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Author Topic: Can't Do Without BWPS  (Read 15011 times)
cablegeddon
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« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2012, 11:44:15 AM »

And those would be "Surf's Up" from the 1971 album of the same name, and "Cabinessence" from 20/20. I think those versions of those songs are much better, and especially I think Carl's vocal on the first part of "Surf's Up" works much better than fitting Brian's part into it. Plus it makes Brian's part on the second movement sound even more touching when it comes in. But that's just me.

Good point. Surf's up 71 would've been the perfect version if they did a more powerful rendition of "Brother John". I agree that 20/20 has the best version of Cabinessence.  

Yes, BWPS is an artists completed vision, just not Brian's. Maybe Darian's.

Nonsense. Darian was what he has always said he was -- an assistant. The ultimate decisions on the material included, and on the sequencing, were Brian and Van Dyke's. People have talked to Darian and other members of Brian's band about this, and the general response to calling it "Darian's work" is that if Darian had actually sequenced BWPS, it would have been far different (and more peculiar!) than what we got.

It's been awhile since I watched Beautiful dreamer but my impression was that Darian put everything together and Brian reluctantly came in and oked everything with some minor tweaks.
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« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2012, 11:49:48 AM »

And those would be "Surf's Up" from the 1971 album of the same name, and "Cabinessence" from 20/20. I think those versions of those songs are much better, and especially I think Carl's vocal on the first part of "Surf's Up" works much better than fitting Brian's part into it. Plus it makes Brian's part on the second movement sound even more touching when it comes in. But that's just me.

Good point. Surf's up 71 would've been the perfect version if they did a more powerful rendition of "Brother John". I agree that 20/20 has the best version of Cabinessence.  

Yes, BWPS is an artists completed vision, just not Brian's. Maybe Darian's.

Nonsense. Darian was what he has always said he was -- an assistant. The ultimate decisions on the material included, and on the sequencing, were Brian and Van Dyke's. People have talked to Darian and other members of Brian's band about this, and the general response to calling it "Darian's work" is that if Darian had actually sequenced BWPS, it would have been far different (and more peculiar!) than what we got.

It's been awhile since I watched Beautiful dreamer but my impression was that Darian put everything together and Brian reluctantly came in and oked everything with some minor tweaks.

It must have been quite awhile since you saw Beautiful Dreamer as your impression is utterly wrong.
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Wirestone
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« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2012, 12:12:03 PM »

Yes, BWPS is an artists completed vision, just not Brian's. Maybe Darian's.

Nonsense. Darian was what he has always said he was -- an assistant. The ultimate decisions on the material included, and on the sequencing, were Brian and Van Dyke's. People have talked to Darian and other members of Brian's band about this, and the general response to calling it "Darian's work" is that if Darian had actually sequenced BWPS, it would have been far different (and more peculiar!) than what we got.

I said MAYBE Darian. My point was Brian sure as heck was not the one that got the Smile 2004 version going or finished.

Wrong and wrong. Without Brian agreeing to do the project, it would have never gotten going in the first place. His assent to doing it set everything in motion. Secondly, if he had not been involved with calling back Van Dyke (which he did on his own, without the involvement of Darian, Melinda, et al), there wouldn't have been a finished piece. And if he hadn't gone through with performing the thing, it wouldn't have been counted as finished either.

The other thing about BWPS that changed for me after TSS release is the undeniable fact that it just would not have been the same record in '66 as '04. A lot of Smile "experts", many of you folks, had been saying such all along. It just never really hit me until I played BWPS yesterday and I'm now hung up on the fact that it was way too long with way too much material to have fit into the intended 30 some minutes in '66.

BWPS is not, and could never be, a 1960s-vintage Smile. But so what? Historical accuracy isn't what makes BWPS so good. It's the active participation of the 2003 BW, VDP, and the BW band.

