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Author Topic: The Peter Ames Carlin Thread  (Read 147581 times)
Sir Rob
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« Reply #325 on: August 22, 2006, 03:29:39 AM »

I think Mike comes off better in this then the Leaf. At least his background is explored and his rebutles are included. I expected this to be a Brian centric book but it does praise everyone else in some respects far more then Leaf.

The picture, however, is essentially unchanged from that which most BW/BB authors have presented in the past and it's one not very favourable to Mike and the rest of the band. Says a lot if PAC went into this venture with an open mind and seeking to give a balanced account. Whether he did or not I'm not sure - he certainly gives the impression he's striving for balance - but to no avail, he seems to have found certain conclusions unavoidable.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 07:57:44 AM by Sir Rob » Logged

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Cam Mott
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« Reply #326 on: August 22, 2006, 03:58:21 AM »

The early years are great with lots of new voices speaking for themselves. Peter, you have certainly set a high mark for future biography by casting the widest net for a balanced group of witnesses but that said I'm wondering why you speak so much about Mike and Al but have Mike and Al speak so little for themselves. Or is it just me?
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Bob Hanes
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« Reply #327 on: August 22, 2006, 11:35:33 AM »

Peter doesn't need me to speak for him. And Peter I apologize.
Peter flew to Tahoe and spent at least 1 full day with Mike.  He had numerous phone conversations with Mike, Al, & Bruce.  I know he spent days with both Al and Bruce in person.
If there was information that was pertinent to the book that those gentleman had to share or chose to share Peter would have included it.
I think the trouble Peter went to to lay a sympathetic history of the Love family, by speaking at great lenth in person with Stanley, and Maureen was an indication of his "good faith".
We all know what you're getting at dear misguided Mott. 
I do not insist that you accept what others believe or know to be so.  I only ask that you not clutter us with your same old unfounded, unresearched personally one on one,  and pesonally speculative "point of view".
Sometimes a cigar is really a cigar and the truth is what everyone else believes.
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« Reply #328 on: August 22, 2006, 04:24:57 PM »

Not to mention speaking to Michael himself about his upbringing....

Bob, may I just say that you don't post often enough for my liking. I have always enjoyed your contributions to discussions regarding Brian Wilson and the BB. And I enjoy them because you have always been unafraid to tell it like it fucking is - a rare thing in this weird reverse "politically correct" world we live in these days.
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Dancing Bear
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« Reply #329 on: August 22, 2006, 05:10:47 PM »

I'll keep that in mind when Dan Lega, Sir Rob, Bob Hanes and Rob McCabe disagree with any fact or opinion stated in "Catch a Wave". If you're gonna claim it as THE final statement then you'd better buy the whole thing as the truth, not just the sections that favour your crusade.

Btw, where's McShane?  Grin
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« Reply #330 on: August 22, 2006, 05:42:16 PM »

I very much enjoyed CAW, thank you very much. The only slight disagreements I have are regarding the occasional song - I loved "Hey Little Tomboy", Peter hates MIU but so what? AGD likes LBWL and I think it's a festering piece of dog sh*t.

Peter told the story the best that anyone is going to tell it and he totally gets (and has always gotten) the signifigance of Brian's music and what made it great and what makes it matter. 

Oh and BTW, I think some of the conclusions in CAW vis a vis certain aspects of the story are awfully similar to the ones reached in the now-mocked David Leaf version. Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar.
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Dancing Bear
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« Reply #331 on: August 22, 2006, 06:49:11 PM »

Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar.

I'm sure there are other possible analogies with the "a cigar really is just a cigar" quote outside your small "Mike was useless after '65 / Mike was the least talented member / if Mike ever wrote a good lyric it was a fluke" world. I can easily think of ten Brian Wilson-related cigars.

But then we'd be going off-topic.  Cheesy
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #332 on: August 22, 2006, 08:36:30 PM »

Reverend, I've seen what appeared to be a cigar but was actually bubble gum or chocolate but I don't know anything so....

