Heroes and Villains and Good Vibrations on the tour

[Justin]

They're playing them that way because those are the versions the majority of the fans know.

Hahahahahahahaha, right. And "the majority of fans" are surely listening to the Smiley Smile version, completely unaware of the original. No, I'm certain there's a whole club of people that know The Beach Boi~s did a song called Heroes and Villains while somehow being oblivious to an album called Smile.
And as if anyone is going to be bothered by the inclusion of the cantina or hum-be-dum sections.

Uh, wat.

The alleged "Smile versions" are 2011 inventions. They're not the originals. This is not how these songs were originally envisioned in the 60s for the Smile album, and above all, it's not how they were finished in 1966/1967. They're playing the version of "Good Vibrations" that has been known and loved by fans for 46 years, not the version that was edited for The Smile Sessions release last year. Same goes for "Heroes", although a few Smile references have been thrown in there. That's how the song was finished in 1967 and yes, that's the version most people are familiar with. The 2011 edit is not the "original".

So yeah. That's why they're playing the songs as they were finished back in 1966/1967 and not playing versions they've never performed before that were edited together in 2011.

Yup thats about it right there.

[runnersdialzero]

Look at it this way: there are two kinds of people.
1. People who listen to The Beach Boys on the radio.
2. People who listen to The Beach Boys through their real albums.

If you are buying a greatest hits disc, then you probably don't care about the band's general output. "Heroes and whatsits? Honey, put on Kokomo."
If you are buying Smiley Smile, you're not listening to it thinking that it's the true follow-up to Pet Sounds (unless the year is 1967).

But whenever I look at concert footage, it does seem like most of the audience was in their 20s when Smiley Smile came out... I don't even know anymore.
I think the reason why that is, is because they're the only people who can deal with the placid tunes. If they suddenly decided to play Smile in full as their second set, I'd bet the average concert attendant's age would go down by about forty years.

The setlist is pretty well aimed at all sides of their audience, though. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to something like "Cabin Essence "or "Surf's Up" making the setlist, and maybe they will in time, but it was never really realistic to expect them to show up as soon as they started playing shows. Brian hasn't even played those songs for several years, maybe even since 2004 or 2005. That's quite a while when you consider the hundreds of dates played since then, y'know? The tour was put together pretty quickly, too.

Like I said, maybe we'll see them later on. It'd be nice, but if not, most people are happy with the setlists, and most of the additions over time have been more obscure late 60s/early 70s album tracks. There are several fan favorites that were never popular singles, so hay.

[puni puni]

I also enjoy your dismissal of something like"In My Room" or "Surfer Girl", essential Brian Wilson tracks.

I get that, but he doesn't need to do them. I think you could do a whole show without doing those songs and without more than a dozen (or so) people realizing it, just like you could with Forever (if it wasn't a Dennis tribute) or... I can't think of any other slow not-immediately-known-by-the-general-population songs like that because there aren't any others that fit that middle ground.

I mean if you were to pull out anyone with less than three songs by The Beach Boys on their harddrive, Surfer Girl probably wouldn't be on there.

Chill out u r an indian smoking some pizza from the ceremonial pipe or something39jtiegw

Yeah, actually.

[runnersdialzero]

Chill out u r an indian smoking some pizza from the ceremonial pipe or something39jtiegw

Yeah, actually.

^_^ same.

[keysarsoze001]

That list is heavily skewed toward Pet Sounds because it's an indie/hipster favorite and because last.fm is primarily used by young people.

Then why is Kokomo so high up?

That's how the song was finished in 1967 and yes, that's the version most people are familiar with. The 2011 edit is not the "original".

Look at it this way: there are two kinds of people.
1. People who listen to The Beach Boys on the radio.
2. People who listen to The Beach Boys through their real albums.

Firstly, I assure you there's an in between category there: people who own SOME of their albums, a greatest hits collection or two (which feature the original 60s edits of the songs in question), and listen to them on the radio.

