When Mitt Romney becomes president.... *FLUX THREAD!*

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I agree with the vast majority of posts made by The Real Beach Boy.

It's all one big guilt trip, we aren't allowed to cut any money for any program that benefits anyone because doing so would be "cruel". That's your own personal moral judgement, and I hate when democrats try and prop it up as if it represented an absolutely justified position.
If I want to cut social security or government funded sex education, then I am evil because people would suffer. But why is that my problem?

You're ultimately living in a society which is set up so that income and weath are unequally distributed towards the upper echelons of concentrated wealth and power. In this society, anybody who does not belong to the ownership class (the vast majority) are always and already at a disadvantage. Given the inherent unfairness of this system, taxation works to make things slightly fairer. If one really cares about solving problems, they wouldn't look at taxation as the crux of the problem but rather the construction of the society as a whole that makes social welfare necessary. And unfortunately, in the United States, social welfare is far more necessary than it is in other countries because it is structurally built to not care about people - to put profits for the ownership class ahead of people's lives and then to make people think that putting profits ahead of people's lives is ultimately best for people's lives despite the fact that that entirely flies in the face of reality. This incidentally is everyone's problem - not just your own though if the long-running state-oriented system in the United States has worked to your advantage than it is certainly your obligation to not deny others from benefiting from the same system.

[Mikie]

I have no right to tell you to pay for my condoms or my health care.

This is where we differ - I don't see it that way at all. Moreover, I'm happy to pay the pittance it costs to put easily accessible condoms in schools because the alternative is a bunch of teenagers getting pregnant, or no teenagers having sex because condoms and the pill are expensive (that's your beloved private sector for you). And lets face it, if I wasn't able to have sex when I was that age, it wouldn't have been much of a life at all. To not have to worry about forking out £6 for condoms when I could get them free from my school, if anything happened my girl could get the pill for free down the chemist was rather.... liberating.   I mean, there's a theoretical 'liberty' which you can feel pissed off about paying for someone's medical bills which could feel rather hollow if you suddenly got cancer and couldn't afford the bills.

The thing is, do you seriously not care if someone couldn't afford treatment for something that wasn't their fault? Like, picking one example out of nowhere, did Levon Helm having to throw concerts and parties to fund his treatment for throat cancer not strike you as a little skew-whiff?

I think we've argued about taxation before, TRBB. The way I see it, everyone has an obligation to pay taxes to provide a certain standard of life in a country. Your philosophy seems to boil down to 'I don't care about others and they shouldn't care about me'.  But then I'm a leftist hippie backpedalling communist, so we'll probably never agree  

I find abortion personally repugnant, but I am 100% willing to let some of my tax dollars support abortions and contraceptives for those people who believe that they are entitled to free healthcare and reproductive control at the expense of society/the taxpayers. At least that way I am reassured that we are 'thinning the herd' of these non-productive leeches in the long run...since hopefully our present day 'takers' will not be reproducing quite as much. The ultimate goal here being to decrease the size of the next generation of spoiled, non-productive gimmie-gimmies who would further siphon off future tax revenues that could be used for far nobler purposes. I would consider this expense a wise investment in our ultimate success as a sovereign nation.

I wasn't talking to you.

If this isn't an open forum, use private messaging comrade.

    

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well said, RocknRoll, but the problem is not people's political beliefs. It's rather transparent to think one's basic selfish, narcissistic, socially ignorant, mean spirited nature, is not taken at face value even while under the guise of political discussion. At some point it's either nature or nurture and one's political beliefs ultimately speak to their character as people. Thankfully in this country, selfish, angry, mean spirited folk are allowed to thrive off the work and sacrifices of others (and their own, yes) just as more well meaning folk can too. It's useless. People just really LOVE to be conservatives and that simple word means more to them than the details. Same for the other side too. But I'll always throw in with the side that actually cares about people..... I mean, do I REALLY want the guy flipping my burgers or flying my plane to be working 7 jobs just to stay off the street and not getting any sleep for weeks on end? ......... Social issues affect us all no matter how we might try and deny it.

[hypehat]

I have no right to tell you to pay for my condoms or my health care.

This is where we differ - I don't see it that way at all. Moreover, I'm happy to pay the pittance it costs to put easily accessible condoms in schools because the alternative is a bunch of teenagers getting pregnant, or no teenagers having sex because condoms and the pill are expensive (that's your beloved private sector for you). And lets face it, if I wasn't able to have sex when I was that age, it wouldn't have been much of a life at all. To not have to worry about forking out £6 for condoms when I could get them free from my school, if anything happened my girl could get the pill for free down the chemist was rather.... liberating.  I mean, there's a theoretical 'liberty' which you can feel pissed off about paying for someone's medical bills which could feel rather hollow if you suddenly got cancer and couldn't afford the bills.

