Heroes or Villains?

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Now that a lot of people seem to be re-evaluating their opinions on Mike (though not me i might add), I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on some of the other opinion-dividing individuals from BB history. Namely:

Murray Wilson

Jack Rieley

Eugene Landy

Do the negatives outweigh the positives or vice versa? I've got very concrete opinions on the latter two (Rieley - definately a hero, Landy - villain). Murray however, though undoubtedly something of a tyrant, I'm less sure of... Funny how as soon as he died the BB's creative juices by and large evaporated. Was his presence a spur for Brian, Dennis and Carl's creativity? (POB of course slightly dispproves this particular theory...)

Anyway, heroes or villains....?
 

[drbeachboy]

Murry - Hero. He fathered the 3 Wilson brothers.

Jack - Hero. Came into their fold just at the time when they needed someone out there to give the band and their new music a postive spin.

Landy - Hero. First time around, he saved Brian's life. Villain second time around. Without the results from the first time, the second time would be meaningless and would have never happened.

[Aegir]

Landy is scum. they've could've gotten another doctor.

[drbeachboy]

Landy is scum. they've could've gotten another doctor.

But they didn't.

[SMiLE Brian]

Landy tried to kill Brian the 2nd time around.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Not only that, but his lyrics are TERRIBLE!!

[drbeachboy]

Not only that, but his lyrics are TERRIBLE!!

Can't disasgree with you there.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Did Landy write the Everybody Wants To Live lyrics? I can't stand 'em. 'The cigarette but when you throw it in the water... If you start laughing you're just a coward...' Horrid, horrid, horrid. Rieley's lyric's have their detractors but personally I think he's up there with Van Dyke and Asher.

[Aegir]

Brian definitely wrote those words.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Murry - Hero. He fathered the 3 Wilson brothers.

... and then proceeded to screw them up for life.

Jack - Hero. Came into their fold just at the time when they needed someone out there to give the band and their new music a postive spin.

... and lied his balls off to get into that position.

Landy - Hero. First time around, he saved Brian's life. Villain second time around. Without the results from the first time, the second time would be meaningless and would have never happened.

First time round he got Brian out of bed, second time he saved his life... and then proceeded to f*** it up far more than anyone or anything had previously. The vast majority of the damage to Brian is down to Landy. he nearly killed him.

[Craig Boyd]

It's a complex thing and all of them are complex people so it's hard to just say Hero or Villain although some of the things people like Landy and Murry done are unforgivable.

[drbeachboy]

Murry - Hero. He fathered the 3 Wilson brothers.

... and then proceeded to screw them up for life.

Jack - Hero. Came into their fold just at the time when they needed someone out there to give the band and their new music a postive spin.

... and lied his balls off to get into that position.

Landy - Hero. First time around, he saved Brian's life. Villain second time around. Without the results from the first time, the second time would be meaningless and would have never happened.

First time round he got Brian out of bed, second time he saved his life... and then proceeded to f*ck it up far more than anyone or anything had previously. The vast majority of the damage to Brian is down to Landy. he nearly killed him.

Murry, say what you will, but those boys needed to be alive first before anything that came after.
Jack, no matter how he got there, he got the job done.
Landy, can't argue with you much there. You know more about the story than I ever will.

[hypehat]

Yeah, Landy and Murry are pretty much indefensible.

 In terms of Murry, the only thing we have to thank him for is not being so much of a bellend that he let Brian be around music and start The Beach Boys. Apart from that, he was abusive and petty and emotionally damaged his children. I don't think 'he had a gleam in his eye thrice' is really a solid defence.

In terms of Landy, AGD is right. He would have turned Brian into a vegetable. To quote Mark Twain, I would never wish anyone dead, but there are some obituaries that I have read with great pleasure. He is the biggest 'villain' in The Beach Boys' story, imo.

Reilly, on the other hand, doesn't belong in this company. He inspired and pushed The Beach Boys to their productive early 70's albums, and notably wrote Carl's finest songs with him. Dude is a hero, give or take a small fib  

[drbeachboy]

hypehat, you think Murry is that terrible? As bad as he was, his kids still loved him and his death had a pretty significant impact on them. Murry is a guy you can place in both rolls.

