The Beach Boys and Jazz

[SMiLE Brian]

Listening to friends and 20/20, I get this vibe of Brian being into Jazz influences. Wondering what got Brian into this mold of songs after the SMiLE?

[LostArt]

Listening to friends and 20/20, I get this vibe of Brian being into Jazz influences. Wondering what got Brian into this mold of songs after the SMiLE?

I hear a lot of Burt Bacharach in some of those Friends songs.  I don't hear it as much on 20/20...maybe I Went To Sleep.  Brian was always into jazz with the Four Freshmen, Rosemary Clooney, etc.  That type of pop music of the '50s was what Brian was listening to when he was a teenager.   

[Lowbacca]

George Gershwin with his bringing together classical music and jazz was as much a revolutioniser in contemporary music as Brian was with his bringing together group harmonies and rock 'n' roll (besides other accomplishments), and with Brian being a huge Gershwin nut (influenced musically by him, plus even recording a Gershwin songbook album in his later years) you kind of have your connection between those two great composers of the 20th century and between Jazz and the Beach Boys.
More direct influences may be found on individual tracks, such as on FRIENDS, yeah.

I think of Jazz as something musically unpredictable and open-minded. That description remind you of somebody? 

[oldsurferdude]

Think Martin Denny who was an early influence on BW. Example: Title track PS.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Soulful Old Man Shunshine is certainly a fine example of pop-jazz!

Also, Let Him Run Wild: the backing track on it's own is basically jazz.

[Mr. Wilson]

Let s see Your comparing .......Miles Davis Tony Williams JACO... Freddie Hubbard.. Wayne Shorter,,   Herbie Hancock// Ron Carter Peter Erskine...  .. Larry Coryell.. John Mc Laughjlion.... AL Dimeola... Stanley Clarke.. Lenny White... Jean Luc Ponty.. Jan Hammer... Brecker Bros.. Alphonse Mouzion..... !!   SWEET JESUS.. Get a grip..!! Are U kidding me..!! BW is a POP ROCK musician....!! He is NOT a jazz musician..!! you NEWBIES scare me.. MY GOD.. Do your RESEARCH...BW is NOT a jazz dude,, PERIOD...BLAH BLAH BLAH.. I  dont want to come here anymore.. You guys are  SCARY..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SG7]

Check out Shannon Butcher's jazz version of Don't Talk. One of my favorite BB covers!!

[the captain]

Unfortunately jazz--like rock 'n' roll, really--isn't a well defined term.

If by "jazz" you mean the element of improvisation which is essential and even predominant in most of what is considered jazz, then no. The Beach Boys / Brian Wilson are not ever approaching jazz. But not all jazz is based on improvisation: there are great composers who simply wrote with space for improv; there are even (mostly swing) bands without much room for it.

If you mean the idea of taking chords and building nearly everything on extensions (e.g., rather than the V7 being the chord demanding resolution, every chord includes 7ths, and often you'll find 9ths, and 13ths, or if it's a minor, maybe 11ths; there are sharped and flatted 5ths, and so on), which is what became the primary harmonic language of jazz musicians by the bebop era, then maybe. Obviously Wilson wrote in a language that included a lot of that. But what you might want to call "classical music" (horrible term without a better or widely agreed upon alternative, I guess) by the time jazz came along was built with similar harmonic complexity.

If you mean really feeling and building off of blues, eh. Kind of. Obviously rock 'n' roll and jazz have that common parent, and the Beach Boys, as rock 'n' rollers (especially in the early years) share that influence. But I don't think anyone would call that aspect of them "jazz."

