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Author Topic: The Peter Ames Carlin Thread  (Read 152733 times)
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« Reply #350 on: September 04, 2006, 11:34:25 PM »

I don't feel sorry for them, per se, but I just find it sad that all three of them no longer speak, according to Peter's book.  If Steven was proven not to be guilty of any wrongdoing, I find it especially puzzling.  I can see one brother having a falling out with another, but all three?  All at the same time?  Or maybe they just drifted apart over the years, as siblings who have little in common sometimes do, and it's not as dramatic as it may appear. 

I think the book is actually rather sympathetic to Stan, probably because he was interviewed for it.  It makes Steve Korthoff sound like more of a baddie.  Marilyn also does not come off too well, mainly due to Stan's account, such as the account of her bringing people in to talk to Brian about his financial problems if he would refuse to work, then Brian crawling out of the meetings on his hands and knees.  She didn't come off very well in the Steven Gaines book, either, and she was interviewed for that (mainly due to her own admissions about her relationship with Rocky, and bragging about sending an armed henchman to Tandy Almer's house to extort some equipment back).  Nor did David Leaf have a kind opinion of her in his book.  It doesn't surprise me she didn't cooperate on the new book, due to this history.  Not that I don't realize her situation was very complicated and we don't know what anyone would have done in her shoes, she did the best she could, etc.  But I can see why she doesn't want to do books, unless she someday writes her own.
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« Reply #351 on: September 06, 2006, 04:54:55 AM »

<<Nor did David Leaf have a kind opinion of her in his book.>>


I never read the Leaf book. What does he say about Marilyn?
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« Reply #352 on: September 06, 2006, 05:04:37 AM »

Well Leaf's book says that she and her sister were the real Drainers and that Taydon Almer and his ilk were the ones helping Brian. Reminicent of the Daro interview imho
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« Reply #353 on: September 06, 2006, 07:36:31 AM »

Well Leaf's book says that she and her sister were the real Drainers and that Taydon Almer and his ilk were the ones helping Brian. Reminicent of the Daro interview imho


What's the Daro interview?  (Sorry, I'm a bit of a newbie.)
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« Reply #354 on: September 06, 2006, 08:31:37 AM »

MBE is referring to the on-camera interview Loren Daro gave in the "Beautiful Dreamer" documentary where he displayed a very cavalier attitude toward Brian's drug use.
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« Reply #355 on: September 06, 2006, 02:11:06 PM »

Quote from: forget marie
Marilyn ... didn't come off very well in the Steven Gaines book, either, and she was interviewed for that (mainly due to her own admissions about her relationship with Rocky, and bragging about sending an armed henchman to Tandy Almer's house to extort some equipment back).

I don't think Marilyn was the source of the Rocky rumor, since she has vehemently denied that one, according to Carnie Wilson.



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« Reply #356 on: September 06, 2006, 08:40:59 PM »

I went to Barnes & Noble today and saw this book all over the place, looks like theyre really pushing it to sell. I picked it up and read the first 10 or so pages...looks great but I cant pick it cos the $30 pricetag is a bit too steep for me at the moment Sad

but ill definitely get it!
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« Reply #357 on: September 07, 2006, 06:35:12 AM »

It's only $17.13 at Amazon.com.  I don't know how much postage and handling is, though.


Love and merci,   Dan Lega
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« Reply #358 on: September 07, 2006, 10:18:10 AM »

[quote author=Roger Ryan
MBE is referring to the on-camera interview Loren Daro gave in the "Beautiful Dreamer" documentary where he displayed a very cavalier attitude toward Brian's drug use.
Quote

<< I'm not sure the word "cavalier" is appropriate to describe what Loren is trying to impart, but I'm not sure it's not appropriate to today's point of view of "those" historical events.  Seen from "here".

