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Has Brian ever listened to the first Mothers of Invention records back in the mid/late 60's? What did he think of Zappa's music in general (or vice versa)? Is anything known on that topic? Any anecdotes? Did they ever meet?


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Over the weekend I listened alot to Freak Out! and Absolutely Free - and while maybe being released a bit early ('66, '67) regarding Brian's real 'crazy phase', I somehow got the feeling that he would have liked a few of the tracks (some doo wop influence, weird lyrics and the Mothers being a band from California). Yet I can't recall ever hearing something about Brian and Zappa.



Sorry if this has been covered before but I couldn't find anything via search function.

I don't recall the exact quote, but he said he was a fan of Zappa in that Q&A session he did for the Gershwin album:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig20VnG5DpE

(it might've been part 2)

Yeah right, it's in the middle of part 2. I forgot about that. Thanks!

David Anderle, who used to hang out with Brian and Zappa in 1966, said something about how he showed an acetate of Absolutely Free to Brian, and how it totally freaked him (BW) out.
Also, I recall an interview where Brian called Zappa's music "evil".
(Don't ask me about sources, I read these on this board  :-D)

Another connection... kind of...

When she is asked to list her credentials to groupiedom, however, Gail laughs and suddenly becomes shy. "Well", she says "we knew the Byrds and the Beach Boys - I'd say Brian Wilson as a matter of fact. But", she continues "I think everyone who lived in Los Angeles and had anything to do with groups in '65, '66, could be classified as a groupie. I don't know if they knew what was motivating them, but I think, how else do you get it off your chest - this total fascination with the music business and being part of it at the same time? It was almost religious with the girls. They were the worshipers, and those guys were like priests on the altar". This is not to say, however, that there were not some sexual opportunists around at the time. "There were a lot of girls who were in it for the castle in England. That was a prevailing dream: I must have an English pop star and retire to one of those great houses in England".

Gail Zappa talking about her groupie/pre-FZ days, from the Rock Wives book (1986)

According to Miles' Zappa bio Gail had a fling with Brian sometimes in 1964-1965.

According to the same book Zappa's unmarked grave is in the neighbourhood of Carl's in the Westwood Village Memorial Park Cemetery at Glendone Ave.

Van Dyke Parks played very briefly with the Mothers pre-Freak Out, according to some sources. There used to be an interview on cabinessence.com from 1969 where the touring BBs praise Cruisin' With Ruben And The Jets and say they like Zappa's other stuff. And obviously there was a *lot* of overlap in their social/work circles (David Anderle, Mark Volman, Jim Guercio, the Wrecking Crew, Kim Fowley, Elliot Ingber, Nik Venet). So I'd be amazed if Brian hadn't been aware of at least the first couple of Mothers albums.

Zappa was also at least mildly interested in Brian's work -- there's a story in, I think, The Negative Dialectics Of Poodle Play where Zappa attended the mixdown for an album (I remember it as being Surfer Girl) and was disappointed that Brian wasn't at the mixdown despite his reputation as a great producer. Zappa also said in The Real Frank Zappa book that Little Deuce Coupe was the most exciting thing he'd ever heard in 'white-person' (his term) pop music, because it had a V-ii progression in it rather than the cliched ii-V (the change over the line "she's my little deuce coupe") -- he called it "an important step forward by going backwards".

A shame there's no recordings of VDP being introduced by Zappa as "Pinocchio."

Since I read that VDP's Mothers nickname was Pinocchio, I've sometimes wondered if Frank ever saw him in that old TV show Bonino, playing an Italian-American lad - or Van Dyke's appearances as Little Tommy Manicotti in The Honeymooners.

In some online interview a few years back, I think Brian said something about having seen the Mothers onstage in the '60s.  Given Brian's clubgoing habits in the middle of that decade, I'm thinking the spring or summer of '66 might have been the likeliest time for that.

Anyone ever ask Van Dyke about how this came about, anyway? Seems awful peculiar! Zappa didn't really like overly bright lads bursting with way too many ideas of their own in his bands, did he? As great as many of his players were, he wanted to be the only genius in the room with control, right?