Secondly, SMiLE is not a "real" Beach Boys album. We have a Brian Wilson album and we have a box set of outtakes. There is no SMiLE album by the Beach Boys and there never will be. There is, however, a Smiley Smile album, with no Cantina. Nor is there a Cantina in the versions on Live in Concert, 20 Golden Greats, Made in USA, Greatest Hits Vol. 2, The Very Best of the Beach Boys, Classics Selected by Brian Wilson, the Knebworth concert, nor Sounds of Summer. The Cantina section was only added in the first disc of The SMiLE Sessions because they were aping BWPS. Otherwise they wouldn't have stopped there, they'd have edited the thing to be ten minutes long and include "Barnyard" and "I'm in Great Shape" and the "threescore and five" verse and who knows what else.

[Al Jardine: Pick Up Artist]

Look at it this way: there are two kinds of people.
1. People who listen to The Beach Boys on the radio.
2. People who listen to The Beach Boys through their real albums.

If you are buying a greatest hits disc, then you probably don't care about the band's general output. "Heroes and whatsits? Honey, put on Kokomo."
If you are buying Smiley Smile, you're not listening to it thinking that it's the true follow-up to Pet Sounds (unless the year is 1967).

Scenario three: You discovered Smiley Smile out in your grandma's garage, put it on before you were a big Beach Boys fan, and proceeded to wig the f*** out while exchanging confused and terrified stares with said grandma.

[Jonathan Blum]

I think the reason why that is, is because they're the only people who can deal with the placid tunes. If they suddenly decided to play Smile in full as their second set, I'd bet the average concert attendant's age would go down by about forty years.

...and the average ticket sales would go down by about eighty percent.

I've seen the comparative sizes of the hipster crowd and the general audience.  Down here in Sydney, I saw the "Smile" tour fill the Opera House, I saw "Lucky Old Sun" fill the State Theater.  Then I saw a greatest-hits concert fill the frickin' *Domain*.  Estimated at fifty thousand people, of all ages, grooving on them placid tunes.

Regards,
Jon Blum

[AndrewHickey]

And for every new 'fan' who is 'only interested in the 1966/67 era' there are a thousand or so people who are only interested in the 1962-65 stuff.

http://www.last.fm/music/The+Beach+Boys/+charts?rangetype=week&subtype=tracks
Wow, you're right. Just compare the plays in the last week for Shut Down and That's Not Me. It's exactly "a thousand or so," like you said. Thank the Radio God that Mike Love is sparing us the non-commercial I Know There's An Answer in favor of crowd favorites like Little Honda.

Which is only any evidence for your statement if all the people playing Pet Sounds were people who were *only* interested in 'the 1966/67 era'.

In fact, the last.fm playlist stats pretty much always reflect the same listening pattern -- people listening to Sounds Of Summer, and people listening to Pet Sounds. Except that a lot of the people listening to Pet Sounds turn it off part-way into the album.

But your whole argument is fundamentally incoherent, anyway. Just because *you* think that the only worthwhile music the band made was in 1966 and 67 doesn't make it true. Nor does it mean that there is a massive audience out there who *only* want to hear that music and nothing else. Nor does it mean that the millions more people who have copies of songs like In My Room and Surfer Girl secretly don't like those songs.  And it definitely doesn't mean that it's a conspiracy by Mike Love to make Brian perform songs you don't like -- of the nine songs you cite as being 'agony', five of them (Catch A Wave, Don't Back Down, Little Deuce Coupe, In My Room and Surfer Girl) have been regulars in Brian's set. Brian's played In My Room and Surfer Girl at *every single show he's done*, bar none.

Remember that outside his Pet Sounds tours, Brian's not played anything other than the hits from Pet Sounds for years, while Mike's band have included Here Today and You Still Believe In Me. After the Smile tours ended in 2005, Brian's not played anything other than Heroes & Villains, which is also a regular in Mike's band's set, from Smile.   No matter *who* was in control of the setlist (and it seems to have been worked out by compromise) you'd never get the kind of setlist you seem to want, because while to a greater or lesser extent all the band members (except presumably David) see Pet Sounds (and to a lesser extent Smile) as their most important album, none of them see it as their *only* important album, or 1966 and early 1967 (because when you speak about 1967 you're clearly not counting either Smiley Smile or Wild Honey, so we're talking about up to March at best) as more important than the other forty-eight years and nine months of their career.

