The Smiley Smile Message Board

I know a few members have expressed their sentiments on Heroes and Villains and it's many mixes, but tonight, listening though my library, it started annoying me too.

For example, we have:

Good ol' Smiley Smile mix, muddy, full of stuff that shouldn't be their, missing the cantina, contains studio talk, and an (intentionally) piss-poor effort by Brian.

The '67 Exploding Cantina acetate, which is, uh, horrible IMO (bad vocal, too short, mud)

Hawthorne, CA mix, Smiley Mix but in Stereo, and missing a few things here and there

TSS mono mix. Probably my favorite mix in terms of what's their and how it's arranged, but it's so hard to hear things. It can be hard to hear the organ on Children were raised, the Harpsichord in the chorus is drowned out by the tambourine and cello and whatnot.

TSS stereo mix. Same sh*t, two channels.

SS '12 mix, I haven't heard it yet.

But yeah, why is it so hard to get a satisfying mix? Between muddiness and quietness and cacophony and that effin' snare (personally doesn't bother me, but a lot of people have a particular disdain for it), it seems like we're never going to hear H&V as well as we could.

The SS Stereo mix is amazing

To me, the best sounding mix of Heroes is on Brian Wilson Classics (with the added bass)

I think the original 45/Smiley mix is perfect. captures the mystery, has punch & sounds catchy. bet it sounds better on AM radio than any of the others. the lead vocal is also the best of all of 'em. best arrangement too !

I really wish we had the first session, I imagine it as probably the most straight forward version of the song. Verse-Chorus-Verse-Chorus-Bridge-Fade.

The bridge was probably My Only Sunshine, which is why I think the fade was tacked onto it by Brian, not because it was a stand alone track, but because he always intended MOS as the bridge to Heroes and Villains.

The 1966 recordings of Barnyard and what not were all probably intended for Heroes and Villains. I just think that sometime in September 1966 Brian resolved himself to use the modular method almost exclusively.

By the November 4th Heroes demo, he had recorded a number of sections for possible use, but hadn't decided on any order yet.

Verse -> Great Shape -> ? -> Barnyard? -> ?

He seemed like he was having trouble with transitions between the different parts, in giving the song a sense of overall cohesion.

The early version found among Smiley Smile/Wild Honey -twofer bonus tracks is probably my favorite. It's tight, punchy, cohesive (in it's own way). It could have been the single. Not a hit single, I'm afraid, but such an oddball, chorus-free song would have at least whetted people's appetite for Smile even more, guaranteed to sell million copies.

The punchy "Cantina" version is the best Mono.

SS is the best stereo, because it's smooth.

TSS revs my engine. Although the Cantina mix, whilst not the best sounding, still has the best distillation of that freaky sh*t Wilson was trying to grasp. Imagine releasing that in early 1967. They'd burn Beach Boys albums.

Yeah... Or was he trying that? Was he making a freaky sh*t or a hit?

Listening to all those sections and different mixes, I can't help but wonder if Brian really believed he was making a hit single, a commercial follow-up to GV? Because as great as the song and individual sections are... it didn't have a chorus, for Pete's sake!

And another thing, did his original idea get diluted when he bolted the Bicycle Rider chorus to it? Was adding the chorus a panic reaction (an attempt to make it more commercial), and in the process he watered down his original idea, and subsequently lost the original spark for the whole project? Damn, so many questions still open.

I just checked this out and you are right! the chorus sounds much better, but there is no way i'll buy that package for that song, so imma trying to torrent, but it's such an obscure package that no torrent exist. Oh Help Me Rhonda?

It does seem really hard to get a mix that encompasses all of the elements of H&V in one place. The original mono mix is terrific and is the one that we base all our subsequent expectations on (as it was assembled and mixed with Brian's express agreement, right when he was near the very top of his game), but it does sound pretty thin, tonally speaking, on modern systems. The Hawthorne, California mix from 2001, is in stereo, but it sounds tonally completely different from the mono mix (personally, I quite like this fact, but many others object - whatever, different strokes etc) and also the chorus is differently mixed, with rising spooky bass and no organ.

