A smileysmile.net intervention

[monicker]

I would like to open a discussion here in the hopes of promoting more tolerance. This is not intended to try to rain on the parade and ruin what is good news to many people. Rather, it is to raise an issue that i think affects us not only in this forum, but interpersonally and culturally. The cultural binary of positivity/negativity (even just the usage of those terms) is one that frustrates me greatly and i think that ultimately it’s rather poisonous. I believe that excessive positivity and excessive negativity can each be just as harmful, deluding, and counterproductive. One of the problems, however, is that only “negativity” is ever viewed as a form of twisted or distorted thinking. “Positivity” is just the default, the norm, no matter how excessive or extreme.

Year after year, the pattern demonstrated on this forum is that if, in whatever way, you’re not okay with or do not like a new release and are critical of it, your views are dismissed, and you may even be villainized and borderline bullied. I find it curious how this seems to almost entirely apply to NEW releases only, but that’s something for a whole other discussion. (It’s more than okay to trash Summer In Paradise, but what if that album never existed until it was a 2012 new release? An interesting thing to ponder for sure...)   

So, one of the most common dismissive attitudes around the time of a new release is typically expressed as the following:

People will complain no matter what.
People will be critical no matter what.
People will dislike it no matter what.
People will be unhappy about it no matter what.

Well, okay. How about:

People will approve no matter what.
People will be uncritical no matter what.
People will like it no matter what.
People will be happy about it no matter what.

Why is one of these sides okay while the other isn’t? Why does EVERYONE have to like EVERYTHING? Why must everyone agree on tastes? Why is an opposing opinion of taste taken personally?

One of the most curious things about policing "negativity" is the prevalent attitude that you should be positive, yet if you have anything other than really low expectations before a release, well then guess what, you were TOO positive and you’re foolish for expecting, and further, wanting something better. So just expect the worst and then be happy with it when you get it. Got it? It’s kind of like a cult in here.

Okay, so i don’t want to end on a negative note here. What i think would be nice is a civil discussion where views about this topic are expressed, where we can maybe come to some sort of a mutual understanding of the polarized opinions that we hold about the one thing that we all have in common here. The fact of the matter is that every single member of this forum loves The Beach Boys, otherwise they wouldn’t be here.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

This is such a stupid topic and you are a horrible person!!  

Just kidding. I love you.

[Wirestone]

This post is like saying: "Cancer is bad; we can agree on that. But have we all paused to consider how destructive being cancer-free is? Surely not having malignant tumors growing inside of my is every bit as problematic as actually having them. Right? Right?"

So I was acting like an idiot here. Wasn't the first time, won't be the last. I would take this down, but too many people have seen it. 

[runnersdialzero]

C'mon Stoney, surely you're not likening people criticizing sound quality issues to cancer!

Also, there's genuine positivity (which I absolutely appreciate and which is the kind you display) and there's the blatantly forced love-it-or-leave-it-LOL positivity police (which I do not appreciate).

[anazgnos]

Naw, he's just saying if there's a kneejerk dismissal of the opinions of those who aren't totally bowled over by everything the BBs are doing, it makes the board really unwelcoming for a big swath of people. 

[Too Much Sugar]

Naw, he's just saying if there's a kneejerk dismissal of the opinions of those who aren't totally bowled over by everything the BBs are doing, it makes the board really unwelcoming for a big swath of people. 

Exactly.  There are few worse ways to stop a good, intellectual discourse than to throw out things like "hater!" or "you're being negative!", as if it rebuts an argument. 

[Aegir]

This post is like saying: "Cancer is bad; we can agree on that. But have we all paused to consider how destructive being cancer-free is? Surely not having malignant tumors growing inside of my is every bit as problematic as actually having them. Right? Right?"

this is only one step away from comparing someone to Hitler.

[AndrewHickey]

This post is like saying: "Cancer is bad; we can agree on that. But have we all paused to consider how destructive being cancer-free is? Surely not having malignant tumors growing inside of my is every bit as problematic as actually having them. Right? Right?"

It really isn't. It does no-one any harm at all if those people who don't like what they've heard of the new album can say so without being shouted down.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Well, I've just PM'd you Wirestone, but actually on second thoughts, I think I will risk an outburst from you. Quite frankly, I don't care.

My sister has cancer at the moment, and I'm sure there are other people on here who are, or have been affected by it. Seeing it used as an example to win an argument in such a flippant and offhand way has made me really angry.

People being positive or negative on this board is nothing like a disease which has a very large chance of robbing me of my beloved sister.

You're always quick to police people, and have challenged me on several occasions for things you deemed inappropriate or offensive. I apologised on those occasions, but next time I will just be ignoring you. You've just lost the right to criticise people, as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry Monicker.

[Cam Mott]

Now we needed an intervention on interventioning.

[hypehat]

There's no problem with complaining, but turning round and bitching at people who don't agree with you is churlish and stupid. If the mods had any sense the wordfilter would put IMO at the end of every post so no-one goes and gets angry at each other.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Now we needed an intervention on interventioning.

