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Author Topic: New album info (as it rolls out...)  (Read 1055779 times)
DonnyL
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« Reply #3000 on: May 22, 2012, 04:28:58 PM »

We are making a big assumption here - that Brian still has the production chops to come up with something brilliant.

Since Brian was Landyfied for about ten years (1982-1992?), he hasn't geniused around very often. If you consider Love You/ Adult Child to be his last top-flight production work, well, that's been about 36 years now. I mean, we are beyond the "Brian still has it but doesn't wish/care to share it" train of thought, aren't we? Maybe that last sentence belongs in the Is Brian Still A Genius thread...

Seems to me we are forgetting that Brian hasn't been able to truly see an album's production through, from start to finish, since Pet Sounds. I think Brian simply isn't able to complete the task without a lot of help and encouragement from outside.. whether those sources are Joe Thomas, Mertens, Wonderminds, whoever.

The Brian that produced Pet Sounds just does not exist anymore. The assumption that he does is very frustrating.

While I'm not expecting another 'Pet Sounds', I think a distinction between 'not able to' and 'not allowed to' needs to be made. He really is capable of creating a record himself. Whether he has the interest to pursue it to completion is one question. The other is whether he is encouraged or 'allowed' to. I would much rather listen to BW's own creation, for better or worse, warts and all, than a souped-up Joe Thomas production.  The issue is not whether or not the Joe Thomas record sounds good.  It's whether or not we're getting an authentic product or a sound-alike.
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DonnyL
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« Reply #3001 on: May 22, 2012, 04:31:32 PM »

The notion that "we all" know what a BW production sounds like -- and that this "obvious" knowledge proves his noninvolvement in his recent records' sound or production ignores history and the records themselves.

I agree, it's the arrogance of fanatics, I mean fans, creeping in again.  They have noooo clueeee who did what, even if somebody tells them if could be b.s.  

The proof is in the pudding. I don't care what some dude on a forum (hearsay in any case) tells me. The Paley stuff sounds like everything I would expect a real honest-to-God '90s BW record to sound like.  Nothing else since the '70s does. That is all.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 04:34:11 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #3002 on: May 22, 2012, 04:32:18 PM »

O.K.... well you go about not enjoying any of Brian's music since Love You, personally I'm going to enjoy all of Brian's music including Love You. 
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DonnyL
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« Reply #3003 on: May 22, 2012, 04:38:50 PM »

We are making a big assumption here - that Brian still has the production chops to come up with something brilliant.

Since Brian was Landyfied for about ten years (1982-1992?), he hasn't geniused around very often. If you consider Love You/ Adult Child to be his last top-flight production work, well, that's been about 36 years now. I mean, we are beyond the "Brian still has it but doesn't wish/care to share it" train of thought, aren't we? Maybe that last sentence belongs in the Is Brian Still A Genius thread...

Seems to me we are forgetting that Brian hasn't been able to truly see an album's production through, from start to finish, since Pet Sounds. I think Brian simply isn't able to complete the task without a lot of help and encouragement from outside.. whether those sources are Joe Thomas, Mertens, Wonderminds, whoever.

The Brian that produced Pet Sounds just does not exist anymore. The assumption that he does is very frustrating.
Hell, the Brian who made "love you" is long gone.

see, I don't think he is.
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« Reply #3004 on: May 22, 2012, 04:38:54 PM »

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I think we all know what Brian Wilson productions sound like and they are generally weird and unpredictable, and a little disconcerting at times.

Amen. That's also why I hate Paul Mertens! He's so predictable in that classically trained way. Brian's arrangements were never so conventional.  When I hear a woodwind or string arrangement from Mertens, I just cringe inside. Go arrange a new CATS! production already and get off my BW record!

I'm sorry, but seriously?  You're dissing a guy because he plays his instruments exceptionally well? And for that reason you rather he not be on a Brian Wilson solo effort?
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« Reply #3005 on: May 22, 2012, 04:42:29 PM »

The Paley tracks to my mind would have been the best BW solo album he's done, period .

...because it's unreleased.  If TLOS was unreleased, you'd be saying IT'S the best album he ever did.

Because the world will not just shut the f*ck up when it comes to stating Sweet Insanity and the 1977 Christmas album are the best albums ever in the history of everything.

