The Stephen Desper Thread

[guitarfool2002]

I thought it was apple juice in that story, in a jug Mike was carrying around and swigging from until the cleanse/fast climaxed in a high speed car chase through LA.    

Questions for Stephen: Some time ago you posted some terrific details on this forum about working the Monterey Pop festival. Two points I wanted to follow up since your original comments, as some new updates have come in:

- You posted that one reason you thought the Beach Boys pulled out of Monterey Pop was due to Mike's objection to Coca-Cola being involved in the sponsorship of the event. Can you elaborate on any other details related to that, and if Coke's involvement had an impact on the band pulling out?

EDIT: My apologies Stephen, I went back through the board's archives and saw that you have already elaborated on the Monterey/Coca Cola sponsorship issue a few years ago. My bad. Can I amend the question by asking if you recall any details from the dinner you described that happened a few days later where Mike railed against Coca Cola and if there was any resentment within the band after they pulled out of Monterey if a soda sponsorship issue with Mike was one of the reasons? Thanks!

- One of my favorite drummers of the 60's recently passed away, "Fast Eddie" Hoh. After he basically fell off the radar for decades, he re-emerged last year thanks to a friend who was reading a music message board about him, and he was taking questions from his fans, which I thought was great. Then not long after they set up a Facebook page for him and got fans joining up, he passed away.

He played drums at Monterey for the Mamas & Papas and can be seen in the film footage, I was wondering if you had any memories of interacting or working with Eddie Hoh at Monterey or if you worked with him anywhere else. He's one of my favorite drummers, and I enjoy hearing any info about him that I can.
Thanks!

[Stephen W. Desper]

Questions for Stephen: Eddie Hoh played drums at Monterey for the Mamas & Papas and can be seen in the film footage, I was wondering if you had any memories of interacting or working with Eddie Hoh at Monterey or if you worked with him anywhere else. He's one of my favorite drummers, and I enjoy hearing any info about him that I can.
Thanks!

COMMENT:  Sorry, no sessions with Eddie. I was not aware of his abilities until Monterery. While checking my mic setup I did not speak with him, but could not help but notice how fast he was playing. He seemed to be putting notes/beats where there was no space for them. During his practice set I just sat back and listened as he rounded the set and played smoking fills. He was having fun, and really played with more complexity during the practice than on the song itself. I don't remember any details, only my impression. I do remember thinking how glad I was that I had some condenser mics in my setup. These microphone types have the quickest response of any mic and he was going to test that ability, with his. ~swd

[guitarfool2002]

Questions for Stephen: Eddie Hoh played drums at Monterey for the Mamas & Papas and can be seen in the film footage, I was wondering if you had any memories of interacting or working with Eddie Hoh at Monterey or if you worked with him anywhere else. He's one of my favorite drummers, and I enjoy hearing any info about him that I can.
Thanks!

COMMENT:  Sorry, no sessions with Eddie. I was not aware of his abilities until Monterery. While checking my mic setup I did not speak with him, but could not help but notice how fast he was playing. He seemed to be putting notes/beats where there was no space for them. During his practice set I just sat back and listened as he rounded the set and played smoking fills. He was having fun, and really played with more complexity during the practice than on the song itself. I don't remember any details, only my impression. I do remember thinking how glad I was that I had some condenser mics in my setup. These microphone types have the quickest response of any mic and he was going to test that ability, with his. ~swd

Thank you for the info, Stephen! I know it's not related to the Beach Boys, but I had to ask about "Fast Eddie" knowing you worked with him at Monterey. I got into his drumming through his Monkees sessions, like Pleasant Valley Sunday and Star Collector (with Paul Beaver on Moog) - His crazy fills and the way he drove the beat especially when he went to the bell of his ride cymbal are fantastic. For decades no one seemed to know what happened to him, and some thought he died or else some claimed they spotted him wandering the streets, until he turned up via a music message board.

There is a video of one of the M&P songs at Monterey that didn't make the official cut, and it has some of my favorite drum fills from Eddie as well as his ride cymbal work. I was wondering if you knew what was happening in this clip: The band starts playing, but it seems like there was an issue with the microphones - A hum can be heard, and it looks like the the M&P are waiting for it to be fixed. So the band just keeps jamming, complete with Eddie's fills, and around 50 seconds into the clip he hits a terrific fill and gets a look on his face like he's the happiest and most confident drummer in the world when he hits the crash to bring the groove back in. I love watching him drum, but video of him drumming sadly just doesn't seem to exist beyond a few shows like this one.

