Heroes and Villains and Good Vibrations on the tour

[ontor pertawst]

The band don't -- they seem happy with the sets they're playing.

How do you figure? You don't think they have differing opinions? You're telling me juggling the needs and egos of a bunch of needy, loveably egocentric people doesn't result in a few ruffled feathers and passive aggressive gambits in public?

None of what you've said has actually supported this central absurd claim of yours -- that setlists should be based around the preferences of people who don't like the band and don't go to their gigs.

You're kinda warping his points out of all recognition and pretending that's what he's saying. It's not!

If Brian Wilson wants me scared by this tour... I WANNA BE SCARED! I wonder what the heck he meant by that?

(holds up his lighter and screams for HOLIDAYS at the top of his lungs)

[puni puni]

This Whole World is better than That's Not Me.

[AndrewHickey]

The band don't -- they seem happy with the sets they're playing.

How do you figure? You don't think they have differing opinions? You're telling me juggling the needs and egos of a bunch of needy, loveably egocentric people doesn't result in a few ruffled feathers and passive aggressive gambits in public?

I'm sure they all have songs they'd like to include, and songs they'd like to drop. But it's still the band who are making the decisions.

None of what you've said has actually supported this central absurd claim of yours -- that setlists should be based around the preferences of people who don't like the band and don't go to their gigs.

You're kinda warping his points out of all recognition and pretending that's what he's saying. It's not!

His original comment was:

There's a fair amount of people that aren't showing up to these concerts because of the awful Mike Love setlist. The Smile Sessions brought A LOT of new fans who are only interested in the 1966/1967 material, and only performing five cuts from that era is not worth the agony of sitting through Little Honda, Catch A Wave, Don't Back Down, Little Deuce Coupe, Shut Down, 409, In My Room, Surfer Girl, or Be True To Your School.

Again -- why should the preferences of the people who *aren't* going to the gigs, and only like a tiny proportion of the band's material anyway, be taken into account at all?

[ontor pertawst]

I'm sure they all have songs they'd like to include, and songs they'd like to drop. But it's still the band who are making the decisions.

Definitely. It's a lot of fun trying to figure it out, tho. ...and more than a bit tantalizing to consider full 2012 BB versions of Our Prayer and Surf's Up, as well... You can't blame folks for drooling over the prospect and arguing for it on a forum read by some of the folks involved in making that happen. It beats lobbying for "Our Prayer" to coworkers around the water cooler.

We'll find out a lot more about what the band thought in the coming months as interviews with the backing band come out, I expect. You know Brian's band and Al Jardine will have more than a few things to say on the setlist subject.

[puni puni]

No-one's saying they shouldn't play Pet Sounds or Smile tracks, if that's what they or the audience want. What I *am* arguing is that the setlist should be chosen based on what music *the people who go to the shows* want to hear, along with what the band want to play ... they seem happy with the sets they're playing.

How do you know the rest of the band isn't open to performing more Smile tracks? How do you know the only thing stopping them isn't Mike? We do know Dr. Love is in charge of the setlist. Brian wasn't happy leaving out Marcella. Mike was. Alan wants Our Prayer to open the second set. Mike doesn't.

Seems like it's not about what the band wants as much as it is what Mike wants. In my opinion, f*** what Mike Love wants. But that's just my opinion, so it's irrelevant.

Your argument is that songs the band don't want to play should be chosen because people who aren't in the audience might want to hear them. Who benefits there?

Mike Love benefits with green dolla bills. Isn't that what he says in the recent interviews? He always goes into detail with that consistently commercial point of view, and has concisely determined for himself what songs he thinks the people want him to play. Cheque this playa in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9VY3zbCt24#t=598s

None of what you've said has actually supported this central absurd claim of yours -- that setlists should be based around the preferences of people who don't like the band and don't go to their gigs.

I don't know why you keep saying that. I must have explained over and over just that it would be nice to hear the crow cry uncover the cornfield. If they only added in two or three or five more Pet Sounds and Smile tracks, it would appease everyone who is bitching for them to do EXACTLY that.