The thing is, do you seriously not care if someone couldn't afford treatment for something that wasn't their fault? Like, picking one example out of nowhere, did Levon Helm having to throw concerts and parties to fund his treatment for throat cancer not strike you as a little skew-whiff?

I think we've argued about taxation before, TRBB. The way I see it, everyone has an obligation to pay taxes to provide a certain standard of life in a country. Your philosophy seems to boil down to 'I don't care about others and they shouldn't care about me'.  But then I'm a leftist hippie backpedalling communist, so we'll probably never agree 

I find abortion personally repugnant, but I am 100% willing to let some of my tax dollars support abortions and contraceptives for those people who believe that they are entitled to free healthcare and reproductive control at the expense of society/the taxpayers. At least that way I am reassured that we are 'thinning the herd' of these non-productive leeches in the long run...since hopefully our present day 'takers' will not be reproducing quite as much. The ultimate goal here being to decrease the size of the next generation of spoiled, non-productive gimmie-gimmies who would further siphon off future tax revenues that could be used for far nobler purposes. I would consider this expense a wise investment in our ultimate success as a sovereign nation.

I wasn't talking to you.

If this isn't an open forum, use private messaging comrade.

    

I am zinged, Mikie. Wretched Poet, adieu.
You that look pale and tremble at this chance,
that are but mutes and audience to this act,
had I but time - as this fell sergeant, Zing,
is strict in his arrest - O, I could tell you -
But let it be. Mikie, I am zinged,
Thou livest. Report me and my cause aright
to the unsatisfied.

[SMiLE Brian]

I have no right to tell you to pay for my condoms or my health care.

This is where we differ - I don't see it that way at all. Moreover, I'm happy to pay the pittance it costs to put easily accessible condoms in schools because the alternative is a bunch of teenagers getting pregnant, or no teenagers having sex because condoms and the pill are expensive (that's your beloved private sector for you). And lets face it, if I wasn't able to have sex when I was that age, it wouldn't have been much of a life at all. To not have to worry about forking out £6 for condoms when I could get them free from my school, if anything happened my girl could get the pill for free down the chemist was rather.... liberating.  I mean, there's a theoretical 'liberty' which you can feel pissed off about paying for someone's medical bills which could feel rather hollow if you suddenly got cancer and couldn't afford the bills.

The thing is, do you seriously not care if someone couldn't afford treatment for something that wasn't their fault? Like, picking one example out of nowhere, did Levon Helm having to throw concerts and parties to fund his treatment for throat cancer not strike you as a little skew-whiff?

I think we've argued about taxation before, TRBB. The way I see it, everyone has an obligation to pay taxes to provide a certain standard of life in a country. Your philosophy seems to boil down to 'I don't care about others and they shouldn't care about me'.  But then I'm a leftist hippie backpedalling communist, so we'll probably never agree 

I find abortion personally repugnant, but I am 100% willing to let some of my tax dollars support abortions and contraceptives for those people who believe that they are entitled to free healthcare and reproductive control at the expense of society/the taxpayers. At least that way I am reassured that we are 'thinning the herd' of these non-productive leeches in the long run...since hopefully our present day 'takers' will not be reproducing quite as much. The ultimate goal here being to decrease the size of the next generation of spoiled, non-productive gimmie-gimmies who would further siphon off future tax revenues that could be used for far nobler purposes. I would consider this expense a wise investment in our ultimate success as a sovereign nation.

I wasn't talking to you.

If this isn't an open forum, use private messaging comrade.

    

I am zinged, Mikie. Wretched Poet, adieu.
You that look pale and tremble at this chance,
that are but mutes and audience to this act,
had I but time - as this fell sergeant, Zing,
is strict in his arrest - O, I could tell you -
But let it be. Mikie, I am zinged,
Thou livest. Report me and my cause aright
to the unsatisfied.

Et tu, Brute?

[Heysaboda]

Forward To The Socialist Empire, Comrades!!!!

(joking)

 

PS.

The Electoral College map is dead set against Romney at this point.  He'd have a lot of ground to make up in 55 days.

Obama can lose Ohio, and still win.  If Romney loses Ohio, he's toast.

You read it here first!

[Mikie]

I am zinged, Mikie. Wretched Poet, adieu.
You that look pale and tremble at this chance,
that are but mutes and audience to this act,
had I but time - as this fell sergeant, Zing,
is strict in his arrest - O, I could tell you -
But let it be. Mikie, I am zinged,
Thou livest. Report me and my cause aright
to the unsatisfied.

Hypehat, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate. And whether you are a citizen of America or a citizen of the United Kingdom, ask of us the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.

Ask not what America can do for you — ask what you can do for America.

