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Author Topic: The Peter Ames Carlin Thread  (Read 147578 times)
Cam Mott
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« Reply #375 on: September 10, 2006, 03:58:49 PM »

I was thinking it was Brian's sort of compulsiveness or excessiveness that had Lorren concerned rather than mental illness.
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« Reply #376 on: September 10, 2006, 11:26:24 PM »

The definition of addiction according to the World Health Organization and also many other health organizations is "obsessive and compulsive use of chemicals or activities to alter moods the the degree that such behavior results in ongoing negative life consequences."

In the DSM-IV TR, addiction is classified an an Axis I Disorder, right along schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, post traumatic stress disorder, and amxiety, among many others. In other words, "mental illness."
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #377 on: September 11, 2006, 03:02:56 AM »

Uh huh and even though Lorren wasn't necessarily diagnosing mental illness, he recognized traits in Brian which gave him pause in this regard.
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Peter Ames Carlin
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« Reply #378 on: September 11, 2006, 07:56:23 AM »

Cam: I think you're overinterpretating what Loren said, vis-a-vis what Loren actually felt back in the day. His reticence to turn Brian on -- if that actually happened in quite the way he now says it did -- probably had more to do with the fact that Brian was younger and less experienced/sophisticated than the rest of his friends. I don't think he knew him well enough at the point to guess that Brian's grumbling about his old man and the record company and the pressures of being a huge rock star was seen then as par for the course. He was, after the all, the epicentre of a hugely successful, high-profit industry. But the sense that Brian might have serious mental illness didn't occur to anyone 'til '68 or so. And even then denial/misunderstanding defined most responses.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #379 on: September 11, 2006, 08:45:47 AM »

I'm trying to say that Lorren wasn't reluctant because he thought Brian was mentally ill but because of the personality traits he saw in Brian. Maybe I'm not following you or I may not be remembering it right.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2006, 10:18:32 AM by Cam Mott » Logged

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« Reply #380 on: September 11, 2006, 10:03:30 AM »

Thanx Peter, it seems the inability to seperate the "then" from the "then", form the "now" is very difficult.  I do understand it, I just don't seem as able to address it as you do, so well.
I tend to respond in anecdotes from "the day" to try and give the younger folk a perspective.  It really was a larger and yet smaller world for us coming of age then.  We were truly "in it together" more than anytime since.
It never fails to amaze me how a young guy like yourself really, really "gets it".  Maybe you actually pay attention when other people speak.  I'm only being slightly sarcastic.  You really do hear what is said, even by "old folks".
"Obsession" and "compulsion" are symtoms of the "dysfuction"/disease that Brian suffered.  They are now words used as synonyms, to describe behavioral imbalances/eccentric behavior (whatever that is?) so I do   understand the confusion.  It just seems that blaming drugs for ALL of Brian's issues makes the solution so simple.  "Stop taking drugs", blame the people who supplied them, and ignore, ONE MORE TIME, the genetic and environmental issues that honestly have had considerably more influence on "the problem" than 3 LSD trips and a "hat full" of pot leaves.
So, once again I will insist that the original "lock up" of Brian in 1968 is/was far more detrimental to his on going mental health than any of we'uns
seem willing to admit.
 
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« Reply #381 on: September 11, 2006, 11:34:45 AM »

I guess we "fans" are addicted to blaming someone for Brian's problems.

sh*t happens.
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« Reply #382 on: September 11, 2006, 02:13:59 PM »

I think we're simply splitting hairs here. The original line of thought was more about how various books, documentaries, interviews, etc. have created differing viewpoints as to what happened to Brian Wilson. That is inevitable. When David Leaf chooses to use one portion of an interview and not another, then edits two pieces of film together, that is creating a viewpoint. Same thing happened when Peter wrote his book. That inevitable viewpoint is what we're debating. Do I think psychedelic drugs are to blame for Brian's downfall? No, clearly the mental illness was there. At the same time, I think Daro is, or is made to, come off somewhat unsympathetic when he laughs about Brian's acid freakout. That's a comment on both Daro himself and on how that interview segment was chosen and presented in the documentary.

Bob, I appreciate your posts and sympathize with your viewpoint almost wholeheartedly; I'm just not sure all of us here are talking about the same subject.
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« Reply #383 on: September 21, 2006, 01:26:11 PM »

Hey peter.

Thanks for the amazing book, I couldint put it down, and im glad that it is selling very well
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« Reply #384 on: September 28, 2006, 09:01:34 AM »

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but congratulations Peter on the nice writeup in Rolling Stone! Very nice publicity indeed.

hp
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« Reply #385 on: September 28, 2006, 11:45:55 AM »

Quote: " A well- composed book is a magic carpet on which we are wafted to a world that we cannot enter in any other way."

Thanks Peter.

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Peter Ames Carlin
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« Reply #386 on: September 28, 2006, 02:57:39 PM »

Hi guys: thanks for mentioning that, I caught up with that issue of 'RS' yesterday, and what a pleasant surprise. You can also find a nice mention in this week's Willamette Week newspaper. Or you could if you live in Portland, Oregon. Though you can also find it at wweek.com, if you're interested.