Anyway....I'm curious why so little of the lengthy interviews with Mike, Al and Bruce made it to print when the interviews with others were used to such excellent effect.

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« Reply #333 on: August 22, 2006, 10:25:34 PM »

I think the Mike interview is featured well in the last chapter and in the first chapter.
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« Reply #334 on: August 22, 2006, 10:55:12 PM »

[quote author=MBE
I think the Mike interview is featured well in the last chapter and in the first chapter.
=======================================
Cam, I think that's a good answer.
You should ask Peter.  He's available on line.  I think he probably has a profile here too.  Write him a private message and ask.

It is not a book about Mike Love.
I honestly believe you should consider gettng ahold of Mike and arranging to do his "in depth", "warts and all" biography. 
I am convinced that Mike's role in the BB's up to a certain point was invaluable.  His vocal work even after that "point" were great!  There will never be another sound like the BBs, vocally....not ever, and each singer played his role.
I think Peter's presentation was even handed and fair. 
I will not go into speculation as to why Mike's point of view was not represented enough to satisfy you.
I will simply remind you once again that this book was not about Mike Love.
Never once did Peter say to me, prior to the contract, "I think I'd like to write a book about Mike Love and his amazing contribution to American Music through his group the Beach Boys, and I know he didn't say that to a publisher either.
Write you book mr. Mott, tell Mike's true story....please!
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« Reply #335 on: August 22, 2006, 11:25:01 PM »

[quote author=Dancing Bear
I'll keep that in mind when Dan Lega, Sir Rob, Bob Hanes and Rob McCabe disagree with any fact or opinion stated in "Catch a Wave". If you're gonna claim it as THE final statement then you'd better buy the whole thing as the truth, not just the sections that favour your crusade.

Btw, where's McShane?  Grin
=======================================
I have to say, I'm not sure what you are saying in this post.
There is no "final statement".  I have never implied of insisted that perspective. 
There is only opinion and perspective.
As I have said thousands of times, "you will never get any of these people, in this story, through the eye of a needle".  They were/are all too human and flawed.
I know how much research went into this book because as Peter points out, I introduced him to lots and lots of people. 
Some of whom are the "old high school pals of Brian's & Dennis' that I have had the good fortune to know and become friends with.
I have been trying to get their perspective into print or on film since David Leaf and Don Was did I just wasn't made for these times.  I was able to get some of the "Hood family achives home movies" into Morgan Neville's - Peter Jones Production for the Biography Channel (USA) (a bb's tale was the title in England) but until now many were unwilling to talk out of fear of betraying Brian.  Or truthfully, being sued by Mike.
Peter, I know for a fact went into this book willing to hear and use that information, no mater how corny or boring or unhappy or unhip/unhollywood it might seem.  It's the most important perspective in the whole story in my humble opinion.  No one knows you beter than the people you peed in your pants around.  The team mates you had in Jr High and High School.  The boys you shared your first sex story with, or the girl who never knew you loved her.
They knew what made you, you better than your parents did.....by a mile.  My dream is complete, I saw and got to help a really good writer who loves the sound and feeling of the music first, and came to love the men involved over the years, in a distant, yet personal way to investigate for himself what was really going on, or more accurately what really went on, (AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART) according to the perspective of as many of the people who were THERE as would talk to him.
I am going to assume, that what Peter put in the book was an amalgum of all those perspectives, allowing the predominant points of view to take precendents over any "wild shots in the dark" sort of disclaimers.  Not that I know of any.  I did not input my opinion EVER! 
Though it doesn't show in a quotation form, Peter went to the little farm community of Shedd, OR and interviewed Dennis' manager and co-writer Nik Jakobson.  Nik his Dennis out from Charlie Mason for months, and that information can be found in someone else's book (which title escapes me at the present moment).
Jan Berry's work with Brian was passed over....again.....another book for someone else to write.
Once again the refusal of the Rovell extended tribe goes un-represented.  I know Mar, she's great!  The emotional politics are incredible.  Many afraid to talk, many too angry to talk.  Many unwilling to talk, because it might aid a comfort an arch rival.
Obscurity be thy name.  'nough already                          ciao   
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Sir Rob
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« Reply #336 on: August 23, 2006, 01:28:09 AM »