-----

All that being said, the 1966 sessions are special. They deserve their own release and acclaim. And I was an outspoken critic of presenting the material on the first disc of TSS the way it was. It's a little dishonest. It deprives both the 66 material of its own legitimacy and the 03 reconstruction of its separate creative goals and accomplishments.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 12:16:38 PM by Wirestone » Logged
absinthe_boy
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« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2012, 01:38:35 PM »

Remember, dear readers, that there is a difference between the European pressing and the American pressing of BWPS on vinyl.

Unusually, the European pressing is inferior. For the full-on BWPS experience you need the American pressing.


What is so inferior about it? Assuming I have the European version, it sounds fantastic - what's wrong with it?

Everything.

To start off with the cover is made of thinner card and the embossed parts are only half as raised as on the American one. The cover looks, feels and probably *is* cheaper.

Although I am assured by no less than Mark Linett that the master used is the same, the matrix numbers are different so the actual stampers are different. So what I hypothesise happened is that the same analogue tape master was used but perhaps the European one was pushed through a digital system before the vinyl laccquer was cut. Mark Linett is sceptical but the fact is the matrix numbers are different and they sound different.

There is definitely more surface noise on the European LP than than the American one though they do weigh the same. The reproduction of the high frequencies is noticeably inferior on the European record.

To my ears, the European pressing is marginally better than the CD, and with the high frequency problems its really not much better. The US pressing on the other hand is a sonic marvel, rarely bettered. It is right up there with the best that Telarc ever produced, or TM-L and Masterdisk. Its one of those records that you put on and regardless of whether your audience likes the music....their jaws drop.

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« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2012, 01:54:05 PM »

Remember, dear readers, that there is a difference between the European pressing and the American pressing of BWPS on vinyl.

Unusually, the European pressing is inferior. For the full-on BWPS experience you need the American pressing.


What is so inferior about it? Assuming I have the European version, it sounds fantastic - what's wrong with it?

Everything.

To start off with the cover is made of thinner card and the embossed parts are only half as raised as on the American one. The cover looks, feels and probably *is* cheaper.

Although I am assured by no less than Mark Linett that the master used is the same, the matrix numbers are different so the actual stampers are different. So what I hypothesise happened is that the same analogue tape master was used but perhaps the European one was pushed through a digital system before the vinyl laccquer was cut. Mark Linett is sceptical but the fact is the matrix numbers are different and they sound different.

There is definitely more surface noise on the European LP than than the American one though they do weigh the same. The reproduction of the high frequencies is noticeably inferior on the European record.

To my ears, the European pressing is marginally better than the CD, and with the high frequency problems its really not much better. The US pressing on the other hand is a sonic marvel, rarely bettered. It is right up there with the best that Telarc ever produced, or TM-L and Masterdisk. Its one of those records that you put on and regardless of whether your audience likes the music....their jaws drop.



Anyone in england got one to spare?  LOL
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« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2012, 06:50:44 PM »

Re-listened to BWPS after having  been absorbed in TSS for a few months...and damn, I'm still mightily impressed by BWPS! All in all, it's a more cohesive work altogether.

I don't much get into the "it's not the same as what would've been in '67" thing--that all just gets too time-travelly and ultimately too conservative of an approach for me.

BWPS is what happened in the real world, in this timeline. And I daresay that many of the new lyrics make it even more relevant to today than they could have back then (I'm thinking about the lyrics to 'Song for Children', specifically, as it relates to Brian's fatherhood). Also--I can hear a lot of little details in BWPS (like that beloved clarinet) that practically get lost in the mix of the old tapes.

They're both fantastic. But BWPS is the only one that's complete.

And if there happens to be a needledrop of BWPS US vinyl, Please Make me aware of where I might find such a thing...
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« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2012, 07:24:36 PM »

Brian's version is worth it, because it facilitated the release of the Beach Boys' recordings. But I have no need of ever listening to it again.
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« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2012, 10:37:30 PM »


And that's actually me at 0:40 "I'm from Germany"...

BWPS is not, and could never be, a 1960s-vintage Smile. But so what?