Me, I'm digging the new Todd Snider album, and the new Dylan, and this Warren Zevon tribute ("Enjoy Every Sandwich") that a guy turned me onto when I was hyping the book in L.A. in August. Delta Sky magazine will have a piece on the book, and an excerpt, in the October issue, in case you're flying then. And, oh yeah, I'm going to do a few readings at Borders stores here in the Northwest centered on "Pet Sounds" and "Good Vibrations," their history and significance and blah-blah-blah. Portland on Oct. 19; probably Eugene and possibly Seattle to come. Stay tuned.
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« Reply #387 on: September 28, 2006, 07:40:18 PM »

Quote
At the same time, I think Daro is, or is made to, come off somewhat unsympathetic when he laughs about Brian's acid freakout. That's a comment on both Daro himself and on how that interview segment was chosen and presented in the documentary.

Can I be honest? Brian's problems are not funny. His years of drug addiction at the very least are not funny. That said...looking back at that segment now (I rewatched the doc yesterday...I was out of town for my job and was trying to relax at the hotel) I actually DID find it funny, more for Brian's statement after it was over "Well, that's enough of THAT". It's funny, because I can actually picture Brian saying that, completely deadpan, just very matter-of-fact. Just like a few days ago...one of my coworkers was helping me doing an installation at a customer's house (I work for AT&T's U-Verse division) and he stepped in a bed of fire ants. Very aggressive fire ants, mind you. Poor Tom was just screaming...hopped the fence (nobody lived in the house next door)...stripped down, and had me get his change of clothes from the back of the van and toss it over the fence to him. When he came back around, I asked him how he was. He responded with something like "That...was not my proudest moment", or something like that. Just the way he said it...we both ended up cracking up laughing.

So, anyway, I don't think Brian having a bad trip was funny, but his response was, to me anyway. I think that's what Loren was laughing at.
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Peter Ames Carlin
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« Reply #388 on: September 28, 2006, 08:12:11 PM »

Well, my sense was that Brian wasn't having a bad trip. He was having a hell of a trip, to be sure, and his mind was thoroughly blown. But he dug it enough to do it again. And he spoke positively about it for many years.  But that was LSD, which he hardly ever did. His use of uppers and cocaine were way more serious, and way less amusing.
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« Reply #389 on: September 28, 2006, 08:32:56 PM »

I wonder if Marilyn was laughing...
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« Reply #390 on: September 28, 2006, 09:58:23 PM »

Sorry if this has been asked before but when did Brian's cocaine usage begin?

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« Reply #391 on: September 28, 2006, 11:04:53 PM »

Well the debates rage on but some say as early as late 67, some say late 68. Carl once said it began to get bad during the So Tough sessions. Except for 1976 it probably was pretty bad from then until 83.
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« Reply #392 on: September 29, 2006, 03:21:40 AM »

The original line of thought was more about how various books, documentaries, interviews, etc. have created differing viewpoints as to what happened to Brian Wilson.

Different viewpoints but mainly one broad conclusion in practically every BW/BBbook I've ever read and that is that whichever way you slice it Brian was more sinned against than sinning.
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« Reply #393 on: September 30, 2006, 05:41:16 AM »

Brian did have some bad things happen to him and toa  lesser extent was the cause of bad things happening to others. I think he was not a "sinner" to anyone intentionally except himself. Sadly he beat himself up as bad as anyone else ever did. Why he did is of course sad, but it cannot be denied that this is what happened. Let's just be glad he ended his path of self destruction.
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« Reply #394 on: September 30, 2006, 09:56:41 AM »

Brian did have some bad things happen to him and to a  lesser extent was the cause of bad things happening to others. I think he was not a "sinner" to anyone intentionally except himself. Sadly he beat himself up as bad as anyone else ever did. Why he did is of course sad, but it cannot be denied that this is what happened. Let's just be glad he ended his path of self destruction.


<< Well said, and thought. 
As I have pointed out many times, Brian's sins were mostly sins of "OMISSION" while some others around him sins were of COMISSION.
To fear his father was sort of forgivable.  If indeed as we believe the abuse began at an early age, then in would be natural for him to carry the fear of Murry into adulthood regardless of the obvious foolishness of doing so.
However, after Murry died for Brian to continue to allow Mike to go unpaid for California Girls, a song I'm convinced may be one of the only songs that Mike wrote nearly all the words to, IS A CRIME/a sin of COMMISION (neither spelling looks right and I'm far too lazy to check my spelling.sorry).
See with Brian we call it lazy but it's really fear!  The pain and fearof doing, or even considering doing anything that might "rock the boat" and bring the wrath of Dad or Mike or whoever, became so great in his head that it became life itself.  Drugs may that go away at first, at least for awhile.  Alcohol is really good at this kind of anestesia.  Then the pain and guilt  of addiction makes everything worse!  More fear, more guilt, more fear more pain.  It's cyclical and seems impossible to overcome.  Will power does not break the cycle in spite of what Brian says publically.
ya gotta face your sh*t! 
Brian is doing a better job of that these days but he obviously has some "issues" about making records....huh?   
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« Reply #395 on: September 30, 2006, 03:13:40 PM »

