"Made in California" Box Set

[Cabinessenceking]

Not meant as a offence, but I believe people who are better educated and have been exposed to (undeniably) higher quality of music such as classical and jazz genres will inevitably favour the glory that is Pet Sounds, Smile and the latter period. People who have not been exposed as much to 'good' music will inevitably favour the surf and car hits. I'm not saying that one cannot like the other.  Preference however is a different matter, and I do believe my idea holds some water. Most on this board for instance can enjoy the early hits, but prefer the post-1964/65 period. I do believe those people would qualify under the 'criteria' i set.

[drbeachboy]

Not meant as a offence, but I believe people who are better educated and have been exposed to (undeniably) higher quality of music such as classical and jazz genres will inevitably favour the glory that is Pet Sounds, Smile and the latter period. People who have not been exposed as much to 'good' music will inevitably favour the surf and car hits. I'm not saying that one cannot like the other.  Preference however is a different matter, and I do believe my idea holds some water. Most on this board for instance can enjoy the early hits, but prefer the post-1964/65 period. I do believe those people would qualify under the 'criteria' i set.

While some of what you say is true, the pre-1966 stuff has plenty of jazz influences on it, as well. Quite a bit of the guitar work on the post 1963 music is very jazz influenced.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Not meant as a offence, but I believe people who are better educated and have been exposed to (undeniably) higher quality of music such as classical and jazz genres will inevitably favour the glory that is Pet Sounds, Smile and the latter period. People who have not been exposed as much to 'good' music will inevitably favour the surf and car hits. I'm not saying that one cannot like the other.  Preference however is a different matter, and I do believe my idea holds some water. Most on this board for instance can enjoy the early hits, but prefer the post-1964/65 period. I do believe those people would qualify under the 'criteria' i set.

I would strongly disagree.  What do you mean by "higher quality"?  Not to mention "good."  Lay out your objective criteria.

[Nicko]

Not meant as a offence, but I believe people who are better educated and have been exposed to (undeniably) higher quality of music such as classical and jazz genres will inevitably favour the glory that is Pet Sounds, Smile and the latter period. People who have not been exposed as much to 'good' music will inevitably favour the surf and car hits. I'm not saying that one cannot like the other.  Preference however is a different matter, and I do believe my idea holds some water. Most on this board for instance can enjoy the early hits, but prefer the post-1964/65 period. I do believe those people would qualify under the 'criteria' i set.

Sounds like guff to me. And rather pretentious guff at that.

[drbeachboy]

Not meant as a offence, but I believe people who are better educated and have been exposed to (undeniably) higher quality of music such as classical and jazz genres will inevitably favour the glory that is Pet Sounds, Smile and the latter period. People who have not been exposed as much to 'good' music will inevitably favour the surf and car hits. I'm not saying that one cannot like the other.  Preference however is a different matter, and I do believe my idea holds some water. Most on this board for instance can enjoy the early hits, but prefer the post-1964/65 period. I do believe those people would qualify under the 'criteria' i set.

Sounds like guff to me. And rather pretentious guff at that.

Well, if you follow his postings on here, he definitely has a bias for the PS & Smile era music.

[tansen]

I think he means that the more music you listen, particularly often complex music genres such as jazz and classical, the more your taste develops. Like he says, it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy early hits and more "easier-to-like" songs, but that it might make you require more of the material you listen to.

One of the reasons why I think a lot of modern music suck, is because it seems like the artists haven't taken the time to listen and analyze 'older' (being that 'Surfin U.S.A. or Pet Sounds) material, and thus creating 4th and even 5th generation bleak copies of music that have already been done.

The way I see it, the perception of music is a learning curve, and each subsequent genre/artist/etc you listen to, will inform your taste some how. Your preference may vary, though.

[Nicko]

I think he means that the more music you listen, particularly often complex music genres such as jazz and classical, the more your taste develops. Like he says, it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy early hits and more "easier-to-like" songs, but that it might make you require more of the material you listen to.

