New album info (as it rolls out...)

[Ziggy Stardust]

I don't get it, the album has been released, but nothing on the web yet ?

[buddhahat]

The professor detects a battle between two armies:

On one side is: the cynical, "I know a lot about music I I find fault with this production for these various arcane reasons"
or "I know a lot about the inner circle and the historical circumstances that led to this disappointing album" (plus the various Myrmidons wielding varieties of these doctrines).

On the other side is" the new BB album."

Guess who wins?

 

It doesn't have to be and shouldn't be that ^ way. There are no "sides", and it's not about winning and losing.

It's about people - individuals - having an opinion and taking advantage of a message board to express it. What causes the hard feelings are people not respecting opinions they don't agree with, and trying to prove an opinion as being wrong.

.. and sage words from the Sherrif! Good to see you back here again.

[Jim V.]

Quite frankly, it seems fairly obvious to me that Joe Thomas' sonic signature is all over these tracks.  This is not some cryptic 'feeling' I have; there is audible evidence.  I find it surprising that others do not notice it.

The music itself sounds as though he was more involved than Brian Wilson or the Beach Boys in my opinion.

DonnyL, I admire the degree to which you are determined to stick to your guns, maintaining your theory that in essence Joe Thomas is the organ grinder and Brian Wilson is the monkey.

But I would ask you to think about the following: This is the first Beach Boys album with all the band members involved for a very long time. It's a great shame that Carl and Dennis are not involved, but there it is. It may also be the last. This is very exciting and meaningful to a lot of long-term fans who may have been following BW & Co since their childhoods (like me). It is a cause for celebration that we will be getting Brian, Mike, Bruce and Al singing together, Brian involved to a meaningful degree in composition and arrangement, and an opportunity for those who want to to attend a Beach Boys concert. This is great news!

I don't see the point really in injecting cynicism and 'bad vibes' into a discussion that should be joyful and celebratory. The new album is what it is. I'd rather have an album with ageing, imperfect voices, with an old, tired, slightly befuddled Brian Wilson involved, than no beach Boys album at all. I consider it highly probable that many of the chord progressions, melodies and the majority of vocal arrangements are written by Brian Wilson. Surely that's a good thing!

I believe that, in your 'Brian is barely involved/Joe Thomas is too involved' comments, what you are standing up for is your right to be disappointed that the old Brian Wilson no longer exists, and that what remains cannot live up to our desire to be embraced by the beauty of his music in the way that we have been so often in the past. And I feel it too, but I will take comfort in the thought that something positive has happened in a life that has contained much tragedy (Brian's not mine...  ), and that Brian Wilson and his fans may take comfort in it too.  

Let's just enjoy what we have.

It seems you're assuming I'm not of these long-term fans.

I bought Summer in Paradise on the day it was released (age 13).  I was a die-hard already at that point.  Ditto Imagination. (I don't think I could stomach Stars & Stripes).

Cried when my mom came into my room and told be Carl had died.  "I feel like he was part of the family somehow," she said.

The last Beach Boys concert I attended was 1996. After Carl died, I vowed never to attend another.

Until now. I'll be in Berkeley tomorrow night for what's likely to be an emotional experience for me.

I take the Beach Boys very seriously.  I am musically obsessed with them.

I had all the records and all the unreleased stuff on cassette by age 14. I've been involved in Beach Boys fandom long before the internet, writing letters back & forth with Dometic Priore, etc., various other pen pals. It was through the kindness of my fellow fans and the communities that I was able to obtain a lot of material over the years.  I was a member of Friends of Dennis Wilson all through high school.  I put up with a lot of teasing as a Beach Boys fan in the dark Full House years.

I've seen countless bad decisions and missed opportunities over the years.  That's why this record hurts me as much as it makes me excited.

I'm not creating the bad vibes here, I'm pointing them out.  Sorry, I'm not getting on the 'we should be grateful to have anything at all' bandwagon because I expect more from the greatest band the world has ever known.

I'm sorry that I am experiencing a little heartbreak with the new album, but I feel I'm entitled to it.  Just as you are entitled to love it.

And for the record, I think Brian Wilson is still fully capable of producing brilliant music -- if I didn't feel this way, then I wouldn't have a problem with the new album at all.

