The Peter Ames Carlin Thread

[Glenn Greenberg]

This *is* the same guy who took a picture of himself pretending to eat his shoes.

I wanna see that picture!

It's in both editions of the Leaf book.

Which I don't have...

[mistermono]

Peter, you mention in the book that there was a problem with Frank Holmes doing the artwork for BWPS that prompted him to walk away from the project.  Could you elaborate further?

[JRauch]

I've heard that he wanted too much money.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Just to set this record straight, Frank was never paid by either Capitol or the band for all his work back in 1966/7, thus when approached to use the original artwork for BWPS, this was a factor influencing the sum he requested. Brian's management declined his offer.

[Mlondon]

Just to set this record straight, Frank was never paid by either Capitol or the band for all his work back in 1966/7, thus when approached to use the original artwork for BWPS, this was a factor influencing the sum he requested. Brian's management declined his offer.

Normally you do set the record straight Andrew.
But not this time.
As I recall, this subject came up when I began the project in 2004 and I told you then that Frank
was paid by Brian himself for the art and also has made a few $$ selling lithos of the the original
cover for years (I have one myself, it's awesome!) Your reply was "I stand corrected."
Also let me tell you how thrilled I was to be given due credit in Peter's book.....oh, whatya know,
not even a mention. Oh well, maybe if it was a historically higher profile gig....

~ Mark London

[Andrew G. Doe]

Mark, I stand corrected. Again. 

In mitigation, two years ago is a long time for me. I recall my source for today's statement (Frank in private conversation with a friend). Must have a word or two.

[Mlondon]

Can't say who your friend is, but this is coming directly from my conversation with
Frank when I flew to San Francisco to begin the "coming soon to a face near you"
announcement with him (the only actual SMilE work we did together: a T-shirt and
a now heavily bootlegged poster for the UK...thanks E-Bay!!)

P.S.
Your "do what thou wilt" quote by Aleister Crowley; Isn't that
taking the 'Rock & Roll is the Devil's Music" thing pretty deep?!

Keep up the good...er....work Andrew!

~ ML ~

[Daniel S.]

So if it wasn't about money, how come Mr. Holmes wasn't back to do the artwork in 2004? Even if they felt the original work was too closely associated with the past, did they think of having him do new artwork for the album?

[Jeff Mason]

So if it wasn't about money, how come Mr. Holmes wasn't back to do the artwork in 2004? Even if they felt the original work was too closely associated with the past, did they think of having him do new artwork for the album?

Mark never said it wasn't about the money -- he merely pointed out that Holmes was paid for his work originally.  But when it came time to *re-license* the work (which was necessary), Wilson and Holmes couldn't agree on a price.  Thus Mark did his work.  Frankly, I think I like Mark's work better.  It fits the feel better for the newer rendition.  Holmes' work is very 60's-ish, while Mark's is more consciously "Americana" a la the album's themes.

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

Welcome to the board, Mark!

[Mlondon]

Thanks Charles & Thanks Jeff!

I haven't posted on anything in a couple of years.
I'll never compare my work to Frank's though.
I love Frank's vibe, style and approach.
To say it was a tall order to fill is an understatement.

There were times when I was doing the work, that I could
actually physically feel the anticipation of the (music)
world and my palm was sweating so much I could barely
grip my own damn pen! I had my pal Dennis Loren there
to help keep me at an even keel (Dennis was my "mac"
connection; to gather the art files and pages and organize
them in his mac for the printer... yup, I do it all on PC...big
no-no in the music biz usually!) I chose the early Americana
approach because obviously I couldn't/wouldn't try to copy
Frank, and if I chose to do random abstract/freeform paintings
as I've since seen other artists  post...well, I think that the music
is freeform/abstract enough, the package would've presented
itself as just plain confusing!

The only reason it resembled anything from the original was
because I started the project with Frank, and we were gonna
continue where he left off. By the time negotiations broke down,
I didn't have the time to start over (don't forget, I did have a huge
history/tour program to do on a deadline...this was before we even
knew there would be a studio recording) So I thought of what
visions Van may have had flying through his 1966 mind before he
invited Frank on board, and ran out and got those amazing antique
figures- one for each song, and some old agricultural catalogs and
threw my own little whammy on them.

Anyway, thanks for the welcome and letting me set the
record straight again about the most important work of
my life so far (even if I don't exist in Peter's book)

~ ML ~

[Rocker]

Welcome Mark ! You did a great job with the BWPS-artwork !

If they had used Holme's original I think Mike would have another point in his recent lawsuit, because it had the Beach Boys' name on it and was over the years associated with them.

