When Mitt Romney becomes president.... *FLUX THREAD!*

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It's safe to say who won and lost the debate last night. The establishment won and the sheeple lost.

Whatever side we decide to be on here with our imaginary left/right bullshit: TheRealBeachBoy is correct......

[guitarfool2002]

It's safe to say who won and lost the debate last night. The establishment won and the sheeple lost.

Whatever side we decide to be on here with our imaginary left/right bullsh*t: TheRealBeachBoy is correct......

And what is imaginary about hearing them out and deciding which "side" you agree with more? The issues cannot be homogenized to the point where there is absolutely no difference in theory or philosophy, because there is. And at some point the bitter pill needs to be swallowed and the realization kick in that Ron Paul, or the Green Party, or the Libertarian Party, or whatever else is out there did not make enough of an impact in this election to change anything from the status quo two-party setup, and perhaps new strategies need to be developed within those camps to be more successful than they were this year. Because at this point, again, it is what it is and the option is always there to return the same guy to power for another 4 years or replace him. Or, simply not vote. The hard truth is that we're still stuck in the two-party system, and so far challenges to that (and the challengers to that) have failed to convince enough voters to vote Paul, Johnson, LaRouche, Nader, etc.

I'd support that kind of change, but there needs to be more popular support and a better candidate than what I've witnessed in the past 20 years. Even if the messages are dead-on accurate and ones I agree with, often the candidate falls short of what I'd consider a good choice, personally.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well, we could try changing the fact that one has to be wealthy enough to buy their way onto the airwaves (or be willing to be bought into corporate pockets)  and into the game in order to stand a chance. But how do we do that? It will take thinking beyond the two party system: hard thinking. Yes, we are stuck in the two party system for the moment, but this is like saying let's not worry about fixing the plane because we're still trapped in the plane and it's going down. I know this will be dismissed and a long sermon on political science will follow(and this is what's been irritating me with this thread: the smug dismissal of other's ideas) , but one has to be able to think outside the present parameters or there will be no solutions....

BTW, what's with the single candidate idea anyway? Are we so insecure as a people that we need to stuff one guy into a suit and deify him? Why not create a third (or multiple parties) party and run IT?

[Jason]

In other news...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoodhill/2012/08/15/general-motors-is-headed-for-bankruptcy-again/print/

Good old GOVERNMENT MOTORS!

[Dunderhead]

In other news...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoodhill/2012/08/15/general-motors-is-headed-for-bankruptcy-again/print/

Good old GOVERNMENT MOTORS!

The US auto industry is an anachronism, as long as we bail them out we will never be competitive. The only thing keeping GM alive is its' brand, which is so recognizable that they can easily scare the public into conflating their survival with the general economic well being.

Goethe warned about all this long ago, which character in Faust advocates for fiat money? None other than Mephistopheles of course. 

[Jason]

Obama's trying to nationalize the auto industry. And knowing how stupid his supporters are they'll go for it.

[Dunderhead]

Did anybody ever watch that HBO movie "Too Big Too Fail"? I think that's a perfect dramatization of the level of incompetence and arrogance we're dealing with. I think some people assume that these guys are more in control and intelligent than they really are, that they're part of some New World Order conspiracy or something, but I think the HBO movie got it right in how stupid they all were.

[Heysaboda]

Where can I get me one of those "binders full of women" that Romney was talking about?  I gotta get me one of those!!

 

[hypehat]

Saw on the beeb this morning that the initial feeling is that Comrade Obama won the debate last night. You're all going to tell me otherwise, aren't you?  




So I'm watching it now and By Satan, is Mitt Romney a charmless swine. Outside of his policy. He's also getting SO PISSY, like a dude claiming technical fouls at a football game in the park.

Oh god, Mitt's 'glass ceiling' answer is ABSOLUTELY CRINGEY. Barack is running rings around him on this one, but then, I'm not surprised Mitt is being played on women's issues.

[Dunderhead]

I don't really get what constitutes winning and losing in these debates besides the arbitrary opinions of some focus group. These aren't 'debates' in any traditional sense, they're beauty pageants without a swimsuit portion. If you dislike Mitt Romney you'll naturally prefer whatever Obama does or says, if you dislike Obama you'll allow yourself to believe that Mitt Romney won.