What I'd actually love to read is a book that gave a different view of BW/BB history to the one that most published authors have so far presented. Not just an obviously partisan point scoring exercise, mind, but a solidly researched scholarly work. I say this because there seems to me to be a view of BB history (more group friendly and less Brian-centric) on these boards that has just not made the transition to any major published work. And I'm wondering why that is? Conspiracy against that point of view amongst certain major players and interests? Or is it just that when it comes to it, the material isn't there to make a convincing and persuasive narrative?
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Dancing Bear
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« Reply #337 on: August 23, 2006, 04:31:43 AM »

There is no "final statement". I have never implied of insisted that perspective.
There is only opinion and perspective.

You DID write:

Quote
I do not insist that you accept what others believe or know to be so.

Fine. But then you wrote:

Quote
I only ask that you not clutter us with your same old unfounded, unresearched personally one on one,  and pesonally speculative "point of view". Sometimes a cigar is really a cigar and the truth is what everyone else believes.

Roll Eyes 
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Jon Stebbins
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« Reply #338 on: August 23, 2006, 08:12:50 AM »

Nik Jakobson? Must be the love-child of Nik Venet and Gregg Jakobson. I do talk to an old friend of Dennis'(who co-wrote Forever) he's up in Oregon and calls himself Gregg ...should I ask him to tell me about Nik?.  Wink
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« Reply #339 on: August 23, 2006, 09:41:51 AM »

[quote author=Jon Stebbins
Nik Jakobson? Must be the love-child of Nik Venet and Gregg Jakobson. I do talk to an old friend of Dennis'(who co-wrote Forever) he's up in Oregon and calls himself Gregg ...should I ask him to tell me about Nik?.  Wink

OOPS! it was late. I goofed.  yeah, he's GREG. but he did live in Shedd.  I think he moved to Corvalis (right next door, where Oregon State Univ. is, and only 40 miles from my house) 
I like to give him the first name of the guy that was involved with the Lovin' Spoonful.  I don't know why.
I freely admit my mistakes, thanks for fact checking, I don't want to piss anyone off any more than I already have.
Is there an official date for your book?  Or am I living under a rock and should already know?
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Jon Stebbins
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« Reply #340 on: August 23, 2006, 10:08:49 AM »

[quote author=Jon Stebbins
Nik Jakobson? Must be the love-child of Nik Venet and Gregg Jakobson. I do talk to an old friend of Dennis'(who co-wrote Forever) he's up in Oregon and calls himself Gregg ...should I ask him to tell me about Nik?.  Wink

OOPS! it was late. I goofed.  yeah, he's GREG. but he did live in Shedd.  I think he moved to Corvalis (right next door, where Oregon State Univ. is, and only 40 miles from my house) 
I like to give him the first name of the guy that was involved with the Lovin' Spoonful.  I don't know why.
I freely admit my mistakes, thanks for fact checking, I don't want to piss anyone off any more than I already have.
Is there an official date for your book?  Or am I living under a rock and should already know?

Hey Rev. Bob...no your not living under a rock. The DM book release date is still pending. Things are "firming up" as they say in the big world of show biz. There will be an "announcement" soon. I'm gonna call Gregg "ZAL" next time I talk to him in yours and the Lovin' Spoonful's honor.
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« Reply #341 on: August 23, 2006, 04:35:01 PM »


Jon Stebbins said:
Hey Rev. Bob...no your not living under a rock. The DM book release date is still pending. Things are "firming up" as they say in the big world of show biz. There will be an "announcement" soon. I'm gonna call Gregg "ZAL" next time I talk to him in yours and the Lovin' Spoonful's honor.
=======================================
Truth is, that "cat's" name is Eric Jakobson.  He was with Koppelman/Rueben or Faithful Virtue Publishing.  Obviously there is a lot of crap that i have in my head I can't really remember.
Maybe Eric was a Nashville Cat?
Ask Gregg, maybe he'll know.
Sadly I think you were right about my having created a "love child" by using the name Nik.
I still say "it was late as my 'go to' excuse"!
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« Reply #342 on: August 24, 2006, 09:34:45 AM »


Don't know whether you've had this on thread, but here it is (again?):





Catch a Wave


By Gregory McNamee

Bottom line: A tale of sunny California beaches, suburban tragedies, and the making of great music.
 
