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Author Topic: The Stephen Desper Thread  (Read 718839 times)
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« Reply #1750 on: January 26, 2016, 12:13:34 PM »

thanks
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1751 on: January 27, 2016, 09:29:06 AM »

COMMENT:

Every year or so Stereophile Magazine features a prestigious segment called "Records To Die For" in which they invite all their audiophile staff record reviewers to name a record from their collection to the list. (Stereophile Magazine is to the audiophile world as is Sound On Sound Magazine to the professional audio world.)

This year's list (February 2016) includes an album I helped engineer 40 years ago by Frank Zappa, Apostrophe (').  Two years ago that year's list included Surf's Up as a record to die for.

Given that the albums are annually chosen from both the musical and engineering standpoint, it is always an honor to see your name listed in the credits within the pages of this venerable international publication.

((File under:  patting myself on the back ...))
   ~swd
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« Reply #1752 on: January 28, 2016, 03:19:44 AM »

Congratulations, Mr. Desper.  I couldn't agree more about the excellence of Surf's Up.  And I concur 100 percent with the initial comment that came with this you tube posting:  "Possibly the greatest piece of music you will ever hear."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bYufmMkiA4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bYufmMkiA4
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« Reply #1753 on: February 15, 2016, 09:29:29 AM »

Hi Stephen
As a latecomer to this particular thread, and apologies if this has been referred to elsewhere (but I couldn't see such a reference) may I ask about the comment in your wonderful case study videos as to the Landlocked, Reverberation, Add Some Music titles. I can accept that, in the case of the two former titles, no such product ever existed under that name, more wishful thinking in the eyes of many maybe, but you also state that there was never a project under the Add Some Music banner either (as a pre-cursor to Sunflower). Your reference discs, dating to February 1970, appear to confirm your theory too. However, in a Warner pre-release promotion not only do they show a completed artwork slick for such a title, but they also publicise the second Warner 45, "This Whole World"/"Slip On Through", and state it as from the upcoming album, "Add Some Music", scheduled for an April 1970 release.
Is it possible that the title DID exist in some form, maybe as a proposition before Carl went through the orange crate labels, or even if the two proposed titles co-existed until the final decision was agreed upon. Maybe Warner was creating advance publicity without the final title being confirmed ? I fully appreciate the facts that you never put any reels or reference discs together under such a working title, and these are just my theoritical ramblings, but as the advance publicity was put out into the media spotlight it appears, at least, the title was a reality after all at one stage, even if it was only in the eyes of the Warners Art Dept...
Looking forward to future video studies !
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« Reply #1754 on: February 17, 2016, 10:35:56 AM »

Hi Stephen
As a latecomer to this particular thread, and apologies if this has been referred to elsewhere (but I couldn't see such a reference) may I ask about the comment in your wonderful case study videos as to the Landlocked, Reverberation, Add Some Music titles. I can accept that, in the case of the two former titles, no such product ever existed under that name, more wishful thinking in the eyes of many maybe, but you also state that there was never a project under the Add Some Music banner either (as a pre-cursor to Sunflower). Your reference discs, dating to February 1970, appear to confirm your theory too. However, in a Warner pre-release promotion not only do they show a completed artwork slick for such a title, but they also publicise the second Warner 45, "This Whole World"/"Slip On Through", and state it as from the upcoming album, "Add Some Music", scheduled for an April 1970 release.
Is it possible that the title DID exist in some form, maybe as a proposition before Carl went through the orange crate labels, or even if the two proposed titles co-existed until the final decision was agreed upon. Maybe Warner was creating advance publicity without the final title being confirmed ? I fully appreciate the facts that you never put any reels or reference discs together under such a working title, and these are just my theoritical ramblings, but as the advance publicity was put out into the media spotlight it appears, at least, the title was a reality after all at one stage, even if it was only in the eyes of the Warners Art Dept...
Looking forward to future video studies !