[AndrewHickey]

I think the reason why that is, is because they're the only people who can deal with the placid tunes. If they suddenly decided to play Smile in full as their second set, I'd bet the average concert attendant's age would go down by about forty years.

...and the average ticket sales would go down by about eighty percent.

I've seen the comparative sizes of the hipster crowd and the general audience.  Down here in Sydney, I saw the "Smile" tour fill the Opera House, I saw "Lucky Old Sun" fill the State Theater.  Then I saw a greatest-hits concert fill the frickin' *Domain*.  Estimated at fifty thousand people, of all ages, grooving on them placid tunes.

Oh, but Jon, That Lucky Old Sun wasn't recorded between January 1966 and March 1967, so no-one who went to see that can be counted in the people Kappa is talking about. The *actual* size of the crowd who are only interested in that music could only be estimated by taking the Smile audience, then taking away from that anyone who also went to see That Lucky Old Sun or the Mike & Bruce band. You also have to take away from that remainder anyone who liked the non-Smile portion of the set, especially anyone who sat through the agony of In My Room or Surfer Girl without being in obvious pain, and anyone who *didn't* like Smile as much as they were expecting. If any of them stayed for the encore and sang along with Barbara Ann, they might as well just be Mike Love and wear a Hawaiian shirt and have done with it.

*THAT* is the audience Kappa is *actually* talking about. My strong suspicion is that it is the empty set...

[puni puni]

Just because *you* think that the only worthwhile music the band made was in 1966 and 67 doesn't make it true. Nor does it mean that there is a massive audience out there who *only* want to hear that music and nothing else.

I never said that.

If you were to stop by any music boards not running phpBBS (there must be at least one extremely popular example you can think of) it's generally agreed upon there that Pet Sounds and Smile is the most worthwhile thing they ever did. I don't believe that, it's just the most popular understanding in between "The Beach Boys were a lame surf pop band" and "oh god Brian D. Wilson is a genius clearly their best albums were Adult/Child and Landlocked and his Disney covers were the highlight of 2011"

These same disappointed people are using the negligence of those albums as the excuse why they're not bothering to purchase a ticket. It's not my complaints, it's their complaints. And that's a pretty big "they". Don't shoot the messenger.

There is, however, a Smiley Smile album, with no Cantina. Nor is there a Cantina in the versions on Live in Concert, 20 Golden Greats, Made in USA, Greatest Hits Vol. 2, The Very Best of the Beach Boys, Classics Selected by Brian Wilson, the Knebworth concert, nor Sounds of Summer.

My favorite part of the Smiley Smile version of Heroes and Villains is where they sing "Bicycle rider, see see what we've done done to the church of the American indians" right before someone yells "you're under arrest!"

...and the average ticket sales would go down by about eighty percent.

Sure duuude, they'd start throwing beer bottles the second they hear that "roll Plymouth rock" acid alliteration and demand a refund.

[bossaroo]

the Cantina version was officially released nearly 20 years ago, on the box set as well as the Smiley 2-fer. It's the version on BWPS and The SMiLE Sessions as well. It's been in official circulation for quite some time. The "hum-be-dum" section of GV has been played live by the BBs in the past as well.

I find it strange that they played more SMiLE material (Wonderful, VegaTables) in conjunction with the GV boxset in '93, than in 2012 when the SMiLE tapes were released in their entirety.