I think it's pretty comical how before the first debate many media outlets were, with a straight face, 'predicting' the complete collapse of Romney's entire campaign. It's sort of embarrassing that anyone, Republican or Democrat, allows themselves to become invested in this sad little game.

I see Obama's ads on television constantly, and I don't even typically watch more than an hour or so of tv a day. He runs an ad, sometimes two pretty much every commercial break. "Obama wants millionaires to pay a little extra so that we can invest in our future, clean energy, infrastructure, the future!. Oh golly gee wiz Mr. President. Gimmie a break. The government purposefully hampers the development of renewable energy, Thorium for example was never really given a chance because the Department of Energy ended support for the technology for purely political reasons.

All the government does is hold our country back, the debt is going to go up, the deficit is going to go up, and more regulations will be put on the books regardless of who is elected. The President is just America's mascot, he's completely whipped by the major special interest groups. Our whole country is basically just on autopilot and that's not going to change until the money runs out.

[hypehat]

Come on, man, your nihilism on the subject (whilst not entirely baseless) doesn't mean the entire thing is void and beneath you.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well, he is exactly right about how people look at these things..... The government haters hate Obama and the corporation haters hate Romney even though both guys are really on the same team.... Then again, wasn't this second debate held in front of a huge group of undecided voters? And how come it's those undecided folk who scare me the most?

[Jason]

Hey, I'm a government hater and I hate both of them!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And you also love Brian AND Mike

[Jason]

Brianistas still can't wrap their heads around it.

[18thofMay]

As an Australian and not having any political allegiance to any one Party. I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone could vote for Mitt Romney.
Sorry if that offends people.

[Jason]

As an Australian and not having any political allegiance to any one Party. I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone could vote for Mitt Romney.
Sorry if that offends people.

I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone could vote for Obamney. Seriously...other than little superficial things like race, height, weight, and that little (D) or (R) after their names...their policies are exactly the same.

It's like choosing between Coca-Cola and Pepsi. And it's ironic that the Obamney campaign logos have the Coca-Cola and Pepsi colors!

[18thofMay]

As an Australian and not having any political allegiance to any one Party. I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone could vote for Mitt Romney.
Sorry if that offends people.

I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone could vote for Obamney. Seriously...other than little superficial things like race, height, weight, and that little (D) or (R) after their names...their policies are exactly the same.

Are there policies on Health Care the same? Romney's general lack of intelligence frightens me, and his thirst for war seems over the top! His position on marriage, abortion,Iraq, detention, Iran and taxation all seem in my opinion wrong.

[18thofMay]

As an Australian and not having any political allegiance to any one Party. I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone could vote for Mitt Romney.
Sorry if that offends people.

I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone could vote for Obamney. Seriously...other than little superficial things like race, height, weight, and that little (D) or (R) after their names...their policies are exactly the same.

It's like choosing between Coca-Cola and Pepsi. And it's ironic that the Obamney campaign logos have the Coca-Cola and Pepsi colors!

Or the colours of the country he is president of!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

As an Australian and not having any political allegiance to any one Party. I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone could vote for Mitt Romney.
Sorry if that offends people.

It's easy: they hate Obama enough to vote for anyone who's not him.

I'm trying to keep this out of the "we hate them both" camp, which I'm basically a member of.... But, it's really scary when you consider how many Bush goons are advising Romney's campaign and are likely to hold positions in a Romney cabinet (or under the cabinet). It's here where we're not being asked to vote for the lesser of two evils. These cats ARE pure evil. I'll take more four years of disappointment at a guy who's not been able to fix the result of 8 years of destructiveness in less than 4 over a dead eyed corporate predator and a bunch of guys who helped get us in our present mess.... (oh, wait, Obama has fixed some things: he ended the war in Iraq and is drawing down Afghanistan, but Republicans love war, so this doesn't count) It also seems backward that if one hates the current President: everything is all his fault and he has all the power in the world to turn things around, whereas if one like the current President: there's little he can do to fix anything.... I'd rather be done with the whole sham once and for all......