Again, Pet Sounds and Smile is objectively their "best" albums. That means the most popular. The most commercial and well-received.
http://rateyourmusic.com/artist/the_beach_boys
The Smile Sessions - 4.41
Pet Sounds - 4.25
Endless Summer - 4.13
20 Golden Greats - 4.09
Sounds of Summer - 4.09

Or is Rateyourmusic too newfangled for senior citizen Beach Boy fans to be considered a reasonable source of public opinion?

[AndrewHickey]

How do you know the rest of the band isn't open to performing more Smile tracks? How do you know the only thing stopping them isn't Mike? We do know Dr. Love is in charge of the setlist. Brian wasn't happy leaving out Marcella. Mike was. Alan wants Our Prayer to open the second set. Mike doesn't.

Seems like it's not about what the band wants as much as it is what Mike wants. In my opinion, f*ck what Mike Love wants. But that's just my opinion, so it's irrelevant.

And what evidence do you have that it's Mike not wanting to do those songs? None of them, together or separately, have performed any Smile material other than H&V (and in Al's case Vegetables) since 2005. The one time I've seen Brian asked about it in an interview, he was asked if they were going to do anything from Smile, and he said no -- and Mike asked him if they could at least do Heroes & Villains. They're doing fewer Pet Sounds songs than Mike's band have on tours I've seen, and more than Brian did the last two times I saw him.

We know Al wants to do Our Prayer, but do we actually know it's Mike not wanting them to do it? Or is it just you deciding, on no evidence, that Mike must be the bad guy who's blocking them from doing it?

Note that when Brian wanted to do Marcella and Add Some Music, and Mike didn't *Brian won*. They're doing both those songs. If Brian had said "I want to do Surf's Up and Cabinessence" he would no doubt have won that one too.

[puni puni]

We know Al wants to do Our Prayer, but do we actually know it's Mike not wanting them to do it? Or is it just you deciding, on no evidence, that Mike must be the bad guy who's blocking them from doing it?

Al asks Mike for Our Prayer
Mike says no
？？？
"WHY YOU ALWAYS GOTTA PICK ON THE LOVESTER?"

Note that when Brian wanted to do Marcella and Add Some Music, and Mike didn't *Brian won*. They're doing both those songs. If Brian had said "I want to do Surf's Up and Cabinessence" he would no doubt have won that one too.

That's it. I'm calling Brian on the phone myself and demanding he politely asks Mike to add some more Smile tracks.

[AndrewHickey]

I'm sure they all have songs they'd like to include, and songs they'd like to drop. But it's still the band who are making the decisions.

Definitely. It's a lot of fun trying to figure it out, tho. ...and more than a bit tantalizing to consider full 2012 BB versions of Our Prayer and Surf's Up, as well... You can't blame folks for drooling over the prospect and arguing for it on a forum read by some of the folks involved in making that happen. It beats lobbying for "Our Prayer" to coworkers around the water cooler.

Absolutely -- and there've been dozens of threads saying precisely that. But I strongly suspect the 'folks involved in making that happen' won't exactly be convinced by someone saying "f*ck what Mike Love wants", calling the set they're doing at the moment "the awful Mike Love setlist", saying "The Lovester thinks that he needs to sing Shut Down and 409, he should also apply that mindset to people that don't care for anything before and after 1966", and in general deciding to pick one band member to blame for the fact that the setlist isn't dominated by two albums at the expense of the entire rest of their career.

[ontor pertawst]

Ok, then let's be clever and Machiavellian.

Suggestion --

"Like the album sticker says -- HIT! Billboard smells hit. Commercial success. Sold out shows. Wow, Mike -- things are going great and your beloved UK shows from a few years back really wowed crowds, you should do something similar later this summer and play more stuff those Europeans like. Things sure are different over there but you're so good at tailoring setlists to individual audiences, Michael Edward Love!"

You can't blame fans for focusing on Love when all the reportage says he's responsible for the setlists, can you?

In conclusion, please don't throw us in the Smiley Sounds briar patch, Br'er Love!

[Dove Nested Towers]

To say the sets are "full" of unexpected additions is exaggeration. Love has basically succeeded in imposing his preferred agenda on the setlists, "Marcella" and "Add Some Music" notwithstanding.

