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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #275 on: May 15, 2012, 12:00:37 PM »

And, apart from all the side issues, the bottom line is the painkiller issue I already raised: We have seen a system which is failing more and more each day when dealing with prescription narcotics which are strictly regulated and legal, and controlled by the government. Why should we believe that the same system and the same government will be successful if and when more types of currently illegal drugs are legalized?

Pescription drugs are not "strictly regulated...and controlled by the government." I repeat, prescription drug prices are set by the pharmaceutical industry and unlike in other industrialized countries, the US is prohibited from negotiating these prices. Consequently, drug prices are higher than they are in any other industrialized country. And as a result, according to a recent study, "the pharmaceutical industry is — and has been for years — the most profitable of all businesses in the U.S." What role the government has - in fact, the role the public has - is paying for the costs of developing drugs (not the manufacturing, which costs comparatively little) and as studies have shown, more than half of Big Pharma's development costs typically go into the making of copycat drugs in order to stay competetive on the market. This is the worst system imaginable - not only does the public pay for this kind of mis-spending but they pay more when such mis-spending leads to the high cost of drugs. To me, the facts show, that the problem with prescription medicine has nothing to do with the government's role - outside of the government's role in protecting the interests of these corporations. The problem mostly is that the needs of the public are quite simply inconsequential when compared to the needs for profit.

Under my health plan, prescription painkillers of the variety I was prescribed after at least two somewhat major surgeries would cost me about 2 dollars for about a week or 10 days' supply as ordered by the surgeon(s) at the time, give or take. But I work full time, I pay for my own health insurance out of my own salary at a 100% rate, and this is what I receive in return. Is it a perfect plan? No. Are the rates too high? Perhaps. But I pay for what I receive.

I also declined to have those prescriptions filled, and the slip went unused and eventually destroyed and discarded. I chose Tylenol instead, over the counter and easier on my stomach. It was my choice to do that, as it would have been my choice to do something else with those pills if I did receive them, something other than what they were prescribed for.

The notion that high costs are driving the black market is just a little bit dishonest, because if you are employed and you either buy or pay into a pool for you health insurance, the cost of a painkiller when used as prescribed and as directed by a doctor is *FAR LESS* than what the average piece of sh*t dealer on the black market is charging.

And again, if we legalize, say, heroin...who sets the limit? Who sets the allotment for each person? Who decides if the hardcore addict receives twice the amount of anyone else? Who sets those limits and if taxed, who collects and receives those tax amounts? What does an addict do after they have shot their entire monthly stipend in their system within 3 days? What prevents black market and backstreet sales to those addicts seeking more?

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« Reply #276 on: May 15, 2012, 12:06:18 PM »

I fail to see how the basic human reaction of stopping someone from walking in front of a moving vehicle relates *in any way* to a discussion of topics related to socialized medicine curing the ills of the prescription painkiller mess.

And I fail to see how one is a "basic human reaction" and the other isn't. I would say that the reason why we don't feel morally obligated to set up a system to protect people is because it is ideologically driven into our skulls from virtually the beginning of our education, that we're not supposed to look out for other people. This is somewhat theoretical but it seems to me that the level of indoctrination that goes into convincing people that they should be primarily looking out for themselves suggests to me that this a reaction against what is probably a very basic impulse to help people.

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I could see it this way, in theory:

If I see someone walking in the street, and see them fall, I will go over and help them up. And if they are injured or need additional help, I will do my best to provide it. That is my choice.

On the other hand:

I do not need an employee of the government giving me an order to report to 7th Avenue and Main Street of my town and stand there on duty from 7 am to 3 pm to watch for anyone who might trip and fall on that street corner and require assistance.

Again, this is supposed to be a democracy. What you're describing is a totalitarian dictatorship, and it seems to me that that's not the system we're supposed to live in. In a functioning democracy, it is the people who give the government orders and if the people decide that they want a public health care system (which, according to most reports, they do) then the government should abide by that.
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« Reply #277 on: May 15, 2012, 12:08:26 PM »

We have seen a system which is failing more and more each day when dealing with prescription narcotics which are strictly regulated and legal, and controlled by the government. Why should we believe that the same system and the same government will be successful if and when more types of currently illegal drugs are legalized?

