Manson/Dennis Story

[EthanJClarke93]

you know for years i've been wondering the true story behind Dennis And Manson, i've seen the An American Family and Cease to Exist doc which i herd both were somewhat inaccurate, Some said the Carl met Charles and was scared of him and The Family went to Brian's house once and stole his stuff (both were scene In American Family), And also i herd Dennis beated the crap out of Manson in front of the family and the list goes on and on, What's the real truth, like a timeline of the Manson/Wilson story??

[sheknowsmetoowell]

BUMP

[I. Spaceman]

Maybe an English translation of the original post would help.

[endofposts]

I always found it interesting that Manson is heavily featured in bios of Dennis Wilson and the Beach Boys, yet Dennis barely rates a page in Vincent Bugliosi's book on Manson.  I don't think he meant much to Manson, which was a good thing, because Manson never harmed him. 

[Fun Is In]

If Dennis had testified at the trial, he might have had a bigger part in the book.
On the other hand, he had no known role in the crimes with which the defendents were charged or knowledge of the crimes and there probably was little reason for him to testify.

Since the "family" lived with/sponged off of him for a while he probably could have testifed about family dynamics and Manson's philosophies.  If he'd had important unique knowledge he would have been subpoenaed to appear.

[runnersdialzero]

i herd Dennis beated the crap out of Manson

^_^

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Wasn't it VDP who told the story of Dennis beating the crao out of Manson when he threatened his step-son?

He said Manson was on the ground in a fetal position begging Dennis to stop.

[rogerlancelot]

Wasn't it VDP who told the story of Dennis beating the crao out of Manson when he threatened his step-son?

He said Manson was on the ground in a fetal position begging Dennis to stop.

That's in Keith Badman's book (dubious) which also quotes that VDP wasn't there but heard about it (dubious). I wish I knew more for sure because I know there was more of a connection between Manson and the Beach Boys than we will ever know about (possible) but I have been so f***ed up on this new "street" drug I've been buying called Placebo (fictitious) that I think I might slip into a coma.

[stack-o-tracks]

I don't think he meant much to Manson, which was a good thing, because Manson never harmed him. 

He never physically harmed him, no. I'm sure Dennis had mental scars from that whole ordeal.

[Wild-Honey]

I don't think he meant much to Manson, which was a good thing, because Manson never harmed him. 

He never physically harmed him, no. I'm sure Dennis had mental scars from that whole ordeal.

I agree.

 Ethan, The Gaines book Heroes and Villains goes into a bit, have you read it?
 I personally don't like hearing about it or reading about it. It's too disturbing for me.  I know enough to know I don't want to know anymore.

[guitarfool2002]

I'm curious to know what parts of the documentary Cease To Exist would be considered inaccurate. There is so much material freely available to read about these cases in books, online, documentaries, interviews, etc. and I'm always curious to hear more opinions.

The roles of some LA musicians do get downplayed in telling the Manson story through the years, for reasons obvious and not so obvious. In some cases, those who were involved in some way - not in the crimes but just involved with the Manson clan - do not want anything to do with revisiting that scene. In one case, a prominent musician was involved and got pretty messed up and freaked out by the whole thing, and it started when he innocently accepted a recommendation from Terry Melcher to go to Manson's place and work on music. By prominent I mean a name that wouldn't be household but that musicians and people who know the case and LA musicians would recognize. He may have been mentioned in Bugliosi's book, I can't remember.

One comment that stuck out in this thread was the one about Dennis not meaning much to Manson - I think quite the opposite is true, because Dennis was one of Manson's gateways to what he wanted, which was a music career. Dennis had the cache, Manson had the songs but no one in the business to introduce him to the inner circles which could get him some kind of a music deal. Dennis and Terry actually gave him a chance to record his songs, that was a valuable commodity to Manson. If anything, Manson was a user and manipulator of other people to get what he wanted, and if anything, Dennis, Terry, and anyone else involved in the real business of music would mean more than anyone Manson had on the ranch, and surely more than any of the girls following him. Or Bobby, or Tex, or anyone else following him: Manson didn't have friends in the same way most folks would have. If you don't trust anyone, you can't form a real friendship.

[endofposts]

I don't think Manson's music career gave him anywhere near the thrill that commanding a bunch of people to murder on his behalf, not to mention becoming an international legend for doing that.  That's what Charles Manson was all about.  So, in that sense, Dennis was not that important to him.  He would have killed whether he met Dennis or not, and even getting a recording contract or having the Beach Boys record one of his songs wasn't as important to him.  He's a wacko, pure and simple.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The surface of the true story of Manson, the BB and the LA music/movie scene hasn't even been scratched.

