Brian & The Mothers of Invention?

[ontor pertawst]

Fascinating glimpse, it really paints a vivid picture of Zappa at work. Was Frank curious about your work with Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys and did you guys talk shop about it? If so, what did he think of Brian's work?

His opinions about music were always so scathing, witty, and generally memorable regardless of them being praise or scorn...

I can imagine how demanding it must have been to do his concert mixing during that period -- my god, with such a crack band. One of his top lineups of all time, for sure. What was touring Zappa like as opposed to the studio creature? Obviously he was just as fanatically dedicated to proper execution of his scores during the concerts, but what about the offtime? Did he loosen up a bit or was it really that 200 Motels voyeuristic act, clutching a tape recorder and smirking with anthropological interest at the band's exploits?

[Mike's Beard]

Many thanks for the reply, it really creates a mental picture of two masters at play and how they both had very different approaches/outlooks on how to get the best out of those around them. Again thanks.

[PhilSpectre]

Mr Desper, I have a couple of questions for you.

1. In your many conversations with Frank Zappa, what was your impression of Frank's true attitude to jazz? Did he really dislike the music as a form, as he often claimed? Even though a significant number of his recordings could be said to have a 'jazz' feel to them, and used musicians famously associated with jazz, such as George Duke and Jean-Luc Ponty.

Frank was often mocking towards jazz in general on stage and in interviews, yet composed pieces like 'The Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue', an apparent tribute to the late jazz sax player of 'Out to Lunch' fame and much of Frank's early '70's output can musically be described as 'jazz rock' or 'jazz fusion'. Was Frank's attitude to jazz more open and positive when in private or in his recording/ rehearsing situations? You say he was very strict on how every note he wrote should be played in the studio; how much freedom would he give his players to improvise on stage? Was improvisation allowed to some band members for a few bars strictly on his say-so?

2. Meanwhile, Brian Wilson has often mentioned the Four Freshmen and Rosemary Clooney as early influences and he often uses 'advanced' chords that are also associated with jazz and classical music, and has employed jazz and swing styles in his recordings, such as his collaborations with Four Freshmen arranger Dick Reynolds on the mid-'60s Beach Boys Christmas album and 1976-77 recordings such as 'Still I Dream of It' and 'It's Over Now. It would appear that jazz or 'jazz pop', especially of the 1950s is part of Brian's musical DNA.

So, how great an influence would you say jazz had/has on Brian Wilson in his music and arrangements?

I apologise if my questions are a little specialised, but I have heard and read conflicting views on these matters and wondered what your take on 'Frank and Jazz' and 'Brian, the Beach Boys and Jazz' might be.

Thank you in advance if you choose to answer these.

[Ed Roach]

Also, I recall an interview where Brian called Zappa's music "evil".
(Don't ask me about sources, I read these on this board  )

Think that quote might have come from me.  Brian had come by my place in Santa Monica after a session at Brother Studio, (he & Dennis both loved playing this upright that my Grandma had given me, that I trucked out from Brooklyn), and, after he finished playing for awhile, I asked him if he'd heard this track of Zappa's that I loved, called The Orange County Lumber Truck  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEmZlAB8V08  He slipped on my headphones, but after a matter of seconds, he ripped them from his head and screamed, "Aaargh, devil music!"

[Stephen W. Desper]

Fascinating glimpse, it really paints a vivid picture of Zappa at work. Was Frank curious about your work with Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys and did you guys talk shop about it? If so, what did he think of Brian's work?

His opinions about music were always so scathing, witty, and generally memorable regardless of them being praise or scorn...

I can imagine how demanding it must have been to do his concert mixing during that period -- my god, with such a crack band. One of his top lineups of all time, for sure. What was touring Zappa like as opposed to the studio creature? Obviously he was just as fanatically dedicated to proper execution of his scores during the concerts, but what about the offtime? Did he loosen up a bit or was it really that 200 Motels voyeuristic act, clutching a tape recorder and smirking with anthropological interest at the band's exploits?

COMMENT:  Fascinating glimpse, it really paints a vivid picture of Zappa at work. Was Frank curious about your work with Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys and did you guys talk shop about it? If so, what did he think of Brian's work? My impression was that Frank was not very interested in anything but his own work – at least to me. He never discussed my work with The Beach Boys in detail. I do not know what he thought of Brian’s work.

His opinions about music were always so scathing, witty, and generally memorable regardless of them being praise or scorn...

