The Stephen Desper Thread

[Fall Breaks]

Very interesting, Stephen! What about Al as a guitarist, then? I'm under the impression that he actually was a better bass player than guitar player.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Very interesting, Stephen! What about Al as a guitarist, then? I'm under the impression that he actually was a better bass player than guitar player.

COMMENT TO FALL BREAKS:

They're all good musicians.  ~swd

[Matt H]

What instruments did you see Mike play?

[KokoMoses]

Any tidbits on Dennis in the studio? I'm very curious about certain songs he might have drummed on!

You've probably been asked this countless of millions of times, Stephen, but we eat this stuff up and can't get enough!

[Stephen W. Desper]

What instruments did you see Mike play?

COMMENT TO PARKS ASHER:
Most of the time I saw Mike playing the telephone (well, that's an instrument!). How many times have I seen Mike be on the phone, ask the party to hold-on, sing his part with the group at his own mic, then resume his conversation. If the telephone handset could make music, Mike would be a virtuoso. Otherwise, I've heard him play the sax fairly well, even on stage. Most of the time I would say if he was playing any instrument it was the tambourine. And don't sell that one short. He developed into quite the tambourine player findings subtle ways of expression and exhibition with the tambo. Otherwise, Mike did not express his creative talents through musical apparatuses much. His instrument of choice was the pen. Mike always had a lyric sheet he was working on in his pocket. I would see him off in the corner now and then, many times with Brian, passing verbal ideas back and forth, some making it to paper. He did, however, contribute more influence than is generally thought to the sway a song may flow, especially in the early development of a particular part. Without Mike's input, the Beach Boys would not be the same. ~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

Any tidbits on Dennis in the studio? I'm very curious about certain songs he might have drummed on!

You've probably been asked this countless of millions of times, Stephen, but we eat this stuff up and can't get enough!

COMMENT TO KOKOMOSES:  Please be more specific. ~swd

[KokoMoses]

Ok, specifically on his own songs on 20/20-Sunflower! Did he play anything on those songs? Drums? Keyboards? And on Do it Again! I've always wondered what the lineup was on that track!!!

[Andrew G. Doe]

If I may interject, Mike can also play basic guitar and piano.

[c-man]

Ok, specifically on his own songs on 20/20-Sunflower! Did he play anything on those songs? Drums? Keyboards? And on Do it Again! I've always wondered what the lineup was on that track!!!

Having seen the AFM contracts for "Do It Again", I'll throw out the names & what I suspect the lineup to be...then Stephen, please comment on how accurate my guess may be:

Basic Track:
Dennis Wilson - drums
Carl Wilson - rhythm guitar
Alan Jardine - bass guitar
Bruce Johnston - organ
Brian Wilson - piano (Wurlitzer, from the sound of it)
Overdubs:
John Guerin - drums (processed w/delay)/tambourine/woodblocks
Carl Wilson - lead guitar
John Lowe & Ernie Small - saxes/clarinets

[Stephen W. Desper]

If I may interject, Mike can also play basic guitar and piano.

COMMENT TO AGD:

So too can I play basic guitar and piano, but I don't consider myself a guitarist or pianist, nor would I consider playing anything more than a few notes on a major recording.  I did play bass lines on the Moog that were used for Beach Boy releases, but these were simple five note runs that repeated over and over.

The question I was asked was what instruments I had ever seen Mike play?  My comment is: I have never seen Mike perform (in front of a microphone or audience) while playing the guitar or piano. He may have, but I have never been a witness to any such happening. I have seen him play a few notes on the sax and play the tambourine -- and, of course, the Moog slide whistle.     ~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

Ok, specifically on his own songs on 20/20-Sunflower! Did he play anything on those songs? Drums? Keyboards? And on Do it Again! I've always wondered what the lineup was on that track!!!

COMMENT TO KOKOMOSES:

You would get a more accurate answer to these inquiries by asking Alan Boyd.  In many cases the AMF contracts and other "official" records do not reflect what actually happened -- which is, I guess, why you are asking me the question or to comment. How long ago was it ... forty or more years?  The problem is that I may remember or get it mixed up. I could look in my studio date book, but it is currently packed away in storage. So I'd rather not make a mistake here.

Did Dennis play the drums on Do It Again? Yes. I remember that one because of the drum effect and working with Dennis to make it fit. But for other songs ... at this point in time, I can't be certain. Sorry. As to the AMF contract you cited -- it's rather simplistic to my memory, but it satisfies the AMF requirement for paying and crediting the band. That's all it's good for. It is not intended to be a historical record or tracking record. ~swd

[KokoMoses]

Actually, Stephen, you answered my question perfectly! It was Do It Again and the drums at the beginning (with the effect) that I was most curious about! 