 
Catch a Wave: The Rise, Fall & Redemption of the Beach Boys' Brian Wilson, by Peter Ames Carlin (Rodale; $25.95; 356 pp.)

Brian Wilson is one of the greatest popular songwriters America and the world have ever known. And "Be My Baby" is one of the greatest songs of all time.

On their face, these two propositions are unrelated; Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry penned the Ronettes' 1963 hit in the Brill Building, far from the working-class California suburb where Wilson and a band of brothers, cousins and friends were in the process of making musical history as the Beach Boys.

But the two are in fact joined, for Brian Wilson -- though deaf in one ear, possibly because of a blow delivered by his father -- heard things that were not given to ordinary mortals to hear. So did Phil Spector, whose "Wall of Sound" doctrine is most perfectly expressed in the Ronettes' anthem. Fresh out of high school, Wilson stole a couple of pages from Spector, who had sung on the Teddy Bears' 1958 hit "To Know Him Is to Love Him" and then gone to work on the other side of the board, "writing and producing for a stable of singers he would cultivate and discard as needed," as music journalist Peter Carlin writes in "Catch a Wave: The Rise, Fall & Redemption of the Beach Boys' Brian Wilson."

 
Wilson cultivated and discarded a few players himself while searching out ideal combinations to deliver the sounds he heard in his head. He studied Spector's methods, spending hours in the master's studio and learning how to set microphones and levels, and he hired away some of Spector's crew, even though Wilson confessed to being frightened of their boss. Listen to "I Get Around" and "Good Vibrations," and the Spector influence leaps out of the speakers. Listen to the recently released "Smile," four decades in the making, and that influence endures and is done one better.

And then there were, of course, all the days and nights and years that Brian Wilson stayed holed up in his room, ingesting multiple substances and listening obsessively to Spector's greatest moment. "He'd eat steaks for every meal," writes Carlin of the sadly undone Wilson of 1978, "then polish off entire cakes and sacks of cookies or vats of ice cream for dessert. After that he'd sprint out to the pool, then walk around it as fast as possible for as long as possible. ... Physically drained, he'd limp back into the house to play 'Be My Baby' for a few hours."

The deep tragedy that is Brian Wilson's life has been well documented, even in the strange exercise in evasion that was Wilson's own memoir, which he later disavowed: the years of abuse and psychic damage in childhood, the years of adulthood surrounded by courtiers who allowed him to indulge his worst inclinations and who lived in great comfort at his expense, the years of feeding astonishing appetites of every description while neglecting everything that mattered. Finally set on a healthful course only in his late 40s, Wilson managed to avoid the early death that was so long foretold for him -- but visited his brothers and bandmates Carl and Dennis. He also managed to avoid a fate perhaps worse than death: becoming a mere oldies act, an irrelevance in his own time.

Well documented, yes, but Carlin's book breaks ground even as it assembles a reliable precis of events. As in any tale of the Beach Boys, the strange Wilson family dynamic comes to the fore; Carlin deepens it a couple of generations, linking pioneer spirit to neurosis, failure and worse. As ever, Wilson cousin and rival for leadership Mike Love comes out looking very bad indeed. Carlin affords him lengths and lengths of rope, and Love uses every inch.

And, as always, the entwined saga of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys presents a complex skein of what-ifs, of roads not taken. Would anything have been different if the Wilson boys had not been quite so fond of pharmaceuticals? Would history's course have been significantly altered if the Beach Boys had not withdrawn from the Monterey Pop festival of '67, where Jimi Hendrix burst upon the American scene and bushy-bushy blond hairdos suddenly seemed detritus from the square past? Would Brian Wilson have been happier and healthier if a certain psychiatrist hadn't seized control of his checkbook, mixing board and life?