I can imagine how demanding it must have been to do his concert mixing during that period -- my god, with such a crack band. One of his top lineups of all time, for sure. The first and immediate demands falling on me were for selection, connection and maintenance of the touring system. When combined with the original American Productions system, the total touring system was mostly expanded to accommodate all the instruments on stage from the band. Otherwise there was plenty of power and speakers for any venue on the booking. I bought several – maybe six or seven – additional consoles of 25 to 50 inputs each. These consoles were mounted vertically to the walls of the sound truck for domestic tours or transported in cases that remained unopened but vented for international tours. You see there were over 350 independent sources of sound coming off stage. These sources were sub-mixed in their respective consoles before being sent to the house mixing console. For example, Ruth’s vibraphone had a mics permanently affixed so as to pickup the sound of each of the bars making up the entire vibraphone. These were all balanced, EQed and pre-panned in the vib-console. The house mixer got a two-channel feed. The drums were all close miked, including each cymbal. These were all balanced, EQed and pre-panned in the drum-console. The house mixer got a two-channel mix of all drums except the kick(s) and the snare. So four feeds came to the house mixer of stereo drums, snare and kick. Another console handled all of George Duke’s synthesizers with a two-channel mix sent to the house. Same true for the brass section. The acoustic piano used a Countryman custom pickup that spanned the entire width of the piano. In essence, each piano string has a coil pickup (same as used on a solid-body guitar) over it. And, they all had to be balanced and panned. The reason for using pickups rather than close miking with several microphones is that with the coil pickups there was absolutely no acoustic leakage from the other instruments that might wash-out the sound of, say the drums or guitars. Since every instrument was close-miked or picked up by a coil, it meant that stage monitors could operated at a very high level without feedback worries. This is before in-ear monitoring was even heard of. Frank hated feedback. Only once during my time with him did some source get out of control and ring. Frank stopped the show and articulated me a new asshole for the enlightenment of the audience and the band one night when he heard the ringing. It took about five minutes of testing to figure out what of the 350 inputs was the culprit, but to credit his desire for perfection, Frank was the type of guy who would not settle for second best. Nope! He stopped the show and had the problem fixed. Then restarted the song from the beginning – and proceeded with the sound as it should have been. Frank knew how many cues I was dealing with and that I would have no time to contend with the ringing . . . which would only mean that some cues would be missed if I tried to fix it on the fly. With a show this complex, if you want it right you have to stop and fix the problem. So with Frank there were second takes in concert. If the band came in late for a cue or they were not all together for the downbeat, in other words were not playing tight enough for him, he would stop the song right during the show and demand that a player or players pay attention, then start the song again. If you were a member of the audience he was going to make certain that you got a good performance that night. No mistakes allowed. Only re-starts.

Somewhere in my storage of things related to Zappa are the mixer’s cue sheets for all the songs in his concert repertoire. These are the bars in the score of each song where a change in level or signal routing is required. These changes come along about every other bar or measure, but sometimes there were two or three cues within a measure. Believe me, I was a busy fellow – no time for just sitting and listening. You need to know how to read music to mix for Frank Zappa. 

What was touring Zappa like as opposed to the studio creature?  About the same. He was in charge. He had a definite idea about how he wanted his music to be presented. Which is OK because Frank was a very smart guy.

Obviously he was just as fanatically dedicated to proper execution of his scores during the concerts, but what about the offtime? Did he loosen up a bit or was it really that 200 Motels voyeuristic act, clutching a tape recorder and smirking with anthropological interest at the band's exploits?  No, none of that. He would joke around with the band members when waiting around in airports or at restaurants. Off time he would usually be with a minimum of two woman and his thermos of coffee. Towards the end of my last tour with him, he was writing his symphonic work. Every available moment he would work on it. If we had a twenty-minute wait for a bus or something, he would breakout his big folder, and spread out the score sheets. You would see him over in a corner, madly marking down notes and erasing others in refinement. This was a score for a symphony orchestra, so the score sheets were quite large.  

~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

Mr Desper, I have a couple of questions for you.

1. In your many conversations with Frank Zappa, what was your impression of Frank's true attitude to jazz? Did he really dislike the music as a form, as he often claimed? Even though a significant number of his recordings could be said to have a 'jazz' feel to them, and used musicians famously associated with jazz, such as George Duke and Jean-Luc Ponty.