COMMENT:  I think your speculation that it was a proposal is probably correct. I'm sure many ideas are floated around in art department land. Usually the art works in advance of recording, and the lead time they need can create some anomalies in historical accountings. I go into this with Surf's Up in Part Two of Recording The Beach Boys. Add Some Music was one of the earlier songs recorded, so it makes sense that ASM based ideas would be the first ideas of artistic rendering.

I'm really the wrong person to ask about the going's on at Warner's Art Department. You need to post your question at the "General On Topic Discussions" section. I would make the title read, "Question for Ed Thrasher"  and then ask your question about an Add Some Music title.  Ed would know, because he worked with Carl over at the Warner Art Department. In fact I think he was in charge over there. I believe he posts here from time to time. He can give you an accurate answer.
~swd
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« Reply #1755 on: February 17, 2016, 02:43:23 PM »

Stephen
Sadly, Ed is no longer with us, although I was fortunate enough to talk with him on BB-related matters shortly before he passed away back in 2006. Unfortunately, I didn't ask him about ASM !
Thanks for replying, I appreciate it...
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« Reply #1756 on: February 17, 2016, 08:15:39 PM »

Stephen
Sadly, Ed is no longer with us, although I was fortunate enough to talk with him on BB-related matters shortly before he passed away back in 2006. Unfortunately, I didn't ask him about ASM !
Thanks for replying, I appreciate it...
COMMENT:  Sorry to hear about Ed. Shows you how up-to-date I am on some things.
Let me ask you about your post/question. Are you saying that "landlocked" was a viable name or at least may have been considered such by Warner's Art Dept.? Or, are you saying that Add Some Music was a name considered before Sunflower?
~swd
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« Reply #1757 on: February 18, 2016, 12:45:51 AM »

Hi Stephen
Yes, Ed was a great loss to the industry as a whole. He told me he was working on a book, featuring his many album designs, along with anecdotes about each one, just before he passed away. Sadly, that never came to be. The interview/conversation I held with him can be found in my own BB project (see the Album Covers link on the SS board - http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23355.0.html).
The reason for my enquiry about ASM came about as I am currently updating the info in the above project to get the details as close as can be... (note: the current version available doesn't have these theoritical ramblings included as yet !)

Regarding ASM, it is my assumption that the Sunflower title came about first, following Carl's creative instinct after rummaging through the orange crate labels, and then featured on your reference disc, but when the first submission was made to Warners shortly afterwards 'someone', possibly Ed or someone else at Warners, linked the potential album in with the then-current 45 and created the ASM sleeve as a tie-in with the two releases - probably in the hope that the 45 would be a hit ! Certainly, if you never knew of such an album title, it would suggest this. The 45 then flopped, and the company rejected the album as being not strong enough without a 'hit' single - and then when the album was resubmitted at a later date the original Sunflower title was accepted alongside. Sound logical ?
As for Landlocked - again, probably/possibly a Warners creation ? The first bootlegs that seem to appear bearing that title followed the exact track selection as your June 1970 reference disc, and that has clearly perpetuated the myth further, but as that was never an intended release it suggests that someone got a hold of the listing and created this 'imaginary' album (the second 'Brother' album)... but where the LL title came from ? That still remains a mystery I guess ! Certainly if you never came across it during that period, and you would have known if it was ever discussed, then that leads to the assumption it was either Warners or someone in the 'outer' circle being creative. I could be wrong here, and I'm sure someone will jump in if I am, but some of the first mentions of the album title were in Brad Elliot's 'Surf's Up' and then David Leaf's 'California Myth' books ? The latter albeit listing a completely falsified track selection, utilising titles from another artists catalog, but it suggests someone at Warner's Art Dept was behind it...
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« Reply #1758 on: February 25, 2016, 02:29:05 PM »

Not trying to derail the intent of this thread, which is to provide us with the opportunity to dialogue with Mr. Desper, but I think these photos are relevant to the discussion.  Here is the artwork (in the form of color separations) to the Add Some Music 8-track and cassette labels, and the overlay with the Sunflower title:





Unfortunately there is no date anywhere on it -- only the note to "Ivy."
(EDIT -- based on additional research, a company called Ivy Hill was one of the companies who produced album covers for Warner Brothers in the 1970 timeframe, so perhaps this is a reference to them.)