[Spencer]

did I read somewhere that there is a link to the essay 'Recording the Beach Boys' or is this just a book?

Kindly yours

me

[king of anglia]

Dear Sir Desper,

Small drum recording quandry:
I have problems getting a good, accurate recording of the snare drum. There are two problems:
1) Close mic'ing causes too much emphasis on the initial transient hit of the stick, not enough of the natural decay of the drum. Good isolation, bad sound.
2) Distant mic'ing causes the cymbals to bleed onto the snare track too much. Especially a problem as our drummer has the ride cymbal over the snare. Good snare sound, bad isolation, too many cymbals.

My own solutions are to mic both the top and bottom of the snare or to perhaps find a very directional microphone. I currently use either an SM57 or 58 as funds aren't great.

Do you have any suggestions?

One of the reasons I ask is because I have a method for changing drum sounds using convolution plug-ins. Normally used for reverb, I load samples of drums into the software and then apply to a drum track. You can get a pretty good simulation of any drum sound providing you have a both a decent original recording and a good sample/impulse of the "target" drum.

Thanks,
Steve

[Stephen W. Desper]

did I read somewhere that there is a link to the essay 'Recording the Beach Boys' or is this just a book?

Kindly yours

me

It's "just" a book.  Copyrighted. ~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

Dear Sir Desper,

Small drum recording quandary:
I have problems getting a good, accurate recording of the snare drum. There are two problems:
1) Close mic'ing causes too much emphasis on the initial transient hit of the stick, not enough of the natural decay of the drum. Good isolation, bad sound.
2) Distant mic'ing causes the cymbals to bleed onto the snare track too much. Especially a problem as our drummer has the ride cymbal over the snare. Good snare sound, bad isolation, too many cymbals.

My own solutions are to mic both the top and bottom of the snare or to perhaps find a very directional microphone. I currently use either an SM57 or 58 as funds aren't great.

Do you have any suggestions?

One of the reasons I ask is because I have a method for changing drum sounds using convolution plug-ins. Normally used for reverb, I load samples of drums into the software and then apply to a drum track. You can get a pretty good simulation of any drum sound providing you have a both a decent original recording and a good sample/impulse of the "target" drum.

Thanks,
Steve

COMMENT TO KING OF ANGLIA:

Your problem is one of the most common to plague any rock 'n roll engineer.  I can't offer any direct solution because there are so many variables; drummer playing style, make of drums, room acoustics, to name a few.

My most used solutions for this problem are... (1) Use a ribbon mic set on figure eight for the snare -- with the dead part of the figure eight pointing up at the high-hat cymbal. Ribbon mics exhibit the most broadband rejection in the nule spot of the pattern than any other microphone. (2) You can also influence the drummer's playing by adjusting his headphone volume. Make the element you want less of, louder in the headphones. (3) Using cardboard (one from the underside of a large pizza works good) or an old trash can lid, cut out a round barrier about the size of the snare drum and place it between the snare drum microphone and the high-hat. Expose only enough of the snare for striking. This may provide the separation edge you need. You might also consider (4) the use of a remote cable driven high-hat on the other side.

You will find these and many other suggestions at the following sites:  

Suggest you read all four pages of postings to get any useful ideas:   http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/191629-hi-hat-bleed-snare-mic.html

Drum miking tips at:  http://www.kellyindustries.com/microphones/drum_mics.html

Basic drum miking for Dummies at:  http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/miking-the-drumset-in-your-home-recording-studio.html

Somewhere in the above is an idea that will improve over what you now have going. Read and experiment to get some Good Listening,

~Stephen W. Desper

[king of anglia]

Thanks for that advice. I'll try some of the tips out.
We've got a huge room to record in now, so we're going to try and get some of that sound onto tape / hard drive.

[DonnyL]

Hi Stephen, i am wondering if you can answer a question about tape delays.  are you aware if the group more often used tape delay going back into itself (like a feedback loop or echo) or if it was a shorter "slap back" type effect you guys were after more often?  any info from the days prior to your work with them would be greatly appreciated as well!  thanks

[Stephen W. Desper]

Hi Stephen, i am wondering if you can answer a question about tape delays.  are you aware if the group more often used tape delay going back into itself (like a feedback loop or echo) or if it was a shorter "slap back" type effect you guys were after more often?  any info from the days prior to your work with them would be greatly appreciated as well!  thanks

COMMENT TO DONNYL:  Your best solution to answer your question is to check it out for yourself. To do that obtain The Pet Sounds Sessions (A 30th Anniversary Collection) which is a four CD collection of session tapes for songs in Pet Sounds, complete with Brian's instructions to the band and group as you hear each layer added during actual recording sessions. Many vocals are isolated. This collection, masterly engineered by Mark Linett and co-produced by Linett, Leaf, and B.Wilson, will give you a behind-the-sceens view of Brian's Production techniques. You can hear when he adds echo effects and whether they are with foldback or slap-back.
This is a Capitol release # C2 7243 8 37662 2 2.  