Speaking of -- Little Feat. Wonder if Lowell George was who connected Frank and VDP. No, wait - his tenure was a 68-69ish...

If someone doesn't know, I think I have to bug Mr. Parks and find out!

When VDP was in the Mothers - and he says it was when Elliott Ingber was still in it, and it would have been before he and Brian started to work together, so I'd guess it was sometime in spring '66 - Frank would have expected two things from a keyboardist - an ability to read music, and at least a passing familiarity with doo-wop/'50s r&b (or in a pinch '50s jazz). VDP, as he'd be the first to admit, was not a jazzbo or a big r&b guy back then.  He had a pretty solid academic background in music, and did thoroughly know Varese, 12-tone stuff, and all that modern classical material that Frank loved....but, as Van Dyke has often said in interviews, he got into folk, then pop, partly to get away from playing the work of Schoenberg and his latter-day disciples. So it's not much of a surprise that what he wanted to do doesn't seem to have squared with what Frank expected him to do.

I'm certain I've read that Frank met Brian in the late sixties at some point but was put off by Wilson's drug taking. Doing drugs around Frank was a big no no.

I can see Brian really diggin' "Freak Out", and maybe tripping balls to albums such as "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" and "Lumpy Gravy".

The first time I listened to Lumpy Gravy and heard the "stuck in the piano voices", I immediately thought of the spoken experiments Brian was doing around Smile.

It was the other way round for me -- first time I heard Cabinessence I thought "that sounds like Absolutely Free (the track, not the album)".

Stephen Desper, who posts here and worked with both Wilson and Zappa can probably add some insight into this.

Domo arigato for all the information and anecdotes hitherto. I'm glad we're tunring up this much sh*t on the BBs/BW/Zappa connections.

So... Mr. Desper?  :)

There's an article in LLVS, circa '66, comparing/contrasting BBs & MOI, where Zappa is trashing on "Be True to Your School"...I feel like they might have had some Brian quotes about Zappa as well?  Can't remember.

Yeah, the 'Brian falls in a _______' tapes ALWAYS reminded me of Lumpy Gravy.

Speaking of the V-ii on LDC, there's also a brief pastiche of that song during "Brown shoes don't make it"

COMMENT:

Around the time of HOLLAND, American Productions (owned by the Beach Boy Corporation) sold the double-set large & powerful sound system(s) that I had designed and they had put many shows on with all over the world.  The house studio and equipment was to be dismantaled. New equipment was bought or built by engineer Moffett for the new Santa Monica Studio. The sound system, including its four consoles, 16 MacIntosh 1000 Watt amplifiers, 32 JBL speaker systems (2x15" low-end + phenolic dome mid + bullet high-end), and two Phillip effects devices, 60 mics, booms, 5000 feet of Neumann microphone cable in 25 and 50 foot lengths and a moving van full of custom-built Anvil travel cases were all sold to Frank Zappa Productions. He wanted to incorporate it into a more elaborate traveling system for pending worldwide tours.

I was not interested in traveling to Holland to make an album and Mike wanted to hire Moffett because he meditated and I did not. When the Beach Boys left the country and tore down the house studio, Zappa hired me to put together his sound system and mix for him on the road (and studio) for the next several years.  That was the Zappa band with George Duke, Jon Luc Ponty, Ian Underwood, etc. 

I have known Brian for many years and Zappa for several years. I have had many conversations with both men about their music on a creative level as it applies to concert presentations and studio creations. 

Given that background, ask me specific questions and I'll be glad to answer as best I can.

~Good Listening,  ~Stephen W. Desper

I'll leave the hyper-specific questions for everybody else, but thanks so much and let's get this started!

Generally, what would be the differences in their working process other than possibly Zappa's higher caffeine intake? How would a Frank Zappa approach the recording process in a way that Brian Wilson never would, and vice versa?

Stephen, that's something I've always wanted to ask you - how would you describe the differences between working with these two guys? Was Frank as strict as they say? Who would you say was the bigger perfectionist in the studio out of Brian (when motivated) and Frank?

Many thanks in advance.