Chris (bgas) has the matching artwork for the album version.  So Warner Brothers was apparently serious enough about the Add Some Music title to produce color separations for all three formats -- LP, 8-track, and cassette.

Lee
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« Reply #1759 on: February 26, 2016, 12:01:53 AM »

Wow ! Great images ! Permission requested to utilise these in the next update of my BB Album Covers project...?? (BTW - Lee, have you checked it out yet ?)  Grin

Edit: Actually, these images cause further confusion as to the sequence of the cover's progression from ASM to Sunflower. I believed (until now) it went through from 1 to 4 (see below) but your 'note to Ivy' puts that into doubt as, after No.1, did it revert to Carl's suggested title of Sunflower straight away ? Thus, were numbers 1 and 2 both in consideration at the same time ? So many questions...



Also, my apologies to Stephen as well if we are taking this thread off the main route...
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« Reply #1760 on: February 26, 2016, 07:37:22 AM »

Not trying to derail the intent of this thread, which is to provide us with the opportunity to dialogue with Mr. Desper, but I think these photos are relevant to the discussion.  Here is the artwork (in the form of color separations) to the Add Some Music 8-track and cassette labels, and the overlay with the Sunflower title:





Unfortunately there is no date anywhere on it -- only the note to "Ivy."
(EDIT -- based on additional research, a company called Ivy Hill was one of the companies who produced album covers for Warner Brothers in the 1970 timeframe, so perhaps this is a reference to them.)

Chris (bgas) has the matching artwork for the album version.  So Warner Brothers was apparently serious enough about the Add Some Music title to produce color separations for all three formats -- LP, 8-track, and cassette.

Lee
COMMENT to LeeDempsey:
I think everyone, including me, is interested in seeing this early artwork and I thank you for posting it. Like the recording of the album, the artwork for the album also goes through various stages of evolution. The album may well have been entitled "Add Some Music" if Carl hadn't gotten on the orange crate kick. A similar series of events took place with Surf's Up, which I go into in Part two of the book.
Again thanks for posting and supply another piece to the puzzle of trying to see how it all came together.

PS:   You might try to date various versions by the date the cover photo was taken by Ed. The photo must pre-date all title considerations. 
~swd  
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« Reply #1761 on: February 26, 2016, 08:08:08 AM »

Thanks Stephen.  I wonder if the note at the top is in Ed Thrasher's handwriting...

One more image -- this is the final 8-track design for Sunflower:



As you can see, they never incorporated the "blue ribbon" art for the 8-track version.

Lee
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« Reply #1762 on: February 26, 2016, 08:44:00 AM »


PS:   You might try to date various versions by the date the cover photo was taken by Ed. The photo must pre-date all title considerations.  [/size]~swd  

Stephen - The front cover photo was actually taken by Ricci Martin, over at the Martin family home (on his dad's golf course), and Ed just took the images inside the gatefold sleeve. Maybe we can ask Ricci via Billy H...
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« Reply #1763 on: February 26, 2016, 10:37:04 AM »


PS:   You might try to date various versions by the date the cover photo was taken by Ed. The photo must pre-date all title considerations.  [/size]~swd  

Stephen - The front cover photo was actually taken by Ricci Martin, over at the Martin family home (on his dad's golf course), and Ed just took the images inside the gatefold sleeve. Maybe we can ask Ricci via Billy H...