DOWNLOAD >>> [ http://www.rapidhop.com/search.php?q=The+Beach+Boys+The+Pet+Sounds+Sessions+CD ]

You want CD 1; CD 2; CD 3; and CD 4 of the "The Beach Boys - The Pet Sounds Sessions"

BUY >>> [ http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=%22The+Beach+Boys%2C+The+Pet+Sounds+Sessions%2C&x=15&y=16 ]

You want the green box. Comes with 36 page booklet that is full of session photos and commentary by many players and Brian.

LISTEN >>> [ http://www.amazon.com/Pet-Sounds-Sessions-Beach-Boys/dp/B000FPX0IO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1272587885&sr=1-2 ]

You can listen to snips at this sight.  It will give you a short sample of the cuts. You will get the idea of how much good stuff is in this four CD collection. A good example is Caroline No. You tell me which type of tape echo is being used!

I know that $182.00 is quite a lot of money for a CD suite, but this is a collection of Beach Boy Music that will be prized by you for many years to come. You will listen to it over and over. If Al Jardine had not given me my set, I would certainly have bought my own.

Tape echo was used by Brian and all the group for many different effects. If you count the slap-back technique used in conjunction with a reverberation chamber, then slap-back wins. In case you don't know, if you delay the input to a chamber so that it is somewhat displaced in time from the original vocal, the delay allows you to add more reverb without making the vocal sound as if it was recorded in a canyon. This technique has been around for years (yea, decades) and is called slap-reverb. Works on drums too. Tape delays have also been used to create real tape flanging effects (Al's guitar on Looken' at Tomorrow). The drum effect in Do It Again is four delays spaced 12 ms apart, giving five drum sounds per strike of the head. Some dual vocal parts were never doubled with a live overdub, rather a delayed copy added to the opposit channel was used. Hope this helps, but really -- if you can -- listen to Brian's session tapes on the CD.

Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT:  Word around the inside is that a 50th Anniversary get-together of the boys is being considered. Everyone feels something should happen.  More later ...

~SWD

[DonnyL]

wow, thanks for all the info!  i usually use slap but i stumbled accross the "foldback" technique ... i want to make sure i am doing it correctly: i send the buss output from the mixer to the tape deck, record and then take the playback head output to the exact same buss channel, so it echos within itself.  i noticed it gets pretty crazy and "rings" if i turn the gain up to loud!

hopefully the guys get together for the 50th!  thanks for all of your help and valuable insight, it means a lot to me personally.

[Stephen W. Desper]

wow, thanks for all the info!  i usually use slap but i stumbled across the "foldback" technique ... i want to make sure i am doing it correctly: i send the buss output from the mixer to the tape deck, record and then take the playback head output to the exact same buss channel, so it echos within itself.  i noticed it gets pretty crazy and "rings" if i turn the gain up to loud!

hopefully the guys get together for the 50th!  thanks for all of your help and valuable insight, it means a lot to me personally.

COMMENT TO DONNYL:   Tape foldback is essentially connecting the input of a tape recorder (or delay unit) to the output of the same tape recorder, with the monitor set to listen to the playback head. The time it takes for the recorded signal to move from the record head to the playback head (tape speed) will determin the length of the echo. Re-injecting the signal back into the loop (foldback) determines the intensity of the echo, proportional to the level of re-injection.  Suggest you insert EQ into the loop and try different cuts or boosts to selected frequencies to modify the sound.

Les Paul (of guitar fame) was one of the first users of tape foldback echo. You can hear an example at this link.

LISTEN >>> [ http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Collection-Paul-Mary-Ford/dp/samples/B000AUZUFA/ref=dp_tracks_all_1#disc_1 ]

This is before rock-&-roll, but still some very clear use of tape delay on great guitar playing. Listen to ALL the sample tracks and you will hear many examples of the good use of tape foldback echo.  

   ~swd

[DonnyL]

thats what i thought, thanks!  i actually do have an EQ inserted between -- that mid range boost really gives it that crazy warbly ring. 

ps - caroline no sounds like foldback

[smile-holland]

In case you haven't logged out yet, mr. Desper: congratulations with your birthday !!

[DonnyL]

What would really be great is if the group would get back together for some new recordings to tape with you running the board!