..."Marcella", "Add Some Music", "This Whole World", "All This Is That", "California Saga", "Sail On Sailor", "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", "Kiss Me Baby", "Please Let Me Wonder", "Cottonfields", "That's Why God Made The Radio", "Isn't It Time", et cetera et cetera notwithstanding.

Take an actual look at the current setlists:  nearly half the tracks being played weren't hits.  For a tour which is trying to reach the hits-loving audience as much as the art-loving audience, that's about as fair a split as you can get.

Regards,
Jon Blum

"Isn't It Time" & "That's Why God Made the Radio" are being performed in order to promote the new album, so can't really be counted in the above equation (which doesn't seem to work out to "roughly half" at 1st impression, but haven't done the math).There is no shortage of uptempo hits in the set, no danger whatsoever of not reaching that audience, and it's condescending to assume that they would be put off by a larger sampling of slower "art" tracks. Andrew's repeated assertion that the constituency for those types of tunes are not attending the concerts (and therefore their opinions are irrelevant) is questionable. Maybe not, but maybe it's because they are disappointed not to have the opportunity to hear more of their favorites.

We know from ample anecdotal evidence that Love is the principal oppositional force in favor of relative conventionality, it's a red herring to suggest otherwise. The Jardine "Prayer" snub and grudging acceptance of "Marcella" are telling. He played more deep cuts on the previous BB tours in recent years, but now that the stakes are higher and Wilson is present I have a feeling that he has a stronger desire to put his stamp on this band lineup and career-capping tour, as definitive as is now possible. It would rankle if there were any further tilt in the direction of artistic ambition at the expense of commerciality, which would highlight a contrast with his basic vision for the group. There are definitely ego issues involves, at least to a degree, IMO, esp. when it comes to SMiLE material. He was willing to perform it "unplugged" in the '90s, with Carl still present, but it would be anathema to him to have to do any more of it in this context, and he would fight hard if any more significant pressure was applied from within (highly doubtful) in this regard.

MAJOR kudos to Jardine for pushing for it, speaking up for SU (and Dennis's opinion) on Charlie Rose, and even for leaking the delicious TSS info prematurely last year, indicating his enthusiasm. He talks enthusiastically about looking forward to sitting down and watching the GV session footage he was sent in the new PBS special, obviously more appreciative in retrospect of their more cutting-edge creative work, and reportedly regrets siding with Love and Johnston in the defining final battle for group direction in "78.

There was not a single mention of SMiLE in the PBS special, and you could just feel the tension against its inclusion and
the inability and resistance of Love to maturely integrate its unique heritage into a nuanced recounting of the group's history, which pop music historians will not judge him kindly for.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Did Al('s band) perform "Our Prayer" or "Surf's Up" at any of his shows?

[Jonathan Blum]

You would have to be clinically insane to think Surf's Up or Cabinessence has less of a following than Disney Girls or Sail On Sailor.

Which one have people ever heard on the radio?

Regards,
Jon Blum

[Jonathan Blum]

Take an actual look at the current setlists.

Okay.

(...)

What can we assess from this?
I think there's a lot of orange.

And I think there's a hell of a lot of non-orange for a band that's supposedly fixated on being a hit machine.

You seem determined to find reasons to discount the big slab of more adventurous music.  "Oh, playing Good Vibrations is obligatory" -- they're still playing it.  "Oh, they have to play songs from the new album to promote it" -- that doesn't explain why they're going beyond the single.  (Last time around they managed to promote "Summer In Paradise" without playing a single new song, actually -- the songs they played were the oldies on the album.  I don't think they've played two genuinely-all-new songs in the same concert in twenty-five years.)  And the underlying premise that playing "All This Is That" is an artistic statement while "Please Let Me Wonder" and "Kiss Me Baby" aren't because of the year in which they were recorded is just weird to begin with...

Regards,
Jon Blum

[Jonathan Blum]

Again, Pet Sounds and Smile is objectively their "best" albums. That means the most popular. The most commercial and well-received.
http://rateyourmusic.com/artist/the_beach_boys
The Smile Sessions - 4.41
Pet Sounds - 4.25
Endless Summer - 4.13
20 Golden Greats - 4.09
Sounds of Summer - 4.09

Or is Rateyourmusic too newfangled for senior citizen Beach Boy fans to be considered a reasonable source of public opinion?

