Why is it so hard to get a decent sounding mix of Heroes and Villains?

[runnersdialzero]

The '67 mono mix is indeed one of the better ones, possibly my favorite among the ones that utilize the final vocal.

the reason no one has been able to top it is because it's the closest we will ever come to SMiLE actually being finished and released in '67 -- that's reality.

Can't argue much, there, although I'd say "Good Vibrations" is closer to what it would have been. The final "Heroes" seems to be the result of, "f*** it, I'm totally overwhelmed by this God damned song and Capitol won't get off my sh*t about it. I'm finishing it today with a simple structure that omits much of the work I put into it, I'm mixing it quickly without sweating the details, we need a new song out," in comparison to how "Good Vibrations" turned out.

[JMZ]

I join those who think the orchestral basic tracks for the verse and the chorus are  ytoo muddy. IMO, the recording is too "distant from sources", it works when you play the track alone, but when you add all the vocal layers, the instrumental track sounds thin and unclear. It's mostly a production/arrangement problem.  

[DonnyL]

I joint those who think the orchestral basic tracks for the verse and the chorus are  ytoo muddy. IMO, the recording is too "distant from sources", it works when you play the track alone, but when you add all the vocal layers, the instrumental track sounds thin and unclear. It's mostly a production/arrangement problem.  

I think any perceived 'problems' on 'Heroes & Villians' were totally intentional. It has a very specific sound. There is indeed a fine line between every element blended into one, and what people may perceive as 'murky' ... I think something that we miss is that BW was after Spector's sound, and still feels that he never quite got there. Listeners may appreciate that he was able to get a blend while still allowing individual elements to come through clearly, but I'm not sure that was his ultimate goal. With 'Heroes', he really seemed to get really close to the Spector sound on the main verse track. Listen to Ike & Tina's 'Save the Last Dance for Me'.

[DonnyL]

The '67 mono mix is indeed one of the better ones, possibly my favorite among the ones that utilize the final vocal.

the reason no one has been able to top it is because it's the closest we will ever come to SMiLE actually being finished and released in '67 -- that's reality.

Can't argue much, there, although I'd say "Good Vibrations" is closer to what it would have been. The final "Heroes" seems to be the result of, "f*** it, I'm totally overwhelmed by this Gosh Darned song and Capitol won't get off my sh*t about it. I'm finishing it today with a simple structure that omits much of the work I put into it, I'm mixing it quickly without sweating the details, we need a new song out," in comparison to how "Good Vibrations" turned out.

maybe so, but 'vibes' really seems to be it's own entity. after all, some of those tracks were cut during Pet Sounds.

[blank]

I will say that if Brian was really pushing for a hit and a follow-up to "Good Vibrations", the Bicycle Rider chorus was about the last thing he should have used for "Heroes". It's a great song, I like the shift from the verse to the chorus, but I can see why it was basically the beginning of the end of their commercial success.

When people on this board refer to the "Bicycle Rider chorus", does that specifically mean the one that has the bicycle rider lyrics or is it referring to the melody itself?

I don't really have a strong opinion about the console-work on this song's various incarnations, but I definitely feel that the chorus kills most versions of this song for me.  However, the (chorus-less) "Parts 1&2" version from the TSS set is amazing, one of my favorite things that came out of that release.

[Dunderhead]

I think Brian's nomenclature for the different sections is one of the more interesting, and potentially revealing aspects of the song. I think it would be really useful if someone actually delinted all the specific parts, and we could reach an overall consensus as to what all of their names were.

What does everyone in this thread think of the "verse edit experiment"? I wish Brian had gone that way in the final version, there's just something about it which really emphasizes the song's peculiar nature.

[runnersdialzero]

I will say that if Brian was really pushing for a hit and a follow-up to "Good Vibrations", the Bicycle Rider chorus was about the last thing he should have used for "Heroes". It's a great song, I like the shift from the verse to the chorus, but I can see why it was basically the beginning of the end of their commercial success.

When people on this board refer to the "Bicycle Rider chorus", does that specifically mean the one that has the bicycle rider lyrics or is it referring to the melody itself?

Just the melody/piece of music itself. Obviously the actual "Bicycle rider, see, see what you've done" section isn't on "Heroes".

[mike s]

they just didn't nail the Smiley Heroes chorus - I think it could be done though

try this thought experiment:  play the Smiley version in your head but instead of the usual chorus substitute the 'Who ran the iron Horse' chorus - it really works and demonstrates how a spooky thing could have worked fine

this isn't quite the cheat it sounds either:  'into' was recorded for H&V and is very similar to WRTIH, in fact I indeed think it was meant to sound like a train

[runnersdialzero]

"Who Ran The Iron Horse" would be just as jarring, to me. Granted, I'm a fan of the chorus just as is, although I can see why it killed any hit potential the song may have had.

[mike s]

hi -  I don't think WRTIH would be just as jarring because they nailed that section, it really really works

the Smiley chorus is whiney and odd sounding, it sounds like they missed what they were going for - a very rare thing with Brian's music

[mike s]

the verse backing track was beautifully recorded - the best mix is on the TSS box set

listen to the way the snarling cello melds into the end of the flutter horn trumpet effect - beautiful

they lost it in the performance of the vocals + the mix

[halblaineisgood]

Parts 1&2 45 rpm leaves me satisfied and smiling. Beyond decent.
Whenever I want to hear it, I have it recorded on a cassette. This adds pleasant tape compression, and relieves  me of the need to change speeds on my turntable (which is a pain in the ass)

[Cabinessenceking]

"Who Ran The Iron Horse" would be just as jarring, to me. Granted, I'm a fan of the chorus just as is, although I can see why it killed any hit potential the song may have had.

cabin essence? if you refer to that song, it had no potential as a single from its inception. Too far out, cultural and mature to speak to the audiences. Only GV had (and did get) any great single potential imo, H&V only scored high because it was a follow up. It's a great song ofc, but not a hit in the vein of GV. Could Vegetables suceeded where H&V didnt? perhaps that one was too goofy as well ^^