Here's the Monterey unused video, and they actually zoomed in on Eddie so some of the mic setup can be seen too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LooSp7_7ZiE

[LeeDempsey]

Stephen, while we're on the subject of Sunflower, I have in my collection this 10-inch Artisan Sound acetate of "Slip On Through":




Based a listening test I'm pretty sure that side 1 is the final stereo mix that appears on the album and also on the 45 (Brother/Reprise 0924), however Side 2 is a MONO mix (you can see that the word "STEREO" on the left side of the label has been blacked out, and the word "Mono" typed in on the right).  Unlike some DJ 45's which had a stereo version of the "plug" song on one side for FM radio and a mono version of the same song on the other side for AM radio, the DJ 45 of "Slip On Through" only had the stereo version; "This Whole World" (also in stereo) was on the flip side.  So as far as I know this mono mix was never used -- at least in the U.S.

Do you recall creating a dedicated mono mix of "Slip On Through," perhaps for AM radio purposes?

Thanks,

Lee

[KingLouieLouie]

Mr. Desper:

First, I am that cliched long-time lurker, first time poster and I am very honored to write you and am very appreciative of how dedicated you have remained to this message board and I love listening/viewing your study videos!

Anyways, there is one track that has always intrigued me and I read through this entire thread first to see if you have ever mentioned it (at least on here) and I apologize in advance if you have discussed this elsewhere, but what are your recollections of the "Celebrate the News" sessions?   I love how detailed you were regarding its A-Side!   Do you happen to remember who indeed was on bass and even the individual who said "Hello" (was it Dennis?) in the beginning?  Thanks... your insight is greatly appreciated!

[Stephen W. Desper]

Do you recall creating a dedicated mono mix of "Slip On Through," perhaps for AM radio purposes?

Thanks,

Lee

COMMENT:     
     I don't recall, and it's up to the record company. We pulled mono mixes when they ask for them. But whether they issued a pressed 45 was up to Capitol or Warners. 
     You may also have a test acetate I did, checking mechanical mono compatibility of the matrix. I cut quite a number of acetates in those days to check on the effect the matrix was having as the song went to disc. I would cut them, look at the grooves under a microscope, and then discard them. Sometimes I never even played them, just studied the way the grooves were formed under the microscope to be sure certain factors were in place and other factors were not happening that could cause a mis-tracking. Recording using the matrix and complex microphone arrays was out-of-the-box engineering. There were no guide lines, no precedents to follow. I was doing pioneering work and that required the cutting of many acetates as I tried to see how far I could push the technology while keeping it commercially viable. 
     Not all acetates are cut as a prelude to a release. Some are tests for the engineer, some are in-progress mixes for the artist to play at home, some have only backing instruments for the artist to sing with in preparation for a vocal session, and some are for rehearsing to in prep for a stage show and may be missing an instrument or a vocal part which is left out so it can be added during the rehearsal. These are all floating around out there with people calling them alternate versions or such.
     If you have an AM/FM mono/stereo test pressing that is cut with the intention of being distributed to radio stations, see if the mono version has less deep bass compared to the stereo version, or if the mono version has the voices more pronounced than the stereo version heard in mono. If you find that to be true, then your disc was cut in preparation for a pressed release of the same thing. But that doesn't mean it was pressed. -- or it may have only been pressed in Europe. In any case, not too many were pressed for radio station distribution. Eventually AM radio station engineers learned how to fold-down a mono mix from the stereo record and EQ it for the AM market, thus eliminating the need for a separate AM mix.
     ~swd
   

[Stephen W. Desper]

Mr. Desper:

First, I am that cliched long-time lurker, first time poster and I am very honored to write you and am very appreciative of how dedicated you have remained to this message board and I love listening/viewing your study videos!

Anyways, there is one track that has always intrigued me and I read through this entire thread first to see if you have ever mentioned it (at least on here) and I apologize in advance if you have discussed this elsewhere, but what are your recollections of the "Celebrate the News" sessions?   I love how detailed you were regarding its A-Side!   Do you happen to remember who indeed was on bass and even the individual who said "Hello" (was it Dennis?) in the beginning?  Thanks... your insight is greatly appreciated!