COMMENT:  My comment to you combined with next question.  ~swd

COMMENT:  In a word; Brian Wilson is mostly concerned with emotional content and how the take affects you emotionally. Little imperfections are passed over if a take has a "good feeling" or is "in the groove." After three or four takes Brian moves on to something else, even if NO good take was forthcoming. He will return to the failed section after the emotional attachment of the performer has been reset -- usually by the passage of time. Typically Brian will get what he wants from his own vocals within one or two takes. Other performers a little longer, but not much.  Brian likes to experiment and "play" with the musicians on how a line or section could be played. He will ask for suggestions and ideas. Then after taking it all in, makes up his mind. He works with an outline or chord progression of the song with a melody line. The rest usually evolves with continuous experimentation, slowly taking shape. His vocal arrangements were early all his, but as the band matured became more theirs and his.

Mr. Zappa is mostly concerned with the technical content and how it fits in with his overall plan. Imperfections are not tolerated, however many takes are tolerated. Frank usually has the song completely scored. Not just chord progression, but actual notes on a score sheet -- the playing from which may not be deviated. However, vamp sections within each song, for specific instruments is specified in bar lengths. Within each vamp, the player is allowed to do as they wish, hopefully playing around the general melody or hook, if there is one.   

By way of example; a soundcheck with Brian is as easy as "here are some chords from my piano and testing -1-2-3 there's the mic level."  It was very different with Frank. First every connection must work before the soundcheck even begins. Then each person plays his or her part for levels. Then he would pick parts of songs that need practice (either by musicians or the sound mixer). This could go in for an hour or so. Once you get it right, Frank would want it again and again to make certain you know what he wants and will do it that way in concert.  Concert mixing for Zappa was ten times more demanding than for the Beach Boys.

About the same can be said for studio recording.  Frank had it all planned out and on paper.  Brian has it outlined and in his head. Frank would run the whole show. Brian depends on a team of supporting people.  Remember it's "Frank Zappa and this or that band."  But with Brian it's The Beach Boys, not Brian and The Beach Boys.  Frank was the leader of a band.  Brian was/is a member of a band.

Both men demanded attention when giving directions. But Brian would tolerate some fooling around and deviation from the task at hand. Zappa would not. You had better not be taking when Frank was talking and giving someone else directions. This is not to say that working with Frank was a drag -- or as serious as going to church, because Frank had a wonderful sense of humor. So along with being serious and paying attention there was room for laughter and joking.  A Brian Wilson session is a little more loose. There's plenty of joking around, but the one person who is serious is Brian. He jokes little. He tolerates more joking around then Frank, but retains that earnest and solemn demeanor.

~swd

   

Fascinating glimpse, it really paints a vivid picture of Zappa at work. Was Frank curious about your work with Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys and did you guys talk shop about it? If so, what did he think of Brian's work?

His opinions about music were always so scathing, witty, and generally memorable regardless of them being praise or scorn...

I can imagine how demanding it must have been to do his concert mixing during that period -- my god, with such a crack band. One of his top lineups of all time, for sure. What was touring Zappa like as opposed to the studio creature? Obviously he was just as fanatically dedicated to proper execution of his scores during the concerts, but what about the offtime? Did he loosen up a bit or was it really that 200 Motels voyeuristic act, clutching a tape recorder and smirking with anthropological interest at the band's exploits?

Many thanks for the reply, it really creates a mental picture of two masters at play and how they both had very different approaches/outlooks on how to get the best out of those around them. Again thanks.

Mr Desper, I have a couple of questions for you.

1. In your many conversations with Frank Zappa, what was your impression of Frank's true attitude to jazz? Did he really dislike the music as a form, as he often claimed? Even though a significant number of his recordings could be said to have a 'jazz' feel to them, and used musicians famously associated with jazz, such as George Duke and Jean-Luc Ponty.

Frank was often mocking towards jazz in general on stage and in interviews, yet composed pieces like 'The Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue', an apparent tribute to the late jazz sax player of 'Out to Lunch' fame and much of Frank's early '70's output can musically be described as 'jazz rock' or 'jazz fusion'. Was Frank's attitude to jazz more open and positive when in private or in his recording/ rehearsing situations? You say he was very strict on how every note he wrote should be played in the studio; how much freedom would he give his players to improvise on stage? Was improvisation allowed to some band members for a few bars strictly on his say-so?

