THE BEST Surf's Up revelation.

[Chris Brown]

Great discussion here - I think the premise in the OP is a stretch to say the least, but at the same time I definitely hear a bit of "Child" in the original "Surf's Up" coda on Brian's piano version, so I don't think you can completely discount the notion of the "Child" ending being in Brian's mind in 1966. 

Maybe moving "Child" into "Surf's Up" was Brian's first cannibalization on Smile (taking a part of one song and moving it into another, thereby essentially abandoning the former song).  The timing would fit - he hadn't worked on "Child" in a few months, and although it was on the handwritten track list from December, perhaps he had already decided that the song just wasn't working, and had the great idea to use the chorus as the ending to "Surf's Up."  It certainly wouldn't be the only time during Smile that this happened, as we see with "Heroes" in early 1967.

Another somewhat interrelated observation: I've always thought it was a bit odd that Carl was the one who thought to use "Child" for the coda in 1971, rather than Brian.  It just doesn't seem like something Carl would do on his own.  Perhaps Brian told Carl of his intention in 1966/67 and Carl remembered, or maybe it was even attempted during Smile but the tape has gone missing - either way, how else would Carl have known to do that?  Moreover, even if it was Carl's idea, upon hearing the "Child" ending in 1971 (when he burst into the studio to add his final touches), wouldn't Brian have wondered what the hell they were doing using "Child" in that way?  Seems to me that the idea must have existed in some fashion before the song was finished in 1971, which brings me back around to the notion that it was in Brian's mind in 1966.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Another somewhat interrelated observation: I've always thought it was a bit odd that Carl was the one who thought to use "Child" for the coda in 1971, rather than Brian.  It just doesn't seem like something Carl would do on his own.  Perhaps Brian told Carl of his intention in 1966/67 and Carl remembered, or maybe it was even attempted during Smile but the tape has gone missing - either way, how else would Carl have known to do that?  Moreover, even if it was Carl's idea, upon hearing the "Child" ending in 1971 (when he burst into the studio to add his final touches), wouldn't Brian have wondered what the hell they were doing using "Child" in that way?  Seems to me that the idea must have existed in some fashion before the song was finished in 1971, which brings me back around to the notion that it was in Brian's mind in 1966.

Carl was a creative guy. It was probably him who decided to incorporate Don't Worry Bill into Wonderful for the stage show, and also to include the little line from the Smiley version. It was probably also in his mind that Smile was going to be put out as an album in 1972, that he would have to do a lot of work on it. Putting the Child coda onto Surf's Up was probably a nice test run for a project that never actually happened.

[Bill Tobelman]

The idea of themes reappearing in SMiLE matches the Frank Holmes' artwork for the album. As Andrew G.Doe pointed out many of the visual images are "quoted" in other SMiLE images made by Frank.

The idea that the lyrics of "Surf's Up" have something to do with the "Song For Children" displays a similar relationship.

Musically, David Beard of ESQ made the case for the Rondo as being much the basis for SMILE.

What's cool about this is that there's thematic congruence on there levels---music, lyrics, and art.

[Bill Tobelman]

Sorry. Meant to say "three levels."

[hypehat]

No-one seems to have mentioned that Child Is The Father (or something near as makes no difference) also ended up in Dada/Cool Cool Water. There's a lot you could speculate about that, because... well what did he mean by inserting that chorus into that song? Was Child junked? Was it a reference? Brian wrote Dada supping milkshakes from a baby bottle, apparently and Child might have been pretty literal about it's title - the 'that's our baby' thing from the session is our only clue, hard to tell without lyrics.

And it ties into a lot of the age-old questions about what Dada was supposed to be. But if you take the Cool Cool Water version as indicative of where the full Dada session would have gone.....

[Andrew G. Doe]

The idea of themes reappearing in SMiLE matches the Frank Holmes' artwork for the album. As Andrew G.Doe pointed out many of the visual images are "quoted" in other SMiLE images made by Frank.