One of the reasons why I think a lot of modern music suck, is because it seems like the artists haven't taken the time to listen and analyze 'older' (being that 'Surfin U.S.A. or Pet Sounds) material, and thus creating 4th and even 5th generation bleak copies of music that have already been done.

The way I see it, the perception of music is a learning curve, and each subsequent genre/artist/etc you listen to, will inform your taste some how. Your preference may vary, though.

A person's taste changes over the years obviously. But that can be for better or worse.

[DonnyL]

Not meant as a offence, but I believe people who are better educated and have been exposed to (undeniably) higher quality of music such as classical and jazz genres will inevitably favour the glory that is Pet Sounds, Smile and the latter period. People who have not been exposed as much to 'good' music will inevitably favour the surf and car hits. I'm not saying that one cannot like the other.  Preference however is a different matter, and I do believe my idea holds some water. Most on this board for instance can enjoy the early hits, but prefer the post-1964/65 period. I do believe those people would qualify under the 'criteria' i set.

Disagree 100% ...

the thing is, I would not put Pet Sounds and Smile in the same category in terms of composition, arrangement, or production. Most of the Smile songs are relatively straightforward compared to Pet Sounds. Many tracks on Today and Summer Days have more in common with Pet Sounds than Smile. Earlier tracks like 'Catch a Wave', 'I Get Around' and 'Don't Back Down' have striking twists and turns in terms of arrangement. And plenty of the '67-'72 era stuff is pretty basic. Not that the complexity of the song has anything to do with it's merit anyway.

[Shady]

It's a shame this isn't coming out for Christmas it would have made an incredible Christmas gift

[Jason]

It all goes back to personal preference. My Beach Boys listening is predominantly the 1967-73 era since it's my favorite, but it doesn't mean I enjoy the other periods any less (well, Keepin' the Summer Alive is still junk regardless of period).

I don't think it's a level of "education" that makes people favor the Pet Sounds/Smile era. Some rather simpleminded people refer to Pet Sounds and Smile like they were the only things the Beach Boys did that were of any merit (including many of these so-called educated "fans"). But other than vocal harmonies and arrangements, there's nothing really intricate behind the Smile music. Most of the songs are two or three chords or variations on other songs.

Besides, the true work of genius in their oeuvre isn't Pet Sounds or Smile or even Sunflower...it's Smiley Smile.

[Mr. Cohen]

"Who Ran the Iron Horse?" might only be two chords, but it's at least as complex as anything on Pet Sounds.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Al is able to wear a shirt basically telling everyone "Hey, almost everyone here is high right now"

wait, wat?

I don't have the slightest clue as to what that means, but I love it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIVGkPKlhbs&feature=youtu.be

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

"Who Ran the Iron Horse?" might only be two chords, but it's at least as complex as anything on Pet Sounds.

Define complexity.

[Cabinessenceking]

As I said: I mean no offense to anyone. It was only my personal opinion (which I believe many people here hold) that people who have (for lack of better words) a more 'cultured' approach to music, in that maybe they play an instrument themselves, enjoyed classical music as a child or engage in singing, will appreciate the depth that the post-1965 music will give. We all know Brian did many songs in a very simple chord pattern, but there were many different instruments doing different 'stuff' all while, For example 'Who Ran The Iron Horse' is 2 chords repeating, but the cello has many notes, and the real texture is the harmonies which are very highly accomplished.

Even the Smiley Smile album is easier for many to graps than others. The Surfin USA crowd would (and did) frown upon it. More accomplished audiences and many notable musicians glorify it for it's daringness. It is a very unique piece of music, where 'less is more' and many people really appreciate such a touch. Even SS is very intricate on many lvls, take 'Whisperin Winds' or 'Fall Breaks'.