I come back to GF's point again.

To me, the hard drugs amount to slavery by other means.  People trapped by these drugs cause misfortune to themselves and all those around them.  In 2006 there were around 18,000 DUI traffic DEATHS.  Just imagine having a family member killed in this way.

So, just on the point of legalizing (hard) drugs, there are really no facts present that can convince me that legalization would be anything other than ruinous RUINOUS for our society.  And, the cartels would find a way to stay involved IMHO.

Through education/comfort/caring whatever, we have to bring people back from drug use, not encourage it.  (Even though, as I said, the "war on drugs" is a sick joke.)  Hard drugs are POISON!

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Rockandroll, I assume GF was referring to the FDA which controls drugs but doesn't, as you discussed, PRICE them.  NO QUESTION, if you are sick or ill you are at BIG PHARMA'S MERCY and I have no idea what the answer is for that.

(thanks to Grillo and TRBB too -- all excellent posts!  EPIC Sandbox!)
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« Reply #278 on: May 15, 2012, 12:20:54 PM »

Under my health plan, prescription painkillers of the variety I was prescribed after at least two somewhat major surgeries would cost me about 2 dollars for about a week or 10 days' supply as ordered by the surgeon(s) at the time, give or take. But I work full time, I pay for my own health insurance out of my own salary at a 100% rate, and this is what I receive in return. Is it a perfect plan? No. Are the rates too high? Perhaps. But I pay for what I receive.

Right and people in every other industrialized country on the whole pays less for receiving the same.

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I also declined to have those prescriptions filled, and the slip went unused and eventually destroyed and discarded. I chose Tylenol instead, over the counter and easier on my stomach. It was my choice to do that, as it would have been my choice to do something else with those pills if I did receive them, something other than what they were prescribed for.

I fail to see the point of this anecdote.

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The notion that high costs are driving the black market is just a little bit dishonest,

Well, it's certainly not just high costs. The prohibition of drugs certainly drives the black market.

Yes, the black market exploits people who are addicted but again, this is why education is ultimately crucial. It's unquestionable though that high drug prices are very much related to drug-related criminal activity. As the Associated Press recently noted, after a spike in pharmaceutical heists, "experts say the reasons include spotty security and high drug prices that can make such thefts extremely lucrative."
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 12:34:54 PM by rockandroll » Logged
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« Reply #279 on: May 15, 2012, 12:28:28 PM »

I come back to GF's point again.

To me, the hard drugs amount to slavery by other means.  People trapped by these drugs cause misfortune to themselves and all those around them.  In 2006 there were around 18,000 DUI traffic DEATHS.  Just imagine having a family member killed in this way.

It would be tragic - and, according to the statistics, there would have been over twice as many fatalities had it not have been for education and treatment programs. Like I said, that is a unique success and what it dramatically suggests is that education can play a decisive role in prevention, just as it has done in the case of cigarettes, a drug incidentally, that had a far more "RUINOUS" effect on our society than any drug you could mention.

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Through education/comfort/caring whatever, we have to bring people back from drug use, not encourage it.  (Even though, as I said, the "war on drugs" is a sick joke.)  Hard drugs are POISON!

I agree.

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Rockandroll, I assume GF was referring to the FDA which controls drugs but doesn't, as you discussed, PRICE them.  NO QUESTION, if you are sick or ill you are at BIG PHARMA'S MERCY and I have no idea what the answer is for that.

I do. Eliminate Big Pharma.
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« Reply #280 on: May 15, 2012, 06:09:41 PM »

So, just on the point of legalizing (hard) drugs, there are really no facts present that can convince me that legalization would be anything other than ruinous RUINOUS for our society.  And, the cartels would find a way to stay involved IMHO.
The open and honest reality of substance abuse is enough to serve most people.  Is that equal to the results of laws and enforcement?  That's the question.

Regarding facts -- Do you stay away from the pot because it's illegal or because you don't want to do it?  What motivates you?  Those are facts that you can use.

To people who trust in people, and to people who don't care what other people do -- laws and enforcement are simply a last resort -- otherwise they are an insult to their (and all human) intelligence.  It totally degrades.  Plus...boat loads of wasted money.