Frankly, I define jazz a little like former Supreme Court Justice Stewart defined pornography. To swap out "see" for "hear" to make it relevant: I know it when I hear it. I'll give you "occasionally jazzy," but not jazz.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Let s see Your comparing .......Miles Davis Tony Williams JACO... Freddie Hubbard.. Wayne Shorter,,   Herbie Hanclock// Ron Carter Peter Erskine...  .. Larry Coryell.. John Mc Laughjlion.... AL Dimeola... Stanley Clarke.. Lenny White... Jean Luc Ponty.. Jan Hammer... Brecker Bros.. Alphonse Mouzion..... !!   SWEET JESUS.. Get a grip..!! Are U kidding me..!! BW is a POP ROCK musician....!! He is NOT a jazz musician..!! you NEWBIES scare me.. MY GOD.. Do your RESEARCH...BW is NOT a jazz dude,, PERIOD...BLAH BLAH BLAH.. I  dont want to come here anymore.. You guys are  SCARY..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mingus never did this:

http://youtu.be/j1EPXBQV3yM

[the captain]

I should add / amend something, though. Certainly a lot of musicians who either recorded for the Beach Boys or performed with them on stage were very talented jazz musicians. And so some of that vibe, swing, technical excellence, or whatever else they bring is going to pop up sometimes.

Maybe that is consistent with my "occasionally jazzy" over "jazz" statement, maybe not. But I wanted to acknowledge the contributions of those legit jazz musicians, anyway.

[the captain]

Let s see Your comparing .......Miles Davis Tony Williams JACO... Freddie Hubbard.. Wayne Shorter,,   Herbie Hanclock// Ron Carter Peter Erskine...  .. Larry Coryell.. John Mc Laughjlion.... AL Dimeola... Stanley Clarke.. Lenny White... Jean Luc Ponty.. Jan Hammer... Brecker Bros.. Alphonse Mouzion..... !!   SWEET JESUS.. Get a grip..!! Are U kidding me..!! BW is a POP ROCK musician....!! He is NOT a jazz musician..!! you NEWBIES scare me.. MY GOD.. Do your RESEARCH...BW is NOT a jazz dude,, PERIOD...BLAH BLAH BLAH.. I  dont want to come here anymore.. You guys are  SCARY..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mingus never did this:

http://youtu.be/j1EPXBQV3yM

You might want to study your Mingus. If there's one thing he probably DID do, it's that. (Talk about shithouse crazy.)

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

OK, then Dave Holland might not have! 

[SMiLE Brian]

Unfortunately jazz--like rock 'n' roll, really--isn't a well defined term.

If by "jazz" you mean the element of improvisation which is essential and even predominant in most of what is considered jazz, then no. The Beach Boys / Brian Wilson are not ever approaching jazz. But not all jazz is based on improvisation: there are great composers who simply wrote with space for improv; there are even (mostly swing) bands without much room for it.

If you mean the idea of taking chords and building nearly everything on extensions (e.g., rather than the V7 being the chord demanding resolution, every chord includes 7ths, and often you'll find 9ths, and 13ths, or if it's a minor, maybe 11ths; there are sharped and flatted 5ths, and so on), which is what became the primary harmonic language of jazz musicians by the bebop era, then maybe. Obviously Wilson wrote in a language that included a lot of that. But what you might want to call "classical music" (horrible term without a better or widely agreed upon alternative, I guess) by the time jazz came along was built with similar harmonic complexity.

If you mean really feeling and building off of blues, eh. Kind of. Obviously rock 'n' roll and jazz have that common parent, and the Beach Boys, as rock 'n' rollers (especially in the early years) share that influence. But I don't think anyone would call that aspect of them "jazz."

Frankly, I define jazz a little like former Supreme Court Justice Stewart defined pornography. To swap out "see" for "hear" to make it relevant: I know it when I hear it. I'll give you "occasionally jazzy," but not jazz.

I meant songs like on "friends", which aren't Jazz improvised, but have a playing style similar to Jazz.

[the captain]

A bossa nova beat on one song?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'm a drummer, so, paying attention to the drums on the songs mentioned: the playing is very jazzy.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

A bossa nova beat on one song?

Transcendental Meditation is certainly jazzy or jazz evoking, or to strip away all meddlesome terminology: reminds me of stuff I've heard on records that I found in a certain section at the record shop.

[the captain]

That's fair. (Obviously rhythm of rock 'n' roll and jazz are a shared trait, too.) But if the original point is Brian's jazz influence, I don't know how much of the drumming is due to his composition. I know we're supposed to believe he whispered The Word into the ears of the annointed, but I tend to give the musicians their credit for their parts as often as not. Not to say he wouldn't suggest what he was after. And of course once we're talking 20/20, that isn't so Brian-focused anyway.