COMMENT:  "Hello" is spoken by Carl. It's a fluke. He was seeing how loud his voice was in his headphone by saying "hello" rather than "testing." Although the singing starts later the record button had already been pushed, so it captured his test. Everyone liked the way he said it, and it just became part of the song thereafter. Even in concert performances, he would speak the word.  I can't say for certain who played bass, but I would guess it was Brian.  Maybe someone has an AFM statement that indicates who played bass, but during those times Brian or Bruce were playing bass mostly. ~swd

[LeeDempsey]

     You may also have a test acetate I did, checking mechanical mono compatibility of the matrix. I cut quite a number of acetates in those days to check on the effect the matrix was having as the song went to disc. I would cut them, look at the grooves under a microscope, and then discard them. Sometimes I never even played them, just studied the way the grooves were formed under the microscope to be sure certain factors were in place and other factors were not happening that could cause a mis-tracking. Recording using the matrix and complex microphone arrays was out-of-the-box engineering. There were no guide lines, no precedents to follow. I was doing pioneering work and that required the cutting of many acetates as I tried to see how far I could push the technology while keeping it commercially viable. 

Thanks for the response Stephen.  I just did an aural comparison of the Stereo side summed to mono, versus the Mono side, with both sides peak-adjusted to the same level, and I think this is the likely scenario, as they sound pretty much identical.  The balance of instrumentation to vocals is the same, and the fade is exactly the same.  Looking at the wave files from needle-drops of both sides (L+R fold-down on top; mono mix on bottom), they appear to be virtually identical as well, with the few minor differences perhaps being chalked up to differences in the condition of both sides of the acetate, or variances in my playback equipment:



On the other hand, this version (also from my collection) is most definitely an in-progress mix, despite being marked as "45 MASTER REF":



The cowbell-on-trailing-delay is not yet present, the backing vocals are higher in the mix, and the whole thing is slightly slowed down.  I love the "Murry and Carl's 3rd Mix" designation!

Lee

[KingLouieLouie]

Mr. Desper:

First, I am that cliched long-time lurker, first time poster and I am very honored to write you and am very appreciative of how dedicated you have remained to this message board and I love listening/viewing your study videos!

Anyways, there is one track that has always intrigued me and I read through this entire thread first to see if you have ever mentioned it (at least on here) and I apologize in advance if you have discussed this elsewhere, but what are your recollections of the "Celebrate the News" sessions?   I love how detailed you were regarding its A-Side!   Do you happen to remember who indeed was on bass and even the individual who said "Hello" (was it Dennis?) in the beginning?  Thanks... your insight is greatly appreciated!

COMMENT:  "Hello" is spoken by Carl. It's a fluke. He was seeing how loud his voice was in his headphone by saying "hello" rather than "testing." Although the singing starts later the record button had already been pushed, so it captured his test. Everyone liked the way he said it, and it just became part of the song thereafter. Even in concert performances, he would speak the word.  I can't say for certain who played bass, but I would guess it was Brian.  Maybe someone has an AFM statement that indicates who played bass, but during those times Brian or Bruce were playing bass mostly. ~swd

Thanks for your prompt response!  I never would have anticipated Carl  to say "hello" in the beginning!   Do you happen to remember who sang background vocals and/or if Dennis' vocals were double-tracked?   Who played drums?  The only reason I asked is that Carl was on drums during their Mike Douglas appearance, but perhaps it was for show because they wanted Dennis in the front (similar to what they did during their "Never Learn Not To Love" appearance as well).

Do you have any recollection of  the studio atmosphere during the "Be Here in the Mornin'" session when Murry contributed his line?  We all obviously know of all the immense tension between them before, but how did everyone get along during that one particular instant?   Thanks again!

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT:  From what you say this is more than likely a test acetate. Since both sides produce the same results, that is, a fold-down of the stereo to mono is the same as the mono mix, no need to issue a separate mono and stereo 45. The disc proves that playing the stereo record in mono is mono-compatible for AM.  i.e. The mono side is the reference against which the stereo fold-down is compared. Both are the same, so if no mono-compatibility issues are evident, no need to spend money on a separate mono 45 pressing.   

Reference Disc does not mean final, just a reference to the label or put another way, that the sound on the record is representative of what the label states. ~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

Mr. Desper:
Do you have any recollection of  the studio atmosphere during the "Be Here in the Mornin'" session when Murry contributed his line?  We all obviously know of all the immense tension between them before, but how did everyone get along during that one particular instant?   Thanks again!

COMMENT:  I've done The Mike Douglas show (that is, advised the TV sound engineers) and usually those talk shows use a pre-recorded track with the group lip-syncing vocals and instruments. Probably Carl is faking his drumming and as you say, Dennis is on front line making a better TV showing.