I do realise that what I'm trying to say is hard to grap given my limited ability to convey my ideas through this message alone. I'm not saying that the Surfin' USA crowd is dumb or anything. As I said in my other post, it's about preference. not a white/black - like/dislike of any of the two sides of the Beach Boys.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

As I said: I mean no offense to anyone. It was only my personal opinion (which I believe many people here hold) that people who have (for lack of better words) a more 'cultured' approach to music, in that maybe they play an instrument themselves, enjoyed classical music as a child or engage in singing, will appreciate the depth that the post-1965 music will give. We all know Brian did many songs in a very simple chord pattern, but there were many different instruments doing different 'stuff' all while, For example 'Who Ran The Iron Horse' is 2 chords repeating, but the cello has many notes, and the real texture is the harmonies which are very highly accomplished.

Even the Smiley Smile album is easier for many to graps than others. The Surfin USA crowd would (and did) frown upon it. More accomplished audiences and many notable musicians glorify it for it's daringness. It is a very unique piece of music, where 'less is more' and many people really appreciate such a touch. Even SS is very intricate on many lvls, take 'Whisperin Winds' or 'Fall Breaks'.

I do realise that what I'm trying to say is hard to grap given my limited ability to convey my ideas through this message alone. I'm not saying that the Surfin' USA crowd is dumb or anything. As I said in my other post, it's about preference. not a white/black - like/dislike of any of the two sides of the Beach Boys.

Nobody's taking offense, we just think you're wrong.  It's not hard to grasp what you're saying either, but you're begging the question.

Using myself as an example, I play several instruments, have since I was a child, some on a near professional level, have sung in very accomplished choirs, and enjoyed as a child and enjoy classical music now; in fact, the Beach Boys are about the only popular music that I listen to on a regular basis.  I'm mostly an opera queen, I have way more opera recordings than pop recordings, I can read music, I've studied composition formally at the college level, etc, etc.

The point here being, if I had to listen to either only pre Pet Sounds Beach Boys or only Pet Sounds and after Beach Boys for the rest of my life, it's not even close--the earlier stuff gets the nod without even thinking about it.

I expect I'm not alone.  I could not be more cultured when it comes to music and I choose pre-1966 Beach Boys.  How does that square with your thesis?

[Cabinessenceking]

As I said: I mean no offense to anyone. It was only my personal opinion (which I believe many people here hold) that people who have (for lack of better words) a more 'cultured' approach to music, in that maybe they play an instrument themselves, enjoyed classical music as a child or engage in singing, will appreciate the depth that the post-1965 music will give. We all know Brian did many songs in a very simple chord pattern, but there were many different instruments doing different 'stuff' all while, For example 'Who Ran The Iron Horse' is 2 chords repeating, but the cello has many notes, and the real texture is the harmonies which are very highly accomplished.

Even the Smiley Smile album is easier for many to graps than others. The Surfin USA crowd would (and did) frown upon it. More accomplished audiences and many notable musicians glorify it for it's daringness. It is a very unique piece of music, where 'less is more' and many people really appreciate such a touch. Even SS is very intricate on many lvls, take 'Whisperin Winds' or 'Fall Breaks'.

I do realise that what I'm trying to say is hard to grap given my limited ability to convey my ideas through this message alone. I'm not saying that the Surfin' USA crowd is dumb or anything. As I said in my other post, it's about preference. not a white/black - like/dislike of any of the two sides of the Beach Boys.

Nobody's taking offense, we just think you're wrong.  It's not hard to grasp what you're saying either, but you're begging the question.

Using myself as an example, I play several instruments, have since I was a child, some on a near professional level, have sung in very accomplished choirs, and enjoyed as a child and enjoy classical music now; in fact, the Beach Boys are about the only popular music that I listen to on a regular basis.  I'm mostly an opera queen, I have way more opera recordings than pop recordings, I can read music, I've studied composition formally at the college level, etc, etc.

The point here being, if I had to listen to either only pre Pet Sounds Beach Boys or only Pet Sounds and after Beach Boys for the rest of my life, it's not even close--the earlier stuff gets the nod without even thinking about it.