COMMENT:  Sorry, I should have consulted by own book, which got it right. I think Ed took the gatefold personality-theme photos over at Warner Movie Studio's backlot. ~swd
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« Reply #1764 on: February 26, 2016, 02:31:55 PM »

COMMENT:  Sorry, I should have consulted by own book, which got it right. I think Ed took the gatefold personality-theme photos over at Warner Movie Studio's backlot. ~swd

Correct Stephen.  Here is a group photo from the session, previously published in Endless Summer Quarterly (of which I am the former co-editor).  Photo is (c) Ed Thrasher and courtesy of the Fred Vail Collection:



From left to right:
Brian, "The Good Humor Man"
Carl, "The Cowboy"
Bruce, "The Millionaire"
Al, "The Organ Grinder"
Dennis, "The Cyclist"

I stood in that same place on the Warner backlot about 3 years ago, and it looks exactly the same - gazebo and all.  According the Warner Brothers' history page, that area has been featured in the movies The Music Man, Rebel Without a Cause and Bonnie and Clyde, as well as the television shows The Dukes of Hazzard, Gilmore Girls, Pretty Little Liars and Hart of Dixie.

Lee
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« Reply #1765 on: February 26, 2016, 04:16:04 PM »

COMMENT:  Sorry, I should have consulted by own book, which got it right. I think Ed took the gatefold personality-theme photos over at Warner Movie Studio's backlot. ~swd

Correct Stephen.  Here is a group photo from the session, previously published in Endless Summer Quarterly.  Photo is (c) Ed Thrasher and courtesy of the Fred Vail Collection:



From left to right:
Brian, "The Good Humor Man"
Carl, "The Cowboy"
Bruce, "The Millionaire"
Al, "The Organ Grinder"
Dennis, "The Cyclist"

I stood in that same place on the Warner backlot about 3 years ago, and it looks exactly the same - gazebo and all.

Lee
What did you dress up as, Lee?  My money's on the cowboy outfit.
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« Reply #1766 on: February 26, 2016, 07:42:40 PM »

Edit: Actually, these images cause further confusion as to the sequence of the cover's progression from ASM to Sunflower. I believed (until now) it went through from 1 to 4 (see below) but your 'note to Ivy' puts that into doubt as, after No.1, did it revert to Carl's suggested title of Sunflower straight away ? Thus, were numbers 1 and 2 both in consideration at the same time ? So many questions...



Also, my apologies to Stephen as well if we are taking this thread off the main route...

I've told Malc that I believe image #1 above is not an early version of the LP artwork at all, but a close-crop of my 8-track artwork done by someone trying to pass it off as LP artwork.  The record label info is simply too large in proportion to the rest of the artwork.

Lee

[PS: Alan -- Good Humor Man all the way!]
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« Reply #1767 on: February 26, 2016, 08:23:02 PM »

Sorry, just to chuck it out there, in the Byron Priess book, Bruce's legendary "Fading Rock group Revival" quote appears and also states:"After that album (FRGR) we shall be bringing out "Sunflowers", which will be on our own reactivated "Brother" label."

Priess continues - "The first album for Warner Brothers would be named after the single they had planned for Capitol.  Add Some Music became the first test of Warner's committment"..."Add Some Music did not provide Warner with the sendoff they had wanted for the group.  The forthcoming album underwent a name change to Sunflower, but retained the same concept and design." (See pages 94 to 95) - A
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« Reply #1768 on: February 26, 2016, 09:52:58 PM »

Thanks Stephen.  I wonder if the note at the top is in Ed Thrasher's handwriting...

One more image -- this is the final 8-track design for Sunflower:



As you can see, they never incorporated the "blue ribbon" art for the 8-track version.

Lee

Wow...I know 8-tracks often shuffled song orders around, but I just can't fathom "Tears" as an opener...
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« Reply #1769 on: February 27, 2016, 07:01:29 AM »

Wow...I know 8-tracks often shuffled song orders around, but I just can't fathom "Tears" as an opener...