It's legal to buy glue and paint thinner.  People do it, I've heard.  If they were made illegal to possess, people would still do it.  But, Hollywood would glamorize it -- and more would probably do it.  Alcohol was banned and MORE people did that.  That's a fact.

The fact I always remember is --- if it's (whatever it is) is made illegal -- you guarantee that only law breakers will do it.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 06:13:55 PM by Bean Bag » Logged

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« Reply #281 on: May 15, 2012, 06:31:36 PM »

I do. Eliminate Big Pharma.
If we bought our drugs within a free market -- just like we buy our groceries -- it would be much cheaper.  There's no need to over think this.

Health care today will be even worse now that Bureaucratic Big Government will be taking over.  It's a mess turning into a horrific disaster.  Sarah Palin was right -- there will be death panels.  They've already admitted it.
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« Reply #282 on: May 15, 2012, 06:45:34 PM »

If we bought our drugs within a free market -- just like we buy our groceries -- it would be much cheaper.  There's no need to over think this.

How about just think about it period since what you've suggested has absolutely no bearing on reality and it's frustrating since we've already discussed it so I'll just have to repaste what I wrote here:

The US health care system is the most expensive in the industrialized world – about twice the per capita cost of most industrialized countries - and it is the one that most closely follows a so-called free-market capitalist model. The studies have shown, in fact, that it is precisely because the health care system is run on this capitalist model that it is so expensive to the American public. In fact, if you look at the socialized aspect of the US health care system, you find that the administrative costs there are a fraction of the cost of privatized health. So in that case publicly subsidized health care in the US have kept prices lower than privately controlled health care. This, incidentally, isn’t too surprising when you look at US economic history. So, for example, if you look at the economic boom of the 90s, what was referred to as one of the most successful economic periods in US history, you’ll find that the products most responsible for the boom were heavily subsidized by the public. And, really, since WWII, modern high-tech products have had an enormous amount of support by the state.

Now part and parcel to this is the question of why drug prices are so high in the States. Again, we can put this down to the capitalist model. In a capitalist system, the main impetus of a drug company is to make profits. This is why companies have been shown to spend an overwhelming majority of its research and development on copycat drugs to stay competitive in the market. Just doing a quick search, the most recent figures I could pull are from 2004 (though I assume not much has changed too drastically since then) when 27 billion of 41 billion dollars of drug company research spending went into the development of copycat drugs.  This de-mystifies two great prevailing free-market myths at once: one, that a free market system would reduce costs and two, that a free-market system spurs innovation.

Now until you can actually deal with the reality of the health care situation (i.e. why it is actually so expensive and why other systems are much less expensive) then you talk about how much we need to overthink things.

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Health care today will be even worse now that Bureaucratic Big Government will be taking over.  It's a mess turning into a horrific disaster.  Sarah Palin was right -- there will be death panels.  They've already admitted it.
[/color]

No one has "admitted it" because it's a phony fabricated scare tactic drummed up to protect the interest of the powerful elite, who are the only one who serve to gain from the current system in the United States, which is an international scandal. And besides, Palin was talking about Obama's health care proposal which was virtually identical to Romney's health care proposal. Both were pro-corproate, right-wing business-oriented health care plans and were absolutely nothing like the kind of real, genuine, socialized health care plans that every other industrialized country in the world has.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 06:50:21 PM by rockandroll » Logged
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« Reply #283 on: May 16, 2012, 04:52:38 AM »

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...until you can actually deal with the reality of the health care situation...
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...it's a phony fabricated scare tactic drummed up to protect the interest of the powerful elite...
The reality of the healthcare system is "death panels."  That's the course we're on.  Because someone will need to pass out the "healthcare bucks."  And there won't be enough to go around.

People need to be prepared to deal with that.  I realize it won't be you...but to others who read this - be warned.  The whole push to get us to socialized medicine was the scare tactic.  All the "America's the richest country...we shouldn't have uninsured" blah, blah, blah -- "people are dying on the street."  That garbage was the muscle to herd the people off the train and into the camps. 