[Dan Lega]

     Just a little more on Frank Holmes and the deal that fell through.  (Where is the archive with all this stuff for new folks to go through?!)

     Management (essentially Melinda, I believe) kept asking Frank what dollar amount he thought he should get if they used his art.  Frank then asked how and how much they were going to use his art?  Was this a license for all time or a one time use in the program booklet?  Management came back and only asked how money he needed.  Frank asked again for clarification of how and how much they were going to use his art.  Management again asked only how much he needed.  Well, Frank threw out a ball park number -- which was equivalent to what it was costing for them to pay wages and costs of one member of the band for a month and a half.  Frank thought if they didn't like that number that they would then finally come in and discuss his questions and try to see if they could out a mutually agreeable deal.  However, management just flatly refused his offer.  No discussion whatsoever.  Just a "We think that's way too much money to ask.  Goodbye."

      ... and that was that.

            Love and merci,   Dan Lega

[Smilin Ed H]

Pity.  The ironic (and unjust) aspect is that we all have his art on the bootlegs!

[Mlondon]

However, management just flatly refused his offer.  No discussion whatsoever.
Just a "We think that's way too much money to ask.  Goodbye." ... and that was that.

Hey Dan Lega how are ya? It wasn't quite like that. Frank got a lawyer involved.
Anyone else wouldn't think it such a bad idea, but I would not recommend it as
the best way to re-introduce or endear yourself to the Wilsons after 35 years.
To me that's like reforming your relationship with Superman with a gift of Kryptonite.

If they had used Holme's original I think Mike would have another point in his recent lawsuit,
because it had the Beach Boys' name on it and was over the years associated with them

Thanks Rocker, you may have a good point there.
To quote the immortal Hunter Thompson; "Call on God...but row away from the rocks."

The ironic (and unjust) aspect is that we all have his art on the bootlegs!

Have you seen the art Frank sells on his site? Doesn't look too bootleg to me!

Thanks Guys,

~ ML ~

[HeyJude]

I'm curious, because I guess I didn't pay as much attention to the artwork issue back a couple of years ago, what exactly would the use of Frank Holmes' art have consisted of? In other words, would Brian's 2004 "Smile" program and eventual album cover have used Holmes' original Beach Boys/Capitol cover artwork, with Brian's name substituted for the Beach Boys' name? Or would Holmes' potential involvement have consisted of him working on new booklet illustrations and perhaps using some of the old illustrations?

I love the Holmes' cover art (I have a litho print on the wall), but I'm glad that the 2004 artwork was all different. Frankly, it would have put me off quite a bit if the 2004 CD release had simply used the old album cover with BW's name in place of the BB's. As someone who immensely enjoy's BW's 2004 recording yet was and still am very concerned about the 2004 recording's place in history in relation to the original recordings, I was and am all for making the 2004 version very much a new/different/2004 creation, and I was glad to see that there was no attempt on the 2004 version to simply use the same artwork and erase the BB's name and insert BW.

Hopefully, if we ever see a boxed set release of the original BB recordings, we might get another chance to see the Holmes artwork.

PS: A bit of my own commentary regarding bringing a lawyer into negotiations, I would have to say given the history of Brian and the BB's and all of the supposed/alleged business issues over the years, I would never *not* at least have a lawyer available to me if I was making any business deals with them. It seems a bit strange that all of the BB's feel they are allowed to have a Rutles-style collection of lawyers, yet any of them would be put off by somebody else having a lawyer. I don't know what went down with Holmes specifically, but the actual idea of having a lawyer available is something I think anybody should do. Perhaps simple negotiations regarding artwork could be handled by an agent rather than a lawyer, but having legal advice and representation is not always a bad thing, especially when you're dealing with another side that has what I would imagine is plenty of the same.

[Dr. Tim]

Some artistes/managers are very leery of dealing with a lawyer at the start of a discussion - even if they're lawyers themselves!  It sounds like the mistake, if there was one, was having the lawyer make the first contact to management.  Having one around was not the sin, but having the lawyer be the first contact was.   I could see where that would be off-putting to people who are lawsuit-scarred and are fearful of yet another one.  Many dealmakers I know prefer to get to a handshake deal, then have the lawyer be the scrivener or advise of any potential pitfalls.  Unfortunately there's no way to tell who'd get offended until they do and then when they are you can't "fix" it.   

[Dan Lega]

   Where did you read that the first contact was made by Frank's lawyer?  No one said that.  In fact, Mark said Frank and he were working together and produced a T-shirt before complications set in.