I know.  I mean, this thing about people trying to be cool or weird, or whatever ... it just isn't true.  I'm not some elitist.  I like M.I.U., I like Light Album, KTSA.  But I like Adult Child more.  And I like the Paley stuff more.  And I don't like most of what's come but in the last 30 years.  Not because I'm biased against it, but because it doesn't sound good to me.  Although I like some of the tracks on Still Cruisin and BW 88.
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DonnyL
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« Reply #3006 on: May 22, 2012, 04:44:28 PM »

O.K.... well you go about not enjoying any of Brian's music since Love You, personally I'm going to enjoy all of Brian's music including Love You. 

I love a lot of Brian's music since Love You.  Particularly tracks like "Some of Your Love" and "Male Ego".
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« Reply #3007 on: May 22, 2012, 04:52:03 PM »

He really is capable of creating a record himself. Whether he has the interest to pursue it to completion is one question. The other is whether he is encouraged or 'allowed' to. I would much rather listen to BW's own creation, for better or worse, warts and all, than a souped-up Joe Thomas production. 

Gettin' In Over My Head and What I Really Want For Christmas, from what I read, were mostly BW productions. I also read somewhere that the record company chose the songs. That being said, I think Brian was encouraged and allowed to produce those records. Honestly, I don't think they were that special. And, I'd bet the person or persons driving this new album at Capitol Records were not going to let those albums happen again.
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« Reply #3008 on: May 22, 2012, 04:55:38 PM »

I don't want TLOS sung by the Beach Boys.  I don't want spoken word by Mike Love, just because it's somehow super hip (when it really isn't) and quirky.  That's not who the Beach Boys are.  This is a new BEACH BOYS record.  This isn't a Brian Wilson solo effort, and people need to grasp that.  The Beach Boys legacy will not be tarnished by this record, and I don't see how it could without being absolutely horrendous.  Clearly, that's not what we're getting here. Brian has put out some brilliant solo material.  We have that. Now let's here the first real Beach Boys record in two decades.

I find it pretty funny at all the "We want quirky, weird Brian stuff" as well.  Like, here Brian has the greatest backing band anyone could hope for, who accommodate his every need and have incredible respect for him, and people want to throw that away because they're too good at their instruments.  They rather have Brian pounding away at some tack piano singing unaltered raw vocals, which, by the way, he would NEVER do!  Brian's music NOW is TLOS.  I firmly believe that.  That's what he enjoys.  Do you hear what he listens to these days? Fifties stuff! He loves Gershwin! You think he would go out on his own and make some quirky weird Love You Volume II? No way! He's just not like that anymore.

I'm also a little disturbed by all the "Oh Brian doesn't get to do what he wants" conversation.  The man gets what he wants.  Stop treating him like some child who gets manipulated by his band and wife.  That's just not the case.  If anything, Brian manipulates other people.  We've seen that over the years very clearly.
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« Reply #3009 on: May 22, 2012, 04:57:21 PM »

I am just stoked they have released this new album early and some of you have all heard it!! I am equally as happy that you have all had fly on the wall experiences for his last couple of solo albums with regards to the writing and production of said albums. But what really, really excites me is that you know what Brian thinks and feels and your also fully aware of what he wants to create!
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« Reply #3010 on: May 22, 2012, 05:00:06 PM »

He really is capable of creating a record himself. Whether he has the interest to pursue it to completion is one question. The other is whether he is encouraged or 'allowed' to. I would much rather listen to BW's own creation, for better or worse, warts and all, than a souped-up Joe Thomas production. 

Gettin' In Over My Head and What I Really Want For Christmas, from what I read, were mostly BW productions. I also read somewhere that the record company chose the songs. That being said, I think Brian was encouraged and allowed to produce those records. Honestly, I don't think they were that special. And, I'd bet the person or persons driving this new album at Capitol Records were not going to let those albums happen again.

I'm not so sure I believe that, no offense. In any case, those records aren't really 'produced' as much as simply 'recorded'. Everything was pretty by the numbers, and the 'production' seems to have been in the hands of the whole team.
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« Reply #3011 on: May 22, 2012, 05:06:52 PM »

I don't want TLOS sung by the Beach Boys.  I don't want spoken word by Mike Love, just because it's somehow super hip (when it really isn't) and quirky.  That's not who the Beach Boys are.  This is a new BEACH BOYS record.  This isn't a Brian Wilson solo effort, and people need to grasp that.  The Beach Boys legacy will not be tarnished by this record, and I don't see how it could without being absolutely horrendous.  Clearly, that's not what we're getting here. Brian has put out some brilliant solo material.  We have that. Now let's here the first real Beach Boys record in two decades.

