'72 Smile

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Just thought of this... Had smile come out in '72... Would it be considered the "real deal" by everyone here?
I mean, if people say BWPS and TSS aren't "legit"...

[EgoHanger1966]

Just thought of this... Had smile come out in '72... Would it be considered the "real deal" by everyone here?
I mean, if people say BWPS and TSS aren't "legit"...

That entirely depends on what that record contained, sounded like, and who was participating.
And even then, you'd probably get most people on this board saying 'no'.

[lee]

It would be interesting to see how the album would have been put together in '72. I wonder if it would have had an impact considering H & V, GV, Vegetables, Wonderful, Wind Chimes, Our Prayer, Cabinessence and Surf's Up would have already been released in some form by that point.

[Camus]

I did a mix of Smile with this in mind when TSS first vame out.

[Chris Brown]

Assuming Brian was heavily involved (and in 1972 I'm not sure that would have happened), I think it would have more legitimacy than BWPS, but I'm of the mind that once 1967 passed, nothing can or could ever truly be the "real deal", Brian or no Brian. 

[Rocky Raccoon]

Assuming Brian was heavily involved (and in 1972 I'm not sure that would have happened), I think it would have more legitimacy than BWPS, but I'm of the mind that once 1967 passed, nothing can or could ever truly be the "real deal", Brian or no Brian. 

What keeps Brian's Smile from being legitimate?  Whether it has the Beach Boys on it or not, Smile was Brian's project from beginning to end.  I think that makes any Smile with involvement from Brian the "real deal."

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Just thought of this... Had smile come out in '72... Would it be considered the "real deal" by everyone here?
I mean, if people say BWPS and TSS aren't "legit"...

What do you mean by legit?

[pixletwin]

BWPS is the completed work. It is legitimate in the eyes of everyone who matters. That does not mean it is a legitimate reproduction of what smile may have become in 1967 or 1971. But that does not mean it is not legitimate. That is like saying Back Home from 15 Big Ones is not legitimate because it was not a completed version from 1963.

This is a distinction I think it is important to be made when discussing smile.

[Reddiwhip]

Assuming Brian was heavily involved (and in 1972 I'm not sure that would have happened), I think it would have more legitimacy than BWPS, but I'm of the mind that once 1967 passed, nothing can or could ever truly be the "real deal", Brian or no Brian. 

What keeps Brian's Smile from being legitimate?  Whether it has the Beach Boys on it or not, Smile was Brian's project from beginning to end.  I think that makes any Smile with involvement from Brian the "real deal."

When Brian says that the 2004 BWPS was "more uplifting, much happier, more progressive," there are a number of us who pause and wonder what the real concept behind Smile really is.  Is it childhood and youth like Brian Wilson says today, or is it something deeper and heavier, like coming close to God?  Is Roll Plymouth Rock a song about Hawaii and Plymouth Rock or is it about how the principles of cooperation that the original Pilgrims and Natives exemplified were abandoned by future generations?  There is a whole heaping of remorse and repentance on Smile, as well as the happy stuff.  BWPS gives us great ideas about Smile, but does it speak the concepts that gave birth to it?  Pet Sounds has enough about lost innocence and growing up.  Smile is something bigger and more spiritual.  I don't catch that same spirit when I listen to BWPS, though I love to hear Brian sing and play music he had distanced himself from for so many years.  There's redemption there too.

[runnersdialzero]

BWPS is the completed work. It is legitimate in the eyes of everyone who matters. That does not mean it is a legitimate reproduction of what smile may have become in 1967 or 1971. But that does not mean it is not legitimate. That is like saying Back Home from 15 Big Ones is not legitimate because it was not a completed version from 1963.

This is a distinction I think it is important to be made when discussing smile.

Troof.

Also, if Brian had been the main creative force behind it (help from others would have been fine, obviously), then absolutely. It wouldn't have been the same as a '67 version, but if it just would have taken a few more years to complete, what's the problem?

A Carl/Desper finishing of it in '72 would have been extremely cool, but the authenticity would have been more questionable. That's not to discredit Carl etc. it's just that it was Brian's baby with the band assisting in its sound and style. Shift that balance and ehhh.

[GoodToMyBaby]

One could argue that a 72 release of Smile nullify this sort of discussion.  We wouldn't know the difference.

[EgoHanger1966]

One could argue that a 72 release of Smile nullify this sort of discussion.  We wouldn't know the difference.

In 1972, there already was a SMiLE myth/mystery thing going on. Of course we would know the difference.
If people are looking for "The" SMiLE, it will never exist because Brian Wilson couldn't/wouldn't/whatever finish it in 1967.
We are lucky to have numerous different titles, editions, packagings, sequences to choose from. But none of them is the SMiLE that Brian set out to make in the mid-60s.

[Sheriff John Stone]

BWPS is the completed work.

BWPS was completed so they could play it live. I believe they were running out of ideas to keep Brian's live act alive. It was then recorded to make money.

[Rocky Raccoon]

BWPS is the completed work.

BWPS was completed so they could play it live. I believe they were running out of ideas to keep Brian's live act alive. It was then recorded to make money.