You can rattle off all the Big Pharma/industrial complex, socialism slogans all day if you want.  Please do.  But it's so out of touch.  Wasted billions on drug research is nothing compared to a Big Government that tosses off billions on paper clips, toilet seats and solar panels.  Make that trillions.  Oh...and it's our money.
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« Reply #284 on: May 16, 2012, 07:07:16 AM »

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...until you can actually deal with the reality of the health care situation...
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...it's a phony fabricated scare tactic drummed up to protect the interest of the powerful elite...
The reality of the healthcare system is "death panels."  That's the course we're on.  Because someone will need to pass out the "healthcare bucks."  And there won't be enough to go around.

People need to be prepared to deal with that.  I realize it won't be you...but to others who read this - be warned.  The whole push to get us to socialized medicine was the scare tactic.  All the "America's the richest country...we shouldn't have uninsured" blah, blah, blah -- "people are dying on the street."  That garbage was the muscle to herd the people off the train and into the camps.  

You can rattle off all the Big Pharma/industrial complex, socialism slogans all day if you want.  Please do.  But it's so out of touch.  Wasted billions on drug research is nothing compared to a Big Government that tosses off billions on paper clips, toilet seats and solar panels.  Make that trillions.  Oh...and it's our money.


Then why is it that the United States, the only country in the industrialized world without socialized health care, has the most expensive health care out of all these industrialized countries? Why is it that the US has the highest health care expenditure than any other country? That is "our money" too. These are the facts - socialized health care systems are far less expensive to tax paying citizens, far less wasteful, and far more humane than the capitalist model that is used in the United States.

And again, since you completely ignored this point, the death panel nonsense was not aimed as a critique of socialized health care - it was a scare tactic used to undermine Obamacare which had absolutely nothing to do with socialized health care. It was virtually identical to the health care policy introduced by Mitt Romney: a business-oriented health care platform that was a huge gift to industry, and in fact was far to the right of the kind of health care policy that even Nixon was proposing in his administration, which is a real testament to how far into la-la land we have gone in the past 40 years.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 07:14:15 AM by rockandroll » Logged
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« Reply #285 on: May 16, 2012, 07:28:24 AM »

On Drugs:   Throwing people in cages for smoking or snorting or shooting a substance that you don't enjoy is morally disgusting.

On 'Health Care': Forcing me to pay for your health care, which isn't even healthy or caring, is morally disgusting.

If you are afraid that without government  there would be no way to deal with these things, think of this; Americans give almost 300 billion dollars a year to charities. Now imagine if the giant monster called the state wasn't sucking up 30-60% of your income to 'pay' for its horrible services, you and apparently a lot of others, would VOLUNTARY pay for the services they find useful, like with EVERYTHING else you/they do.

This stuff can be figured out, but believing that a violent organization that seeks only more power for itself (The State) is the solution is not logical.




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« Reply #286 on: May 16, 2012, 07:38:13 AM »

On 'Health Care': Forcing me to pay for your health care, which isn't even healthy or caring, is morally disgusting.

I didn't realize we lived under a dictatorship.

The statistics have shown for at least a decade that the majority of citizens desire some kind of public health care system. If we are serious about democratic values, then it's that direction that we should be heading in.

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If you are afraid that without government  there would be no way to deal with these things

Like I said, I am a libertarian socialist, so obviously I'm not afraid of that, since the end goal is a society without government, as government is traditionally understood. That being said, I know that it is much harder to achieve that kind of society when you shift all the power the public has to the corporate world. At that point, you chances of living in a truly free, liberated, democratic society are about as hopeless as they can be.

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This stuff can be figured out, but believing that a violent organization that seeks only more power for itself (The State) is the solution is not logical.

At least the state is a power centre that we have some control over. The option we have now is far more dangerous and grim - which is giving the power entirely to tyrannical corporations. This is why the contemporary US faux-libertarian movement is so dangerous, because it is precisely pushing for unfettered, unchecked tyrannical control by corporate power.
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« Reply #287 on: May 16, 2012, 08:01:48 AM »

On 'Health Care': Forcing me to pay for your health care, which isn't even healthy or caring, is morally disgusting.