More than that, sundry elements from one illustration turn up in one or more other sketches. A fun way to pass an idle half hour is to catalog them. 

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

I sort of doubt that Mr. Wilson had gotten to the point that he had a good idea of sequencing and the existence of movements in Smile around 1967.  Perhaps he considered it as a possibility, but nobody involved in the project seems to have been aware of it.

Still, it's an interesting subject for two reasons: 1) I'd always been confused about the "Child is the Father of the Man" coda to "Surf's Up" on the eponymous album.  I think the song seems out of place on the album to begin with, but lyrically and melodically, the coda seems to come out of nowhere.  On Brian Wilson Presents Smile, however, because of the way that it's organized as part of the same movement as "Child is the Father of the Man," the coda doesn't seem to come out of the blue quite as much.  2) The sequencing on Brian Wilson Presents Smile sometimes works very well, but sometimes the attempt to create a flow between songs comes off as a bit forced.  The only movement I've ever found completely convincing is the second one.  That doesn't mean that he planned it as a movement, or that he planned to have the coda in the song, but the childhood connection already existed between the two songs even without the coda (the version of "Surf's Up" that he played on television ends with the lyric "a children's song"), so it wasn't too much of a stretch to connect them further.

I'd like to admit my ignorance on the subject of the lyrics of "Look"/"Song for Children."  Does anybody know whether these were written in 1966 or 2003/2004?  I know that the lyrics for "Do You Like Worms?" were written in 1966 but not originally recorded and I think that the lyrics for "In Blue Hawaii" were not written until the preparation for Brian Wilson Presents Smile, but I'm not sure about the other songs that appear as instrumentals in The Smile Sessions.

[Jim V.]

I sort of doubt that Mr. Wilson had gotten to the point that he had a good idea of sequencing and the existence of movements in Smile around 1967.  Perhaps he considered it as a possibility, but nobody involved in the project seems to have been aware of it.

Still, it's an interesting subject for two reasons: 1) I'd always been confused about the "Child is the Father of the Man" coda to "Surf's Up" on the eponymous album.  I think the song seems out of place on the album to begin with, but lyrically and melodically, the coda seems to come out of nowhere.  On Brian Wilson Presents Smile, however, because of the way that it's organized as part of the same movement as "Child is the Father of the Man," the coda doesn't seem to come out of the blue quite as much.  2) The sequencing on Brian Wilson Presents Smile sometimes works very well, but sometimes the attempt to create a flow between songs comes off as a bit forced.  The only movement I've ever found completely convincing is the second one.  That doesn't mean that he planned it as a movement, or that he planned to have the coda in the song, but the childhood connection already existed between the two songs even without the coda (the version of "Surf's Up" that he played on television ends with the lyric "a children's song"), so it wasn't too much of a stretch to connect them further.

I'd like to admit my ignorance on the subject of the lyrics of "Look"/"Song for Children."  Does anybody know whether these were written in 1966 or 2003/2004?  I know that the lyrics for "Do You Like Worms?" were written in 1966 but not originally recorded and I think that the lyrics for "In Blue Hawaii" were not written until the preparation for Brian Wilson Presents Smile, but I'm not sure about the other songs that appear as instrumentals in The Smile Sessions.

Yeah, I too doubt he was really gonna do the movements thing on SMiLE back in the '60s and I think the songs are all strong enough by far to stand on their own.

Now anyways, about which of the songs that some are not sure about the lyrics, well here's a pretty definitive take, in my opinion. All of lyrics for "Do You Like Worms" were done in the '60s; "Look"/"Song For Children" was done in the '00s; "Child Is Father Of The Man" had the chorus and possibly verse lyrics in the '60s, however the verse lyrics from BWPS are from the '00s; "Holidays" surprisingly actually had most of it's lyrics from the '60s, although I'm pretty sure the "pirate rap" came from more recently; and "In Blue Hawaii" had lyrics composed in the '00s, although one could say "Love To Say Dada" was "finished" as "Cool, Cool Water".