[hypehat]

I am zinged, Mikie. Wretched Poet, adieu.
You that look pale and tremble at this chance,
that are but mutes and audience to this act,
had I but time - as this fell sergeant, Zing,
is strict in his arrest - O, I could tell you -
But let it be. Mikie, I am zinged,
Thou livest. Report me and my cause aright
to the unsatisfied.

Hypehat, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate. And whether you are a citizen of America or a citizen of the United Kingdom, ask of us the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.

Ask not what America can do for you — ask what you can do for America.

Good faith Mikie, this same young
sober-blooded boy doth not love me, nor a man cannot
make him laugh; but that's no marvel, he drinks no
wine. There's never none of these demure boys come
to any proof, for thin drink doth so over-cool their
blood, and making many fish meals, that they fall into a
kind of male green-sickness, and then when they
marry they get wenches. They are generally fools and
cowards - which some of us should be too, but for
inflammation. A good sherris-sack have a twofold
operation in it. It ascends me into the brain, dries me there
all the foolish and dull and cruddy vapours which
environ it, makes it apprehensive, quick, forgetive, full
of nimble, fiery, and delectable shapes, which
delivered o'er to the voice, the tongue, which is the
birth, becomes excellent wit. The second property of
your excellent sherris is the warming of the blood,
which before, cold and settled, left the liver white
and pale, which is the badge of pusillianimity and
cowardice; but the sherris warms it, and makes it
course from the inwards to the parts' extremes.
It illumineth the face, which, as a beacon, gives warning
to all the rest of this little kingdom, man, to arm, and then
the vital commoners, and the inland petty spirits, muster
me all to their captain, the heart; who, great and puffed up
in this retinue, doth any deed of courage;
and this valour comes of sherris.
So that skill in the weapon is nothing without sack, for that
it sets it a-work, and learning a mere hoard of gold kept by
a devil, til sack commences it and sets it in act and use.
Hereof comes it that Prince Harry is valiant; for the cold blood
he did naturally inherit of his father he hath lean, sterile and bare land
manured, husbanded and tilled, with excellent endeavour  of
drinking good and good store of fertile sherris, that he is become very
hot and valiant.
If I had a thousand sons, the first human principle I would teach them
should be to forswear thin potations,
and to addict themselves to sack.

[Mikie]

Some men see things as they are and ask, "Why?"   I dream things that never were and ask, "Why not?"

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Bobby Kennedy all the way!

I think the greatest sin mankind can do is to never ask why? or why not?

[Mikie]

Erik, it's actually George Bernard Shaw, but RFK liked to quote the best.  And that quote very much fit his ideology.

And another one he liked from Bob Frost:

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one less traveled by.  And that has made all the difference.

[hypehat]

Well, looks like my overquoting The Bard destroyed this thread. I knew that cup of coffee at 10pm was a bad idea. What next?

Although I do need to read me some Robert Frost....

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

OR it put the thread out of it's misery....... Therefore, a thanks might be in order

[Heysaboda]

As you well know I am not one for subtlety.

heh heh, you got that right!

Seriously, tho', I'm enjoying the discussion/rants by TRBB, Hypehat, and everyone.  Keep 'em coming!

[Heysaboda]

Why do I have to pay for someone else's abortion or birth control? I have no moral or legal obligation to do so. If you can't afford birth control, here's a tip. DON'T f***. And if you get pregnant from CONSENSUAL SEX and can't afford an abortion, live with the consequences or take out a loan to pay for it.

I'd argue that in cases of rape, incest, or medical necessity, and etc., a poor woman ought to have access to abortion, paid by The State.
Why ration health care?

I look at it this way:

If Romney and His Friends (the Kochs) ACTUALLY PAID THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES, the rest of us would be paying a LOT LESS, and The State would not be running a deficit.
We could afford the Public Payer option.

Hmmm!

[Heysaboda]

How did Mittens serve his country?  Bicycling in France, the little ponce.

He's an amiable doofus, a well meaning bumbler and a useful idiot for the Koch Brothers.

 Romney may be many things, but "bumbler" probably isn't one of them. Few if any "amiably bumble" their way to a quarter of a billion $ fortune.

With respect, of course, Romney has made billions, fired thousands, paid little in taxes, but his comments after the Egypt embassy riot show he's totally TOTALLY unfit to be POTUS.

[Heysaboda]

The debate can no longer be about whether or not the rich pay enough in taxes. Everyone rich and poor pays too much in taxes, period. Spending and taxation are completely out of control, debt is verging towards unstoppable exponential growth, and even with a 3 trillion dollar a year budget, none of it is doing anything to get us out of this depression. Our whole public spending paradigm just doesn't work anymore. Our current predicament is not anyone's fault but our own.