Unfortunately, the blame does fall on Mike mostly. Brian and Mike have both stated that Mike is in charge of the setlist on this tour, with Brian adding a few suggestions like This Whole World and Please Let Me Wonder. In the case of Add Some Music and Marcella, we know Brian had to go out of his way to convince Mike to include them (according to Rolling Stone)

The setlist is too heavy on pre-65 material and covers. In other words, it resembles a Mike/Bruce show more than a Brian show. Which is ironic, considering they're using mostly Brian's band. Mike likes to say how brilliant the SMiLE music is, how great Wind Chimes and Wonderful are, he's even been telling people to seek out She's Goin' Bald and Wild Honey as of late ... so play that sh!t!!!

[Lonely Summer]

And for every new 'fan' who is 'only interested in the 1966/67 era' there are a thousand or so people who are only interested in the 1962-65 stuff.

http://www.last.fm/music/The+Beach+Boys/+charts?rangetype=week&subtype=tracks
Wow, you're right. Just compare the plays in the last week for Shut Down and That's Not Me. It's exactly "a thousand or so," like you said. Thank the Radio God that Mike Love is sparing us the non-commercial I Know There's An Answer in favor of crowd favorites like Little Honda.

Which is only any evidence for your statement if all the people playing Pet Sounds were people who were *only* interested in 'the 1966/67 era'.

In fact, the last.fm playlist stats pretty much always reflect the same listening pattern -- people listening to Sounds Of Summer, and people listening to Pet Sounds. Except that a lot of the people listening to Pet Sounds turn it off part-way into the album.

But your whole argument is fundamentally incoherent, anyway. Just because *you* think that the only worthwhile music the band made was in 1966 and 67 doesn't make it true. Nor does it mean that there is a massive audience out there who *only* want to hear that music and nothing else. Nor does it mean that the millions more people who have copies of songs like In My Room and Surfer Girl secretly don't like those songs.  And it definitely doesn't mean that it's a conspiracy by Mike Love to make Brian perform songs you don't like -- of the nine songs you cite as being 'agony', five of them (Catch A Wave, Don't Back Down, Little Deuce Coupe, In My Room and Surfer Girl) have been regulars in Brian's set. Brian's played In My Room and Surfer Girl at *every single show he's done*, bar none.

Remember that outside his Pet Sounds tours, Brian's not played anything other than the hits from Pet Sounds for years, while Mike's band have included Here Today and You Still Believe In Me. After the Smile tours ended in 2005, Brian's not played anything other than Heroes & Villains, which is also a regular in Mike's band's set, from Smile.   No matter *who* was in control of the setlist (and it seems to have been worked out by compromise) you'd never get the kind of setlist you seem to want, because while to a greater or lesser extent all the band members (except presumably David) see Pet Sounds (and to a lesser extent Smile) as their most important album, none of them see it as their *only* important album, or 1966 and early 1967 (because when you speak about 1967 you're clearly not counting either Smiley Smile or Wild Honey, so we're talking about up to March at best) as more important than the other forty-eight years and nine months of their career.

Nicely stated - and accurate. A few people here need to read this post, it's not like all Brian and his band played was deep tracks, and Mike/Bruce only played surfing/car/Kokomo hits.

[Dove Nested Towers]

They're playing them that way because those are the versions the majority of the fans know.

Hahahahahahahaha, right. And "the majority of fans" are surely listening to the Smiley Smile version, completely unaware of the original. No, I'm certain there's a whole club of people that know The Beach Boi~s did a song called Heroes and Villains while somehow being oblivious to an album called Smile.
And as if anyone is going to be bothered by the inclusion of the cantina or hum-be-dum sections.

Uh, wat.

The alleged "Smile versions" are 2011 inventions. They're not the originals. This is not how these songs were originally envisioned in the 60s for the Smile album, and above all, it's not how they were finished in 1966/1967. They're playing the version of "Good Vibrations" that has been known and loved by fans for 46 years, not the version that was edited for The Smile Sessions release last year. Same goes for "Heroes", although a few Smile references have been thrown in there. That's how the song was finished in 1967 and yes, that's the version most people are familiar with. The 2011 edit is not the "original".