I gotta say I see where DonnyL is coming from. But here's the thing. Over time, it's become obvious that, perhaps, even though Brian still wants to work in the studio and do new material, he wants, or perhaps needs, somebody in the studio with him to basically "co-produce". And he goes with who he feels comfortable with. And apparently that person in this instance is Joe Thomas. Brian is apparently happy with the results. So, if you don't like, there is plenty of other Beach Boys material to listen to. I don't think that most of their new material is Pet Sounds-good, but you know what? A few of the songs, from what I've heard, sound absolutely beautiful, and the fact that even after all these years, there are a few more classic Beach Boys tunes is awesome.

It's not the 1960s or '70s anymore, and I doubt Brian is interested in doing things the same way he did back then, if he can get faster results these days with more help. He's not gonna sit there slugging out tunes like he did Love You style, if he has a group and also Joe Thomas around to facilitate that things get done in a fuller, slicker way. I'm not gonna say that I know what Brian thinks, because I have no idea, but I'd surmise that the guy likes things to be slick, as judging by, hmmm, nearly everything he's ever done!

I think you have to accept that Brian probably wants things this way, and even if it's not what you want, it probably IS what he wants.

[Freddie French-Pounce]

I don't get it, the album has been released, but nothing on the web yet ?

Who says it isn't....

[ontor pertawst]

I think you have to accept that Brian probably wants things this way, and even if it's not what you want, it probably IS what he wants.

So then what do we make of his cries to make a "real" rock n' roll album next for how many years he's been saying it, if that's how he likes productions?

As far as accepting anything, um... er? This is Brian Wilson we're talking about! Decades of speculating is part of the FUN! I love hearing what people think his motivations are... he's so fluid with his history and reality that you can quote his interviews like scripture to prove just about any point you want to make!

[pixletwin]

I don't get it, the album has been released, but nothing on the web yet ?

Who says it isn't....

I haven't found it anywhere at all the usual places.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I don't get it, the album has been released, but nothing on the web yet ?

Who says it isn't....

So.. are you just gonna troll us with your picture ?

[Zach95]

I don't get it, the album has been released, but nothing on the web yet ?

Who says it isn't....

So.. are you just gonna troll us with your picture ?

 

[DonnyL]

I gotta say I see where DonnyL is coming from. But here's the thing. Over time, it's become obvious that, perhaps, even though Brian still wants to work in the studio and do new material, he wants, or perhaps needs, somebody in the studio with him to basically "co-produce". And he goes with who he feels comfortable with. And apparently that person in this instance is Joe Thomas. Brian is apparently happy with the results. So, if you don't like, there is plenty of other Beach Boys material to listen to. I don't think that most of their new material is Pet Sounds-good, but you know what? A few of the songs, from what I've heard, sound absolutely beautiful, and the fact that even after all these years, there are a few more classic Beach Boys tunes is awesome.

It's not the 1960s or '70s anymore, and I doubt Brian is interested in doing things the same way he did back then, if he can get faster results these days with more help. He's not gonna sit there slugging out tunes like he did Love You style, if he has a group and also Joe Thomas around to facilitate that things get done in a fuller, slicker way. I'm not gonna say that I know what Brian thinks, because I have no idea, but I'd surmise that the guy likes things to be slick, as judging by, hmmm, nearly everything he's ever done!

I think you have to accept that Brian probably wants things this way, and even if it's not what you want, it probably IS what he wants.

I appreciate your input but I'm not sure some of you understand what I'm getting at. Perhaps you're confusing my opinions with those of some of the Brianista types or something.

Honestly, I'm not talking about what Brian 'wants'. Brian might actually want to go home, watch TV and eat a steak instead of playing a show on most evenings. Would fans be okay with that? Brian might not want to produce an album at all.

Which is totally fine by me, actually.

I'm talking about what 'Produced by Brian Wilson' means on this album, and the way this album sounds. And the artistic merit of this (perhaps final) Beach Boys record.

I'm talking about the difference between selecting an outside producer vs. Brian actually producing.

Simply because Brian Wilson likes the result does not mean that he produced it.

You guys really think that BW did not have any songs hanging around that were not co-written by Joe Thomas? What's going on here?