2. Meanwhile, Brian Wilson has often mentioned the Four Freshmen and Rosemary Clooney as early influences and he often uses 'advanced' chords that are also associated with jazz and classical music, and has employed jazz and swing styles in his recordings, such as his collaborations with Four Freshmen arranger Dick Reynolds on the mid-'60s Beach Boys Christmas album and 1976-77 recordings such as 'Still I Dream of It' and 'It's Over Now. It would appear that jazz or 'jazz pop', especially of the 1950s is part of Brian's musical DNA.

So, how great an influence would you say jazz had/has on Brian Wilson in his music and arrangements?

I apologise if my questions are a little specialised, but I have heard and read conflicting views on these matters and wondered what your take on 'Frank and Jazz' and 'Brian, the Beach Boys and Jazz' might be.

Thank you in advance if you choose to answer these.

Think that quote might have come from me.  Brian had come by my place in Santa Monica after a session at Brother Studio, (he & Dennis both loved playing this upright that my Grandma had given me, that I trucked out from Brooklyn), and, after he finished playing for awhile, I asked him if he'd heard this track of Zappa's that I loved, called The Orange County Lumber Truck  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEmZlAB8V08  He slipped on my headphones, but after a matter of seconds, he ripped them from his head and screamed, "Aaargh, devil music!"

COMMENT:  Fascinating glimpse, it really paints a vivid picture of Zappa at work. Was Frank curious about your work with Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys and did you guys talk shop about it? If so, what did he think of Brian's work? My impression was that Frank was not very interested in anything but his own work – at least to me. He never discussed my work with The Beach Boys in detail. I do not know what he thought of Brian’s work.

His opinions about music were always so scathing, witty, and generally memorable regardless of them being praise or scorn...

I can imagine how demanding it must have been to do his concert mixing during that period -- my god, with such a crack band. One of his top lineups of all time, for sure. The first and immediate demands falling on me were for selection, connection and maintenance of the touring system. When combined with the original American Productions system, the total touring system was mostly expanded to accommodate all the instruments on stage from the band. Otherwise there was plenty of power and speakers for any venue on the booking. I bought several – maybe six or seven – additional consoles of 25 to 50 inputs each. These consoles were mounted vertically to the walls of the sound truck for domestic tours or transported in cases that remained unopened but vented for international tours. You see there were over 350 independent sources of sound coming off stage. These sources were sub-mixed in their respective consoles before being sent to the house mixing console. For example, Ruth’s vibraphone had a mics permanently affixed so as to pickup the sound of each of the bars making up the entire vibraphone. These were all balanced, EQed and pre-panned in the vib-console. The house mixer got a two-channel feed. The drums were all close miked, including each cymbal. These were all balanced, EQed and pre-panned in the drum-console. The house mixer got a two-channel mix of all drums except the kick(s) and the snare. So four feeds came to the house mixer of stereo drums, snare and kick. Another console handled all of George Duke’s synthesizers with a two-channel mix sent to the house. Same true for the brass section. The acoustic piano used a Countryman custom pickup that spanned the entire width of the piano. In essence, each piano string has a coil pickup (same as used on a solid-body guitar) over it. And, they all had to be balanced and panned. The reason for using pickups rather than close miking with several microphones is that with the coil pickups there was absolutely no acoustic leakage from the other instruments that might wash-out the sound of, say the drums or guitars. Since every instrument was close-miked or picked up by a coil, it meant that stage monitors could operated at a very high level without feedback worries. This is before in-ear monitoring was even heard of. Frank hated feedback. Only once during my time with him did some source get out of control and ring. Frank stopped the show and articulated me a new asshole for the enlightenment of the audience and the band one night when he heard the ringing. It took about five minutes of testing to figure out what of the 350 inputs was the culprit, but to credit his desire for perfection, Frank was the type of guy who would not settle for second best. Nope! He stopped the show and had the problem fixed. Then restarted the song from the beginning – and proceeded with the sound as it should have been. Frank knew how many cues I was dealing with and that I would have no time to contend with the ringing . . . which would only mean that some cues would be missed if I tried to fix it on the fly. With a show this complex, if you want it right you have to stop and fix the problem. So with Frank there were second takes in concert. If the band came in late for a cue or they were not all together for the downbeat, in other words were not playing tight enough for him, he would stop the song right during the show and demand that a player or players pay attention, then start the song again. If you were a member of the audience he was going to make certain that you got a good performance that night. No mistakes allowed. Only re-starts.