[Reddiwhip]

I sort of doubt that Mr. Wilson had gotten to the point that he had a good idea of sequencing and the existence of movements in Smile around 1967.  Perhaps he considered it as a possibility, but nobody involved in the project seems to have been aware of it.

Still, it's an interesting subject for two reasons: 1) I'd always been confused about the "Child is the Father of the Man" coda to "Surf's Up" on the eponymous album.  I think the song seems out of place on the album to begin with, but lyrically and melodically, the coda seems to come out of nowhere.  On Brian Wilson Presents Smile, however, because of the way that it's organized as part of the same movement as "Child is the Father of the Man," the coda doesn't seem to come out of the blue quite as much.  2) The sequencing on Brian Wilson Presents Smile sometimes works very well, but sometimes the attempt to create a flow between songs comes off as a bit forced.  The only movement I've ever found completely convincing is the second one.  That doesn't mean that he planned it as a movement, or that he planned to have the coda in the song, but the childhood connection already existed between the two songs even without the coda (the version of "Surf's Up" that he played on television ends with the lyric "a children's song"), so it wasn't too much of a stretch to connect them further.

I'd like to admit my ignorance on the subject of the lyrics of "Look"/"Song for Children."  Does anybody know whether these were written in 1966 or 2003/2004?  I know that the lyrics for "Do You Like Worms?" were written in 1966 but not originally recorded and I think that the lyrics for "In Blue Hawaii" were not written until the preparation for Brian Wilson Presents Smile, but I'm not sure about the other songs that appear as instrumentals in The Smile Sessions.

Yeah, I too doubt he was really gonna do the movements thing on SMiLE back in the '60s and I think the songs are all strong enough by far to stand on their own.

Now anyways, about which of the songs that some are not sure about the lyrics, well here's a pretty definitive take, in my opinion. All of lyrics for "Do You Like Worms" were done in the '60s; "Look"/"Song For Children" was done in the '00s; "Child Is Father Of The Man" had the chorus and possibly verse lyrics in the '60s, however the verse lyrics from BWPS are from the '00s; "Holidays" surprisingly actually had most of it's lyrics from the '60s, although I'm pretty sure the "pirate rap" came from more recently; and "In Blue Hawaii" had lyrics composed in the '00s, although one could say "Love To Say Dada" was "finished" as "Cool, Cool Water".

I'm wondering where we know that the lyrics for Holidays were from the 60s.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I sort of doubt that Mr. Wilson had gotten to the point that he had a good idea of sequencing and the existence of movements in Smile around 1967.  Perhaps he considered it as a possibility, but nobody involved in the project seems to have been aware of it.

Still, it's an interesting subject for two reasons: 1) I'd always been confused about the "Child is the Father of the Man" coda to "Surf's Up" on the eponymous album.  I think the song seems out of place on the album to begin with, but lyrically and melodically, the coda seems to come out of nowhere.  On Brian Wilson Presents Smile, however, because of the way that it's organized as part of the same movement as "Child is the Father of the Man," the coda doesn't seem to come out of the blue quite as much.  2) The sequencing on Brian Wilson Presents Smile sometimes works very well, but sometimes the attempt to create a flow between songs comes off as a bit forced.  The only movement I've ever found completely convincing is the second one.  That doesn't mean that he planned it as a movement, or that he planned to have the coda in the song, but the childhood connection already existed between the two songs even without the coda (the version of "Surf's Up" that he played on television ends with the lyric "a children's song"), so it wasn't too much of a stretch to connect them further.

I'd like to admit my ignorance on the subject of the lyrics of "Look"/"Song for Children."  Does anybody know whether these were written in 1966 or 2003/2004?  I know that the lyrics for "Do You Like Worms?" were written in 1966 but not originally recorded and I think that the lyrics for "In Blue Hawaii" were not written until the preparation for Brian Wilson Presents Smile, but I'm not sure about the other songs that appear as instrumentals in The Smile Sessions.