I agree, especially with "so what". Though I think the 60s backing tracks are far superior, the composition as a whole of BWPS is way better than what we would have gotten had SMiLE been released in 1967. A 1967 SMiLE would have probably no segues and many tracks missing.

I'm glad someone praises BWPS on this board. I only disagree with the Don about Brian's singing, as I think it's not very good on the record, especially if you play TLOS before it.

Last year I played the live DVD over my stereo speakers, and it was just so great, much greater than the studio CD. Or my (sadly European) vinyl.

How can you tell quickly if it is a European or US pressing? Does it say "Manufactured in the US" on the back cover? Man, I'd really like to listen to that, as the TSS vinyl really is superior to the CD.
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« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2012, 10:43:30 PM »

I hate to say this, but I can't get into BWPS since the TSS came out. I respect BWPS as huge achievement in getting smile songs finished and released, but the original sessions have a vibe that BWPS doesn't. The BBs with the wrecking crew on smile cannot be beat in my opinion. I also feel like some of the BWPS songs drag Brian's changed voice along.
I think Brian's voice is the biggest obstacle to me enjoying BWPS as much as TSS. Cabinessence and Surf's Up were so much better with Brian's original vocals...and Carl's, for that matter. Brian's group did an incredible job of replicating the sound of those songs, though, no fault to be found there. And it is nice to hear it all in a completed form. I'm glad we have both, but if I could only have one, it would be TSS.
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absinthe_boy
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« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2012, 03:01:06 AM »

BWPS isn't what SMiLE would have been in 1967. Neither is TSS. The SMiLE that might have been in 1967 does not and never can exist.


BWPS is, however, Brian and Van Dyke returning to complete what they stopped in 1966/67.

If a painter started a work, left a gap of 30/40 years and then completed it....it would not be the same had the painter completed the work without the gap. But that makes it no less valid.

So what?

BWPS is what it is.....the two creative forces behind SMiLE completing it.

The only thing I might like would be a reconstructed SMiLE taking what was recorded in TSS and adding new vocals/instruments where necessary. That would crucially be in addition to TSS which has its own immovable place in the SMiLE jigsaw.


As for spare US pressings of BWPS.....I bought two at the time, and one is staying unopened until the one I play becomes worn out.
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The Heartical Don
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« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2012, 03:14:43 AM »

BWPS isn't what SMiLE would have been in 1967. Neither is TSS. The SMiLE that might have been in 1967 does not and never can exist.


BWPS is, however, Brian and Van Dyke returning to complete what they stopped in 1966/67.

If a painter started a work, left a gap of 30/40 years and then completed it....it would not be the same had the painter completed the work without the gap. But that makes it no less valid.

So what?

BWPS is what it is.....the two creative forces behind SMiLE completing it.

The only thing I might like would be a reconstructed SMiLE taking what was recorded in TSS and adding new vocals/instruments where necessary. That would crucially be in addition to TSS which has its own immovable place in the SMiLE jigsaw.


As for spare US pressings of BWPS.....I bought two at the time, and one is staying unopened until the one I play becomes worn out.



(sigh of relief) I was afraid you'd write: 'until the end of times'. Now I can diagnose you as being only partly an OCD patient.
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Micha
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« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2012, 08:48:22 AM »

BWPS is, however, Brian and Van Dyke returning to complete what they stopped in 1966/67.

If a painter started a work, left a gap of 30/40 years and then completed it....it would not be the same had the painter completed the work without the gap. But that makes it no less valid.

Absolutely valid point.

The only thing I might like would be a reconstructed SMiLE taking what was recorded in TSS and adding new vocals/instruments where necessary.

Me too. (Well, it's not the only thing I would like, but one thing I'd like to have... Wink 2)
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« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2012, 11:11:07 AM »

Brian's version is worth it, because it facilitated the release of the Beach Boys' recordings. But I have no need of ever listening to it again.

Agreed. If it took BWPS's release to get TSS, then it's worth it to me. But honestly, the only times I usually put on BWPS is to check out a difference between the original sessions and the '04 version. I just don't really have any interest in hearing the "new" versions.
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« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2012, 11:41:13 AM »

My favourite version of SMiLE is my own second night recording on minidisc.