The elephant in the room is that every person in this forum who seems to accept that BW was running this show cannot seem to identify or clarify exactly what Joe Thomas did on this album, and seem to be skirting that issue completely.

[elnombre]

No sign of it that I can see.

[Mark H]

First off thanks DonnyL for a great post about growing up loving the BB, I understand it's a shame that TWGMTR is not an actual BW production.

I gotta say I see where DonnyL is coming from. But here's the thing. Over time, it's become obvious that, perhaps, even though Brian still wants to work in the studio and do new material, he wants, or perhaps needs, somebody in the studio with him to basically "co-produce". And he goes with who he feels comfortable with. And apparently that person in this instance is Joe Thomas. Brian is apparently happy with the results. So, if you don't like, there is plenty of other Beach Boys material to listen to. I don't think that most of their new material is Pet Sounds-good, but you know what? A few of the songs, from what I've heard, sound absolutely beautiful, and the fact that even after all these years, there are a few more classic Beach Boys tunes is awesome.

It's not the 1960s or '70s anymore, and I doubt Brian is interested in doing things the same way he did back then

I started to write a similar post but gave up as I didn't want to add to the mix, however it's now easy for me to +1 or QFT! sweetdudejim's great post!

TWGMTR may not sound like your cup of tea but it's the new BB album full of B.Wilson tunes, and it's here!

A modern 'authentic/true' BW production is unfortunately a dream that likely won't come because, as sdjim describes so well, Brian seemingly has neither the need or drive to produce the way he used to in the 60's/70's.  That's more than understandable.

Maybe the Wilson/Paley stuff was the 'holy grail' or nearest we got to a 'true' BW sound, the sound being mostly done of his own volition/design

It just so happens Brian has /needs the help of others to create the finished product more now, which again is what you would expect.

I can't imagine anyone really thinks BW is calling all the shots.

[Zach95]

I gotta say I see where DonnyL is coming from. But here's the thing. Over time, it's become obvious that, perhaps, even though Brian still wants to work in the studio and do new material, he wants, or perhaps needs, somebody in the studio with him to basically "co-produce". And he goes with who he feels comfortable with. And apparently that person in this instance is Joe Thomas. Brian is apparently happy with the results. So, if you don't like, there is plenty of other Beach Boys material to listen to. I don't think that most of their new material is Pet Sounds-good, but you know what? A few of the songs, from what I've heard, sound absolutely beautiful, and the fact that even after all these years, there are a few more classic Beach Boys tunes is awesome.

It's not the 1960s or '70s anymore, and I doubt Brian is interested in doing things the same way he did back then, if he can get faster results these days with more help. He's not gonna sit there slugging out tunes like he did Love You style, if he has a group and also Joe Thomas around to facilitate that things get done in a fuller, slicker way. I'm not gonna say that I know what Brian thinks, because I have no idea, but I'd surmise that the guy likes things to be slick, as judging by, hmmm, nearly everything he's ever done!

I think you have to accept that Brian probably wants things this way, and even if it's not what you want, it probably IS what he wants.

I appreciate your input but I'm not sure some of you understand what I'm getting at. Perhaps you're confusing my opinions with those of some of the Brianista types or something.

Honestly, I'm not talking about what Brian 'wants'. Brian might actually want to go home, watch TV and eat a steak instead of playing a show on most evenings. Would fans be okay with that? Brian might not want to produce an album at all.

Which is totally fine by me, actually.

I'm talking about what 'Produced by Brian Wilson' means on this album, and the way this album sounds. And the artistic merit of this (perhaps final) Beach Boys record.

I'm talking about the difference between selecting an outside producer vs. Brian actually producing.

Simply because Brian Wilson likes the result does not mean that he produced it.

You guys really think that BW did not have any songs hanging around that were not co-written by Joe Thomas? What's going on here?

The elephant in the room is that every person in this forum who seems to accept that BW was running this show cannot seem to identify or clarify exactly what Joe Thomas did on this album, and seem to be skirting that issue completely.