I didn't realize we lived under a dictatorship.

The statistics have shown for at least a decade that the majority of citizens desire some kind of public health care system. If we are serious about democratic values, then it's that direction that we should be heading in.

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If you are afraid that without government  there would be no way to deal with these things

Like I said, I am a libertarian socialist, so obviously I'm not afraid of that, since the end goal is a society without government, as government is traditionally understood. That being said, I know that it is much harder to achieve that kind of society when you shift all the power the public has to the corporate world. At that point, you chances of living in a truly free, liberated, democratic society are about as hopeless as they can be.

Quote
This stuff can be figured out, but believing that a violent organization that seeks only more power for itself (The State) is the solution is not logical.

At least the state is a power centre that we have some control over. The option we have now is far more dangerous and grim - which is giving the power entirely to tyrannical corporations. This is why the contemporary US faux-libertarian movement is so dangerous, because it is precisely pushing for unfettered, unchecked tyrannical control by corporate power.
I do not believe in Mob Rule, I'm sorry, democratic values, but I do believe in the individual and his/her right to do as he sees fit, so long as it hurts no one else or their property. I don't even understand Anarcho-socialists...you want no rulers but will somehow force everyone to do what you want? Please explain.
Don't you understand that the only reason Huge Corporations exist is Because the state created a legal-fiction called a corporation that privatizes gains and socializes costs, the all-time worst set-up for a business model, if you are interested in people. Without the power of the State to back them, no one would do business with these corporations. They could not exist. They are simply an arm of the state.
Starbucks doesn't throw you in jail if you don't pay your taxes.
K-mart can't take your kids from you.
Who can... the state.
If you are afraid of people, as you seem to be R&R, the last thing you should want is an organization that has the 'legal right' to force you to do as it wishes or kill you. Bad people flock to that. They steal and call it taxes. They kill and call it war. Call it what it is; Evil, wrong, a blight upon the universe, but do not insult yourself by calling the state a solution.
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« Reply #288 on: May 16, 2012, 08:36:12 AM »

[I do not believe in Mob Rule, I'm sorry, democratic values, but I do believe in the individual and his/her right to do as he sees fit, so long as it hurts no one else or their property.

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't believe in a kind of society wherein individuals look out for each other, rather than just themselves then this belief "in the individual" is nothing but airy-fairy talk. After all, the few examples that we have seen of truly free market societies are typically terribly impoverished, malnurished, poorly educated, etc. In those cases, the individual is left as a shell of a person. It seems to me that if one truly cared about the individual, they would understand that the individual lives in a world and that world works in a particular way. Furthermore, "their property"? What counts as property? Does private ownership of a business count, and if so, doesn't that entirely deprive the rights of most individuals "to do as he sees fit"?


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I don't even understand Anarcho-socialists...you want no rulers but will somehow force everyone to do what you want? Please explain.

Who is "you"? And furthermore, this is patently false. In an anarchist society, no one forces anyone to do anything. Anarchist societies work by means of free association (unlike the forced association of capitalist societies) where individuals may produce and reproduce their own conditions of existence without constraints from social or political bodies. People can choose to participate in particular groups if they want to or not, but their survival is not contingent on the participation or lack of participation in these groups.

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Don't you understand that the only reason Huge Corporations exist is Because the state created a legal-fiction called a corporation that privatizes gains and socializes costs, the all-time worst set-up for a business model, if you are interested in people.

I have said words precisely to that effect here several times (check the Ronald Reagan thread) so this is something I am indeed aware of. Though the public subsidizing the cost of development has been in place long before the "Huge" corporation.

Have to rush away now, sorry. Will respond to other points later...
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« Reply #289 on: May 16, 2012, 12:01:38 PM »

My questions about legalized painkillers were driven home yet again this morning, where a story in the local news appeared about a pharmacist (a part-time pharmacist, just to be accurate) who is now charged with stealing approximately $65,000 worth of prescription painkillers which he got from various means working within his job duties. These included falsifying prescriptions, issuing prescriptions under various names that either did or did not exist then keeping the meds himself, forging doctor's prescriptions and ID's in order to get the drugs, and outright theft and false inventory counts of the supplies. The drugs most involved - big surprise - were a variety preferred by heroin addicts, among others not listed by name.