Yes, and there lie other tragedies, not least of which is Carlin's understated conclusion that Brian Wilson became free only when he was practically the last Beach Boy standing. He abides, and reading these haunted pages, one can only hope that he flourishes -- and that he makes more music.

Gregory McNamee is The Hollywood Reporter's literary critic. He can be reached at thr.books@mac.com.

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Dugan
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« Reply #343 on: August 27, 2006, 02:35:29 PM »

Peter

Just finished the book,  Thank You you did an excellent job.

:D
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« Reply #344 on: August 31, 2006, 09:21:31 AM »

I'm loving the book Peter. Since you wrote about it, I was wondering if anyone knows if there's an online source to read Tom Nolan's early seventies article about the Beach Boys. I managed to find the Jules Siegel article. I had to pay $3 to him to read the whole thing, but after all it's a piece of history, and worth that small expense. But I still haven't been able to find the Nolan story from Rolling Stone.

Ken
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« Reply #345 on: September 01, 2006, 05:03:57 AM »

Kshane it is on Ebay a lot and you can also look up The Beach Boys Complete music book from 1973. I just bought one fairly cheap on there.
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« Reply #346 on: September 01, 2006, 02:55:15 PM »

I finally read Peter's book.  Great job!  It's a little short with a lot to cover, but you'd have to write the New and Old Testament to get it all in, so it's a great effort within the space limitations.  I learned a lot of new things, but weirdly, what made me most sad is the fact that the Love brothers no longer speak.
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« Reply #347 on: September 03, 2006, 06:03:15 PM »

It's hard for me to feel sad for them. Mike, because, well....he's Mike. Stan, mainly because he and a co-hort beat the living bejabbers out of Dennis and were proud they did it.

I'm reading the book at a leisurely pace, but that's because I'm enjoying it so much. Peter, it's a great job and I totally apologize for being skeptical a few months ago on the Smile Shop board.
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« Reply #348 on: September 04, 2006, 08:10:21 PM »

Peter, I finally finished the book today. It's really a first rate effort. Now that I'm done, I feel the same way I did after seeing my final show of the Brian Wilson tour last year. There's a definite sense of withdrawal and wanting more.
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« Reply #349 on: September 04, 2006, 09:11:31 PM »

[quote author=SMiLEY
It's hard for me to feel sad for them. Mike, because, well....he's Mike. Stan, mainly because he and a co-hort beat the living bejabbers out of Dennis and were proud they did it.

<<The Love's wouldn't want anyone to "feel sorry" for them.
I was hoping some of the insights that Peter brought forth in CAW about the Love's early life might actually bring some understanding of their "humanity".
I just had a high school reunion and it turns out NONE of us had a functional upbringing. We're now old enought to realize that.
So, I'm afraid, goes it for the Love's.
Stanley is a good guy who really, really loves his cousin and did what he did at the behest of others, yet to this day Stanley also hates who Dennis was in Brian's life at the time of the incident.
I have no idea what Rocky's motives were, but Stanley genuinely believe(s/ed) that "they" had tried everything else to keep Dennis from supplying Brian with drugs and he had been warned of "this posibility/enevitibility, and Dennis out of pure selfish, willful disregard and arrogance chose to "take his chances".
I've never met Steven, but he was proven not guilty of his alleged mis-doings as well.
Mike is indeed Mike, but in fairness even Melinda said publically that she is sure that, "he (meaning Mike) really loves his cousin".
I've known some of the Hawthorne-ites interviewed for the book, for many years now and at least one of them said to me, "Bob, he's (again meaning Mike) always been like that! A bully, sort of, maybe it was 'cause he was older than us and felt he should be in charge?!".
I wish them all long and prosperous lives!
I agree with you about everything else and sincerely believe, Peter has written the best book ever done on Brian Wilson.....period! IMHO of course. (It really shouldn't be necessary to say IMHO, it's automatically implied when one compliments or is critical of some subject or work.)



 
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