I find it pretty funny at all the "We want quirky, weird Brian stuff" as well.  Like, here Brian has the greatest backing band anyone could hope for, who accommodate his every need and have incredible respect for him, and people want to throw that away because they're too good at their instruments.  They rather have Brian pounding away at some tack piano singing unaltered raw vocals, which, by the way, he would NEVER do!  Brian's music NOW is TLOS.  I firmly believe that.  That's what he enjoys.  Do you hear what he listens to these days? Fifties stuff! He loves Gershwin! You think he would go out on his own and make some quirky weird Love You Volume II? No way! He's just not like that anymore.

I'm also a little disturbed by all the "Oh Brian doesn't get to do what he wants" conversation.  The man gets what he wants.  Stop treating him like some child who gets manipulated by his band and wife.  That's just not the case.  If anything, Brian manipulates other people.  We've seen that over the years very clearly.

That's kind of twisting around what was posted, don't you think ?

No one is 'treating Brian' like anything. Some people are expressing their opinions about his music on a forum. We all love & respect him.

No one is implying he doesn't 'get to do what he wants' either. I'm sure he's quite content with the current situation and his current role. And I'm sure he likes the music he's making.

My opinion is if he were left to his own devices, and encouraged to make music however he wants, I would guess that it would come out something like the Paley sessions, that's all.  There are elements surrounding Brian and the group that would not 'allow' that to happen.

Some people think of the Beach Boys as high art. And the stuff they've been putting out for the past few decades is not representative of WHAT THEY ARE STILL CAPABLE OF in my opinion. It's just a shame, that's all. I think they've got one more great record in them. But I also don't believe it will ever be realized.
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« Reply #3012 on: May 22, 2012, 05:09:42 PM »

I don't want TLOS sung by the Beach Boys.  I don't want spoken word by Mike Love, just because it's somehow super hip (when it really isn't) and quirky.  That's not who the Beach Boys are.  This is a new BEACH BOYS record.  This isn't a Brian Wilson solo effort, and people need to grasp that.  The Beach Boys legacy will not be tarnished by this record, and I don't see how it could without being absolutely horrendous.  Clearly, that's not what we're getting here. Brian has put out some brilliant solo material.  We have that. Now let's here the first real Beach Boys record in two decades.

I find it pretty funny at all the "We want quirky, weird Brian stuff" as well.  Like, here Brian has the greatest backing band anyone could hope for, who accommodate his every need and have incredible respect for him, and people want to throw that away because they're too good at their instruments.  They rather have Brian pounding away at some tack piano singing unaltered raw vocals, which, by the way, he would NEVER do!  Brian's music NOW is TLOS.  I firmly believe that.  That's what he enjoys.  Do you hear what he listens to these days? Fifties stuff! He loves Gershwin! You think he would go out on his own and make some quirky weird Love You Volume II? No way! He's just not like that anymore.

I'm also a little disturbed by all the "Oh Brian doesn't get to do what he wants" conversation.  The man gets what he wants.  Stop treating him like some child who gets manipulated by his band and wife.  That's just not the case.  If anything, Brian manipulates other people.  We've seen that over the years very clearly.

That's kind of twisting around what was posted, don't you think ?

No one is 'treating Brian' like anything. Some people are expressing their opinions about his music on a forum. We all love & respect him.

No one is implying he doesn't 'get to do what he wants' either. I'm sure he's quite content with the current situation and his current role. And I'm sure he likes the music he's making.

My opinion is if he were left to his own devices, and encouraged to make music however he wants, I would guess that it would come out something like the Paley sessions, that's all.  There are elements surrounding Brian and the group that would not 'allow' that to happen.

Some people think of the Beach Boys as high art. And the stuff they've been putting out for the past few decades is not representative of WHAT THEY ARE STILL CAPABLE OF in my opinion. It's just a shame, that's all. I think they've got one more great record in them. But I also don't believe it will ever be realized.

I mean, fair enough.  To each his own, I guess.  I just don't think there's another Pet Sounds or Smile or Sunflower or even Surf's Up left in five senior citizens.  I DO think that there's potential for a solid, beautiful, and lovely record to cap their careers on a positive note.  I also think we'll be getting that record on June 5.

EDIT: Oh, and an aside, not everything posted in my original post was directed at you DonnyL.  Just wanted you to know that.  The original comment that really made me post the whole thing had to do with Paul Mertens and his God-forbid perfectionism.
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« Reply #3013 on: May 22, 2012, 05:16:14 PM »


And the stuff they've been putting out for the past few decades is not representative of WHAT THEY ARE STILL CAPABLE OF in my opinion.