Maybe you had to "be there".  I don't mean "there", there, but there. 
Having lived, and theoretically grown up (there is some controversay about that statement), the time and the event of Marajuana going "mid-america, Ousley Acid and the Peace movement.
Pot made people silly.  It wasn't the hydroponically grown "kick your ass, hold you to the floor", DRUG that it has become over the decades.  It was a herb (pronounce the H please).  "Dirt Weed" lifted you up let you see a bit differently, both philosophically and perceptually.  Not a HUGE event but an eye opener unless you simply didn't pay attention. 
LSD was different.  They were called "acid trips" because they were very informative and long and interesting.  Sometimes, very personally disturbing and sometimes very kind and gentle, full of God/Love.
Behavior of people high on acid was eclectic and sometimes very interesting to say the least! 
We, of those halcyon days, had been brought up to be stiff, regimented & repressed "good little soldiers".  Cogs for the "great good" machine of the "Military Industrial Complex".  Remember, there was Conscription. A "draft"!  "Whoopee, we're all gonna die" hadn't been coined yet, but it was very real in our minds and souls.
The Fities were not "a gas" to grow up through, they were very "stick up the butt", hypocritical, social more, repressive.  Thus the "James Dean/Rock n Roll rebellion from the kids of that period. 
LSD blew that point of view to pieces! 
For Loren to laugh during the remembrances of any LSD trip, is natural to my experience. 

I once left a group of people after having taken LSD and when I returned and hour later, it was pointed out to me that I had some yellow crap all around my mouth.  I did not know for the life of me what that could have been.  I had only walked around the block.  It took an hour? !
Then one of the women in the group started laughing and shreiked "you have dilly mouth!". 
Yup!  It was early spring and I had picked some Daffadills and since they don't really have an aromatic aura I had eaten 1 or 2 (?) in order to experience their essence (that's pretty intellectualist bullshit .... I really have no idea why I ate them, I was hungry ..... or maybe i was high ?) and they had left thier pollen on my mouth.
In retrospect, that's funny crap.  Silly and free and child-like!
Brian anyone? 
Drugs like "benes" became methamphedamine, and then cocaine showed up BIG TIME in the seventies! ("H" and "Coke" were always american institutions, but we thought we were "smarter than that", I guess not!)  Then the whole thing went sidways. 
Back in the olden days, LSD was generally not taken to "get away" but to experience something from "inside".
I cannot fathom being "addicted" to acid, but then again pot was not a "gateway" for me either.  Alcohol was.
I know people who say they were addicted to pot....I believe them.  I'm just saying, not for me.  Too personally demanding to take all the time.  Too self-revealing, in a personal analysis sort of way.   
At least for me. 
We've all heard Brian's paranoia on hash or pot during the Columbia "Argument session".  Seems he didn't need to use pot socially either.
Some of us had issues before we found drugs.  The drugs didn't cause them, they simply exasserbated them.

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« Reply #359 on: September 07, 2006, 01:29:25 PM »

Great comments, Bob. It's exactly this kind of perspective that is usually missing when Mr. Daro's comments are discussed.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #360 on: September 07, 2006, 01:47:24 PM »

I don't think Mr. Darro was being cavalier either.
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« Reply #361 on: September 07, 2006, 10:40:00 PM »

The intent in the sixties does seem more pure, but in light of what they did to Brian I fail to see his drug use as funny. I think Darro should say what he wishes, but I disliked that his viewpoint wasn't contested by a diifering opinion.
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« Reply #362 on: September 07, 2006, 11:43:20 PM »

The intent in the sixties does seem more pure, but in light of what they did to Brian I fail to see his drug use as funny. I think Darro should say what he wishes, but I disliked that his viewpoint wasn't contested by a diifering opinion.