I haven't listened to these albums in a fucking long time. Probably it would be best for me to stop talking about details. (I will go into some "what political party are the beach boys" or "what color are Stamos' underwear" threads.)

[BananaLouie]

Soulful Old Man Shunshine is certainly a fine example of pop-jazz!

Quite possibly one of the best songs ever IMHO. Good Vibrations and Feel Flows are also very jazzy in nature. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

That's fair. (Obviously rhythm of rock 'n' roll and jazz are a shared trait, too.) But if the original point is Brian's jazz influence, I don't know how much of the drumming is due to his composition. I know we're supposed to believe he whispered The Word into the ears of the annointed, but I tend to give the musicians their credit for their parts as often as not. Not to say he wouldn't suggest what he was after. And of course once we're talking 20/20, that isn't so Brian-focused anyway.

I haven't listened to these albums in a f*cking long time. Probably it would be best for me to stop talking about details. (I will go into some "what political party are the beach boys" or "what color are Stamos' underwear" threads.)

I hear you! People tend to see the words "all songs written by" and assume that means the guy charted out each persons part and stood there making such they played each and every note just as he'd written them.

[Paulos]

Let s see Your comparing .......Miles Davis Tony Williams JACO... Freddie Hubbard.. Wayne Shorter,,   Herbie Hanclock// Ron Carter Peter Erskine...  .. Larry Coryell.. John Mc Laughjlion.... AL Dimeola... Stanley Clarke.. Lenny White... Jean Luc Ponty.. Jan Hammer... Brecker Bros.. Alphonse Mouzion..... !!   SWEET JESUS.. Get a grip..!! Are U kidding me..!! BW is a POP ROCK musician....!! He is NOT a jazz musician..!! you NEWBIES scare me.. MY GOD.. Do your RESEARCH...BW is NOT a jazz dude,, PERIOD...BLAH BLAH BLAH.. I  dont want to come here anymore.. You guys are  SCARY..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....and breath. Seriously dude, that was one over the top response to an innocent and valid query. Also please use commas instead of ...., it will make your posts easier to read. 

[guitarfool2002]

Brian was definitely influenced by jazz, he's said it directly and indirectly in interviews. He sat at a piano in one of them and played some close-voiced chords on the piano which sounded a lot like something The Four Freshmen would sing as a turnaround, and he said his dad taught him that on the piano. Factor in his beloved Freshmen records, which he'd learn and transcribe by ear, and that was what taught him vocal arranging - and it was jazz harmony.

Two things about Friends specifically: There were session players on that record, some of the Wrecking Crew like Jim Gordon on drums. Those guys came up in the business learning to play jazz, so naturally those rhythms and "go to" beats were in their blood when a producer like Brian would have them run down a chart.

Second, 1967 into 1968 was a fantastic time for musical styles being blurred and melded together. You'd hear Bacharach, something like Promises Promises with it's big band arrangement and odd meters, then you'd hear something from the Sinatra-Jobim album or something by Jobim or Stan Getz...either way, Bossa Nova was very big. Then going into '68 and '69, the sub-genre of "jazz rock" was starting to be called that by name. Blood Sweat and Tears, Electric Flag, Chicago Transit Authority, any number of bands or artists with a horn section playing with loud guitars and aggressive drums, and using jazz chord changes here and there. I have some old Downbeat articles from that time, they went from either dismissing it or trying sometimes too hard to appeal to the young rock fans who were buying those records and getting their feet wet with jazz that way instead of buying hard bop and Ornette Coleman albums.