Frank was often mocking towards jazz in general on stage and in interviews, yet composed pieces like 'The Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue', an apparent tribute to the late jazz sax player of 'Out to Lunch' fame and much of Frank's early '70's output can musically be described as 'jazz rock' or 'jazz fusion'. Was Frank's attitude to jazz more open and positive when in private or in his recording/ rehearsing situations? You say he was very strict on how every note he wrote should be played in the studio; how much freedom would he give his players to improvise on stage? Was improvisation allowed to some band members for a few bars strictly on his say-so?

2. Meanwhile, Brian Wilson has often mentioned the Four Freshmen and Rosemary Clooney as early influences and he often uses 'advanced' chords that are also associated with jazz and classical music, and has employed jazz and swing styles in his recordings, such as his collaborations with Four Freshmen arranger Dick Reynolds on the mid-'60s Beach Boys Christmas album and 1976-77 recordings such as 'Still I Dream of It' and 'It's Over Now. It would appear that jazz or 'jazz pop', especially of the 1950s is part of Brian's musical DNA.

So, how great an influence would you say jazz had/has on Brian Wilson in his music and arrangements?

I apologise if my questions are a little specialised, but I have heard and read conflicting views on these matters and wondered what your take on 'Frank and Jazz' and 'Brian, the Beach Boys and Jazz' might be.

Thank you in advance if you choose to answer these.

COMMENT:

1)   During the time I knew Frank Zappa the topic of jazz as a viable art form never came up. But as you said, he used jazz musicians, and used nomenclature characteristic of jazz writing. Many of the vamps by his band members were typical jazz renderings. I never heard him make negative remarks about their jazz vamps. Of course there are many different styles of jazz. So he may have liked some and not others. I can offer no definite statement by Frank on this topic.

2)   I never heard Brian listen to jazz music. That does not mean he does not like jazz. As far as jazz being an influence in either Zappa’s or Wilson’s writings, I’m sure it did influence them both to some extent. Jazz has influenced about every genre of music in the western world. But I think it is fair to say that both Frank Zappa and Brian Wilson have written music that can be classified as their own genre . . . music that transcends any generic jazz style. 

~swd

[JanBerryFarm]

Isn't "Rhapsody In Blue" jazz ?

Yes.

[ontor pertawst]

What a privilege, thanks for the detailed memories of a caffeine-crazed Frank bent on maximum productivity!

I'd pick touring with Zappa in that particular year over going to Holland as well, shameful to admit on a BB board... but that 1973 band was monstrous! Ian and Ruth, the mighty George Duke, Ponty squealing and scraping away! If Frank was all business, what about the band on tour? What sticks in your mind most about that ensemble?  Cue George Duke tinkling as you take up the tale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JNnmZmqGVU

sounds like Frank is calling out to you here at 1:43 -- "Steve..." -- a nice footnote to the thread!

[Stephen W. Desper]

Isn't "Rhapsody In Blue" jazz ?

Yes.

COMMENT:

Yes it is . . . and symphonic jazz is one of many styles of jazz.  And to be correct, I have heard Brian listen to Gershwin, although I never equated it with jazz, but it certainly is a form of jazz.

[urbanite]

"Off time he would usually be with a minimum of two woman..."  I guess that's what a musician's life is like.

[PhilSpectre]

You need to know how to read music to mix for Frank Zappa. 

I love this quote  . By all accounts, being in Frank Zappa's band and related musical environs was the musical equivalent of boot camp for all concerned. He really knew how to separate the men from the boys in recording/ live situations. I read he once tried to recruit most of the musicians in Parliament/ Funkadelic in the mid-70s including Bootsy Collins. As most of those guys had done time in James Brown's band, also renowned for it's leader's superhard regime including docked wages for wrong notes and not shined enough shoes, Frank clearly knew what he wanted out of his band members - ie the job done good but his way.

Thank you for your answers, sir. Interesting stuff. And I agree that both Zappa and Wilson have created their own musical genres and sound worlds, in a similar way to Duke Ellington did in an earlier age with his 'Ellingtonia'.

[Stephen W. Desper]

What a privilege, thanks for the detailed memories of a caffeine-crazed Frank bent on maximum productivity!

I'd pick touring with Zappa in that particular year over going to Holland as well, shameful to admit on a BB board... but that 1973 band was monstrous! Ian and Ruth, the mighty George Duke, Ponty squealing and scraping away! If Frank was all business, what about the band on tour? What sticks in your mind most about that ensemble?  Cue George Duke tinkling as you take up the tale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JNnmZmqGVU

sounds like Frank is calling out to you here at 1:43 -- "Steve..." -- a nice footnote to the thread!