How can you be so sure of that, though?
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« Reply #3014 on: May 22, 2012, 05:18:36 PM »

I cannot get "Isn't It Time" and "Shelter" out of my head, based on the merged Amazon/iTunes samples.  And "Spring Vacation" from that Dutch radio show is pretty damn catchy too.
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« Reply #3015 on: May 22, 2012, 05:43:59 PM »

I cannot get "Isn't It Time" and "Shelter" out of my head, based on the merged Amazon/iTunes samples.

Agree, seems to be very catchy tunes! this plus the final three songs sounds dope bro dawg.

Tho i havn't heard the Itunes clips.. since i don't own/use that and it takes quite a lot of space for my small computer, anyone willing to help a dawg/bro and upload the clips ? )':
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« Reply #3016 on: May 22, 2012, 05:51:03 PM »

No record label was interested in or willing to release the Paley sessions. This is according to Paley.

The Beach Boys rejected the material too.

Whatever hand BW had in those sessions, that reaction surely persuaded him that he needed to have a differrnt sound if he wanted his music released by a major label.
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« Reply #3017 on: May 22, 2012, 06:02:24 PM »

I'm also a little disturbed by all the "Oh Brian doesn't get to do what he wants" conversation.  The man gets what he wants.  Stop treating him like some child who gets manipulated by his band and wife.  That's just not the case.  If anything, Brian manipulates other people.  We've seen that over the years very clearly.

I understand this is a popular train of thought nowadays, but I believe it is also utterly and entirely flat out false. Look at that Charlie Rose interview. When he is asked what he thinks his own best quality is, Brian says, "Singer." Then the band start saying things like, "Oh, come on Brian" and on and on. And Brian says something like, "Okay, then, producer." And there are many examples of this: Oh, you don't like the answer I gave? Okay, how about this one. I used to think my own best quality was this, but since you scoffed, I will change and say it's that. Now if you use the kind of Smile logic that some people make here occasionally you will have someone who could say, "Yeah, but it was Brian who made that CHOICE to change his mind. No one forced him to." And the fact is that demands a real genuine and wilful ignorance about the kind of personality that  responds in that sort of way. And once you see Brian so quickly cave in like that you have start wondering, how often does he simply respond to things by making educated guesses as to what he thinks people want him to say, rather than what he actually wants to say. When the band laughs at the mention of Smile, Brian immediately says, "It's not my favourite album, actually." And that's fine. It may very well not be. But it was an interesting thing to say at that particular moment.
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« Reply #3018 on: May 22, 2012, 06:18:41 PM »

I wouldn't base anything on an interview. Brian is awkward and uncomfortable doing them. We all know Brian is a humble guy and doesn't toot is own horn very often. I haven't seen the Rose interview yet, but I am sure the others wanted it known that Brian is or can be a great as a writer, producer, arranger. Mike is always mentioning his arranging ability on Why Do Fools Fall In Love. He mentioned on Jimmy Fallon and even at the Atlantic City show this past Saturday.
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« Reply #3019 on: May 22, 2012, 06:21:05 PM »

I wouldn't base anything on an interview. Brian is awkward and uncomfortable doing them. We all know Brian is a humble guy and doesn't toot is own horn very often. I haven't seen the Rose interview yet, but I am sure the others wanted it known that Brian is or can be a great as a writer, producer, arranger. Mike is always mentioning his arranging ability on Why Do Fools Fall In Love. He mentioned on Jimmy Fallon and even at the Atlantic City show this past Saturday.

I'm sure they were. I'm merely using this as an example to explain what seems to be a very inherent personality trait in Brian. He can be very, very easily swayed to quickly abandon a position that he may have once been extremely confident about.
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« Reply #3020 on: May 22, 2012, 06:26:21 PM »

Quote
I think we all know what Brian Wilson productions sound like and they are generally weird and unpredictable, and a little disconcerting at times.

Amen. That's also why I hate Paul Mertens! He's so predictable in that classically trained way. Brian's arrangements were never so conventional.  When I hear a woodwind or string arrangement from Mertens, I just cringe inside. Go arrange a new CATS! production already and get off my BW record!

I'm sorry, but seriously?  You're dissing a guy because he plays his instruments exceptionally well? And for that reason you rather he not be on a Brian Wilson solo effort?