          Love and merci,   Dan Lega

[Dr. Tim]

Dan, I don't know.  Don't pretend to, never have.  I inferred it from this snippet of Mark's post above:

"Frank got a lawyer involved.
Anyone else wouldn't think it such a bad idea, but I would not recommend it as
the best way to re-introduce or endear yourself to the Wilsons after 35 years."

-- And I was just making a general comment based on that.  I don't pass myself off as one of the scholars or insiders here, just a mook with a keyboard.

[Mlondon]

I think the timeline got lost in translation.
The day I got an E-Mail saying "we need SMiLE art" was the day
I got Frank's phone number and flew up north the next morning.
We both got a fee for the announcment poster/shirt collaboration...
this was a tight deadline, the whole project came very suddenly.

After that, when Brian went to the UK for the announcment where the
poster was printed and distributed (those are the bootleg ones floating
around E-Bay) We began to negotiate for the tour merchandise (don't
forget; no album planned at this point) I don't even think Van Dyke had
been called by Brian & Darian yet.

We were waiting for an offer to come from Brian's office, and in the
meantime, Frank had come to L.A. for family reasons and met with
Van Dyke...I suggested that they might call Brian and Melinda and
go over for a basic hangout/lunch/reunion...but that didn't happen.
I was insanely busy gathering material; archival photos etc...and we
were still waiting for word from the office, when Frank became a little
impatient (understandable) and shot the letter from his lawyer.
When I heard that, I really wished he had gone and visited with the
Wilson's for an hour when he was in town. Just felt a little cold to me.

This is the way I remember it....my story....
I don't and won't speak for anyone else but myself.

Frank did show me recent SMILE art, around 8 or so more songs
that he illustrated, that was to be for a Capitol box set for I guess
sometime in the late 1980's which got canceled for whatever reasons.
He does not have the original '66 art and doesn't know who does...but
it is true that if we had used all of Franks stuff for 2004, there would
be nothing to use for Capitol if they ever did decide to do a box set in
the future. Looking back now almost 3 years later, I am glad I went
in the new direction, and yes, it would've been a little wierd to drop
Bri's name over where the Beach Boys name used to be....MY only
regret will always be that we couldn't find a way to do achieve my
original idea for the cover...which was not to do the SMiLE letters in
blue foil....but to do them in a more reflective blue mirror...so when
you picked up SMiLE for the first time, you would see your own huge
smile right in the middle of the CD, that was my vision.
Oh yeah...and the fact that the UK never asked for my direction when
they did the "special" shadow box package...I had nothing to do with it.

~ ML ~

[MBE]

Hey ML your art looks great on the vinyl version!

[Dan Lega]

     So I finished Peter's book.  The best parts were the "Brian in high school" stories, and what seemed to me to be new info from David Sandler, Stan Love, and Andy Paley.  Am I right that these guys were all interviewed newly for this book?

     I'd have to guess that Cam and his cohorts are not going to like this book in the least, though.  Mike Love seems to be painted as the "villain" of the story just as much, or more, than he was in David Leaf's book.  Now this doesn't bother me in the least, as I think Mike has made some really stupid choices through the years.  But I don't think it's going to sit well with some members of this board.

      Anyway, it's a very nice addition to the growing Beach Boys bookshelf.  I'm eagerly awaiting the David Marks book now.  Hopefully both of these books will sell quite well and open the gates up for even more books about our favorite band!


                 Love and merci,   Dan Lega


 

[MBE]

I think Mike comes off better in this then the Leaf. At least his background is explored and his rebutles are included. I expected this to be a Brian centric book but it does praise everyone else in some respects far more then Leaf.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think the most revisionist thinking in Peter's book is directed at Carl. Granted he had his own considerable problems at the time, but the impression (intentional or not) is that, circa 1975/6 and after trying for some years, he just looked at Brian and went, "ah, f*** it" and concentrated on the band and his own life. Frankly, in his position, I think I'd do exactly the same.

[MBE]

I think Carl is a very unexplored person and from most accounts a good one. I think Brian resented their mother favoring Carl, but I think they cared for one another.

That said I would like to present a theory on what Carl may have been thinking my equating it to my oldest friend. He is an addict and while I never would turn my back completely on him there was a point where I saw my help wasn't doing him any good.  At first I wanted to think he would get well,  but now I see him going downhill and there is nothing I can do unless he wants to get better. I call it tough love and while I would always help if asked, I am not going out of my way anymore. I think that when Brian backslid in 78-82 and then when he let Landy convince him to put distance between himself and his family Carl had enough. As far as 1995 goes I don't know what may have happened. I can guess that perhaps  Carl felt exluded from Brian's new life.