[Jason]

As an Australian and not having any political allegiance to any one Party. I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone could vote for Mitt Romney.
Sorry if that offends people.

I cannot for the life of me fathom how anyone could vote for Obamney. Seriously...other than little superficial things like race, height, weight, and that little (D) or (R) after their names...their policies are exactly the same.

Are there policies on Health Care the same? Romney's general lack of intelligence frightens me, and his thirst for war seems over the top! His position on marriage, abortion,Iraq, detention, Iran and taxation all seem in my opinion wrong.

Obamacare is basically a federal version of Romneycare, which was Romney's legislation when he was governor of Massachusetts. I disagree with Mittens on almost everything except for his tax policy...but even then he doesn't go far enough for me. He wants to freeze tax rates whereas Obama wants to increase them for those who earn over $250,000 a year (newsflash - most small businesses make that kind of money...so Obama is basically showing off just how much of a redistributor-in-chief he is and how much he really doesn't care about job creation or the middle class). I would revamp the tax code by repealing the income tax, the property tax, the estate tax, the capital gains tax, and would push to block any proposed federal sales tax; the latter would be my only compromise on the issue, but if government was sufficiently shrunk down and most of its services privatized or done away with, the need for even a federal sales tax would be negligible.

My position on marriage differs greatly from both Obama and Romney. I look at marriage as contracted terms determined and agreed upon by two or more individuals to be done outside of the government's jurisdiction and all the government should be required to do is enforce the contract. Even then I'd push to keep the government out of marriage as much as possible. Consenting individuals = NON-ISSUE.

I would push for abortion to be repealed at the federal level and left to the states to decide, like murder. Most states wouldn't be insane enough to prohibit the practice anyway. I personally am pro-choice.

His positions on indefinite detention are exactly the same as Obama. Enough said. As far as I'm concerned, everyone who voted for the NDAA FY 2012 and signed the resulting bill is guilty of treason and should be hanged.

Iran is no threat to anyone. They have stated time and time again that their nuclear program is for energy use. However, at the risk of sounding like an "antisemite" (where art thou, GreatUrduPoet?), Israeli politicians have been saying "Iran is two years/three years/five years away from a nuclear weapon" since 1992. It's just a matter of a criminal Zionist state ruled by warmongers that has the United States by the balls. Israel can do whatever they feel is in their national security interest; if that means turning Iran into a glass factory, that's on them...I just hope they're prepared for the response. Iran is no danger whatsoever to the United States. They can't make enough gasoline for themselves, their military equipment is dated American and Soviet-era Russian materiel, they have no possible way to shoot anything at anyone...but the reason the United States wants war with Iran is because Iran is selling Iranian oil for gold (or in the case of India, rupees). The reason "we found WMDs in Iraq" was because our former best friend and war criminal Saddam Hussein wanted to sell Iraqi oil for euros. The reason we sent terrorists into Libya to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi was because he wanted to sell Libyan oil for Libyan dinars, a gold-backed currency. Keep drinking that "Iran wants to eliminate Israel" Kool-Aid...I hope you can live with your conscience, you sons of bitches.

Besides...look at how many nuclear weapons surround Iran! All of these countries...Israel has nuclear weapons. Russia has nuclear weapons. France has nuclear weapons. The United Kingdom has nuclear weapons. Pakistan has nuclear weapons. The United States has nuclear weapons. China has nuclear weapons. North Korea has nuclear weapons. India has nuclear weapons. All of these countries! Most of those countries hate Iran. Iran may not be building a bomb...but can you seriously sit back and blame them if they possibly wanted to build one? The United States alone has two dozen bases AROUND Iran! But no...the country that has never attacked anyone, the country that has never built a nuclear weapon and has no desire to ever build one, the country that has had external forces in the United States, United Kingdom, and France holding them for ransom in exchange for resources...that evil, horrible nation is THE number-one threat to global security. Yeah, I can't wrap my head around that one, either.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Yeah, ya know, I really can't for the life of me figure out how the price of everything keeps going up, my pay's stagnant yet the amount that keeps being wretched from my paycheck keeps going up and up as does my insurance and I can't even go and get a cavity filled and it be covered by the insurance I've been paying out the ass for, for almost a decade at the same job!!!!