Yeah, bizarre. I don't know what percentage of overall sales were 8-track sales, but that order certainly couldn't have helped sales of the album.  One of the following orders would have been much better:
2-4-1-3
2-3-1-4

Lee
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« Reply #1770 on: February 27, 2016, 03:09:50 PM »

Wow...I know 8-tracks often shuffled song orders around, but I just can't fathom "Tears" as an opener...

Yeah, bizarre. I don't know what percentage of overall sales were 8-track sales, but that order certainly couldn't have helped sales of the album.  One of the following orders would have been much better:
2-4-1-3
2-3-1-4

Lee

COMMENT to Lee Dempsey:

I love the picture. It would have been equally good on the front of Sunflower.  Do you see that building with an overhanging marquee, which looks kinda like a theater (center of photo). I remember being called to a shoot one day at Warners. That "town square" is use for various scenes in many movies, back in the day when the backlot was for filming and not tourists. The shoot that day was a hold up of a bank and the building had columns on each side of the marquee. The marquee and columns were treated to look like granite. Very bank like. Anyway the get-away-car (around 1940's) came speeding past the court house (on the right) to the bank. Three guys got out of the car and entered the bank. That was the morning shot. In the afternoon another shoot was of two guys coming out of the bank and getting into the same car, driving off. Then we broke down and went home. My job was a cable-puller. I kept the sound cables out of the way and away from the lighting cables because hum could leak into the sound cable. If the cables crossed, they had to be at 90 degrees and elevated using an "apple box."  I have no idea what the movie was or what happened to the third back robber. But I do remember that place on the backlot.

As for the 8-track song lineup. Perhaps you aren't familiar with the mechanics of an 8-track cartridge. Introduced around 1965, it was a continuous loop of 1/4 inch tape that went round and round. You could not rewind it. Fast forward was dangerous. There were 4 sets of 2 tracks (stereo) so at the same point in the loop a click was heard as the playback head moved from one set of tracks to the next. Remember the head moved to the next track at the same point in the tape, or every time the rounding of the loop reached the same point on the tape.

So that means that you only have a certain and equal number of minutes from one change-over click to the next. Sides 1-2-3-4 are all exactly the same length. Now unless you want to have a song interrupted while it was playing, you had to arrange the song lineup to accommodate the length you required.  In other words you could not have 12 minutes on track one and 14 minutes on track 2 without experiencing 2 minutes of silence. So the track arrangement was not the same as the LP so as to make (maybe) three songs fit onto each of the four passes of the loop. It was never perfect, but the goal was to have as few minutes of silence at the end of each track as possible. Thus, the track lineup for an 8-track was sometimes crazy. But remember the loop is continuous -- that is, without a starting or ending point. So in practice Tears In The Morning may be listed as a starting title, but the loop could start anywhere, depending on the point at which the cartridge was removed from the player or stopped.  

8-Tracks  were popular in cars. They were really the first recorded medium that worked without skipping as you passed over bumps. 8-tracks were sold in gas stations and truck stops more than in record stores. So once you started playing an 8-track, you never knew what song to expect when you returned to your car and slipped a cartridge into the player. It could start anywhere, even in the middle of a song. And you just put up with it, knowing you would not hear the beginning of that song until the loop had played all the way through the entire song-list.  And, some songs did not fit. Classical works did not fit. Some longer rock songs did not fit either. So you would be listening to the song and right in the middle of a guitar break, the song would fad out, the head would "click" and the song would fad back in. In classical works this was most annoying. However, the fidelity was good. 3 3/4 IPS and 1/4 inch wide tape. The cassette would replace the 8-track but the speed was half, so Dolby noise reduction was used to eliminate the higher level of hiss. At least the cassette did not interrupt the song.  