So yeah. That's why they're playing the songs as they were finished back in 1966/1967 and not playing versions they've never performed before that were edited together in 2011.

To say that the alternate versions of H&V and GV were only 2011 edits is not entirely accurate. An acetate of a version of H&V including the "Cantina" section was recorded in '66/'67 and is included as a bonus track on the "Smiley Smile"/"Wild Honey" 2-fer, and a version of GV featured on the "Rarities" album served as a template for the SS edit. It certainly would not be out of line, and in fact would be a valid and adventurous artistic statement (much-needed IMO) to play either of those tracks (esp. H&V) in their alternate forms, and, far from alienating fans who may have never heard those versions, would almost undoubtedly only enhance their appreciation of the songs.

[Dove Nested Towers]

There's a fair amount of people that aren't showing up to these concerts because of the awful Mike Love setlist. The Smile Sessions brought A LOT of new fans who are only interested in the 1966/1967 material, and only performing five cuts from that era is not worth the agony of sitting through Little Honda, Catch A Wave, Don't Back Down, Little Deuce Coupe, Shut Down, 409, In My Room, Surfer Girl, or Be True To Your School.

kappa sez "In My Room" = worthless trash

Come on, d00d. These setlists are damn good, full of lots of unexpected additions and deeper cuts.

I enjoy your blaming of *everything* bad on Mike Love. I'm sure the guy is sitting there with a pen and paper, laughing maniacally as he writes "Heroes And Villains (aka total trash) (NO CANTINA SECTION FUCK THAT)" or something.

I also enjoy your dismissal of something like"In My Room" or "Surfer Girl", essential Brian Wilson tracks. Not getting those or dismissing them is not really getting Brian Wilson, just as not getting "Surf's Up" or "Heroes And Villains" isn't, to me. Sorry, I think they deserve a setlist spot as much as "Heroes And Villains", albeit for very different reasons. But hey, Mike added them to the setlist which only contains the biggest radio hits (like "This Whole World", "Please Let Me Wonder", "Marcella", "Add Some Music To Your Day", "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", etc. etc. etc. and not even adding "Kokomo" to the setlist until several dates in), so it must be a flaming pile of shit.

Mike ain't such a bad guy ^_^ A bit of an asshole, true, but not deserving of the amount of scorn you've thrown his way in this thread. Chill out u r an indian smoking some pizza from the ceremonial pipe or something39jtiegw

Obviously "In My Room" and "Surfer Girl" deserve inclusion, but some of the more redundant concert staples could be omitted in favor of more deep catalog songs. To say the sets are "full" of unexpected additions is exaggeration. Love has basically succeeded in imposing his preferred agenda on the setlists, "Marcella" and "Add Some Music" notwithstanding. There could be much more stunning sequences in the shows, but each one is derailed by a return to relatively pedestrian fare.There is simply not an adequate balance between the more commercial/shallow and the more ambitious/deep elements of the band. This is basically due to ML's preferences. He's not being as conniving about it as you suggest, but he's relentless and determined about it, and he has had his way and the band is basically presented in his image, not as the Wilson Bros. as a sibling unit (who are more truly the group's heart & soul IMO) wanted it to be, and that's a shame, again IMO, because they could be so much more than that, esp. in this last defining go-round.

[Dove Nested Towers]

Brian shouldn't have to beg ML to include Marcella and Add Some Music, if Brian asks Love to include them (or anything else) he should say Yes Sir, I don't care if he has kept the BB name alive on tour, that has served him well also and, even though he wrote many fine lyrics and has sung well (most of the time), as Dennis said "Brian IS the Beach Boys, we're just his messengers". A slight exaggeration perhaps, but only slight.

[Jonathan Blum]

To say the sets are "full" of unexpected additions is exaggeration. Love has basically succeeded in imposing his preferred agenda on the setlists, "Marcella" and "Add Some Music" notwithstanding.

..."Marcella", "Add Some Music", "This Whole World", "All This Is That", "California Saga", "Sail On Sailor", "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", "Kiss Me Baby", "Please Let Me Wonder", "Cottonfields", "That's Why God Made The Radio", "Isn't It Time", et cetera et cetera notwithstanding.