I can't speak for the original poster, but I don't think it's about technical ability. It's about how that style impacts Brians or the BB's music. I do think there has been too much woodwind stuff on Brian's solo stuff. I don't blame Mertens, as presumably Brian wants that stuff on it. Some tasteful bits are fine, and Mertens is a great player and arranger. But I always sense that having a sax or woodwind player in your crew sometimes makes you stick that on more material than you otherwise would. I've had more issues with the Mertens material in live shows, because there are some things that I don't think a sax is needed on. I don't think, for instance, that sax usually works as a sort of rhythm instrument. Solos are one thing, and riffs and whatnot. But I don't like it when the sax is doubling the bass line or playing throughout the song.

No sax needed on, for instance, "This Whole World."
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« Reply #3021 on: May 22, 2012, 06:28:05 PM »

I find it pretty funny at all the "We want quirky, weird Brian stuff" as well.  Like, here Brian has the greatest backing band anyone could hope for, who accommodate his every need and have incredible respect for him, and people want to throw that away because they're too good at their instruments.  They rather have Brian pounding away at some tack piano singing unaltered raw vocals, which, by the way, he would NEVER do!

Hyperbole imo

Quote
I'm also a little disturbed by all the "Oh Brian doesn't get to do what he wants" conversation.  The man gets what he wants.  Stop treating him like some child who gets manipulated by his band and wife.  That's just not the case.  If anything, Brian manipulates other people.  We've seen that over the years very clearly.

Fact is, we really don't know how it is either way.
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« Reply #3022 on: May 22, 2012, 06:35:20 PM »

Quote
I think we all know what Brian Wilson productions sound like and they are generally weird and unpredictable, and a little disconcerting at times.

Amen. That's also why I hate Paul Mertens! He's so predictable in that classically trained way. Brian's arrangements were never so conventional.  When I hear a woodwind or string arrangement from Mertens, I just cringe inside. Go arrange a new CATS! production already and get off my BW record!

I'm sorry, but seriously?  You're dissing a guy because he plays his instruments exceptionally well? And for that reason you rather he not be on a Brian Wilson solo effort?


I can't speak for the original poster, but I don't think it's about technical ability. It's about how that style impacts Brians or the BB's music. I do think there has been too much woodwind stuff on Brian's solo stuff. I don't blame Mertens, as presumably Brian wants that stuff on it. Some tasteful bits are fine, and Mertens is a great player and arranger. But I always sense that having a sax or woodwind player in your crew sometimes makes you stick that on more material than you otherwise would. I've had more issues with the Mertens material in live shows, because there are some things that I don't think a sax is needed on. I don't think, for instance, that sax usually works as a sort of rhythm instrument. Solos are one thing, and riffs and whatnot. But I don't like it when the sax is doubling the bass line or playing throughout the song.

No sax needed on, for instance, "This Whole World."

Yeah, to be fair to Dada, his criticism about Mertens was that he was predictable not that he played his instrument well.
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« Reply #3023 on: May 22, 2012, 06:37:50 PM »

By the by, I stand by my initial statement here which is different from DonnyL's point of view, that an album like Lucky Old Sun could have never been released as a Beach Boys record. Whatever the extent that Brian's role was in the album (and I think it was more than crucial), it is clearly not what has been accepted as "acceptable Beach Boys music" for decades now.
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« Reply #3024 on: May 22, 2012, 06:50:14 PM »

I'm merely using this as an example to explain what seems to be a very inherent personality trait in Brian. He can be very, very easily swayed to quickly abandon a position that he may have once been extremely confident about.

Good points, rockandroll. I've noticed that trait in Brian also. It endears you to him. You almost want to advocate for him. But, I wonder how long he's been like that, where he could be easily swayed, specifically when it has to do with his music.

For a large part of his career, he recorded whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, even if it was at odds with the album project at hand or the direction of the band. I often wonder what the band thought when they recorded Smiley Smile, maybe even Friends (the direction, too mellow for 1968?), "Sail Plane Song", "My Solution", "A Day In The Life Of A Tree", "Mount Vernon And Fairway", "Love Is A Woman", some of the Adult Child songs, "Shortenin' Bread", "I'm So Lonely", etc.

Don't misunderstand me, I love all of those songs, love 'em - now. But, at the time they were recorded, do you really think the band liked them? I wonder if they thought, "What the hell...". Did they voice their opinion? Did Brian care? That's what he had at the time and that's what got recorded.

Brian might be different now, he might shelf what he likes in favor of the good of the group. But, when specifically do you think he changed?
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