[MBE]

The surface of the true story of Manson, the BB and the LA music/movie scene hasn't even been scratched.

It is really hard to get people to talk about him who were around. There's still some sort of fear as well as the natural reaction of not wanting to remember such a horrid man. Let's just say they all knew him but as Dennis brought him around he suffered the worst for it. Dennis never really recovered mentally from the trauma and certainly it lost him a lot respect in the band. Had this not happened Dennis would have been given far more attention and respect by the others. He may have never developed the drug or drinking problems that came in the coming years. I would go so far as to say that Dennis may be here today had he not met Manson. I think he needlessly felt guilty and punished himself.  I'm speculating a lot here with all these "What If" scenarios, but Dennis' decline can be traced to this.

[zaval80]

In one case, a prominent musician was involved and got pretty messed up and freaked out by the whole thing, and it started when he innocently accepted a recommendation from Terry Melcher to go to Manson's place and work on music. By prominent I mean a name that wouldn't be household but that musicians and people who know the case and LA musicians would recognize. He may have been mentioned in Bugliosi's book, I can't remember.

Michael Deasy - you remember right, he is mentioned. Apparently, he had a bum trip on Charlie's acid.

[?]

The surface of the true story of Manson, the BB and the LA music/movie scene hasn't even been scratched.

I wish someone would start scratching it...  Do you think this stuff will continue to be suppressed or possibly come out down the road?

[D409]

One of the articles in Kingsley Abbott's collection "Back To The Beach", "Requiem For The Beach Boy" by David Leaf mentions Dennis telling him late at night "a little about his time with Charles Manson, and the fear he still lived with."

[GuyOnTheBeach]

It's of my belief that had Dennis of testified in the Manson case, he wouldn't of died in 1983, someone would have gotten to him much sooner. Manson had a lot of followers, even when the main offenders had been arrested, chances are that there were others still out there during the Manson trial and with someone as high profile as Dennis there is only so much privacy that could have been given to the whole thing. I think Dennis was aware of this, which is also why he never mentioned the whole series of events much afterwards.

Re the Manson story and LA musicians, I think there is a lot that we are never going to hear, most of this stuff probably wouldn't get out during the lifetime of these Musicians, and they are the only people aside from Manson who know exactly what happened, it's a vicious cycle, however a totally understandable one.

[endofposts]

I don't think Dennis was entirely to blame for "bringing him around."  Manson was interested in the music industry and would have tried to hang out there on the fringes with or without Dennis.  Neil Young remembered seeing Manson in clubs and the fact that some people thought he was cool, not just Dennis. I also think it's a stretch to blame Dennis' downfall on his association with Manson or guilt associated with it.  He was an alcoholic and a drug addict.  Brian never got involved with Manson and he had the same problems.  It was heredity and environment.

I don't like the idea of all the publicity and glorification that Manson has gotten.  Other people may feel the same way and that may be why no one wants to touch the story.  It just encourages future Mansons.  One was enough.  He has never had any socially redeeming values so the less attention the better.

[Wild-Honey]

I don't like the idea of all the publicity and glorification that Manson has gotten.  Other people may feel the same way and that may be why no one wants to touch the story.  It just encourages future Mansons.  One was enough.  He has never had any socially redeeming values so the less attention the better.

Uh huh.  That's exactly how I feel.

[I. Spaceman]

I don't think Dennis was entirely to blame for "bringing him around."  Manson was interested in the music industry and would have tried to hang out there on the fringes with or without Dennis.  Neil Young remembered seeing Manson in clubs and the fact that some people thought he was cool, not just Dennis. I also think it's a stretch to blame Dennis' downfall on his association with Manson or guilt associated with it.  He was an alcoholic and a drug addict.  Brian never got involved with Manson and he had the same problems.  It was heredity and environment.

I don't like the idea of all the publicity and glorification that Manson has gotten.  Other people may feel the same way and that may be why no one wants to touch the story.  It just encourages future Mansons.  One was enough.  He has never had any socially redeeming values so the less attention the better.

Neil Young tried to get him signed to Warners. If folks such as Neil Young, Dennis Wilson and Terry Melcher felt Manson had musical talent, it is pretty likely that he did. That is an important part of the equation.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't think Dennis was entirely to blame for "bringing him around."  Manson was interested in the music industry and would have tried to hang out there on the fringes with or without Dennis.  Neil Young remembered seeing Manson in clubs and the fact that some people thought he was cool, not just Dennis. I also think it's a stretch to blame Dennis' downfall on his association with Manson or guilt associated with it.  He was an alcoholic and a drug addict.  Brian never got involved with Manson and he had the same problems.  It was heredity and environment.