The SMiLE Sessions mix lacks an organ overdub on the first two verses, and has the 'spooky bass' chorus again. That's cool, though, as the organ overdub heard on the mono mix was definitely a Smiley-era addition, and as this is trying to be a SMiLE-era mix, it's appropriate that the organ isn't there. However, it does mean that the mix is once again different to the original mono. Also, the organ is back on the third verse, which isn't consistent, but is understandable; that verse and its vocals is from a Smiley-era mono mixdown and has the organ 'locked in'.

Now we have the stereo Smiley mix, which you would think would completely mirror the 1967 single mix - but curiously, it sort of does and sort of doesn't. The tonal balance is much closer to the mono mix than the Hawthorne mix, but with an overall more hi-fi sound, which I find pleasing. Tonally, I think this mix hits just the right spot. The Baldwin organ is also back for the choruses, replacing the rising bass which has been mixed out, as it was in 1967. So far so good. But the timing of some of the edits is different, and the organ is missing from the first two verses as it was on the 2011 SMiLE sessions mix. I just don't get that. It was understandable on the SMiLE Sessions box, but I thought the idea of a stereo mix of all the albums was to get the stereo mixes as close as possible to the mono album mixes. Sometimes, parts are missing from multitracks or whatever, which makes this job harder — but the presence of the organ overdub on the first two verses of the 2001 Hawthorne mix show that it must be available somewhere for use by modern mixes, so why isn't it there on the 2012 stereo Smiley mix?

So the quest for the 'perfect' H&V (obviously, a relative description) goes on. For now, I guess it's a 'roll your own' editing job. We have enough non-bootleg, professionally mixed parts to be able to create one now, at least...!

Honestly, having been a fan since 1973, H&V never hit me right. It was muddy and lacked ommph. I liked it better when Warner's released it as a single cuz they tried to clean it up some, re-eq'd it and made it brighter. But still didn't really care for it, although I loved the live version on IN CONCERT.

Then came 1990 and the 2 fers. First time I heard the cantina version. I remember I stopped dead in my tracks at my apartment and listened again and again. THAT is how H&V should have sounded and should have been released. What a great powerful vocal from Brian, the released is too laid back. Since then, H&V is my #1 fav of all of the BB songs. Hands down. Well that and Do It Again. In fact here is my top 5 (not that anyone really cares to know).

1.) H&V / Do It Again (can't choose)
2.) Surf's Up
3.) Vibes
4.) GOK
5.) Don't Worry Baby

Gee, I dunno...I've always like the mono mix and if it's muddy then it more adds to the song than detracts. Though I typically dislike stereo remixes of Brian's '60s classics, I gotta admit the stereo remix sounds pretty fine.

I like that mix the best as well.

H&V on TSS sounded very fine in mono, the stereo mix on the other hand is an utter disgrace and disaster. It seems the only difference was phasing the mono mix to the right channel and then focus the harmonies to the left*. I know very well that the stereo vocals for this song are lost, but as a compromise could they not have used the H&V Verse remake from TTS and added that to the stereo mix thereby creating a stereo effect for the drums at least. It's phunny how often I cite Smile AD, but he got this one correct as well. The only issue is he did it with the 1967 acetate, not the Smiley version (which sounds almost better right?)

My apologies if people think I'm bitching too much about the mixes our FINE engineers have produced (and the fact that they gave us TSS at all!), but there must be more one can do for a H&V stereo in the same format as that released on TSS. Or maybe I should just give up asking others and figure out how to do it myself. Mixing H&V would give a person enough preoccupation to last a lifetime!  ;D

Lets face it, H&V is Brian's white elephant and its hard to get a decent mix. I love the song, but its convoluted.

Yeah, just checked out this version myself, it's pretty nice. Especially since I'm so used to hearing it in mono.

H&V cantina from the SS/WH 1990 is still the best sounding version of the cantina mix. One of the few times Sonic Solutions really helped the sound.

Shame about the sound quality of that cut, if they had the proper master, it would be by far the best version of H&V.