I don't think it's any elephant in the room at all.  In fact, I think you've created the elephant in the room if anything.  While I respect your opinions, I think you're calling into question the anecdotes, factual evidence, and opinions of nearly everyone regarding Brian Wilson's involvement barring Brian Wilson, whom we know has been prone to giving short ambiguous answers and has skewed factual evidence often.  Yes, "Produced by Brian Wilson" sells records.  But why is it so difficult to grasp that that is indeed the truth? If you don't like the album, fine, but Brian Wilson produced this record by all known accounts.

As for Thomas's involvement, what more is there to explain? He co-wrote the tracks with Brian, he recorded Brian in the late 90's and when they got together prior to the reunion, and he's had a hand in bringing this album together and making it happen.  No one's saying he had no involvement in creating the album. He's a co-writer.  He played on some of the tracks.  There's no doubt about those things.  But I think a major mistake everyone here has been making is confusing production with engineering.  Brian produced the album.  He wrote the songs, arranged the tracks, dealt with instrumentation and so on.  He may have also had considerable influence on the sound.  Now, whoever engineered the thing had much more influence on the sound.  Brian, presumably, does not know his way around ProTools.  He needs help with that. I believe that's where Thomas comes in, and though *I* have no real issue with the sound or production, I'm guessing that's where he exerted his influence on what you're hearing.

Think about George Martin, for instance. I think Brian, nowadays, works in a way very similar to how George used to (barring writing string arrangements).  Geoff Emerik influenced the Beatles' sound more than anyone else.  He was the engineer.  I think the same works in this case.  I'll stand by my guns until the day I die that Brian produced this album.

[pixletwin]

It also sounds like Joe Thomas booked the recording sessions and the musicians. But still, that doesn't mean he produced. To my ears, the production on the new album sounds in line with Brian's recent productions. (minus the vocal effects)

[Wirestone]

The elephant in the room is that every person in this forum who seems to accept that BW was running this show cannot seem to identify or clarify exactly what Joe Thomas did on this album, and seem to be skirting that issue completely.

What did Chuck Britz do? What did Larry Levine do? What did Steve Desper do? What did Carl Wilson do? What did Andy Paley do? What did Scott Bennett do?

They all helped Brian realize his vision. Sometimes they had a vision of their own that they added to his. Sometimes they mixed the records for him. Sometimes they pulled together the loose ends that Brian couldn't be bothered to. Steve's records for the Boys sound significantly different than their work before or after. But no one calls them records produced by Steve Desper. The ideas and directions for the albums came from Brian and the band. Now, not everyone likes Joe's sound or approach, but I don't see reason that his relationship with Brian is significantly different, at least this time around.

http://andrewromano.tumblr.com/joethomasbeachboys

Joe: "He arranges all the vocals and produces the record. I record it because I think he really likes the fact that technically… you gotta kind of keep up on all the techniques that are available to us right now and that’s kind of what my role is. He’s not going to tell me to use an SM-58 microphone instead of a U-67. He trusts me in that way."

That's Joe's account.

And just as I finished this, Zach95 put it better than I did.

"But I think a major mistake everyone here has been making is confusing production with engineering.  Brian produced the album.  He wrote the songs, arranged the tracks, dealt with instrumentation and so on.  He may have also had considerable influence on the sound.  Now, whoever engineered the thing had much more influence on the sound.  Brian, presumably, does not know his way around ProTools.  He needs help with that. I believe that's where Thomas comes in, and though *I* have no real issue with the sound or production, I'm guessing that's where he exerted his influence on what you're hearing.

"Think about George Martin, for instance. I think Brian, nowadays, works in a way very similar to how George used to (barring writing string arrangements).  Geoff Emerik influenced the Beatles' sound more than anyone else.  He was the engineer."

Ditto for Mark Linett, by the way.

[DonnyL]

Just to clarify, are both of you indicating that Joe Thomas is credited as engineer on the album?

[Andrew G. Doe]

First off thanks DonnyL for a great post about growing up loving the BB, I understand it's a shame that TWGMTR is not an actual BW production.

Care to share your source for this unequivocal statement ?

Just to clarify, are both of you indicating that Joe Thomas is credited as engineer on the album?

Yes, he is.

[AndrewHickey]

I'm talking about what 'Produced by Brian Wilson' means on this album, and the way this album sounds. And the artistic merit of this (perhaps final) Beach Boys record.

I'm talking about the difference between selecting an outside producer vs. Brian actually producing.