SMiLE is incomplete without a ten minute standing ovation after it. I listen to the very last clap.
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« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2012, 01:09:47 PM »

I guess I'm not the only one wanting to hear the BWPS backing tracks for all the songs? Wink
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« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2012, 01:20:11 PM »

Brian's version is worth it, because it facilitated the release of the Beach Boys' recordings. But I have no need of ever listening to it again.

Agreed. If it took BWPS's release to get TSS, then it's worth it to me. But honestly, the only times I usually put on BWPS is to check out a difference between the original sessions and the '04 version. I just don't really have any interest in hearing the "new" versions.

I'm with you guys. I value and appreciate BWPS, but I almost never listen to it anymore. Now that we have the box, the spins I do give it will be fewer and further between.
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Biggus Dikkus
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« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2012, 01:48:03 PM »

While I vastly enjoy BWPS, I think that TSS just sounds better. The bass and muddier sound that accompanies TSS makes the album sound much more full and warm. This is particularly noticeable during the Bicycle Rider Chorus and "Iron horse" section.
 
I still love In Blue Hawaii and Song For Children, though.
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« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2012, 05:41:38 PM »

Brian's version is worth it, because it facilitated the release of the Beach Boys' recordings. But I have no need of ever listening to it again.

Agreed. If it took BWPS's release to get TSS, then it's worth it to me. But honestly, the only times I usually put on BWPS is to check out a difference between the original sessions and the '04 version. I just don't really have any interest in hearing the "new" versions.

I'm with you guys. I value and appreciate BWPS, but I almost never listen to it anymore. Now that we have the box, the spins I do give it will be fewer and further between.

That's pretty much my feeling on it at this point.  I do enjoy the newly completed tracks in most cases, but listening to songs like "Wonderful" or "Surf's Up" just makes me want to go back to TSS and listen to the real things.
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« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2012, 06:08:41 PM »

Every time you spell Smile as SMiLE, an angel's wings are forcibly torn off its body.
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« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2012, 07:13:39 PM »

Every time you spell Smile as SMiLE, an angel's wings are forcibly torn off its body.

Ha. I know it bugs you runners, but even on the boxset it is spelled that way. And it just seems right that way. But I can definitely see why its annoying.
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« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2012, 07:16:30 PM »

Every time you spell Smile as SMiLE, an angel's wings are forcibly torn off its body.
And did the angel cry with the one you just had forcibly torn off?
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« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2012, 07:31:23 PM »

Every time you spell Smile as SMiLE, an angel's wings are forcibly torn off its body.

Ha. I know it bugs you runners, but even on the boxset it is spelled that way. And it just seems right that way. But I can definitely see why its annoying.

Mayn. The box set spelling is a product of 2011 and years of people outside the band spelling it that way. It's like how LMAO is commonly used, means something, but is still annoying as all hell.

I don't even think the 2004 Brian version was referred to SMiLE officially. Back when it was being worked on, any literature on the matter simply calls it Smile, and it stayed that way for years and years. Don't know about "right". imo. Totally the result of fans spelling it that way online recently.

Also, every time I see it spelled that way, I hear it like this in my head: http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/20/800088/THHHMIIIYULLUH.mp3

Can you imagine? Such a hellish existence? You don't want to.
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« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2012, 01:07:21 AM »

SMiLE
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« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2012, 01:37:14 AM »

My favourite version of SMiLE is my own second night recording on minidisc.

SMiLE is incomplete without a ten minute standing ovation after it. I listen to the very last clap.

My favs are the first, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth nights captured the same way.
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Iron Horse-Apples
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« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2012, 02:04:09 AM »

My favourite version of SMiLE is my own second night recording on minidisc.

SMiLE is incomplete without a ten minute standing ovation after it. I listen to the very last clap.

My favs are the first, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth nights captured the same way.

The live versions were something else, eh?
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