Yeah, I too doubt he was really gonna do the movements thing on SMiLE back in the '60s and I think the songs are all strong enough by far to stand on their own.

Now anyways, about which of the songs that some are not sure about the lyrics, well here's a pretty definitive take, in my opinion. All of lyrics for "Do You Like Worms" were done in the '60s; "Look"/"Song For Children" was done in the '00s; "Child Is Father Of The Man" had the chorus and possibly verse lyrics in the '60s, however the verse lyrics from BWPS are from the '00s; "Holidays" surprisingly actually had most of it's lyrics from the '60s, although I'm pretty sure the "pirate rap" came from more recently; and "In Blue Hawaii" had lyrics composed in the '00s, although one could say "Love To Say Dada" was "finished" as "Cool, Cool Water".

I'm wondering where we know that the lyrics for Holidays were from the 60s.

Because Frank Holmes did the illustration for Holidays before BWPS was conceived and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Holmes revealed to AGD that the source for his illustration was an old Van Dyke Parks lyrics sheet. The question is - is the melody from the 60s or the 00s? After all, it seems as if the Roll Plymouth "Once upon the Sandwich..." lyrics were from the 60s but the melody for those lyrics were arrived at in the 00s.

[I. Spaceman]

it seems as if the Roll Plymouth "Once upon the Sandwich..." lyrics were from the 60s but the melody for those lyrics were arrived at in the 00s.

Yes! The true melody is HERE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RpdU8Bep28

[Chocolate Shake Man]

it seems as if the Roll Plymouth "Once upon the Sandwich..." lyrics were from the 60s but the melody for those lyrics were arrived at in the 00s.

Yes! The true melody is HERE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RpdU8Bep28

Man, you really have it for that video, don't you?

[I. Spaceman]

it seems as if the Roll Plymouth "Once upon the Sandwich..." lyrics were from the 60s but the melody for those lyrics were arrived at in the 00s.

Yes! The true melody is HERE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RpdU8Bep28

Man, you really have it for that video, don't you?

I must admit, it has given me many hours of laughing pleasure. 

[Aegir]

I've never seen that video until now and that seems pretty accurate in terms of that off the cuff thing Brian was singing on the session track.

[Jim V.]

I've never seen that video until now and that seems pretty accurate in terms of that off the cuff thing Brian was singing on the session track.

Actually there was one posted by aeijtzsche on YouTube that actually sounded like it may have been the originally intended melody.

[Micha]

My guess is that the CIFOTM lyric line was inserted into the "Surf's Up" coda after CIFOTM was abandoned, not as a reference. The question is, when was CIFOTM abandoned? 1967? The drum pattern of the 1966 chorus was used in "Little Bird" in 1968, so CIFOTM was clearly abandoned by then - if it was Brian who inserted it there. "Little Bird" also features the bass pattern from the first movement of "Surf's Up", which had been abandoned at that point too, obviously.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Another topic- Was the line sung over the Coda meant for CIFOTM?

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

I mean the idea and melody.

[Aegir]

My guess is that the CIFOTM lyric line was inserted into the "Surf's Up" coda after CIFOTM was abandoned, not as a reference. The question is, when was CIFOTM abandoned? 1967? The drum pattern of the 1966 chorus was used in "Little Bird" in 1968, so CIFOTM was clearly abandoned by then - if it was Brian who inserted it there. "Little Bird" also features the bass pattern from the first movement of "Surf's Up", which had been abandoned at that point too, obviously.

everything on Smile was abandoned when Smile was abandoned.

[runnersdialzero]

I mean the idea and melody.

No one knows, probably. There are other parts on there that aren't on any version of "Child," too.

[Camus]

"Little Bird" also features the bass pattern from the first movement of "Surf's Up"

That bass line pattern is Brian Wilson's standard piano left hand - 90% of his piano parts feature that bass pattern in the left hand.