

Big fan and acquaintance of Elliott.

And another!

Me too! Now there's a guy who probably would've appreciated The BBs/BW's more melancholy moments...

He did.

Oh, did he? I recall reading some interview with him where he mentions how he's never really liked The Beach Boys because he thought they were too upbeat or something. Guess he's not a fan of their early stuff!

He liked Pet Sounds.

Thanks! You got it!

http://cwas.hinah.com/interview/?id=11

In terms of a "lost" album that fans have pieced together from bootlegs and then a record label eventually cobbled together themselves, SMiLE's closest rival is Jimi Hendrix's "First Rays Of The New Morning Sun". At one time, this was a much more famous lost album than SMiLE was (SMiLE-mania really kicked off in the 80's). The songs that were to be on "First Rays..." were scattered across myriad posthumous compilations and bootlegs and an entire cult built up around the album, with fans trying to piece together what Jimi may have had in mind. Eventually an "official" version came out (much like TSS) but it's still hotly debated as to whether this was Jimi's vision for the album.

We're lucky we had Brian around at all in 2004 to revive SMiLE. Any bitching about it is juvenile nonsense.

For more info (and a bit of deja vu) check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Rays_of_the_New_Rising_Sun