Bob also well said. I think with Mike I am more inclined to think he did write those songs, mainly because Brian has said so many times even in old interviews. That doesn't excuse Love's other lawsuits though, which to me have been frivolous. Brian wasn't a businessman to be sure, but he knew Mike wasn't getting paid and also knew that he was getting credit for Love’s work. He should have done something and he admitted Mike was in the right here. Again Mike has done many things artistically I don't like or personally don't agree with, but in the sixties he and Brian were excellent co-writers. Murry is the only villain really. Not giving Mike credit, and selling the songs destroyed Brian's professional drive and severely hurt inter-group relations. Perhaps while Murry was alive to rectify the situation Brian and Mike held out some faint hope of things working out but the huge change in both of them after Murry's death is not coincidental to me.
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« Reply #396 on: September 30, 2006, 07:26:12 PM »

Personally,I think Murry's death ended the Beach Boys as a *family*. It seemed like it was all business from that point on.
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« Reply #397 on: September 30, 2006, 10:37:16 PM »


Bob also well said. I think with Mike I am more inclined to think he did write those songs,"

I wonder if you noticed what the claims and contentions were song to song in Mike's lawsuit for writer's credits.
" 'round, 'round, I get around"/"she's real fine, my 409"
Now Mike wrote some songs. But through 1964 Brian would write the chords the melody and most of the words.  (Two thirds is the percentage that I have heard thrown around since the early seventies when I made con-tact.) Mike would then come in and make small changes in lyrics, sometimes!  When Brian would "get stuck" Mike might or might not suggest another way to proceed.  That particular duty was also open to Dennis, Carl and even Al to chime in on as well.  Sometimes on those early sessions that Peter alludes to, the "musicians" would only be capable of what they could do.  So compromises were made to facilitate the completion of the song(s).  Words too.

For instance.  One night, pre-Beach Boys, Robin Hood got a phone call from Brian.  "Robin.  Gary and I are over here at the house and we're writing a song.  Gary has heard the next big deal from Chevy is going to be a 409 displacement engine.  Right?"  
Robin: "yeah, why".
Brian: "well what is it about the 409?"
Robin: "it's 4 speeds, dual quad, positraction.  A chevy big engine car!"

Now Robin then said to me.  "I didn't write any of that song.  Brian and Gary Usher did!"

When I called Robin to tell him that Mike had won $10 million in the lawsuit over writing credits, Robin said: "Bob, he was always like that!  Maybe it was because he was older than us and had to be in charge?"
 
Now I hope to God that Robin never reads or hears of my post here.  He'd never speak to me again.  I don't want that to happen.   I do however feel it's important to get perspective correct on those theoretically innocent times when the battles that played out on the plains left their deepest scars on our beloved Brian.
Brian never really wanted his family in his musical group.  That was pure Murry.  I also feel that Mike had a bravado/confidence/arrogance/moxy/whatever?, that Brian admired and feared in the early days.  
  
Oh btw it makes Robin and a few more of the Hawthorne crew crazy when Brian says that Surfer Girl is the first song he ever wrote.
They maintain that many songs that didn't appear until '64 and '65 and even later were already written, they just had different words and sometimes a slightly different "message" than what "came out" later.
Find a copy of "One Man's Challenge" to see what I'm saying.  Besides Surf Jam, there are instrumental passages in that film that didn't occur until All Summer Long!  When that movie was made the BBs hadn't yet signed with Capitol!  The music was credited to the band who did the theme song, the BBs, and the Raindrops.  The only Raindrops that HAD existed were the east coast NYC group featuring Jeff Barry and Eli Greenwich.
The instumentals were not played by them, it was Brian and friends.

I talk to fuckin' much!


  
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« Reply #398 on: October 01, 2006, 12:01:17 AM »

I will have to dig out One Man's Challenge again but I thought that Brian had little to do with the film outside of the Beach Boys. I also thought it was filmed after the release of the first Capitol 45.  Anyone know exactly when the sessions for the short were held and who attended? Bob I feel the hooks of the songs are important, I would go as far as to say Robin should get credit as well as anyone else who helped with anything. Yet I agree Brian was the Beach Boys instigator, genius, and visionary. Brian always seemed to have wanted Carl to play with him, Dennis took some time, but I think Mike was someone Brian admired (and perhaps felt intimidated by) enough to be in the band too. Let's remember how positively Brian spoke about the others until the 80s. To me nothing would have been the same without the unique voices, and personalities that made up the Beach Boys before Murry died.
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« Reply #399 on: October 01, 2006, 12:16:21 AM »

Wasn't there a band from Glendora (east of Asuza) called The Raindrops and aren't they in the film ? Been a loooooong time since I've seen it, but...
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