Somewhere in my storage of things related to Zappa are the mixer’s cue sheets for all the songs in his concert repertoire. These are the bars in the score of each song where a change in level or signal routing is required. These changes come along about every other bar or measure, but sometimes there were two or three cues within a measure. Believe me, I was a busy fellow – no time for just sitting and listening. You need to know how to read music to mix for Frank Zappa. 

What was touring Zappa like as opposed to the studio creature?  About the same. He was in charge. He had a definite idea about how he wanted his music to be presented. Which is OK because Frank was a very smart guy.

Obviously he was just as fanatically dedicated to proper execution of his scores during the concerts, but what about the offtime? Did he loosen up a bit or was it really that 200 Motels voyeuristic act, clutching a tape recorder and smirking with anthropological interest at the band's exploits?  No, none of that. He would joke around with the band members when waiting around in airports or at restaurants. Off time he would usually be with a minimum of two woman and his thermos of coffee. Towards the end of my last tour with him, he was writing his symphonic work. Every available moment he would work on it. If we had a twenty-minute wait for a bus or something, he would breakout his big folder, and spread out the score sheets. You would see him over in a corner, madly marking down notes and erasing others in refinement. This was a score for a symphony orchestra, so the score sheets were quite large.  

~swd

COMMENT:

1)   During the time I knew Frank Zappa the topic of jazz as a viable art form never came up. But as you said, he used jazz musicians, and used nomenclature characteristic of jazz writing. Many of the vamps by his band members were typical jazz renderings. I never heard him make negative remarks about their jazz vamps. Of course there are many different styles of jazz. So he may have liked some and not others. I can offer no definite statement by Frank on this topic.

2)   I never heard Brian listen to jazz music. That does not mean he does not like jazz. As far as jazz being an influence in either Zappa’s or Wilson’s writings, I’m sure it did influence them both to some extent. Jazz has influenced about every genre of music in the western world. But I think it is fair to say that both Frank Zappa and Brian Wilson have written music that can be classified as their own genre . . . music that transcends any generic jazz style. 

~swd

Isn't "Rhapsody In Blue" jazz ?

Yes.

What a privilege, thanks for the detailed memories of a caffeine-crazed Frank bent on maximum productivity!

I'd pick touring with Zappa in that particular year over going to Holland as well, shameful to admit on a BB board... but that 1973 band was monstrous! Ian and Ruth, the mighty George Duke, Ponty squealing and scraping away! If Frank was all business, what about the band on tour? What sticks in your mind most about that ensemble?  Cue George Duke tinkling as you take up the tale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JNnmZmqGVU

sounds like Frank is calling out to you here at 1:43 -- "Steve..." -- a nice footnote to the thread!

COMMENT:

Yes it is . . . and symphonic jazz is one of many styles of jazz.  And to be correct, I have heard Brian listen to Gershwin, although I never equated it with jazz, but it certainly is a form of jazz.

"Off time he would usually be with a minimum of two woman..."  I guess that's what a musician's life is like.

I love this quote  8) . By all accounts, being in Frank Zappa's band and related musical environs was the musical equivalent of boot camp for all concerned. He really knew how to separate the men from the boys in recording/ live situations. I read he once tried to recruit most of the musicians in Parliament/ Funkadelic in the mid-70s including Bootsy Collins. As most of those guys had done time in James Brown's band, also renowned for it's leader's superhard regime including docked wages for wrong notes and not shined enough shoes, Frank clearly knew what he wanted out of his band members - ie the job done good but his way.