I expect I'm not alone.  I could not be more cultured when it comes to music and I choose pre-1966 Beach Boys.  How does that square with your thesis?

As you say I can't argue against that. It's just that whenever I hear any mention of them from recognised critics or musicians, the focus goes on PS, Smile and after (btw I said 1964-65 as a limit, since much of what one would find on PS one could also hear on Beach Boys Today!). What perhaps influences the perception of their music would be if one grew up back then and dreamed of the California life throught their music. For newer generations, they might not feel the same vibrant connection. Also they had the latter output to compare the early with from the beginning. That might not be the case anymore given that much has changed since then. Especially in regards to the car culture. Don't get me wrong, I dig the early period, but for me the thing that drew me into the BB fold was PS and after.

[DonnyL]

As I said: I mean no offense to anyone. It was only my personal opinion (which I believe many people here hold) that people who have (for lack of better words) a more 'cultured' approach to music, in that maybe they play an instrument themselves, enjoyed classical music as a child or engage in singing, will appreciate the depth that the post-1965 music will give. We all know Brian did many songs in a very simple chord pattern, but there were many different instruments doing different 'stuff' all while, For example 'Who Ran The Iron Horse' is 2 chords repeating, but the cello has many notes, and the real texture is the harmonies which are very highly accomplished.

Even the Smiley Smile album is easier for many to graps than others. The Surfin USA crowd would (and did) frown upon it. More accomplished audiences and many notable musicians glorify it for it's daringness. It is a very unique piece of music, where 'less is more' and many people really appreciate such a touch. Even SS is very intricate on many lvls, take 'Whisperin Winds' or 'Fall Breaks'.

I do realise that what I'm trying to say is hard to grap given my limited ability to convey my ideas through this message alone. I'm not saying that the Surfin' USA crowd is dumb or anything. As I said in my other post, it's about preference. not a white/black - like/dislike of any of the two sides of the Beach Boys.

I don't think it's about agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion (I personally disagree). It's the idea that some are more musically 'cultured' than others; the implication being that they are able to appreciate the finer aspects of these albums, whereas the common folk can't. That's really just kind of an offensive concept. Particularly absurd considering the primary creator would not necessarily even fall into this 'educated'/'cultured' category.

(prefacing an offensive statement with 'no offense ...' does not negate the offensiveness of the comment!)

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

As I said: I mean no offense to anyone. It was only my personal opinion (which I believe many people here hold) that people who have (for lack of better words) a more 'cultured' approach to music, in that maybe they play an instrument themselves, enjoyed classical music as a child or engage in singing, will appreciate the depth that the post-1965 music will give. We all know Brian did many songs in a very simple chord pattern, but there were many different instruments doing different 'stuff' all while, For example 'Who Ran The Iron Horse' is 2 chords repeating, but the cello has many notes, and the real texture is the harmonies which are very highly accomplished.

Even the Smiley Smile album is easier for many to graps than others. The Surfin USA crowd would (and did) frown upon it. More accomplished audiences and many notable musicians glorify it for it's daringness. It is a very unique piece of music, where 'less is more' and many people really appreciate such a touch. Even SS is very intricate on many lvls, take 'Whisperin Winds' or 'Fall Breaks'.

I do realise that what I'm trying to say is hard to grap given my limited ability to convey my ideas through this message alone. I'm not saying that the Surfin' USA crowd is dumb or anything. As I said in my other post, it's about preference. not a white/black - like/dislike of any of the two sides of the Beach Boys.

I don't think it's about agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion (I personally disagree). It's the idea that some are more musically 'cultured' than others; the implication being that they are able to appreciate the finer aspects of these albums, whereas the common folk can't. That's really just kind of an offensive concept. Particularly absurd considering the primary creator would not necessarily even fall into this 'educated'/'cultured' category.

(prefacing an offensive statement with 'no offense ...' does not negate the offensiveness of the comment!)