(Some of the earliest Chicago Transit Authority shows captured on tape from '68 have them covering Darlin, among other horn-driven songs)

This doesn't even mention Miles, McLaughlin, Herbie, all those guys, which eventually gelled into Bitches Brew...and Hendrix who was getting into jazz right up to when he died. The lines were being blurred, and if there are various jazz sounds on Friends, it's not surprising because the musicians played jazz and the sounds were in the air.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Let s see Your comparing .......Miles Davis Tony Williams JACO... Freddie Hubbard.. Wayne Shorter,,   Herbie Hanclock// Ron Carter Peter Erskine...  .. Larry Coryell.. John Mc Laughjlion.... AL Dimeola... Stanley Clarke.. Lenny White... Jean Luc Ponty.. Jan Hammer... Brecker Bros.. Alphonse Mouzion..... !!   SWEET JESUS.. Get a grip..!! Are U kidding me..!! BW is a POP ROCK musician....!! He is NOT a jazz musician..!! you NEWBIES scare me.. MY GOD.. Do your RESEARCH...BW is NOT a jazz dude,, PERIOD...BLAH BLAH BLAH.. I  dont want to come here anymore.. You guys are  SCARY..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All pop music (as you would understand it) grew out of jazz. PERIOD.

Plenty of research. me

[PhilSpectre]

Let s see Your comparing .......Miles Davis Tony Williams JACO... Freddie Hubbard.. Wayne Shorter,,   Herbie Hanclock// Ron Carter Peter Erskine...  .. Larry Coryell.. John Mc Laughjlion.... AL Dimeola... Stanley Clarke.. Lenny White... Jean Luc Ponty.. Jan Hammer... Brecker Bros.. Alphonse Mouzion..... !!   SWEET JESUS.. Get a grip..!! Are U kidding me..!! BW is a POP ROCK musician....!! He is NOT a jazz musician..!! you NEWBIES scare me.. MY GOD.. Do your RESEARCH...BW is NOT a jazz dude,, PERIOD...BLAH BLAH BLAH.. I  dont want to come here anymore.. You guys are  SCARY..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All pop music (as you would understand it) grew out of jazz. PERIOD.

Plenty of research. me

Whereas, with respect, I would say that jazz was originally a form of improvisational blues based folk music which developed mainly in the New Orleans area, which absorbed all manner of other music forms, including latin, gospel and classical/ opera and then spread across the US and beyond in the 1910s.  It then became a fashion/ fad in the 1920s and, when it melded with other forms such as ragtime and commercial pop songs of the day, became part of the wider 'pop music' background.

So, IMO jazz became pop(ular) music, and then, with the advent of be-bop, became more and more obscure and elitist, had a couple of near miss revivals with modal jazz and jazz-rock-funk-world fusion, and then more or less faded into irrelevance.

In short, I consider most of the best jazz to be pop.

And I speak as a jazz fan! 

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Ragtime was the first printed jazz music, but yes, it was around before that. Not sure it grew out of the blues. Though they have a lot of similarities and influenced each other, jazz was always very much a separate entity. Obviously, both jazz and the blues have their roots in negro spiritual music. Both have always been intertwined with each other.

The seeds of jazz can be found in the american civil war. I have heard two versions of how it began. Both are probably true.

1) Negro soldiers were not deemed worthy of fighting alongside whites, so they were "relegated" to the marching band and given instruments such as snare drums, bass drums, trombones and trumpets.

2) Above instruments were requisitioned from the battlefield by freed slaves.

I prefer version 1, as I like the idea of the black soldiers subverting military instruments and doing their own thang.

[hypehat]

I don't really know enough about jazz theory to comment fully, but I'd say the textures (Brian's voicings of arrangement strike me as inventive in the same way as Duke Ellington or someone can be) and chord structures of swing, and 30's and 40's jazz that BW heard around the home in his upbringing are an undeniable influence, even discounting Gershwin. He's always got praise for singers like Rosemary Clooney and Sinatra, too. And yeah, The Freshmen. I mean, Brian essentially taught himself how to write music from advanced jazz harmony. I don't think anyone is trying to pin him down as Miles Davis, say. Maybe more Gil Evans.

As for pinning it down to specific songs, a shuffle doth not a jazz make. You might as well say the trumpet on Wonderful makes that jazz. Apart from Adult/Child, I'd be more partial to pinning down songs which frame the unique chords and  harmonic movements into natural sounding progressions, like some of that big band jazz does. Burt Bacharach does the same thing too, in my eyes.