No specific recollection of the BHITM sessions, but I write about the studio atmosphere with Murry in attendance in my book somewhere -- not certain if it's in part one or two.  ~swd

[harveyw]

Stephen, while we're on the subject of Sunflower, I have in my collection this 10-inch Artisan Sound acetate of "Slip On Through":


Based a listening test I'm pretty sure that side 1 is the final stereo mix that appears on the album and also on the 45 (Brother/Reprise 0924), however Side 2 is a MONO mix (you can see that the word "STEREO" on the left side of the label has been blacked out, and the word "Mono" typed in on the right).  Unlike some DJ 45's which had a stereo version of the "plug" song on one side for FM radio and a mono version of the same song on the other side for AM radio, the DJ 45 of "Slip On Through" only had the stereo version; "This Whole World" (also in stereo) was on the flip side.  So as far as I know this mono mix was never used -- at least in the U.S.

Do you recall creating a dedicated mono mix of "Slip On Through," perhaps for AM radio purposes?

Thanks,

Lee

#
Interesting. I have a US promo copy of Slip On Through, and both sides are mono mixes. I can't immediately tell whether they're fold-downs or dedicated mono mixes, but they are both definitely mono.

[LeeDempsey]

Interesting. I have a US promo copy of Slip On Through, and both sides are mono mixes. I can't immediately tell whether they're fold-downs or dedicated mono mixes, but they are both definitely mono.

Well, I stand corrected... The promo 45 of "Slip On Through" / "This Whole World" is in mono; I just played my copy.  The stock 45 is stereo on both sides.  So I guess the acetate represented the promo mono mix on one side, and the stock stereo mix on the other.  Good catch Harvey!

Lee

PS: Also interesting to note that the promo 45 is pressed on vinyl, and the stock 45 is pressed on styrene.  Vinyl holds up better to deejay cueing and repeated play.  Styrene was cheaper.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Stephen, while we're on the subject of Sunflower, I have in my collection this 10-inch Artisan Sound acetate of "Slip On Through":


Based a listening test I'm pretty sure that side 1 is the final stereo mix that appears on the album and also on the 45 (Brother/Reprise 0924), however Side 2 is a MONO mix (you can see that the word "STEREO" on the left side of the label has been blacked out, and the word "Mono" typed in on the right).  Unlike some DJ 45's which had a stereo version of the "plug" song on one side for FM radio and a mono version of the same song on the other side for AM radio, the DJ 45 of "Slip On Through" only had the stereo version; "This Whole World" (also in stereo) was on the flip side.  So as far as I know this mono mix was never used -- at least in the U.S.

Do you recall creating a dedicated mono mix of "Slip On Through," perhaps for AM radio purposes?



Thanks,

Lee

#
Interesting. I have a US promo copy of Slip On Through, and both sides are mono mixes. I can't immediately tell whether they're fold-downs or dedicated mono mixes, but they are both definitely mono.

COMMENT:  So is that all straightened out now?  ~swd

[c-man]

Mr. Desper:

First, I am that cliched long-time lurker, first time poster and I am very honored to write you and am very appreciative of how dedicated you have remained to this message board and I love listening/viewing your study videos!

Anyways, there is one track that has always intrigued me and I read through this entire thread first to see if you have ever mentioned it (at least on here) and I apologize in advance if you have discussed this elsewhere, but what are your recollections of the "Celebrate the News" sessions?   I love how detailed you were regarding its A-Side!   Do you happen to remember who indeed was on bass and even the individual who said "Hello" (was it Dennis?) in the beginning?  Thanks... your insight is greatly appreciated!

COMMENT:  "Hello" is spoken by Carl. It's a fluke. He was seeing how loud his voice was in his headphone by saying "hello" rather than "testing." Although the singing starts later the record button had already been pushed, so it captured his test. Everyone liked the way he said it, and it just became part of the song thereafter. Even in concert performances, he would speak the word.  I can't say for certain who played bass, but I would guess it was Brian.  Maybe someone has an AFM statement that indicates who played bass, but during those times Brian or Bruce were playing bass mostly. ~swd

The AFM contract for "Celebrate The News" indicates two bassists (Ray Pohlman on electric and Jimmy Bond on upright) and three drummers (John Guerin, Donald "Ritchie" Frost, and Frank Capp - the latter likely on tympani).

[bringahorseinhere?]