Album/single mix sucks, Cantina mix sucks, Hawthorne mix sucks a lot, Smile Sessions mono sucks, Smile Sessions stereo sucks, 2012 mix sucks. All mixes suck. No "mystery" is brought about by muddy mixes with absolutely no punch to them, they just suck and greatly undersell one of Brian's best songs. You can't please everyone with specific structures, but the mixing is a different story.

Mono format is cool, stereo format is cool, these mixes just suck. I'm thinking the post '67 mixes of the song just don't have the resources to make it sound better.

The Cantina version is a brilliant arrangement and was my introduction to the song, possibly the second song I ever heard by them outside a handful of the early surf hits. The Smiley arrangement improves upon the verse, but the vocal performances are so lacking compared to the Cantina version. I love the performance and song structure, but the mix is really not good and the acetate source is less than ideal (constant "buzz" on the vocals, for one), although I understand that it's (unfortunately) all they really have to work with for this version.


And yet some of the vocals are Smiley-era additions, as are a number of other elements on The Smile Sessions, thus removing the organ from the verse and especially the chorus (where it's sorely missed) doesn't really make sense. Meanwhile, the 2012 Smiley album stereo mix omits the same organ overdub (that was present on the Hawthorne mix) - why?

Hang on I just figured what drags this song down: it's the chorus.

For those of you who have heard the live version done right now on the Beach Boys 50th, the moment the chorus comes on it sounds invigorating, fresh and upbeat, but in a different way from the live version from the 70's. It seems almost as if Brian's backing band suceeded in  doing the chorus live than Brian managed to do with the wrecking crew back in 66'.

I figure the studio chorus is just outright boring, the bass sounds sloppy and not firm enough. The percussion is great, but the bass is feable at best. It cries out for remastering in my ears!

It's been remixed and/or remastered over a dozen times at this point, and none of them seem to get it right. Again, I'd guess it's limited resources or something. The chorus is a little jarring when you first hear the song, but that's gonna happen regardless. The shoddy mixing job on all mixes is what drags the song down, to me.

I will say that if Brian was really pushing for a hit and a follow-up to "Good Vibrations", the Bicycle Rider chorus was about the last thing he should have used for "Heroes". It's a great song, I like the shift from the verse to the chorus, but I can see why it was basically the beginning of the end of their commercial success.

This song is like quicksand when it comes to mixing it. You can tinker with it forever, and still be lost on how the song should go. If Brian Wilson circa 1966-1967 can't get a great mix, why should we be able to?

ha! that '67 mix is killer man! i was completely blown away by it the first time i heard it on the radio at age 12. i recorded it on cassette and listened over and over. without all of this history, alternate versions, what 'could have been', etc ... the track stands tall. it's totally subtle ... can you pick out any instruments in it? i don't think many people can very well. it was a total blend, a total sound -- even the drums, which don't even sound like drums. some people call it muddy, i call it magic. totally unique, and unlike any track released by anyone EVER. Beach Boys win again -- they followed up 'Good Vibrations' with something weird as hell, and perfect. the reason no one has been able to top it is because it's the closest we will ever come to SMiLE actually being finished and released in '67 -- that's reality.

I think the reason a lot of you love the SS mono mix is nostalgia/familiarity.

It's really quite a sh*t mix.

I dig the little organ stings in the verse, but IMO the organ in the chorus is really depressing. Yeah, it is *really* hard to get a good mix of Bicycle Rider, now that I think about it, they're all over or under produced.

The end of the verse drags on too long, the speaking and laughing screams drugged up Smiley Smile, not fresh follow-up to GV.

I like the whoosh before children were raised, but no cantina.

No pretty fade, just that depressing as hell chorus.

The *only* reason I would want to listen to the exploding cantina (BTW, this mix has convinced me that the single version and Smile version of H&V were going to be very different, exploding cantina b/w "part 2" and then something like we got for TSS on the album) is the alternate children were raised/three score and five, but we have half of that on TSS, and it blows that three score and five is in such horrible quality, it'd be nice to have a tape source of it.

TSS is pretty good, it's just that a lot of parts get muddied out, a trait carried over from the earliest mixes. The stereo sounds exactly like the mono, but, uh, wide.

TSS mix would be a lot more satisfying (for me) if they kept the organ stings in the first verse, boosted the harpsichord in the chorus, brought the cello/bass down a bit, reinstated the whoosh before cantina, and boosted the children were raised organ.