[anazgnos]

Murry was truly one of the great sperm donors of our age.

[hypehat]

Doc - 'His death had a significant impact' - it sent Brian, Dennis, and Carl on a self-destructive cycle that killed one, led to Brian being what he is today, and Carl was lucky to escape from. Of course having your father die would have an impact on anybody, but the damage that Murry had done to his children in terms of their emotional security and self esteem made it that much worse. Yeah, they loved him (well, maybe Brian and Carl) but he did abuse them and f*ck them up for life.

Which I don't mean to say 'How dare Murry die!', rather that his death was a turning point for his children that didn't end so well. I'm a little incoherent today, so I apologise if I'm not clear.

[drbeachboy]

Doc - 'His death had a significant impact' - it sent Brian, Dennis, and Carl on a self-destructive cycle that killed one, led to Brian being what he is today, and Carl was lucky to escape from. Of course having your father die would have an impact on anybody, but the damage that Murry had done to his children in terms of their emotional security and self esteem made it that much worse. Yeah, they loved him (well, maybe Brian and Carl) but he did abuse them and f*ck them up for life.

Which I don't mean to say 'How dare Murry die!', rather that his death was a turning point for his children that didn't end so well. I'm a little incoherent today, so I apologise if I'm not clear.

I understand where you are coming from. My father was similar to Murry (not as bad), so I am aware of the impact it has on one's self esteem, etc. No matter how you slice it, he is still a hero. Those 3 boys had to be born just as they were to become who they are/were. And, I'm only looking at this as posed by the OP; from a Beach Boys / Fans perspective.

[hypehat]

Yeah, I do see where you're coming from too - after all, he kept the music in their house for them and was their father for better or worse, and without that we wouldn't be arguing about him. 

[Autotune]

Murry- not only fathered them, but was crucial in getting the band started and promoting them in the early years.

Jack- I don't know much about the episodes that led him into BB management.

Landy- it's a shame that he seemed to be the only solution at the time. They could have gotten someone else but, alas, they did not.

When, after the release of the WIBN book Brian was asked who would be heroes and villains in his life, he said:

Hero- Mike
Villain- Spector

[Ron]

I don't know about Jack, Landy was obviously a Villian, drugging and defrauding a mentally ill man is pretty villianous behaviour.

Murry was a Hero.  He did a lot of bad things but in the end he was Brian's father.  Even the totality of Murry's abusive behavior wasn't enough to erase the goodwill/inspiration/love that simply being a father to Brian provided.... even if it was only by default.   

[Wirestone]

I don't know about Jack, Landy was obviously a Villian, drugging and defrauding a mentally ill man is pretty villianous behaviour.

Murry was a Hero.  He did a lot of bad things but in the end he was Brian's father.  Even the totality of Murry's abusive behavior wasn't enough to erase the goodwill/inspiration/love that simply being a father to Brian provided.... even if it was only by default.    

Ron? Do you have kids?

No hero would abuse his children. Period.

I understand that he was crucial to the band's success. But helping create a band is bullshit compared to loving -- and actually showing your love -- to your kids. Beating them, abusing them, is never excusable.

[Ron]

I don't know about Jack, Landy was obviously a Villian, drugging and defrauding a mentally ill man is pretty villianous behaviour.

Murry was a Hero.  He did a lot of bad things but in the end he was Brian's father.  Even the totality of Murry's abusive behavior wasn't enough to erase the goodwill/inspiration/love that simply being a father to Brian provided.... even if it was only by default.   

Ron? Do you have kids?

No hero would abuse his children. Period.

Wirestone?  Do you have a father?

No father would be a Villian to me.  Period.

[Wirestone]

Yes. And I am one, as well. And child abuse is an evil, evil thing.

Are we actually debating this?

[Ron]

Wirestone, you're right.


Murry is evil.  I"m wrong.


He never did anything good, he's a Villian. 

[Wirestone]

I apologize for my criticism of a man who regularly physically and emotionally brutalized his sons and wife.