I hope somehow all these posts are backed up.  For generations to come, all this knowledge and experience
should be kept.  Especially as the years tick over and we start losing the principal members of and around
this wonderful group.  Thankyou Stephen like everybody, sharing your time and knowledge here.
It's a pleasure reading your posts and watching your study video's.

[KingLouieLouie]

The AFM contract for "Celebrate The News" indicates two bassists (Ray Pohlman on electric and Jimmy Bond on upright) and three drummers (John Guerin, Donald "Ritchie" Frost, and Frank Capp - the latter likely on tympani).

Thanks for sharing that info!  If you don't mind, is that information available online somewhere for all sessions?

Also, thanks Mr. Desper for your responses.  I must check your book out further!

I just want to indeed confirm that Carl played all the instruments (except flute and sax obviously) on "Feel Flows"?   Thanks...

[Stephen W. Desper]

author=KingLouieLouie link=topic=1203.msg563957#msg563957 date=1457137744

I just want to indeed confirm that Carl played all the instruments (except flute and sax obviously) on "Feel Flows"?   Thanks...

COMMENT:  Feel Flows is covered in Part Two of Recording The Beach Boys.  Part two is not yet out. Looking to release mid-summer.  ~swd

[sockittome]

author=KingLouieLouie link=topic=1203.msg563957#msg563957 date=1457137744

I just want to indeed confirm that Carl played all the instruments (except flute and sax obviously) on "Feel Flows"?   Thanks...

COMMENT:  Feel Flows is covered in Part Two of Recording The Beach Boys.  Part two is not yet out. Looking to release mid-summer.  ~swd

Mr. Desper, I am very much looking forward to part 2 when you post it.  It just so happens that the period of time that you worked with the Beach Boys is by far my favorite era of their career.

I greatly appreciate all the time and effort you put into recollecting and recounting the details of this fascinating era!  A sincere thank you!

Karl

[KingLouieLouie]

author=KingLouieLouie link=topic=1203.msg563957#msg563957 date=1457137744

I just want to indeed confirm that Carl played all the instruments (except flute and sax obviously) on "Feel Flows"?   Thanks...

COMMENT:  Feel Flows is covered in Part Two of Recording The Beach Boys.  Part two is not yet out. Looking to release mid-summer.  ~swd

Thanks.. I absolutely cannot wait!    You have done a tremendous job thus far w/the other sessions, thanks again!    And I echo sockitome, that period is definitely my favorite!   

Quick general question: How do you feel about today's music scene?   To me its reached an all-time low, especially the past 15 years!   I attribute that MTV gradually started the downfall, would you happen to agree w/that?

[c-man]

The AFM contract for "Celebrate The News" indicates two bassists (Ray Pohlman on electric and Jimmy Bond on upright) and three drummers (John Guerin, Donald "Ritchie" Frost, and Frank Capp - the latter likely on tympani).

Thanks for sharing that info!  If you don't mind, is that information available online somewhere for all sessions?

Nope. Well...not yet. 

[DRM]

Because this is a thread dedicated to sound recording geniuses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqFIc-NeHSk
RIP Sir George.

[Stephen W. Desper]

New Study-Video for the Profound Beach Boy Fan

If you are interested in exploring the artfully subtle yet radically complex nature of Brian’s arrangements, Michael’s lyrics, and the resulting group harmonies, then you are invited to experience a new sonic interpretation of the classic hits.

Provided you follow the playback instructions, when finished listening to this Study-Video you will emerge with an expanded appreciation of these familiar melodies and the satisfaction of finally hearing everything the tracks have to offer . . . IMHO

http://swdstudyvideos.com   Button: “Beach Boy Surfing Hits”   1 hour plus  

~swd

[MrRobinsonsFather]

New Study-Video for the Profound Beach Boy Fan

If you are interested in exploring the artfully subtle yet radically complex nature of Brian’s arrangements, Michael’s lyrics, and the resulting group harmonies, then you are invited to experience a new sonic interpretation of the classic hits.

Provided you follow the playback instructions, when finished listening to this Study-Video you will emerge with an expanded appreciation of these familiar melodies and the satisfaction of finally hearing everything the tracks have to offer . . . IMHO

http://swdstudyvideos.com   Button: “Beach Boy Surfing Hits”   1 hour plus  



~swd

Wow that sounds great!!! Don't know what you did but the vocals sound amazing. I think the bass is pushed forward a little too sounds so good.
Wonderful work!!!! Kind of reminds me of the sound for the vocals in sunflower.

[SMiLE Brian]

Genius work from Desper!!!!!