Hawthorne sounds like it was involved in some horrible accident.

I know I'm going to like but not like the SS stereo mix. It's gonna sound crisp and high-quality, but I just don't dig the SS mix.

The '67 mono mix is indeed one of the better ones, possibly my favorite among the ones that utilize the final vocal.


Can't argue much, there, although I'd say "Good Vibrations" is closer to what it would have been. The final "Heroes" seems to be the result of, "f*** it, I'm totally overwhelmed by this God damned song and Capitol won't get off my sh*t about it. I'm finishing it today with a simple structure that omits much of the work I put into it, I'm mixing it quickly without sweating the details, we need a new song out," in comparison to how "Good Vibrations" turned out.

I join those who think the orchestral basic tracks for the verse and the chorus are  ytoo muddy. IMO, the recording is too "distant from sources", it works when you play the track alone, but when you add all the vocal layers, the instrumental track sounds thin and unclear. It's mostly a production/arrangement problem.  :-\

I think any perceived 'problems' on 'Heroes & Villians' were totally intentional. It has a very specific sound. There is indeed a fine line between every element blended into one, and what people may perceive as 'murky' ... I think something that we miss is that BW was after Spector's sound, and still feels that he never quite got there. Listeners may appreciate that he was able to get a blend while still allowing individual elements to come through clearly, but I'm not sure that was his ultimate goal. With 'Heroes', he really seemed to get really close to the Spector sound on the main verse track. Listen to Ike & Tina's 'Save the Last Dance for Me'.

maybe so, but 'vibes' really seems to be it's own entity. after all, some of those tracks were cut during Pet Sounds.

When people on this board refer to the "Bicycle Rider chorus", does that specifically mean the one that has the bicycle rider lyrics or is it referring to the melody itself?

I don't really have a strong opinion about the console-work on this song's various incarnations, but I definitely feel that the chorus kills most versions of this song for me.  However, the (chorus-less) "Parts 1&2" version from the TSS set is amazing, one of my favorite things that came out of that release.

I think Brian's nomenclature for the different sections is one of the more interesting, and potentially revealing aspects of the song. I think it would be really useful if someone actually delinted all the specific parts, and we could reach an overall consensus as to what all of their names were.

What does everyone in this thread think of the "verse edit experiment"? I wish Brian had gone that way in the final version, there's just something about it which really emphasizes the song's peculiar nature.

Just the melody/piece of music itself. Obviously the actual "Bicycle rider, see, see what you've done" section isn't on "Heroes".

they just didn't nail the Smiley Heroes chorus - I think it could be done though

try this thought experiment:  play the Smiley version in your head but instead of the usual chorus substitute the 'Who ran the iron Horse' chorus - it really works and demonstrates how a spooky thing could have worked fine

this isn't quite the cheat it sounds either:  'into' was recorded for H&V and is very similar to WRTIH, in fact I indeed think it was meant to sound like a train

"Who Ran The Iron Horse" would be just as jarring, to me. Granted, I'm a fan of the chorus just as is, although I can see why it killed any hit potential the song may have had.

hi -  I don't think WRTIH would be just as jarring because they nailed that section, it really really works

the Smiley chorus is whiney and odd sounding, it sounds like they missed what they were going for - a very rare thing with Brian's music

the verse backing track was beautifully recorded - the best mix is on the TSS box set

listen to the way the snarling cello melds into the end of the flutter horn trumpet effect - beautiful

they lost it in the performance of the vocals + the mix

Parts 1&2 45 rpm leaves me satisfied and smiling. Beyond decent.
Whenever I want to hear it, I have it recorded on a cassette. This adds pleasant tape compression, and relieves  me of the need to change speeds on my turntable (which is a pain in the ass)

cabin essence? if you refer to that song, it had no potential as a single from its inception. Too far out, cultural and mature to speak to the audiences. Only GV had (and did get) any great single potential imo, H&V only scored high because it was a follow up. It's a great song ofc, but not a hit in the vein of GV. Could Vegetables suceeded where H&V didnt? perhaps that one was too goofy as well ^^