Take an actual look at the current setlists:  nearly half the tracks being played weren't hits.  For a tour which is trying to reach the hits-loving audience as much as the art-loving audience, that's about as fair a split as you can get.

Regards,
Jon Blum

[AndrewHickey]

Just because *you* think that the only worthwhile music the band made was in 1966 and 67 doesn't make it true. Nor does it mean that there is a massive audience out there who *only* want to hear that music and nothing else.

I never said that.

If you were to stop by any music boards not running phpBBS (there must be at least one extremely popular example you can think of) it's generally agreed upon there that Pet Sounds and Smile is the most worthwhile thing they ever did. I don't believe that, it's just the most popular understanding in between "The Beach Boys were a lame surf pop band" and "oh god Brian D. Wilson is a genius clearly their best albums were Adult/Child and Landlocked and his Disney covers were the highlight of 2011"

These same disappointed people are using the negligence of those albums as the excuse why they're not bothering to purchase a ticket. It's not my complaints, it's their complaints. And that's a pretty big "they". Don't shoot the messenger.

Those people may well exist -- but given that there are several hundred thousand people already going to this tour, apparently enjoying it, you've not actually made a case why the band should tailor their setlist to a small number of people who a) don't buy tickets to their shows and b) don't actually like anything they did in 97.5% of their career.

Personally, were I in the Beach Boys and putting together a setlist for a Beach Boys tour, I'd make my decisions based on what would appeal to *people who actually like the Beach Boys*. That would mean including most of the hits -- because a lot of people like those -- but also I'd throw in some of the better album tracks and some of the artier material, that more in-depth fans liked. Songs like Please Let Me Wonder, Disney Girls, Kiss Me Baby, This Whole World, Add Some Music, I Just Wasn't Made For These Times, Marcella, Forever, Sail On Sailor and All This Is That. And I'd *definitely* make sure that stuff that was both popular *and* artistically interesting -- like Heroes & Villains, Wouldn't It Be Nice, God Only Knows, Don't Worry Baby, In My Room... -- I'd make sure that was in the set too.

Because if you do that, then there's a good chance that people *who actually like the Beach Boys and buy tickets to their shows* will have a good time.

The setlist they're doing isn't what I'd pick if I wanted them to just do my favourite songs -- there'd be a couple more Smile songs in there, and a few off Love You, and no Kokomo or Barbara Ann, just for a start -- but it's a good compromise between a hits set (and many of the hits are great anyway) and a rarities set that only ten people would actually show up for.

I can't see how doing a *less* varied set, and one aimed at only people who haven't bought tickets to the show and don't like the band very much, could possibly be a better idea than what they're doing.

[UK_Surf]

At the UK premier of BWPS, the same people that were giving 10-minute standing ovations for each suite were going utterly *bananas* for Help Me Rhonda.

The emphasis is flipped for the harvest stadium tour. The hits have priority, and that's completely fine. The thing to do is to go completely nuts for the tunes that mean the most to you. That's what Smile fans in the UK did during the BW Pet Sounds tour, and maybe it played some small part in convincing him how much love there was for that material lurking in the mainstream.

[puni puni]

but also I'd throw in some of the better album tracks and some of the artier material, that more in-depth fans liked. Songs like Please Let Me Wonder, Disney Girls, Kiss Me Baby, This Whole World, Forever, Sail On Sailor and All This Is That.

But just about every track on Smile is still more popular and appreciated by more fans than anything you listed.

[AndrewHickey]

but also I'd throw in some of the better album tracks and some of the artier material, that more in-depth fans liked. Songs like Please Let Me Wonder, Disney Girls, Kiss Me Baby, This Whole World, Forever, Sail On Sailor and All This Is That.

But just about every track on Smile is still more popular and appreciated by more fans than anything you listed.

Says who?

[puni puni]

Says who?