Yeah, that's well put.  It's kind of an elitist way to look at music, and while that's a whole 'nother can of worms (Like Fat Mike says, "It's my job to keep punk rock elite...") there is no reason to assume that there is any sort of culturing required to enjoy certain types of music.

I would argue that either music hits you on some level or it doesn't, and then you go back afterwards and figure it out.  There is music that grows on you, but that, I believe is the effect of the music, intrinsic to itself, that works on the mind, rather than any sort of intellectual adaptation.

[pixletwin]

I think it depends on who is on the receiving end. A heart surgeon is probably better placed to appreciate the intricacies of the human heart. That doesn't negate anyone else's appreciation but it does give the surgeon's appreciation a bit more weight.

[hypehat]

"There are two kinds of music. Good music, and the other kind."
Duke Ellington.

[DonnyL]

As you say I can't argue against that. It's just that whenever I hear any mention of them from recognised critics or musicians, the focus goes on PS, Smile and after (btw I said 1964-65 as a limit, since much of what one would find on PS one could also hear on Beach Boys Today!). What perhaps influences the perception of their music would be if one grew up back then and dreamed of the California life throught their music. For newer generations, they might not feel the same vibrant connection. Also they had the latter output to compare the early with from the beginning. That might not be the case anymore given that much has changed since then. Especially in regards to the car culture. Don't get me wrong, I dig the early period, but for me the thing that drew me into the BB fold was PS and after.

In my opinion, this is because critics and musicians are often listening to music for reasons other than enjoyment and emotional impact, and generally have more hang-ups about music than the average listener. Pet Sounds and Smile are perceived as more 'artistic' and subtle than say, All Summer Long. But at least part of this is a cultural bias ... you could call it 'cultured' or 'educated', but you could just as easily call it 'brainwashed'.

[DonnyL]

Yeah, that's well put.  It's kind of an elitist way to look at music, and while that's a whole 'nother can of worms (Like Fat Mike says, "It's my job to keep punk rock elite...") there is no reason to assume that there is any sort of culturing required to enjoy certain types of music.

I would argue that either music hits you on some level or it doesn't, and then you go back afterwards and figure it out.  There is music that grows on you, but that, I believe is the effect of the music, intrinsic to itself, that works on the mind, rather than any sort of intellectual adaptation.

yeh, that's it in my opinion.

to me, the brilliance of a track like 'I Get Around' is that I never tire of it, yet it is instantly accessible. That, beyond anything else, is where BW's genius lies -- the ability to stir up something multi-layered and fairly involved that has immediate appeal.

[DonnyL]

I think it depends on who is on the receiving end. A heart surgeon is probably better placed to appreciate the intricacies of the human heart. That doesn't negate anyone else's appreciation but it does give the surgeon's appreciation a bit more weight.

With heart surgery, yes ... heart surgery is not a matter of opinion; there are explicit, measurable results. Musical validity is always a matter of opinion.

[pixletwin]

I think it depends on who is on the receiving end. A heart surgeon is probably better placed to appreciate the intricacies of the human heart. That doesn't negate anyone else's appreciation but it does give the surgeon's appreciation a bit more weight.

With heart surgery, yes ... heart surgery is not a matter of opinion; there are explicit, measurable results. Musical validity is always a matter of opinion.

Quite right. But my point is that someone with a higher education in music is better equipped to appreciate why something is "good". I'm not saying anyone's opinions are more or less valid than anyone else.

[DonnyL]

I think it depends on who is on the receiving end. A heart surgeon is probably better placed to appreciate the intricacies of the human heart. That doesn't negate anyone else's appreciation but it does give the surgeon's appreciation a bit more weight.

With heart surgery, yes ... heart surgery is not a matter of opinion; there are explicit, measurable results. Musical validity is always a matter of opinion.

Quite right. But my point is that someone with a higher education in music is better equipped to appreciate why something is "good". I'm not saying anyone's opinions are more or less valid than anyone else.

maybe ... i fear that we 'music people' tend to understate the capabilities of the maligned 'average listener' though.