Simply because Brian Wilson likes the result does not mean that he produced it.

I think that people might be talking at cross-purposes about what a 'producer' actually is.
Of the tracks I've heard, other than Spring Vacation, I'd be perfectly willing to believe that Brian arranged all the vocal parts, supervised the arrangement of the instrumental parts, decided on the players, and gave very detailed instruction down to the level of "On the third bar, bend the note slightly up when you hit the C for the second time". There are things on there that don't sound like Brian to my ears, and more importantly there are sounds that are missing that Brian usually likes to have on there (he's *always* gone for interesting buzzing/honking bass sounds, whether it be fuzz bass, bari sax, bass harmonica, Moog or organ pedals, and there's nothing like that on any of the tracks I've heard) but nothing so radically different from what Brian's done in the past that I won't believe that it's Brian's idea. So in that way, I'm more than willing to believe that Brian was more involved as a producer than on, say, Stars & Stripes (where Thomas handled the instruments and Brian only the vocals). And that stuff used to be the primary (though not only) role of a producer in the 60s.

But in stuff about the actual *sound* of the record -- how much reverb is used, what kind of processing is used on the vocals, how much compression is on the final track, what kind of drum sound is used, that kind of thing -- there are choices being made that don't sound like the kind of choices that have been made on any other record with a 'produced by Brian Wilson' credit, and which frankly show a lack of aesthetic judgement. The (lack of) taste shown in that department sounds to my ears like the same (lack of) taste used on Stars & Stripes and Imagination, just updated to today's technology.

So it seems to me that Brian may well have been fully and completely involved in the parts of production that he's used to, but let Thomas take control of what we might call 'engineering supervision', which is that part of production that's actually most of what producers have done for the last thirty years.

We all know that Brian relies heavily on collaborators, and has done for decades. The quality of his work varies *hugely* depending on who those collaborators are. Saying that isn't the same as saying Thomas is the organ grinder and Brian the monkey -- far from it. It *might* be that Brian contributes less than we'd hope to his collaborations, and the variation comes from the different levels of ability of the collaborators. But it *also* might be that Brian is inspired to rise to the level of his co-writers, and that working with Scott Bennett or Van Dyke Parks pushes him more than working with Joe Thomas or a bloke who used to be in a band with a bloke who used to be in Survivor. It might even be just that Scott (for example) has better judgement over which of Brian's ideas are worth pursuing further than Thomas does.

But either way, I've yet to hear anything from Joe Thomas to suggest that he's a good person for Brian to collaborate with in terms of the artistic result, even though he may be great in terms of being someone Brian wants to work with.

[pixletwin]

Just to clarify, are both of you indicating that Joe Thomas is credited as engineer on the album?

That's kind of the way it come off as to me.

[DonnyL]

First off thanks DonnyL for a great post about growing up loving the BB, I understand it's a shame that TWGMTR is not an actual BW production.

Care to share your source for this unequivocal statement ?

Just to clarify, are both of you indicating that Joe Thomas is credited as engineer on the album?

Yes, he is.

I must say this is the only time I've ever seen an engineer usurp the producer in such a way on a Beach Boys album.  Very clever.

[Zach95]

I'm talking about what 'Produced by Brian Wilson' means on this album, and the way this album sounds. And the artistic merit of this (perhaps final) Beach Boys record.

I'm talking about the difference between selecting an outside producer vs. Brian actually producing.

Simply because Brian Wilson likes the result does not mean that he produced it.

I think that people might be talking at cross-purposes about what a 'producer' actually is.
Of the tracks I've heard, other than Spring Vacation, I'd be perfectly willing to believe that Brian arranged all the vocal parts, supervised the arrangement of the instrumental parts, decided on the players, and gave very detailed instruction down to the level of "On the third bar, bend the note slightly up when you hit the C for the second time". There are things on there that don't sound like Brian to my ears, and more importantly there are sounds that are missing that Brian usually likes to have on there (he's *always* gone for interesting buzzing/honking bass sounds, whether it be fuzz bass, bari sax, bass harmonica, Moog or organ pedals, and there's nothing like that on any of the tracks I've heard) but nothing so radically different from what Brian's done in the past that I won't believe that it's Brian's idea. So in that way, I'm more than willing to believe that Brian was more involved as a producer than on, say, Stars & Stripes (where Thomas handled the instruments and Brian only the vocals). And that stuff used to be the primary (though not only) role of a producer in the 60s.