[Dunderhead]

We pretty much live in 1984 at this point, in an allegorical way. Saying that type of thing tends to sound cliche because "telescreens" and things like that don't actually exist, but when you actually think about it, that's exactly the world we live in.

The plot of 1984 is about a guy with vaguely anti-government sympathies who's approached by undercover law enforcement agencies and recruited into a phony resistance cell. At the end of the book he finds out that it was all a trap, that he was being manipulated the entire time into incriminating himself. He's then whisked away to a secret prison where's he's psychologically (and physically) tortured.

That type of stuff is real now, federal agents recruit suspected terrorists and give them bombs before swooping in and arresting them at the last moment. The federal government runs massive data centers that collect everything posted on the internet, cellphone conversations, bank records, everything, and computer programs troll through that information looking for suspicious patterns. Remote controlled drones have been so successful in the middle east that now they're being deployed as part of *domestic* surveillance programs. Innocent people are locked up and tortured in political prisons without ever receiving a trial. This stuff is all completely real, this is the way things actually are now. Every day Obama sits down and meets with his national security advisers and personally sanctions these things.

Obama is a war criminal. That's not hyperbole, that's not a political slur, it's the truth. He's not a nice man, he's not a pacifist, he's doing some very frightening things. And believe me, I don't think Romney would be any better. Things have gone completely off the rails and we're only a crisis or two away from absolute totalitarian rule. Our highlevel political leaders are very quietly preparing for some very ugly eventualities. Obama has been unceremoniously signing executive orders that give the president complete dictatorial control of the entire nation and everyone and everything in it during an "emergency".

We're just a few steps away.

[Dunderhead]

Yeah, ya know, I really can't for the life of me figure out how the price of everything keeps going up, my pay's stagnant yet the amount that keeps being wretched from my paycheck keeps going up and up as does my insurance and I can't even go and get a cavity filled and it be covered by the insurance I've been paying out the ass for, for almost a decade at the same job!!!!

Inflation is growth. That's the idea that rules our economy. We, as a nation, have a sort of unconscious habit of looking at a number like the DOW and equating it with either economic growth or stagnation don't we? As long as the number keeps going up we all perceive the economy as being strong. Stock prices, like all prices, can be inflated. The Federal Reserve creates an appearance or an illusion of growth by forcing the DOW higher. They create money on a computer and credit the major investment banks for hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars. The investment banks use that new money to speculate, they pump it into the stock market using computer algorithms that buy and sell the same stocks thousands of times a second. As long as the Federal Reserve keeps putting money into this system, stock prices keep inflating, and everyone's happy.

The assumption that The Federal Reserve works under is that if they create the illusion of growth and prosperity, consumers will relax a little bit, feel a little bit better about the state of things, and start spending money. When there are stock crashes it's because the hot air is being let out of the balloon. All that excess money keeping stock prices high is rapidly liquidated. It's a natural response of the free market. When stock prices are *too* high, when they no longer reflect economic reality, there has to be a deleverging. It's like getting a fever when you're sick, a fever can be dangerous, and it's never pleasant to get one, but it's part of your bodies natural defense mechanism.

Inflation is what the government uses to create economic prosperty, the government actively works to inflate the price of stocks and realestate and commodities. That's in fact the entire idea of Keynesianism, but our whole economy has become dangerously dependent on that type of activity. Accounting for inflation our GDP is actually lower right now than it was in 2008. Growth is no longer occurring and our political leaders are desperate to hide that fact by inflating prices and fudging the most publicly watched economic metrics.

This type of thing is widespread over the whole world. China burns millions of tons of coal in power plants that aren't hooked up to anything whatsoever. They do it just to maintain the illusion of growth. This is exactly what people mean when they say that markets are more efficient at allocating goods and services than central planners. China builds entire cities that noone can even afford to live in.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It does me no good whatsoever to get a sermon on everything I already learned in economics classes in college. This convo keeps trying to pull away from "well, this is just how the system works" but to no avail. If the system is just doing what it does, does this make it right? A virus just does what it does so why try and eradicate the nasty ones or cure yourself when infected?

I like you better, Klingsor when you're talking about awful dates