I'll say again I think Manson's interest in the music industry went beyond an interest and was more of a passion. But the man is a walking contradiction: One time he'll say the music industry was following *him*, and then other times he'll launch into a diatribe about being ripped off by music business folks including Dennis and Terry Melcher, and others including Neil Young go as far as to pin some of the blame for all that happened on Charlie Manson's anger about not getting what he thought he was due for his songs and music and feeling ripped off from things like the "Never Learn Not To Love" situation. The key phrase is "some" of the blame.

Neil Young mentions a few specifics in his book about Manson, check it out for the exact quotes but to sum up Neil was introduced to Manson through Dennis Wilson. When Neil went to Dennis' house to hang out, Charlie and the girls would be there, playing guitars and hanging out, so they got to know each other.

Neil said he and Dennis were ignored by Manson's girls: All they did was focus on Charlie. That puts a different spin on some of the stories.

Neil also says he mentioned Charlie and his music to Mo Ostin at Warner Brothers, praising his ability to make up songs on the spot, ad libbing lyrics and poetry as someone in the documentary also described. Ostin or Warner Brothers never followed up.

Neil's book mentioned an interview with Manson where he praised Neil for giving him a motorcycle. Hmm.

So there is one rock star who was involved with Manson somewhat indirectly but still involved who also suggests that Manson's anger at feeling ripped off and robbed by the music industry may have been a trigger which obviously led to things far more serious than being mad at the music business.

[I. Spaceman]

The book you are speaking of is a book about Neil Young by Jimmy McDonough, not "Neil's book".

[endofposts]

I don't buy any of that.  Dennis Wilson was not to blame for anything Charles Manson did, and I don't think he should have or did feel that responsible for it.  If Manson's people were tooling around PCH they were obviously destined for LA/Hollywood, where Manson would have knocked on doors and tried to gain entry, somehow, to the music industry.  If he were that upset about Terry Melcher supposedly rejecting him, he undoubtedly would have found where Terry was living and murdered him, or perhaps murdered his famous mother.  He also knew where Dennis was, and while he allegedly had people go to his house and rearrange his furniture, he never harmed Dennis or his family.  The guy was insane.  He thought the Beatles commanded him to have a race war by writing the song 'Helter Skelter."  So he went out and slaughtered some random, well-off white people, or had a bunch of his followers do it for him.  Then, one of his followers was divinely inspired to try to kill Gerald Ford.  None of it makes sense, and it would have happened if Manson had met Dennis or not, or Neil Young, or the man on the moon.

[guitarfool2002]

Getting back to the original timeline question from the original post, it would be helpful because from the dates I can put together, the entire hurricane swept through from the time Charlie went from jail to Haight-Ashbury then to the LA area from spring 1967 to 1969, a relatively short time period of about two years.

Now consider this, for now leaving out some of the more scandalous rumors and stories that have floated around through the years about exactly what Manson was involved with:

This is a man who gets released from jail in early 1967 after spending about half of his life in jail for what would be called "crimes of stupidity", like car theft, pimping, passing bad or forged checks, all that stuff. The man was illiterate when he went to jail, not to suggest he wasn't intelligent but it's an important aspect to consider. When he was up for release, the story is that Manson did not want to leave, and was calling jail his home. He was a hustler, he was a con artist, he was an egomaniac, and he was persuasive.

But adding in some of the claims and stories which have not been discussed here, was he that capable of maintaining a cult of silence for decades while in prison? Was he that skilled in persuasion and manipulation that within two years after living a convict's life for most of his adult life, he was able to enter into the middle echelon of Hollywood's and the music business's more progressive living areas like Topanga Canyon and not only thrive on his own but develop relationships within those communities as someone who still depended on petty crimes for survival?

Or could it be a case of trying to scratch that surface even further by looking for the deeper connections of those involved with Manson and connected to Manson's dealings instead of relating everything to just the crimes and activities of Manson's followers? because several rumors and scandalous stories have some red flags that would suggest Charlie Manson did what he did and was prosecuted for it but may have also somehow tapped into some larger and more serious stuff...things that don't get discussed and that don't end happily.

And remember Bugliosi had to make a case that would guarantee a conviction, and persuade a jury just enough based on the strongest evidence he could enter in that courtroom. If he would have gotten deeper into more of Charlie's associations, the case would have spun out of control and I think he and the DA's office knew they had to paint a certain picture in order to convince those folks sitting on the jury. But the same rumors that various writers and conspiracy theorists may have seen decades later were surely being whispered at that time, too. Or maybe not - that's the thing with not getting straight answers.