OH OK, I get it.  You don't see that Brian had issues prior to drug usage?
Some of us should never have used drugs....ever!  Some of us (10%) of the population are physically capable of becoming addicted to alcohol.  The other 90% of you will never suffer a grand mal seizure or die in withdrawl from alcohol.  That is science.
Imperical observation suggests that perhaps people who addict are also people who suffer from "Clinical Depression" or Manic Depression (i know, i know, it's now called Bi-Polar Disorder, watch Geo Carlin's bit on euphemisms, please).
The medical science suggests that we who addict exasserbate the PERHAPS already mis-firing neuro-transmitters or clog up the PERHAPS already chemically imbalanced neuro-receptors.
As to Loren what-ever-the-frig he chooses to call himself, he is not depreciating Brian then or now by enjoying the moment.  Brian is not a cripple.  He can be laughed at, in fact according to his oldest friends it was his self depreciating selflessness in his sense of humor that seemed to make Brian, Brian.....and he knew it.
Loren is what none of us really ever thought we were, and never wanted to be.  Eric Burdon acted that "fool" that Loren was, in his melo-dramatic comic (not necessarily intentionally comic!) fantasy. "San Francisco Nights.  "A leaping gnome" indeed!  Crappolla at it's deepest!
John Sebasitian comes to mind too,  with his hipper than hip, hippie love rap from Woodstock....nothing anyone that was really hip would of said "for all the farms in Cuba" (Bob Dylan said that)
  Just too much in every way.  But these people existed, they still do, they are not intentionally or inherently bad or wrong. 
LSD, and pot did not drive Brian round the bend.....ask anyone that was there in 1968 that bothered to go see him when he was locked up for the first time. 
Accepting that "everyone" (meaning the band his wife, his dad, the people that mattered) thought he was truly "Crazy"! Add to that, the fact that in those days, mental facilities especially county psych wards (yes once again Brian was the "crazy uncle" no one could deal with, LA Medical School a mile away and he goes to an L.A. County booby hatch!) used hynotics like Thorozine (which was indeed the drug used on Brian), to simply "manage" the "patient".   Who cares that he spends his day starring at a wall and drooling on himself.  Stop the drugs and send him home.  Patient "management" remember, not cure!
I have written this diatribe a dozen times.  It remains the truth! 
Cocaine and Meth hurt Brian's brain, ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT!
But, the "legal crap medicine" of the olden days, hurt him just as badly.
The next big mistake was mis-diagnosing Brian as a Schitzophrenic and treating him with severe psycho-tropics in the mid seventies caused the beginnings of tardive dyskenesia (an uncontrolable grimacing of the face!).  Not to mention the resultant brain damage caused by using Psychiatric Ward size doses for a disease Brian's brain didn't need.
Make no mistake all the people played their little or larger roles in this drama, but don't give Loren more credit than he deserves.  He was just one more hanger on.  If he wants to be known as the guy that "turned Brian on" that's his problem, the "sh*t" was everywhere in Brian's creative world, Loren didn't invent it.   
I would also like to go on record that I do not believe that Marilyn was complicit in Brian's undoing.  She was very young and was surrounded by some very "heavy" situations that no one could have expected her to understand, especially with managers, parents, friends and all telling her "how bad it was". Mar certainly doesn't need me to speak for her, but once again through no fault of Peter Carlin's or perhaps even Marilyn's she and her side of the family are not "on record".  Peter tried, and tried, and tried, but it just didn't happen....again!
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« Reply #363 on: September 08, 2006, 12:09:33 AM »

OH OK, I get it.  You don't see that Brian had issues prior to drug usage?
Read my other posts before you say that. I am one of the few who pointed that out.

 Cocaine and Meth hurt Brian's brain, ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT!
But, the "legal crap medicine" of the olden days, hurt him just as badly.

Hey I agree there and have also said that on here.

don't give Loren more credit than he deserves.  He was just one more hanger on.  If he wants to be known as the guy that "turned Brian on" that's his problem, the "merda" was everywhere in Brian's creative world, Loren didn't invent it.   

You are right but I still think he is a real toadie.

I would also like to go on record that I do not believe that Marilyn was complicit in Brian's undoing.  She was very young and was surrounded by some very "heavy" situations that no one could have expected her to understand, especially with managers, parents, friends and all telling her "how bad it was". Mar certainly doesn't need me to speak for her, but once again through no fault of Peter Carlin's or perhaps even Marilyn's she and her side of the family are not "on record".  Peter tried, and tried, and tried, but it just didn't happen....again!