Any survey on the net is going to be skewed towards younger generations.  And any survey on fannish matters like music is going to be skewed towards the hard core (who actually bother to vote) over the casual listener.

And it's loopy to think that the hard core -- who weren't even numerous enough to make "Smile" go gold, when Brian released it or when the sessions box set came out -- are going to buy that many more tickets than the closing-in-on-three-million people who bought "Sounds of Summer" alone.

BTW, anyone else think it's absolutely perfect that not one but two of the Greatest Hits got a score of 4.09?

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Jonathan Blum]

Al asks Mike for Our Prayer
Mike says no

...See, that second line is the bit you're just assuming.

If Al wants to do a song, but Brian isn't enthused by the idea of doing Smile stuff (as seen in a previous interview), and Bruce and David have expressed no opinion one way or the other (not surprising, seeing as they had nothing to do with the song), that's hardly Mike overruling the rest of the band.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Jonathan Blum]

..."Marcella", "Add Some Music", "This Whole World", "All This Is That", "California Saga", "Sail On Sailor", "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", "Kiss Me Baby", "Please Let Me Wonder", "Cottonfields", "That's Why God Made The Radio", "Isn't It Time", et cetera et cetera notwithstanding.

Take an actual look at the current setlists:  nearly half the tracks being played weren't hits.  For a tour which is trying to reach the hits-loving audience as much as the art-loving audience, that's about as fair a split as you can get.

"Isn't It Time" & "That's Why God Made the Radio" are being performed in order to promote the new album, so can't really be counted in the above equation

As said above: of course you can count them.  Last time around, they promoted their new album by playing remakes of "Hot Fun In The Summertime" and "Surfin'".  They promoted "Songs From Here And Back" and "Summer Love Songs" without ever playing the "new" tracks off them.  The very fact that they can't stick to oldies to promote their new album is already a sign of them being more adventurous than anytime in the past twenty-odd years...

There is no shortage of uptempo hits in the set, no danger whatsoever of not reaching that audience, and it's condescending to assume that they would be put off by a larger sampling of slower "art" tracks. Andrew's repeated assertion that the constituency for those types of tunes are not attending the concerts (and therefore their opinions are irrelevant) is questionable.

I don't think that's Andrew's assertion.  His point is that there isn't a significant "constituency" which is shunning the concerts because they only like the Pet-Sounds-era stuff -- because most of the people who are amazed by "Surf's Up" also appreciate tracks like "Please Let Me Wonder" and "Kiss Me Baby", not to mention "Fun Fun Fun" and "Help Me Rhonda".  Andrew's saying that the people who like the "art" tracks generally are attending the concerts, and it's silly to chase the subset of that subset who are boycotting them.

Personally I'm a huge Smile fan, I'd find it heart-stoppingly gorgeous to see the band do "Our Prayer" leading into "Heroes And Villains".  But I don't feel cheated if I merely hear them do 45 other songs I love.

We know from ample anecdotal evidence that Love is the principal oppositional force in favor of relative conventionality, it's a red herring to suggest otherwise.

No one doubts that Mike prefers the more mainstream stuff.  But the thing I think you're overlooking is that this is a tour of a band, with five different opinions involved.  If Brian, Al, Bruce, and David all wanted to do "Our Prayer" and Mike overruled them all, that would be one thing.  But if Al wants to do "Our Prayer" while Brian's not especially keen on doing "Smile" again, while David wants to play something with a good lead line and Bruce goes off on a rant about Obama not giving them press coverage... that's a more complex reason why it doesn't make the set.  Not one with one villain.

I have a feeling that he has a stronger desire to put his stamp on this band lineup and career-capping tour, as definitive as is now possible. It would rankle if there were any further tilt in the direction of artistic ambition at the expense of commerciality,

...Then he must be really rankled, because all the set additions since the start of the tour have been tilting in that direction.  Ferchrissake, they're playing "California Saga" now -- the Beach Boys are on stage in front of thousands of people singing about Steinbeck!  Did you ever think that would happen again?

And I'm expecting one or two more additions once they start touring in Europe and Australia, which have always had a higher concentration of art fans.  Just like Mike added so many deep tracks on their UK tour which he'd never play in the States.  Might be "Our Prayer", might be "Good Timin'" or "Lady Lynda".  I don't know -- but I'm looking forward.