COMMENT:   Thank you so much, ONTOR PERTAWSK for bringing this video to our attention. It was a real treat for me to see all my old friends again, and as I remember them back ... is it 40 years or more now?

Yes it is “yours truly” being spoken to at 1:43, but also around 2:28 you hear me in a discussion with Frank, via the monitor speakers, about Ruth playing Marimba or vibraphone right before the trumpet vamp. My score was marked wrong, so I missed a cue. What I saw on the score was not what I was hearing. Good thing it was a reversal!  I will say this; of all the musicians for whom I have mixed concerts (in my day the monitor mix and the house mix were handled by one person) Frank Zappa involved the sound mixer with a high degree of importance. As you can hear from this rehearsal video, the audio – even if it’s being recorded from the monitor speaker – is well defined. You can follow the instrument of your choice. Frank’s concert system was incredible, I must say. You could play it loud – plenty of power and speakers. But the close miking and absolute control the mixer had over every aspect of every single sound source could make for a clear but loud sound. It sounded so clear and detailed. Like everything under a microscope, being viewed in IMAX.  Ponte could play his violin with all these subtle changes, normally lost in accumulated mic leakage. This washes out the sound and masks details. But with Frank’s system, we went to extremes to isolate leakage . . . by close miking or magnetic pickup.  Ever hear an acoustic piano, a grand piano, blown up to 50,000 Watts?  You have to go to an Elton John concert to hear that now. Another benefit to the system was that stage-monitor speakers were everywhere playing the entire band. With everything so clear it was a joy to play within the stage-monitor ambience. However, if you wished to augment the stage sound with your own amp, that was OK and done --- by Frank among others. 

... but that 1973 band was monstrous!  I’ll say it was! A fabulous group with a leader, writer, arranger at the forefront of his craft.  Ian and Ruth, both lovely and loving people. They were married at this time. Ruth was especially happy to be in the band and practiced with Ian all the time  the mighty George Duke  What an honorable fellow George was/is. He is so talented, even in the band back then. He was distend to his own successful career.  Ponty squealing and scraping away! Jean Luc was kind and gentle. He traveled with a girl, I don’t know her relationship to him, but see too was a kind person, both of them were easy to be around. But his talent was fantastic to witness live. To stand right next to him and watch him play was captivating.  If Frank was all business, what about the band on tour?  No. Maybe I’ve given you the wrong impression. Zappa was his own man who recognized the same of his fellows. Frank was not “all business.” He was the head of his business, Discreet Productions, etc. So he was cost-conscience. Or more so than artists with managers. Time is money. Frank wanted maximum use of time, that is, don’t waste time. So it may seem serious, but it’s just good business practice. What sticks in your mind most about that ensemble?  Many things stick in my mind. It was a really, really, really good time in my life. Coming from surfing land, I knew little about his music, but I fell in love with it as I got into it, I saw where he was going and he knew that I was on the same page as his thinking, so we clicked . . . or had good chemistry. There was mutual respect. Having said that, what sticks out most was the departure of our trumpeter, who’s name I don’t remember. You can see him in the video, trumpet and trombone. One tour was more than half over. One day he thought Frank was back at the hotel, and was walking across the stage smoking a joint. Frank appeared, blocking his path. He said (paraphrasing) You know the rules. No drugs. You’re Fired. We’ll fly you back to LA on the first plane. This news traveled fast and soon we were all saying our goodbyes. Everyone was sort of stunned.  It was hard to imagine how the sets would work without this musician. But soon Ian was covering many of his parts. And it kinda limped along to the end.    

~swd

[I. Spaceman]

our trumpeter, who’s name I don’t remember. 

Sal Marquez? Amazing stuff you're sharing here, Stephen, thanks for that. I am a huge Zappa fan.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Mr Desper, I have a couple of questions for you.

1. In your many conversations with Frank Zappa, what was your impression of Frank's true attitude to jazz?

COMMENT:  You may find Frank's comments in his own words concerning his feelings toward jazz.  This video made at the time I was with the band.

FRANK ZAPPA 1973 Interview >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=4oWNRPuxK1I

~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

"Off time he would usually be with a minimum of two woman..."  I guess that's what a musician's life is like.

COMMENT:  Not one, not three, but two -- always two. ~swd

[Lowbacca]

Just for reference: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14303.0.html