Marilyn should speak out more, and I agree with you about her. Personally I think she was great.

Bob I happen to have a best friend who is an addict. Yes I think he was pre disposed to the problems he had to some extent. Yet If I ever met the persons that gave him his first hit and they were laughing about it I think my temper would boil over. I am not trying to make Brian out ot be worse then he was or better, I simply think that BD goofed in not having someone (like Van Dyke who has said this) mention that Brian's judgement was sometimes clouded by drugs. I am thinking specifically about Van Dyke's view of the Fire sessions etc. Not that I agree with him there as I find Fire to be brilliant.
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« Reply #364 on: September 08, 2006, 12:34:19 AM »

I have read your posts, and to be hones the only reason I reacted is because I generally like what you have to say.
You think and ask us to think as well.
I am a recoving alcoholic/substance abuser, who has been screwed by the psychiatric community for decades.  I have been clean and sober since 6/21/'77 (PLEASE DO NOT CONGRATULATE ME-I mean that!  It's not a big deal, it's just my life path). 
I can't blame the guy that gave me my first hit of anything.  The curiosity was mine.  Some of my friends got away with using everything and never missed a beat.  I couldn't.  It's not their fault or mine, it is what it is.
Loren may indeed be a "toadie" as you say, but he is not the reason for Brian's path. 
As to having Van Dyke work the anti-drug side of the street, I can't even begin to understand that point of view.
I have a friend in L.A. who will not forgive Van for anything until Van admits that substance caused him (Van) severe personal problems in the seventies. 
God I hope Van never sees this post, because he and I have a nice relationship at this point and I don't wnat to lose that, over 2nd hand issues a thousand years old.
Van has told me that during that time he was very "unclear about the roles of a lot of people around Brian in those days".  Michael Vossi in particular, but Loren's name never came up.
I know Mike Love dispised him! 
Like I said, not in so many words, he was/is a geek.  Brian likes weird, out of step people.  Re-read Rock Wives, Marilyn's observations about Brian's attraction to weird-ohs, is classic.
I have all the footage for the Tower '88 cd signing gig.  At one point a guy that looks like someone out of a Warhol movie or perhaps from one of the moons of Jupiter, gets Brian's ear and has to pried loose, because he's holding up the line and he and Brian are nose to nose in heavy confersation.  Brian doesn't want to let go either.
All these things dovetail into the real deal.
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« Reply #365 on: September 08, 2006, 02:14:35 AM »

Even though attitudes were different then, I'm pretty sure Mr. Darro resisted giving Brian drugs, especially LSD, because he didn't think Brian had the constitution for it. I believe he relented because the curious Brian kept hounding him and he felt it was clear it was becoming available to Brian from others and Brian was going to do it anyway and if he was Lorren felt it would be better for him to be the one to mentor/guide/monitor Brian.

Maybe Peter C. can illuminate us on that.
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« Reply #366 on: September 08, 2006, 07:12:03 AM »

Bob as someone whose name I have known for many many years, I am flattered by what you said. I honestly don't know what Van's involvment with anything was. I used him as an example because of what he said about Brian becoming scattered at the time. Marilyn's thing in Rock Wives is cool. You know a good point is made here about Brian doing things anyway. I have no doubt that Brian was unlikely to have avoided drugs for many reasons. I don't "blame" Daro for Brian's decisions, I just don't like that he is so gleeful about it. Cam according to the new book Daro claims Brian forced him to give hom drugs. Peter prints thew story in the book but also says that he has doubts. I guess that's how I feel too. Who knows how it went down. Personally I find it a little hard to swallow that  Loren tried to prevent Brian from it. Peter hasn't been posting anymore but perhaps he could tell us more about his interview with Loren if he comes back.
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« Reply #367 on: September 08, 2006, 07:30:08 AM »