Personally I think the stamp Mike's interested in putting on things is "fun first, art second" -- which is not the same as wanting to expunge all that artsy stuff from the record.  Which is why he's putting out a set list with half a dozen songs from "Pet Sounds" and "Smile", three from that notorious commercial flop "Sunflower", and five from their early-'70s hipster-cred phase (versus a resounding four from the next twenty-five years of endless summer).

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Mr. Cohen]

I think it's time we petition in favor  of getting "Lookin' At Tomorrow" on the setlist. Given the sorry state of the US economy and the lack of jobs for skilled tradesmen, I fill the song could really resonate. Jardine was just 40 years ahead of his time.

[puni puni]

You would have to be clinically insane to think Surf's Up or Cabinessence has less of a following than Disney Girls or Sail On Sailor.

Which one have people ever heard on the radio?

Likely the former on College radio stations and the like. Gotta count internet radio too. Funny how neither Disney Girls or Sail On Sailor are available on last.fm. I doubt anyone noticed when Sail On Sailor was played on the radio five times during the entirety of 1973.

You seem determined to find reasons to discount the big slab of more adventurous music.

And you're determined to defend the fact that they're playing significantly more album tracks from their virtually unknown LPs than album tracks from two of the most lauded records ever produced by anybody.

And it's loopy to think that the hard core -- who weren't even numerous enough to make "Smile" go gold, when Brian released it or when the sessions box set came out -- are going to buy that many more tickets than the two million people who bought "Sounds of Summer" alone.

Aren't the hardcore the ones that haven been showing up to as many shows as they can?
Isn't Brian Wilson's Smile number one on Metacritic?
Wasn't it nominated for numerous Grammys?
Wasn't The Smile Sessions voted Best New Reissue by Pitchfork?
Isn't a band supposed to be performing the songs that have garnered the most praise?
Aren't younger people supposed to be the ones interested in concerts?

BTW, anyone else think it's absolutely perfect that not one but two of the Greatest Hits got a score of 4.09?

Is the score supposed to be low just because it's a compilation?

If Al wants to do a song, but Brian isn't enthused by the idea of doing Smile stuff (as seen in a previous interview), and Bruce and David have expressed no opinion one way or the other (not surprising, seeing as they had nothing to do with the song), that's hardly Mike overruling the rest of the band.

Then why doesn't Al just ask Bruce, David, or Brian? Why bother going to Mike at all?

because most of the people who are amazed by "Surf's Up" also appreciate tracks like "Please Let Me Wonder" and "Kiss Me Baby"

And what fraction of people that are amazed by Surf's Up are amazed by Surf's Up? Please tell me it's somewhere between 99.99999% and 100%.

And the underlying premise that playing "All This Is That" is an artistic statement while "Please Let Me Wonder" and "Kiss Me Baby" aren't because of the year in which they were recorded is just weird to begin with...

When all else fails, put words in their mouths.

I still don't get the myth that it's totally and utterly unreasonable to add in a couple more 1966/1967 tracks because "if they did then no one would show up."
Who is against the Smile material? Are they the same people who adore All This Is That and Marcella? Why would performing more 1966/1967 cuts be an issue with the audience? WHO WOULD COMPLAIN?

"How was The Beach Boys concert?"
"It was horrible! They overfilled the setlist with that insufferable 'Pat Stounz' and 'Smoyle' malarky and played Here Today and Our Prayer instead of Funky Pretty or And Your Dreams Come True. I want my f*cking money back."

[KittyKat]

I wouldn't want to hear "Surf's Up" because Brian can't sing it anymore.  He can sing parts of it but not the high parts.  I wouldn't want to hear a member of the backing band singing part of that song.  That's just MO.  It takes away the emotion if Brian can't sing the high parts.  My personal favorite is that video clip of just him at a piano and it's because he could sing that high back then. Besides, Brian already did the Smile tour.  I'm not sure Brian ever did it in his solo concerts after that or not often.  I haven't stayed on top of all Brian's solo shows over the years so I'm not sure. It could be he wishes he could still sing like that and it's not as much fun for him that he can't sing those high notes.   As far as "Our Prayer," I'd rather hear Add Some Music as a group harmony song because it's a longer song.  Prayer isn't really a song.  Though it would be okay as introduction to H & V and that's where it belongs.  Maybe it will be added some time.   "Wonderful" or "Wind Chimes" might be possible because Brian can still sing those and Mike has said he likes them.  But I bet they'd only do them in Europe and not in the US.