They have not caught up to him - the article was not specific, but they think he fled to Egypt, where it seems he was or is a citizen or might have family or other connections.

The pharmacy itself is a local store with a few branches, and not a familiar chain or franchise.

The question becomes what did he do with those drugs? In those quantities and value amounts, it could be suggested they eventually ended up on the black market, or were sold on the underground market for profit. Perhaps some were for personal use, again the article did not address that point.

The one issue to refer back to in this thread is that of regulation. These painkillers and their distribution from doctor to pharmacy to patient is a pretty tightly controlled process, at least in some areas around me. There are strict, standardized procedures which involve those medical professionals who prescribe these medicines having a license and an ID number, as well as a check-and-balance system to address any unusual requests or abnormal amounts of certain meds being prescribed more often than what would be normal. This ensures one major point, that at least in this area, doctors have to be certified, qualified, and licensed doctors or medical professionals in order to write a prescription for certain meds.

Certain states like Florida whose laws and standards for this process are less stringent and less specific are the areas which are currently calling the prescription painkiller issue "an epidemic", and one of the core issues is the "pill mill", which are often community health centers that are acting as a front for selling prescription narcotics and painkillers under the table, and which try to bypass the laws in place.

Check certain news outlets from several counties in Florida, and it truly is an epidemic where the black market and illegal sale and distribution of these legal painkillers are too often going to addicts not under a doctor's care and who are outside the system set up for treatment and care. In other words, recreational users and addicts not receiving treatment are the customers.

A system of socialized medicine combined with price controls and possible additional federal funding for this type of medication in order to "lower the price" should not be applied to recreational use and abuse of the medications, IMO. An addict who actively seeks treatment to kick the addiction and live a better life is and should be treated differently from those who are currently in areas of Florida and elsewhere gaming the system already in place to re-sell the pills for profit on the black market, or who are seeking the pleasure of a high - the Oxy chased with a beer crowd I had mentioned earlier. I don't back down from that description because it's happening every day.

And I don't think tax dollars should go to funding that kind of chosen abuse.

Nor do I think instituting a system of socialized medicine and price controls to reign in "Big Pharma" would address the issue, or "epidemic", of legal prescription painkiller abuse and re-sale.

Apart from a drug such a marijuana, which at this point I see not many reasons why it could/should not be legalized, heavily taxed, and sold within limits and standards of quality as a recreational substance, I fail to see the benefits of legalizing heroin, forms of cocaine which are non-medicinal, meth and its derivatives, or other obvious drugs and substances not mentioned.

Because the legal means of controlling and enforcing laws for what we already have and consider legal when prescribed by a medical professional are not working, and the issue is getting worse by the week in the US.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 12:02:36 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #290 on: May 16, 2012, 12:18:37 PM »

And one point I felt needs to be raised, regarding federal funding, price controls, etc.

We hear certain terms given to specific industries, most notably names like "Big Tobacco" and in this thread "Big Pharma".

This will sound funny but it is ultimately a serious issue which I feel should be addressed more than it has:

"Big College"

A current firebrand of an issue is student loan debt: What should be done, how can we help, why are so many young Americans fighting enormous debt incurred during their college years...solutions range from lowering interest rates, to more government grants i.e. federal funding for higher education, to partial or even total forgiveness of such debt, which could be called "The Bailout Solution". It was one of the benchmark issues of the early days of the Occupy protests - what can we do about this debt?

If we point to "Big Pharma" as one of the reasons why there is a prescription painkiller epidemic in this country, suggesting lower prices for such drugs could be part of a multi-faceted solution, can we then point a finger at "Big College" and ask why the costs to students are so high?

"Big College" is a multi-billion dollar industry in and of itself. Some schools make tens of millions of dollars every year in athletics alone, none of which goes to the students under NCAA laws...but millions in profits from various clothing item, brand licensing deals, television and media rights, ticket sales and other events...it adds up to a very large sum for the school's coffers and for those connected to the school. Factor in alumni trust funds, donations, estate gifts, fundraising events, along with many other money-making deals in and around the campus and campus life.