I think this comes down to semantics regarding Loren Daro's BD interview. I chose the word "cavalier" because Daro seemed unconcerned how his little story of Brian freaking out on acid might be construed in the larger context of Brian's mental illness and other drug abuse. The point being that this interview was done in 2004, not 1967, when a historical perspective would be mandatory. Apart from the fact that I didn't think Daro's story was funny (and when you're talking Brian Wilson, there are dozens of anecdotes that could be taken as darkly humorous), I'm not bothered by his appearance in BD and am glad he participated. My earlier post was simply an attempt to specify that MBE was referring to the Daro BD interview in his post.
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« Reply #368 on: September 08, 2006, 07:55:23 AM »

. I have no doubt that Brian was unlikely to have avoided drugs for many reasons. I don't "blame" Daro for Brian's decisions, I just don't like that he is so gleeful about it.

Completely agree with you here MBE. I didn't find his segement funny at all. It left a real sour taste in my mouth, laughing at an anedote that was really, the start of something bad in brian's life and has haunted him since...
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« Reply #369 on: September 08, 2006, 10:03:18 AM »

Hi guys: I really don't know if LSD was really that significant a part of Brian's emotional collapse. For one thing, he hardly ever took it. Three times, maybe, is the recurring estimate I heard from a variety of his friends from that era. He spent far more time -- and perhaps rattled himself far more -- taking amphetamines, which he did by the handful through much of '66 and into '67. Brian was far more of a speed freak than an acid head.

Plus also, the intense trip Loren describes Brian having -- which Brian has also talked about over the years, generally in positive terms -- may have scared him at first, but he came away from it feeling like he'd seen things in a radically new light. Dont' forget that the trip that began with him lying in bed ended with him seeing vibrant staffs of musical notes glimmering in the air. Then he wrote "California Girls."

Certainly Brian's drug experiments coincided with his growing emotinal problems. But I don't think you can say that his problems were necessarily caused by taking drugs. More likely, his increasing appetite for altered perception was a RESULT of his emotional condition: he was looking for, and finding, relief wherever he could.

Which isn't to say that drugs were good for him, per se. Certainly competent psychiatric care would have been far more valuable. And while it's often comforting for someone's family to point at an external villian (the drugs did it!) rather than acknowledge their loved one's psychiatric problems, it's not always accurate.
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« Reply #370 on: September 09, 2006, 03:19:17 AM »

Good point Peter. Cam and I both wanted to know what you thought of Daro's claims of trying to aviod giving Brian drugs and perhaps your opinion on him in general as an interview subject.
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« Reply #371 on: September 09, 2006, 04:17:54 AM »

I agree with what Peter is saying but I'm just pointing out that Mr. Darro was more reluctant, or reasoned, rather than  cavalier.  I understand where the cavalier interpretation is coming from but I believe it is a result of lack of context, because of time I assume, in the docu instead of an actuality.  I was really wondering if this is also Peter C.'s understanding from his discussion with Lorren.
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« Reply #372 on: September 09, 2006, 09:20:37 AM »

Loren seemed nice enough. I'd hesitate to judge anyone based on a few telephone interviews. I wasn't sure what to make of his assertions that he'd tried to hold back Brian's interest in pot and then LSD. If only because I don't think anyone suspected in '64 or early '65 that Brian was on the verge of serious mental illness. But maybe he just seemed young and innocent and Loren, et. al, wanted to make sure he knew what he was doing before he crossed the Rubicon. Or on the other hand, maybe Loren is retrofitting his memory to seem more sympathetic. I dunno. I let him say his piece in my book, and you, the reader, can use your own judgement.