Oh, wait, Wind Chimes is too high for Brian, too.  Maybe parts of Wonderful.  But it would be more okay to hear a backing band member singing those parts than on "Surf's Up."  The best part of SU is young Brian and the way he sounded on it and it's too bad he doesn't sound like that anymore.

[Jim V.]

Hey Kapper, listen, maybe it's BRIAN that doesn't wanna do a bunch of SMiLE songs. He did say in an interview recently that he didn't wanna perform the album, so likely he is performing the songs that he prefers, therefore we get "Heroes And Villains" and "Good Vibrations". I'm sure if he wanted they would do "Cabin Essence" or "Wonderful" or whatever he wanted if it was up to him. Seeing as how he wanted to do "Please Let Me Wonder", "This Whole World", "Marcella", etc and those made it in the set list, I'm assuming that if he wanted to do more Pet Sounds or SMiLE stuff, it would happen, as, ya know, the guy is the leader of the band!

"How was The Beach Boys concert?"
"It was horrible! They overfilled the setlist with that insufferable 'Pat Stounz' and 'Smoyle' malarky and played Here Today and Our Prayer instead of Funky Pretty or And Your Dreams Come True. I want my f*cking money back."

Crappy attempt at runnersdialzero like humor. Try again.

[puni puni]

I wouldn't want to hear "Surf's Up" because Brian can't sing it anymore.  He can sing parts of it but not the high parts.

You could say that with just about every song Brian has a vocal in.

maybe it's BRIAN that doesn't wanna do a bunch of SMiLE songs.

Would be fine with me if that were the case! Unfortunately, that isn't quite exactly the atmosphere being conveyed. What has been said is that Mister Love controls the setlist. Not the band, but Mister Love! If another article comes up with something along the lines of,

"Yeah, you know," Brian begins to say, "Mike asked me if I wanted to sing, you know, Cabinessence? From my album in 2004? 'No, Mike! Are you kidding?'" When I caught up with lead singer and setlist manager Mike Love, he had explained that, "Trying to convince Cousin Brian to swap Don't Back Down with Hang On To Your Ego is like pulling teeth from a horse. I even apologized for all the stuff I said about him being shitty and non-commercial, and he still refuses to play the acid tunes." Mike, I thought you were the one who controls what the band plays? "Oh, no. It's a democracy. God only knows Cousin Brian is the one who decides everything as the band leader. We all still believe in him and his good vibrations bop bop."

Then I would personally have no problem with anybody. Nothing like that has come up yet! What has come up, though, is the fact that Mike has disputed what the other band members want to play.

Which is completely fine from an objective point of view as well!

But I don't like the Lovester's attitude, so I have a problem with his visions.

Crappy attempt at runnersdialzero like humor. Try again.

I wasn't made for these times.

[Jonathan Blum]

You would have to be clinically insane to think Surf's Up or Cabinessence has less of a following than Disney Girls or Sail On Sailor.

Which one have people ever heard on the radio?

Likely the former on College radio stations and the like. Gotta count internet radio too. Funny how neither Disney Girls or Sail On Sailor are available on last.fm. I doubt anyone noticed when Sail On Sailor was played on the radio five times during the entirety of 1973.

Meanwhile on planet Earth...  "Sail On Sailor" was enough of an FM radio mainstay to chart twice.  "Surf's Up" was released as a single and never troubled the Hot 100.

Back when I was in college, college radio never touched the Beach Boys, but I heard "Sail On Sailor" fairly regularly on the mainstream classic rock station (105.9 WCXR).  And that's a couple of decades later...

You seem determined to find reasons to discount the big slab of more adventurous music.

And you're determined to defend the fact that they're playing significantly more album tracks from their virtually unknown LPs than album tracks from two of the most lauded records ever produced by anybody.