Well that's a cynical way of looking at it.  I'm sure they wanted to make money but that doesn't mean there wasn't any artistic integrity in it.  I certainly think there was.  It's not like Brian was forced to do it against his will.  He was asked to do it, he agreed to do it, and he did it.  He did it with a lot of help but he did it.  And we should be glad he did.

[Sheriff John Stone]

BWPS is the completed work.

BWPS was completed so they could play it live. I believe they were running out of ideas to keep Brian's live act alive. It was then recorded to make money.

Well that's a cynical way of looking at it.  I'm sure they wanted to make money but that doesn't mean there wasn't any artistic integrity in it.  I certainly think there was.  It's not like Brian was forced to do it against his will.  He was asked to do it, he agreed to do it, and he did it.  He did it with a lot of help but he did it.  And we should be glad he did.

I respect your opinion.

[Rocky Raccoon]

BWPS is the completed work.

BWPS was completed so they could play it live. I believe they were running out of ideas to keep Brian's live act alive. It was then recorded to make money.

Well that's a cynical way of looking at it.  I'm sure they wanted to make money but that doesn't mean there wasn't any artistic integrity in it.  I certainly think there was.  It's not like Brian was forced to do it against his will.  He was asked to do it, he agreed to do it, and he did it.  He did it with a lot of help but he did it.  And we should be glad he did.

I respect your opinion.

Would you have preferred if Brian left Smile alone rather than finish it?  Whatever happened behind the scenes, you can't deny that it sounds great.

[runnersdialzero]

Believe it or not, it seems a fair amount of people would have rather not seen it happen. I know it sounds odd, but yeah.

[Sheriff John Stone]

BWPS is the completed work.

BWPS was completed so they could play it live. I believe they were running out of ideas to keep Brian's live act alive. It was then recorded to make money.

Well that's a cynical way of looking at it.  I'm sure they wanted to make money but that doesn't mean there wasn't any artistic integrity in it.  I certainly think there was.  It's not like Brian was forced to do it against his will.  He was asked to do it, he agreed to do it, and he did it.  He did it with a lot of help but he did it.  And we should be glad he did.

I respect your opinion.

Would you have preferred if Brian left Smile alone rather than finish it?  Whatever happened behind the scenes, you can't deny that it sounds great.

I wish Brian would have left BWPS as a live performance. He/they did an incredible job with it in a concert setting.

To re-record the SMiLE songs, call it finished, and release it as such is a disgrace and a fraud. But that's a long story.

I do deny that it sounds great. While there are some parts of it that are good, especially parts of the second movement, I do not enjoy listening to it. Actually, I hardly ever listen to it.

I didn't preface each sentence with "In my opinion". It's understood.

[runnersdialzero]

It's Brian's work to do with as he pleases. Like it or not, that's the truth. There's no fraud involved - that goes out the window the second you see the full album title.

[Rocky Raccoon]

It's Brian's work to do with as he pleases. Like it or not, that's the truth. There's no fraud involved - that goes out the window the second you see the full album title.

Agreed.  Like I said, the album is Brian's work.  He can do whatever the hell he wants with it.  And what he did with it, I'm happy with.  And if anybody wasn't happy with it, I think last year's release more than makes up for it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian's "right to do with it whatever he wants to" isn't the issue. It's WHAT HE DID WITH IT that I have problems with. But, some don't and I'm glad they enjoy it.

[Generation42]

Similar to the OP, for the fans who were around in 1988 (with many more years and many more changes in the band since 1972), were you looking at the possibility of a release as the band's finished, wholly-realized vision for the album, or more of an archival release meant to get the material out and generate some buzz for the group?  What do you think it would have meant to you, had you held that LP/cassette in your hands?

My only real issue with BWPS being considered the "legit" version, if you will, is that it's just that - Brian Wilson's SMiLE, and to me, Smile is a Beach Boys project.  If, through whichever impossible means, the Beach Boys were on that album in 2004, I would view it as authoritative, even if the 1966/67 tapes would likely still contain my preferred take on the material.  Though I greatly enjoy BBWPS, as it stands, it's TSS for me.  Does that make any sense?

[runnersdialzero]

Brian's "right to do with it whatever he wants to" isn't the issue. It's WHAT HE DID WITH IT that I have problems with. But, some don't and I'm glad they enjoy it.

That's totally fair. I am wondering what he did with it tht you feel he should have done differently, though - not to argue against it, just curious to hear why.

[grillo]

Similar to the OP, for the fans who were around in 1988 (with many more years and many more changes in the band since 1972), were you looking at the possibility of a release as the band's finished, wholly-realized vision for the album, or more of an archival release meant to get the material out and generate some buzz for the group?  What do you think it would have meant to you, had you held that LP/cassette in your hands?

I imagined it would have been something like the Three album/2 cd Vigotone stuff that came out shortly after that...In other words I pictured all the usual songs, plus Can't Wait Too Long on 1 cd and maybe some alternates and sessions on another cd, but really I think I expected one cd...and i would have been psyched. I was in High School and I remember a guy who just thought the Beatles were the best and having some kind of official SMiLe cd would have helped my case (or a Pet Sounds cd for that matter).

[Andrew G. Doe]

BWPS is a Smile, just as CD1 of TSS is a Smile... but neither of them are THE Smile. No such thing ever existed beond the confines of Brian's imagination.