What seems evident to me, particularly now that the even-keeled Brian has no apparent interest in serious drug or alcohol use, is that his heavy use of drugs back in the day was all about self-medicating for his psychic turmoil. Once he got his brain chemistry rejiggered with legal psychotropics, he no longer has an appetite for intoxicants.
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« Reply #373 on: September 09, 2006, 07:52:43 PM »

Hopefully this comment will help shed some more light on the problem of being chemically imbalanced.  I love all of the input from everyone, that I have seen to this point, and God I wish I had been a succinct in my relpies as Peter is in his.
Some of "us", are sensative  or prone to emotional issues.  Add to that the dysfunction of "the day(s)" that we came up in and we were "ripe" for what Brian called "breakdowns".
Now add the genentic disposition to brain chemical imbalance.
Here comes alcohol into every teen or just post teens life,(which Brian avoided for the longest time based on what he had witnessed and experienced in his own household). Then pot, then LSD (now there's a drug not to be triffled with! At one point the US military was experimenting with "acid" as a weapon to create a pschotic state of paranoia in one's enemy!), benzedrene, hash and whatever.
Now those "little fears" that have been present since puberty, have started to be on one's mind all the time! 

ADDICTIVE THINKING 101: "the drugs got me here, maybe they can get me out of this mess". 
All of a sudden you're using some substance, all the time.  Not to feel good but just to feel "normal", but you're not normal. That "reality" makes you depressed and guilty and even more confused than ever.
I will say it again.  SOME OF US SHOULD NEVER HAVE DONE DRUGS.....EVER!
If you've never taken LSD, here is a bit of a primer.  There is a point in every "trip" where you are offered a "choice".  Relax and remember you are under the influence of a very powerful chemical and think of positive things, OR let the fear that the "rush" seems to emulate take over and have a bummer of a time.  Dodging monsters and demons of your own creation. 
That's why I believe Loren laughed.  It happens to everyone once at least.  Maybe you didn't "prepare", or no one let you know what to expect. It is initially scary and overwhelming, after all "it's in your head you know"(GH).  Then as the "trip" wiles on, you return to your center and "well that's enough of that!" is a solid sane and true statement. 
I won't give Loren the total credit for cosmic understanding of that reality way back then, but I believe he knows what happened back then in the comfort of retrospect, so his laughter doesn't offend me the way it seems to bother others on this board.  OK, ok, the guy was a hanger on.
I wish I'd been in a position to hang on during that creative time.  Can't blame him for wanting to be there!  All that music, all those talented, hip people.
A friend of Brian's called me after he read the chapter where he is quoted.  He was concerned he might be seen as "a rat" (his words), because he and Brian would go out driving around trying to score pot.  It wasn't exactly like that.  They weren't going to east L.A. or Long Beach or Compton (which were just up the road from Hawthorne) to the real drug dealers they "were looking for a place where the kids were hip" in the part of town where they were from or live now.  You know, if you're from that time what I'm saying.  Looking for "Heads" within your comfort zone.  Hip people to be co-enlightened with.
Based only on the images from what was a much longer interview/conversation I probably wouldnt' want to hang out with Loren, but like Peter says, he's probably a perfectly nice guy. 
My own first meeting of  Michael Vossi was interesting the too. 
Another "leaping gnome", full of fun and playfulness, sixties kinda guy, with fond memories of the "insanity of the chaos".
After all IT WAS THE SIXTIES! We honestly didn't know any better, maybe we should have, but we didn't.
We were reacting or over reacting to the repression of our youthfull culture and to the extreme life or death situation that existed as Conscription whether consciously or unconsciously in each of we males lives.
We were really seeking acceptence, freedom and finally respect.  Somehow it, for some of us appeared to be escape, but was really severe personal emotional, psychic and even physical imprisonment.
Weid times!
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« Reply #374 on: September 10, 2006, 02:48:17 PM »

Peter thanks for elaborating for me. I think Brian's use of drugs became addictive at certain points but perhaps the reasons you stated have truth in them. I think it probably started out innocently but he simply got caught up in a bad lifestyle. Then we have to consider brain chemicals, and depression etc. This isn't an easy puzzle to put together but your remarks about Lorren help clairfy a few things about the root of the problem.
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