I'd argue, when the rich pay only 10% or 13% in taxes, less than I do by the way, then, EFF YES they are paying WAY TOO LITTLE!

Don't ya think?

[hypehat]

How did Mittens serve his country?  Bicycling in France, the little ponce.

He's an amiable doofus, a well meaning bumbler and a useful idiot for the Koch Brothers.

 Romney may be many things, but "bumbler" probably isn't one of them. Few if any "amiably bumble" their way to a quarter of a billion $ fortune.

With respect, of course, Romney has made billions, fired thousands, paid little in taxes, but his comments after the Egypt embassy riot show he's totally TOTALLY unfit to be POTUS.

Agreed. The man has no tact, sensitivity and seemingly no comprehension of the situation.

[guitarfool2002]

The debate can no longer be about whether or not the rich pay enough in taxes. Everyone rich and poor pays too much in taxes, period. Spending and taxation are completely out of control, debt is verging towards unstoppable exponential growth, and even with a 3 trillion dollar a year budget, none of it is doing anything to get us out of this depression. Our whole public spending paradigm just doesn't work anymore. Our current predicament is not anyone's fault but our own.

I'd argue, when the rich pay only 10% or 13% in taxes, less than I do by the way, then, EFF YES they are paying WAY TOO LITTLE!

Don't ya think?

Can I just ask what your reaction would be if someone were to suggest you personally are currently paying too little in federal income taxes and that your rate effective retroactively to cover 2012 will be 50% higher than what it is now? Would you accept someone else's rationale that you are being undertaxed compared to those around you in your area and would willingly pay more?

I'm talking income taxes, federal income taxes to be exact. But the above scenario is close to reality for many homeowners of all income levels having to deal with local property taxes and school taxes through assessed value of their home, who can see a board of assessments declare their tax rate too low and randomly increase your rate, and that usually leads to foreclosures and forced sales from people who may have lived in that home for decades.

So, what if?

[Awesoman]

I wonder what Obama thinks about the Beach Boys. I mean everybody has at least one favorite Beach Boys song, right??? Maybe his is "You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone"?

It's a safe bet that Obama has never even listened to the Beach Boys...

[Awesoman]

EDIT: Sorry for making this political but I just feel like I need to make my case whenever somebody puts down Obama.

It's not a put-down to state that he doesn't have much in common with the 'common man'. It's the truth.

Having said that, I have absolutely no use for Obama and I feel anyone who believes either of these empty suits running for President really have any idea how to fix this country's woes is dangerously naive.

The Beach Boys in their prime represented a time when "hope" and "change" could actually mean something.

Yes, I agree that neither candidate is proving worthy of my vote.  But I'm sick of listening to the Obama Kool-Aid drinkers ejaculate over a man so unworthy of praise.  Guess what?  His stance on gay marriage ain't gonna fix sh_t over our sinking economy.  But you know what will bury us even deeper?  His completely impractical universal health care plan.  

And while Romney may be as charismatic as sandpaper, I will admit I'd prefer him to win the election.  But it's kind of like rooting for getting kicked in the face over getting shot in the junk.  

[Alex]

I think I'll be voting for Jill Stein (who won the Green Party nomination over Rosanne Barr, of all people), even though I was holding out hope that Ralph Nader would make another run at the White House.

[Mikie]

Ralph Nader's a has-been.  He couldn't hold Obama's jock.  Hell, bring back Ross Perot.  If he wasn't so old, he'd give deep pockets Romoney a run for his money.

[GreatUrduPoet]

EDIT: Sorry for making this political but I just feel like I need to make my case whenever somebody puts down Obama.

It's not a put-down to state that he doesn't have much in common with the 'common man'. It's the truth.

Having said that, I have absolutely no use for Obama and I feel anyone who believes either of these empty suits running for President really have any idea how to fix this country's woes is dangerously naive.

The Beach Boys in their prime represented a time when "hope" and "change" could actually mean something.

Yes, I agree that neither candidate is proving worthy of my vote.  But I'm sick of listening to the Obama Kool-Aid drinkers ejaculate over a man so unworthy of praise.  Guess what?  His stance on gay marriage ain't gonna fix sh_t over our sinking economy.  But you know what will bury us even deeper?  His completely impractical universal health care plan.  

And while Romney may be as charismatic as sandpaper, I will admit I'd prefer him to win the election.  But it's kind of like rooting for getting kicked in the face over getting shot in the junk.  

I can't believe that anyone would give ANY credit at all to President Obama regarding his stance on gay marriage when he does not have
the courage or character to come out of the closet himself...rather than constantly pimping his own sham marriage to Michelle Robinson.

[hypehat]

Wow, you really some kind of genius. You opened my eyes. Really.