Thank you for your answers, sir. Interesting stuff. And I agree that both Zappa and Wilson have created their own musical genres and sound worlds, in a similar way to Duke Ellington did in an earlier age with his 'Ellingtonia'.

COMMENT:   Thank you so much, ONTOR PERTAWSK for bringing this video to our attention. It was a real treat for me to see all my old friends again, and as I remember them back ... is it 40 years or more now?

Yes it is “yours truly” being spoken to at 1:43, but also around 2:28 you hear me in a discussion with Frank, via the monitor speakers, about Ruth playing Marimba or vibraphone right before the trumpet vamp. My score was marked wrong, so I missed a cue. What I saw on the score was not what I was hearing. Good thing it was a reversal!  I will say this; of all the musicians for whom I have mixed concerts (in my day the monitor mix and the house mix were handled by one person) Frank Zappa involved the sound mixer with a high degree of importance. As you can hear from this rehearsal video, the audio – even if it’s being recorded from the monitor speaker – is well defined. You can follow the instrument of your choice. Frank’s concert system was incredible, I must say. You could play it loud – plenty of power and speakers. But the close miking and absolute control the mixer had over every aspect of every single sound source could make for a clear but loud sound. It sounded so clear and detailed. Like everything under a microscope, being viewed in IMAX.  Ponte could play his violin with all these subtle changes, normally lost in accumulated mic leakage. This washes out the sound and masks details. But with Frank’s system, we went to extremes to isolate leakage . . . by close miking or magnetic pickup.  Ever hear an acoustic piano, a grand piano, blown up to 50,000 Watts?  You have to go to an Elton John concert to hear that now. Another benefit to the system was that stage-monitor speakers were everywhere playing the entire band. With everything so clear it was a joy to play within the stage-monitor ambience. However, if you wished to augment the stage sound with your own amp, that was OK and done --- by Frank among others. 

... but that 1973 band was monstrous!  I’ll say it was! A fabulous group with a leader, writer, arranger at the forefront of his craft.  Ian and Ruth, both lovely and loving people. They were married at this time. Ruth was especially happy to be in the band and practiced with Ian all the time  the mighty George Duke  What an honorable fellow George was/is. He is so talented, even in the band back then. He was distend to his own successful career.  Ponty squealing and scraping away! Jean Luc was kind and gentle. He traveled with a girl, I don’t know her relationship to him, but see too was a kind person, both of them were easy to be around. But his talent was fantastic to witness live. To stand right next to him and watch him play was captivating.  If Frank was all business, what about the band on tour?  No. Maybe I’ve given you the wrong impression. Zappa was his own man who recognized the same of his fellows. Frank was not “all business.” He was the head of his business, Discreet Productions, etc. So he was cost-conscience. Or more so than artists with managers. Time is money. Frank wanted maximum use of time, that is, don’t waste time. So it may seem serious, but it’s just good business practice. What sticks in your mind most about that ensemble?  Many things stick in my mind. It was a really, really, really good time in my life. Coming from surfing land, I knew little about his music, but I fell in love with it as I got into it, I saw where he was going and he knew that I was on the same page as his thinking, so we clicked . . . or had good chemistry. There was mutual respect. Having said that, what sticks out most was the departure of our trumpeter, who’s name I don’t remember. You can see him in the video, trumpet and trombone. One tour was more than half over. One day he thought Frank was back at the hotel, and was walking across the stage smoking a joint. Frank appeared, blocking his path. He said (paraphrasing) You know the rules. No drugs. You’re Fired. We’ll fly you back to LA on the first plane. This news traveled fast and soon we were all saying our goodbyes. Everyone was sort of stunned.  It was hard to imagine how the sets would work without this musician. But soon Ian was covering many of his parts. And it kinda limped along to the end.    

~swd

Sal Marquez? Amazing stuff you're sharing here, Stephen, thanks for that. I am a huge Zappa fan.

COMMENT:  You may find Frank's comments in his own words concerning his feelings toward jazz.  This video made at the time I was with the band.

FRANK ZAPPA 1973 Interview >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=4oWNRPuxK1I

~swd

COMMENT:  Not one, not three, but two -- always two. ~swd

Just for reference: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14303.0.html  :3d