So glad you find it funny.

[Too Much Sugar]

I think the problem message boards are prone to (and people in general) is when the discussion turns from debating the claims someone makes (which is good and can be intellectually stimulating) to attacking the psychological reasons behind it (which is bad and fallacious).  If I'm arguing my gas tank is full, and you disagree, you can't possibly come to that conclusion by examining my psychological condition (i.e. how negative or positive I am, etc.).  The only way to find out is to look at my gas tank.  If it's full, then any psychologizing is futile.  If I'm wrong, examining my psychology to see why I thought that could be interesting, but you could only do that after you found out whether or not my gas tank is full.  

The point is, I think this mind set has permeated this board a little bit, lately.  When someone makes a claim about the new album, it's not always met with a response dealing with those criticisms, but with needlessly dismissive attacks.  "Well, there's always someone who has to complain!", or "you're being negative!  Can't you just be positive and enjoy this?!  What's wrong with you?!" all of which are basically ways of just saying "shut up, I don't like what you're saying!" If the production of the songs we've heard is criticized, then there's posts about the psychology of people who thought previous productions were also bad, as if that's somehow relevant to current criticisms of the new album.  

So I get what Monicker is saying.  The "negativity police" has been a bit much lately (their negativity about negativity is so negative!), not to mention it has stifled good conversation.  So blankety-blank what if you're being negative?  Sometimes it's good to be negative (or I suppose realistic), to discern between what's good and what's bad.  After all, if extreme negativism can lead to distorted thinking (which it can), then surely extreme positivism can also lead to similar effects.  Why the asymmetry?  

Hopefully the discussions will become a bit more civil again...  

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I refuse to argue about opinions. If somebody said that 'God Only Knows' was their least favorite song in the BB catelog, I would disagree but they have the right to that opinion. I would never call that person an idiot, I would let somebody else do it.   On the other hand, when an historian such as Stebbons or Doe give us documented facts and somebody insists on disagreeing, then they are ignorant.

[hypehat]

I refuse to argue about opinions. If somebody said that 'God Only Knows' was their least favorite song in the BB catelog, I would disagree but they have the right to that opinion. I would never call that person an idiot, I would let somebody else do it.   On the other hand, when an historian such as Stebbons or Doe give us documented facts and somebody insists on disagreeing, then they are ignorant.

*applauds vigorously*

[Cam Mott]

Now we needed an intervention on interventioning.

So glad you find it funny.

Thanks, I try. Even though I thought intervention was a little strong and that the intervention is now being interventioned I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion and we all should be civil.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

*whew* Guess it's time to meditate

[bcdam]

after enough time has passed, people will be over the petty back and forth ("not good enough for what I expected/want" vs "how dare you say anything bad!") and be able to look at it critically...

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I refuse to argue about opinions. If somebody said that 'God Only Knows' was their least favorite song in the BB catelog, I would disagree but they have the right to that opinion. I would never call that person an idiot, I would let somebody else do it.   On the other hand, when an historian such as Stebbons or Doe give us documented facts and somebody insists on disagreeing, then they are ignorant.

*applauds vigorously*

Feeding my ego as I stand in my white robe

[Dunderhead]

*whew* Guess it's time to meditate

Best post I think I've ever seen.

(not being factitious)

[b00ts]

after enough time has passed, people will be over the petty back and forth ("not good enough for what I expected/want" vs "how dare you say anything bad!") and be able to look at it critically...

Yes, I am sure if this board had existed in 1985, many of the conversations taking place about the new album would apply to the Beach Boys album from that year. In the fullness of time, people can look at it objectively.

I think that many people here feel like this is a miracle that we are getting a new Beach Boys album, and in some ways, it is... then, you have Mike singing on "Sprint Vacation" about "easy money" and I remember that I spent $300 on concert tickets... and this all seems like more of an inevitability than a miracle.

Still, it's nice that we have new product from the Boys.

[onkster]

I prefer to take from the philosophy of Chaucer: "Take the fruit, and let the chaff be still."

There's plenty of stuff I get disappointed by and don't like, but I see no point--for myself--in going on and on about it. But that's just me.

The worst thing about the board in the last 2 years has been its de-evolution from a "gentleman's club" (and ladies', too) into a more typical internet mudpuddle--it's the insults and name-calling that kill it for me, especially when it goes on and on and has a history going back for years. (Yeah, I'm talking to you, guys-that-know-who-you-are!) If a fight begins, take to PM, I say, and don't make the rest of us wade through your crap.

I don't care if people out-and-out hate what they're hearing, but the childish personal interplay has got to stop, lest this place become the craphole that is the 910. (A Beatles board, for those who aren't familiar.)

[Mikie]

What's this thread about again?

[Ron]

I'll summarize it for you:

He's reserving the right to bitch about the album, and he doesn't want anybody to overly appreciate the album. 

[Jason]

Moved to the Sandbox as this has f*** all to do with the Beach Boys. You wanna fight it out? Fight it out here.