Nope.  "Pet Sounds" is one of the most represented albums in the current setlist.

(Only "Today" has more tracks being played -- though it depends how you count "Help Me R(h)onda".  "Today", of course, is their next highest rated album in the Rolling Stone Top 500, and was also one of their biggest sellers.  Is that what you're thinking of as a "virutally unknown LP"?)

Only "Smile" is arguably under-represented -- and "Smile", of course, was never actually released.  Neglecting that album doesn't equal neglecting their acclaimed artistic side, which does not rest solely on "Smile" or "Pet Sounds".

You seem to have a problem with the idea that they had a bunch of other creatively-lauded successful albums besides "Pet Sounds"...

Regards,
Jon Blum

[Micha]

Maybe in the UK it's different. Heroes and Villains is incredibly obscure to me; I hadn't even known it existed until a couple years ago. I asked several people after if they'd heard of it (including my mom) and no one did.

A couple of months ago I happened to hear H&V being played on the radio for the very first time, the original single. I usually don't listen to standard radio shows, but I was at my mother's place, and it came on as we talked. It turned out this was a quiz show (or is it called "quiz program" in English?), and the candidate had to guess who did that song. The candidate guessed right, but he claimed he had never heard that song before.

I mean, that's telling, isn't it, that they use H&V as a question on a quiz show!

My father however, knew the song.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Well I don't think anybody on this board or any fan at all would be disappointed if they dropped Ballad of Ole Betsy, Then I Kissed Her, and Why Do Fools Fall in Love in favor of say maybe Caroline No, Surf's Up, and Wonderful.

[Tristero]

It’s kind of fascinating to read this thread and get another glimpse of the various different factions within the Beach Boys’ fan community.  Given some of kappa’s presumptuous, biased assertions, I think I can finally understand why some longtime fans get aggravated with those that are exclusively drawn to their 1966/1967 period—and I speak as a huge fan of that stuff.  Honestly, kappa, you’re giving us Smile-heads a bad name with your narrow minded focus on that brilliant but brief phase of their career.

To be honest, I never really connected with the Beach Boys much when I was young.  I was more of a British Invasion kind of kid and while the Boys were catchy, I couldn’t relate to the subject matter or their seemingly clean cut image.  I changed my tune big time in the 90’s by way of Pet Sounds, the I Just Wasn’t Made For These Times doc, and the Smile material, my abiding obsession.  The fact that this stuff was so strange and different from the big hits I was familiar with made it all the more intriguing.  But getting exposed to that stuff opened me up to the broader brilliance of their whole catalog—both their earlier hits (and excellent albums like Today! and Summer Days…) and the “wilderness years” of the late 60’s and the 70’s, as the rest of the band stepped up to help fill the void left by Brian.  Needless to say, there’s a lot more to the Beach Boys’ legacy than just Pet Sounds/Smile.  

Would I like to see them feature more of their arty, experimental stuff, particularly material from Smile?  Sure, but I really wasn’t expecting much of that from this tour and it seems pretty churlish to turn your nose up at its exclusion.  This is reunion tour is a celebration of their entire body of work, not just their ambitious artistic heyday, and I’m sure that the majority of fans are coming to see the big hits, the catchy “fun in the sun” fare, not the Grammy winning Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow.  I’m pleased to see them pulling out some more offbeat material like All This Is That and California Saga, along with plenty of Pet Sounds, offering a broader, balanced picture of their work.  As others have suggested, I imagine Brian is just as reluctant to revisit Smile as Mike is at this juncture—remember, Brian was the one who resisted its release for so long and who has long been ambivalent about it.  (I may have briefly bought into the whole “Mike as villain who wouldn’t allow them to f*ck with the formula” myth back in the 90’s, but the reality is a lot more complicated than that and for all his faults, I’ve made my peace with Big Love.) The idea that a significant number of “fans” are passing this tour up because they’re not doing enough Smile is laughable and it’s more than a little presumptuous of a narrowly focused newbie to seek to impose his wishes on the vast majority who have loved the Boys for decades and appreciate their entire body of work.  If they ever decide to break out Do You Like Worms?, I'll be thrilled, but until then, I'll gladly groove to I Get Around, Please Let Me Wonder and Marcella.