Where does that affect the student who may have to spend upwards of 500 dollars on a textbook for one semester of one course or subject, a textbook which may be used a handful of times during actual classroom activities?

I know this because everyone who goes to college gets the same required book list and the same associated bills.

So if the problem is not being able to pay for school, can we start looking at "Big College" as a for-profit industry in some ways not far removed from "Big Pharma", and ask them to either reign in the costs to the students or institute some form of price-control so the average student's bill per semester does not outweigh what they may be expected to earn at a professional job for those first years out of college with a degree? Instead we are focused now on somehow lessening the burden on the students who were forced to borrow over their heads and beyond their means in order to attend the school - it seems like as much focus could be placed on the costs themselves before addressing how much debt a student is saddled with after several years of schooling.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 12:20:54 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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grillo
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« Reply #291 on: May 16, 2012, 08:40:25 PM »

[I do not believe in Mob Rule, I'm sorry, democratic values, but I do believe in the individual and his/her right to do as he sees fit, so long as it hurts no one else or their property.

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't believe in a kind of society wherein individuals look out for each other, rather than just themselves then this belief "in the individual" is nothing but airy-fairy talk. After all, the few examples that we have seen of truly free market societies are typically terribly impoverished, malnurished, poorly educated, etc. In those cases, the individual is left as a shell of a person. It seems to me that if one truly cared about the individual, they would understand that the individual lives in a world and that world works in a particular way. Furthermore, "their property"? What counts as property? Does private ownership of a business count, and if so, doesn't that entirely deprive the rights of most individuals "to do as he sees fit"?


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I don't even understand Anarcho-socialists...you want no rulers but will somehow force everyone to do what you want? Please explain.

Who is "you"? And furthermore, this is patently false. In an anarchist society, no one forces anyone to do anything. Anarchist societies work by means of free association (unlike the forced association of capitalist societies) where individuals may produce and reproduce their own conditions of existence without constraints from social or political bodies. People can choose to participate in particular groups if they want to or not, but their survival is not contingent on the participation or lack of participation in these groups.

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Don't you understand that the only reason Huge Corporations exist is Because the state created a legal-fiction called a corporation that privatizes gains and socializes costs, the all-time worst set-up for a business model, if you are interested in people.

I have said words precisely to that effect here several times (check the Ronald Reagan thread) so this is something I am indeed aware of. Though the public subsidizing the cost of development has been in place long before the "Huge" corporation.

Have to rush away now, sorry. Will respond to other points later...
Looking out for one another and using force to make me look out for you are two entirely different things. I do not understand your appeal to the majority...just because 50% + 1 agree on something or desire something, doesn't make it legitimate to force others to go along. My entire point is that people ARE giving, and do many good deeds for the poor or less lucky, or whatever, without the state forcing them to...why would this stop? How does a monopoly on power and violence lead to healthy interactions?
    I understand anarchism means no rulers...but under your definition (as I understand what you are saying) I would still be responsible for someone who doesn't want to, or cannot, work. Naturally that is absurd. I can choose to help him if I like, but how, without rulers, would I be compelled to help him? As for property, I'm sure we can agree that I own me and by extension my deeds and that which I create using whatever scarce resources I have available to me ("The basis for this extension of self-ownership to one's property is John Locke's argument  that mixing of labor with an unowned resource makes that resource part of one's self"). I guess we agree that the state is the source of most of the violence of the last 10,000 years
(nearly half a billion deaths during the last 100 years alone can be attributed to the state) but I don't understand the philosophy you follow.
  To be clear, my entire premise is based on my adherence to the Non-Aggression Principle or Axiom. No force or coercion is legitimate between any individuals, no matter what suit they wear or what their job title is. Defense is the only time violence could be justified. Other than that I think folks should live however the hell they want, just don't hit me or take my stuff.
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« Reply #292 on: May 17, 2012, 03:08:58 PM »

Anyway, as predicted, the Bruce thing has blown over. End of this titled thread.
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« Reply #293 on: May 17, 2012, 04:06:28 PM »

Anyway, as predicted, the Bruce thing has blown over. End of this titled thread.
agreed,,let's shut this down... Grin
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