Anyway, that should explain why the track list seems so bizarre, when in practice it was irrelevant.
~swd  
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« Reply #1771 on: February 27, 2016, 04:34:57 PM »

Thanks Stephen.  I'm in my mid-50's, so I grew up in the 8-track era.  I still have most of mine from the '70s, although the foam pads inside have all disintegrated and need to be replaced (there are specialty houses that still manufacture them).  Back in the day I would buy each Beach Boys LP at retail as soon as it came out, but then a year or so later I would pick up the same title on 8-track from the Woolworth cutout bins to play in my Camaro.  When my dad bought me the car I insisted on having an 8-track player in it as opposed to one of the "new" cassette players, because I knew even at my young age that the faster running speed and wider tape width of the 8-track would result in better fidelity. My dad had already given me his early '60s Bell reel-to-reel deck, and his collection of 2-track 7 1/2 ips pre-recorded reels (which still sound fantastic to this day), so I knew from experimenting with his deck that faster tape speed translated to increased fidelity.

I'm accustomed to how they would rearrange the tracks so that the four programs would be relatively equal in length, but what surprised C-man and me was that typically the first song on program one would be the same as the lead-off track on side one of the LP (but then things could vary from there). That would have been very easy to do in this case, as "Slip On Through" was the lead-off song on program two.

EDIT: Perhaps whoever was programming the 8-track running order confused the sides of the album, since "Tears" led off side two of the LP.

EDIT 2: I suppose Mike's absence made the group photo unusable as a cover or interior spread.  I wonder why he wasn't there...

Lee
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« Reply #1772 on: February 27, 2016, 05:28:24 PM »

Thanks Stephen.  I'm in my mid-50's, so I grew up in the 8-track era.  I still have most of mine from the '70s, although the foam pads inside have all disintegrated and need to be replaced (there are specialty houses that still manufacture them).  Back in the day I would buy each Beach Boys LP at retail as soon as it came out, but then a year or so later I would pick up the same title on 8-track from the Woolworth cutout bins to play in my Camaro.  When my dad bought me the car I insisted on having an 8-track player in it as opposed to one of the "new" cassette players, because I knew even at my young age that the faster running speed and wider tape width of the 8-track would result in better fidelity. My dad had already given me his early '60s Bell reel-to-reel deck, and his collection of 2-track 7 1/2 ips pre-recorded reels (which still sound fantastic to this day), so I knew from experimenting with his deck that faster tape speed translated to increased fidelity.

I'm accustomed to how they would rearrange the tracks so that the four programs would be relatively equal in length, but what surprised C-man and me was that typically the first song on program one would be the same as the lead-off track on side one of the LP (but then things could vary from there). That would have been very easy to do in this case, as "Slip On Through" was the lead-off song on program two.

EDIT: Perhaps whoever was programming the 8-track running order confused the sides of the album, since "Tears" led off side two of the LP.

EDIT 2: I suppose Mike's absence made the photo unusable as a cover or interior spread.  I wonder why he wasn't there...

Lee

COMMENT:  Ya know I'll be seeing Mike this Monday and that's a really good question. If I can remember to, I'll ask him. ~swd
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« Reply #1773 on: February 27, 2016, 11:53:41 PM »

Fred recalls him being hospitalised over that period, explaining his absence, whilst Ed noted they were just p*****g each other off and he decided not to show. It'll be interesting to hear his response if you do manage to ask him !
Thanks Stephen (and Lee)...
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www.facebook.com/beachboysalbumsleeves - a cool place to visit !
LeeDempsey
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Avatar: Brian Wilson circa 1957


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« Reply #1774 on: February 28, 2016, 06:46:36 AM »

Fred recalls him being hospitalised over that period, explaining his absence, whilst Ed noted they were just p*****g each other off and he decided not to show. It'll be interesting to hear his response if you do manage to ask him !
Thanks Stephen (and Lee)...

Thanks Malc.  I remember the story in the Gaines book about Mike going on an orange juice fast and getting his system out of whack, and having to be hospitalized.  IIRC that required Brian to briefly go on the road with the band to fulfill contractual obligations, the most famous of which was a show in Seattle on 28 February 1970 -- ironically exactly 46 years ago today.

Lee
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