You would have to be clinically insane to think Surf's Up or Cabinessence has less of a following than Disney Girls or Sail On Sailor.

So to answer your question, every single human being capable of rational thought.

[puni puni]

Take an actual look at the current setlists.

Okay.

Core, essential, non-removable songs [somewhat debatable]
Surfin' Safari
Surfer Girl
I Get Around
Don't Worry, Baby
In My Room
California Girls
Help Me Rhonda
Surfin' USA
Barbara Ann (The Regents cover)
Fun, Fun, Fun
Kokomo
Sloop John B
Wouldn't It Be Nice
God Only Knows
Do It Again
Forever
Heroes and Villains
Good Vibrations

Pre-Pet Sounds (1961-1965, spans 4 years) (Grand Total: 27)
Little Honda
Catch a Wave
Hawaii
Don't Back Down
Please Let Me Wonder
Then I Kissed Her (The Crystals cover)
Kiss Me, Baby
Why Do Fools Fall in Love (Frankie Lymon & The Teenagers cover)
When I Grow Up (to Be a Man)
Be True to Your School
Ballad of Ole' Betsy  
Little Deuce Coupe
409
Shut Down
All Summer Long
Do You Wanna Dance? (Bobby Freeman cover)

Pet Sounds (1966) (Grand Total: 4)
I Just Wasn't Made For These Times

Post-Smile (1967-2012, spans 45 years) (Grand Total: 14)
Marcella
This Whole World
Disney Girls
Isn't It Time?
Cotton Fields (Lead Belly cover)
It's OK
Add Some Music to Your Day
California Saga: California
Sail On Sailor
All This Is That
That's Why God Made the Radio
Rock and Roll Music (Chuck Berry cover)

Smile (1966-1967, spans 2 years) (Grand Total: 2)


What can we assess from this?
I think there's a lot of orange.

[AndrewHickey]

What can we assess from this?
I think there's a lot of orange.

Except that you keep changing the terms of the argument. A few posts ago you were saying that they shouldn't be playing Surfer Girl and In My Room at all, now you've got them in a list of 'core, essential, non-removable' songs -- a list that also includes Heroes & Villains (a song you were arguing before was unpopular in the form they're playing it) and Forever (a song which you claimed was less popular than *ANY* Smile song). You're also claiming that May 11 1966 through May 19, 1967 is somehow two years.

I would also argue that at least *some* 'humans capable of rational thought' might also think that songs like Disney Girls and Sail On Sailor, which have appeared on multi-million selling compilation albums, have more fans than songs like Holidays or Song For Children, which haven't.

You still haven't explained why you think the setlist should be based solely around the preferences of a hypothetical group of people who only like Pet Sounds and Smile, don't like anything else the Beach Boys have ever done, and don't buy tickets to see their shows, rather than around the preferences of people who like the Beach Boys and buy tickets to their shows.

I like the Bee Gees' concept album Odessa, and I also like Robin Gibb's unreleased solo album Sing Slowly Sisters, but I don't really like anything else the Bee Gees ever did very much. I never bought a ticket to a Bee Gees show, because I don't like them very much, apart from those two albums. Would it have made sense, when they planned a show (when they were still performing), for them to mostly do stuff off Odessa and Sing Slowly Sisters, or did it make sense for them to sing Stayin' Alive and Massachusetts and Tragedy? If it wouldn't have made sense for them to do that, why would it make any more sense for the Beach Boys to do essentially the same thing?

[puni puni]

Except that you keep changing the terms of the argument. A few posts ago you were saying that they shouldn't be playing Surfer Girl and In My Room at all, now you've got them in a list of 'core, essential, non-removable' songs -- a list that also includes Heroes & Villains (a song you were arguing before was unpopular in the form they're playing it) and

I changed my mind after some thought and looking over the setlists from the last forty years? The argument is, "why the f*** are they barely playing their most renowned work?" (In before "if you're a real Beach Boys fan then you'd know Cotton Fields was the apex of their recording career...")