But in stuff about the actual *sound* of the record -- how much reverb is used, what kind of processing is used on the vocals, how much compression is on the final track, what kind of drum sound is used, that kind of thing -- there are choices being made that don't sound like the kind of choices that have been made on any other record with a 'produced by Brian Wilson' credit, and which frankly show a lack of aesthetic judgement. The (lack of) taste shown in that department sounds to my ears like the same (lack of) taste used on Stars & Stripes and Imagination, just updated to today's technology.

So it seems to me that Brian may well have been fully and completely involved in the parts of production that he's used to, but let Thomas take control of what we might call 'engineering supervision', which is that part of production that's actually most of what producers have done for the last thirty years.

We all know that Brian relies heavily on collaborators, and has done for decades. The quality of his work varies *hugely* depending on who those collaborators are. Saying that isn't the same as saying Thomas is the organ grinder and Brian the monkey -- far from it. It *might* be that Brian contributes less than we'd hope to his collaborations, and the variation comes from the different levels of ability of the collaborators. But it *also* might be that Brian is inspired to rise to the level of his co-writers, and that working with Scott Bennett or Van Dyke Parks pushes him more than working with Joe Thomas or a bloke who used to be in a band with a bloke who used to be in Survivor. It might even be just that Scott (for example) has better judgement over which of Brian's ideas are worth pursuing further than Thomas does.

But either way, I've yet to hear anything from Joe Thomas to suggest that he's a good person for Brian to collaborate with in terms of the artistic result, even though he may be great in terms of being someone Brian wants to work with.

See, the thing is, Brian is a producer from the sixties, and he's going to produce that way because that's what he's comfortable with. He's not going to delve into ProTools, like I said, when he knows nothing about it. 

[Zach95]

First off thanks DonnyL for a great post about growing up loving the BB, I understand it's a shame that TWGMTR is not an actual BW production.

Care to share your source for this unequivocal statement ?

Just to clarify, are both of you indicating that Joe Thomas is credited as engineer on the album?

Yes, he is.

I must say this is the only time I've ever seen an engineer usurp the producer in such a way on a Beach Boys album.  Very clever.

The man is 69.  He's not someone who's knowledgeable to the point of many others with modern day studio equipment, which includes complex computer programs like ProTools.  This is a record from 2012. Thus, that's why the engineer has so much more of an influence on the sound than "any other Beach Boys record".

[Wirestone]

So it seems to me that Brian may well have been fully and completely involved in the parts of production that he's used to, but let Thomas take control of what we might call 'engineering supervision', which is that part of production that's actually most of what producers have done for the last thirty years.

We all know that Brian relies heavily on collaborators, and has done for decades. The quality of his work varies *hugely* depending on who those collaborators are.

Regardless of our different feelings on the finished product, Andrew, I think this is precisely right.

And I'm not the biggest fan of Joe Thomas's overall sound or taste level. But I think it's possible to believe that Brian produced the record and was engaged by it, and that Joe also had a considerable say in how the final mix came out, and that the finished result will not be to everyone's taste. But none of these suppositions necessarily invalidates any of the others.

[AndrewHickey]

See, the thing is, Brian is a producer from the sixties, and he's going to produce that way because that's what he's comfortable with. He's not going to delve into ProTools, like I said, when he knows nothing about it. 

Absolutely. And if what I said sounded like I thought otherwise, I worded it badly. I was just trying to point out that the job description of 'record producer' has changed immeasurably over the course of Brian's career, and from the sounds of it what Brian is doing is 'record production' in the way that he, or George Martin, or Phil Spector were record producers, not in the way that today's producers are, and that this may be causing confusion. I think it's very obvious that Brian needs someone to work with him in the studio these days -- the only question is who that should be.

[Shady]

7 songs in and it's just a really great album..

Best is yet to come too

[SloopJohnB]

Just wanted to let this out before I write a thorough review - I've just, erm, "heard" the album and the last three tracks HAVEN'T been overhyped.