Forever (a song which you claimed was less popular than *ANY* Smile song).

It is. But you can't take out the Dennis tribute.

I would also argue that at least *some* 'humans capable of rational thought' might also think that songs like Disney Girls and Sail On Sailor, which have appeared on multi-million selling compilation albums, have more fans than songs like Holidays or Song For Children, which haven't.

Whoa there, we both know Holidays and Song For Children aren't what everyone has in mind when we think "songs from Smile that The Beach Boys could and should be performing live". Just for the record, it's:
Heroes and Villains [✔]
Cabinessence [ ]
Surf's Up [ ]
Vega-Tables [ ]

You still haven't explained why you think the setlist should be based solely around the preferences of a hypothetical group of people who only like Pet Sounds and Smile

First you'll need to explain to me why either Little Honda, Hawaii, Ballad of Ole' Betsy, or Don't Back Down should take precedence over those tracks, and then I'll explain to you that...

Would it have made sense, for them to mostly do stuff off Odessa and Sing Slowly Sisters, or did it make sense for them to sing Stayin' Alive and Massachusetts and Tragedy? If it wouldn't have made sense for them to do that, why would it make any more sense for the Beach Boys to do essentially the same thing?

Countless magazines and music critics don't cite Odessa as the best album ever made by anyone.
Sing Slowly Sisters is likewise not often cited as having topped Odessa in that special numero uno de mundo spot.

In other words, Odessa isn't Pet Sounds, the pop music equivalent to Citizen Kane. Sing Slowly Sisters isn't Smile, the cornerstone of every indie rock album recorded in the last twenty years.

You're also claiming that May 11 1966 through May 19, 1967 is somehow two years.

You got me there.

[AndrewHickey]

I would also argue that at least *some* 'humans capable of rational thought' might also think that songs like Disney Girls and Sail On Sailor, which have appeared on multi-million selling compilation albums, have more fans than songs like Holidays or Song For Children, which haven't.

Whoa there, we both know Holidays and Song For Children aren't what everyone has in mind when we think "songs from Smile that The Beach Boys could and should be performing live". Just for the record, it's:
Heroes and Villains [✔]
Cabinessence [ ]
Surf's Up [ ]
Vega-Tables [ ]

But your claim wasn't "there are four Smile songs more popular than those songs", it was "just about every track on Smile is still more popular and appreciated by more fans than anything you listed". Which means Holidays and Song For Children and The Old Master Painter and Love To Say DaDa and Roll Plymouth Rock and...

You keep making ridiculous, unsupportable, hyperbolic claims, and then acting as if you said something utterly different from what you'd originally said.

You still haven't explained why you think the setlist should be based solely around the preferences of a hypothetical group of people who only like Pet Sounds and Smile

First you'll need to explain to me why either Little Honda, Hawaii, Ballad of Ole' Betsy, or Don't Back Down should take precedence over those tracks, and then I'll explain to you that...

No-one's saying they shouldn't play Pet Sounds or Smile tracks, if that's what they or the audience want. What I *am* arguing is that the setlist should be chosen based on what music *the people who go to the shows* want to hear, along with what the band want to play. Those songs have been chosen either because the audience like hearing them or the band like playing them. And even more, I'm arguing that a song not being on Pet Sounds or Smile shouldn't remove it from consideration. There are songs from those albums I'd like to hear more than some of the songs in the set (if you asked if they should swap Barbara Ann for Surf's Up, and it was only my taste that was being taken into account, of course they should), but likewise there are songs in these sets as good as -- or better than -- much of what's on those albums. Kiss Me Baby is better than Holidays. This Whole World is better than That's Not Me.

Your argument is that songs the band don't want to play should be chosen because people who aren't in the audience might want to hear them. Who benefits there? The audience don't -- they seem happy with what they're getting. The band don't -- they seem happy with the sets they're playing.

None of what you've said has actually supported this central absurd claim of yours -- that setlists should be based around the preferences of people who don't like the band and don't go to their gigs.