When was Dennis Point of no return?

[endofposts]

Here's some more on the topic of what might have happened to Dennis that day (I know, it is morbid, but interesting to speculate):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_water_blackout

It describes how people who take free dives in shallow water, holding their breath underwater for prolonged amounts of time, can drown from blacking out.  This is due to their breath-holding causing them to hyperventilate before they even take the dive under and depriving their brains of oxygen, which causes them to black out, lose consciousness, and go to the bottom of the water silently, where they drown if no one finds them quickly enough (which they often don't, because there's no cry of distress).  It says it can happen to young, fit people who believe they're stong swimmers and have experience holding their breath for a long time, but they just get into a situation of blacking out that they never anticipate. 

[MBE]

It remains a slight shock the way the together Dennis of the 1974 doc, or the 1976 Lorne Michaels special, changed so quickly to the out of control one on Midnight Special in 1979 or Good Morning America in 1980. All the interviews I have heard from 1976-77 have him being thoughtful and articulate. Murry's death was the factor that tipped Brian and Dennis over to me, but Dennis took time to unravel. 1971 seems to be the first majorly destructive incident (with his hand) that you can trace to his problems later. Perhaps it wouldn't have progressed from there if Murry hadn't died, but we can't know. There was some drunk performances after Murry did pass in 1973, but Dennis came off so much more healthy than later. 1974 was the vocal change which we can probably put down to the throat punch. Late 1976 seems to be when he started looking rough. 1977 the bad stage performances started for real. By 1978 he was obviously in trouble, and I too would say the Superbowl 1981 incident seems to be when he seemed almost like he couldn't go back anymore.

I suppose it was, like Brian, a deep rooted emotional issue that eventually turned into a substance issue. Brian's fall seemed far slower, (though to be fair he also in the two years before Murry died seemed to gradually be having more addictive behavior or reclusive behavior that like I said above only tipped into true self destruction after June 1973) but I suppose Dennis' descent was by stages too. Still its interesting to see the changes from 15 Big Ones to even POB. Something in his eyes had changed. I agree with what Desper told me about Brian and Dennis sustaining through the early seventies because the group communicated well as a team. "Toking on the same joint" as he put it. I feel I figured out why Murry's death hit Brian and Dennis so hard. Yet for me I still would like to know what part the inter group tentions of mid seventies and beyond played in their decline.  Or maybe it was  more the other way around and the decline caused the tention? Chicken and the egg isn't it? Dennis was thinking of leaving the group in 1971, Brian didn't want Surf's Up used, were those the first signs of true trouble within the band? Obviously the division wasn't nearly as bad as later but they felt like they were being overruled as early as then. Really I see 1971 being the root cause of problems far more than 1967. Still it wasn't really until 1977 that group ceased acting like a unit by and large. So many questions remain don't they? I hope my book will give some clarity as to why it went wrong for Dennis, Brian, and the group as a whole. I can't offer a clean all purpose solution, but my goal was that to provoke more reasoned thinking about the band.

[runnersdialzero]

1974 was the vocal change which we can probably put down to the throat punch.

I've read conflicting things about this. Was it...

a) Dennis was punched in the throat in '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?
b) Dennis' substance abuse caught up to him by '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?

[Jay]

I think it was the Badman book(I know, kind of a poor source) that mentioned that Dennis wanted to leave the group in the early 1970's. I think he threatened to leave more than once. The book also mentions that Dennis was "fined" after the opening night of a tour. I think it was the 1975 tour. He apparently drank a full bottle of wine. So I think 1974-75 might have been one of the first signs of serious trouble. The hand injury was a sign, but it didn't affect his ability to perform. Well, he couldn't drum, but it didn't affect him in the way that heavy drinking did.  I agree with Mike Eder that it's shocking to see the difference in Dennis between the 1976 Lorne Michaels special, and the 1977 Maryland show, for example. You can see in Dennis's eyes in the Maryland footage that he's pretty wrecked. He still looked fairly good though, physically. His beard was thicker in 1978-ish. In the pictures of Dennis in the POB booklet, he has a really thick beard, and maybe some bags under his eyes. By 1979 he looked really rough. After that he just went full speed ahead, almost like a train without the breaks. Although, I've always thought that Dennis looked fairly together in those 1983 group photos.

I have to disagree with Mike regarding Brian, though. Brian still looked really good up to around mid 1973, and his voice was the same. But within a year or so, the voice was gone, and he started to seem more out of it in photos. The "deer in the headlights" look. He also gained a lot of weight, and seemed uninterested as far as The Beach Boys were concerned. I think Brian's decline was much quicker, and much more apparent than Dennis's.

[Jay]

1974 was the vocal change which we can probably put down to the throat punch.

I've read conflicting things about this. Was it...

a) Dennis was punched in the throat in '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?
b) Dennis' substance abuse caught up to him by '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?

I once did some research regarding the issue of Dennis's voice change. I listened to as many 1971-74 concerts with Dennis singing that I could find. I have come to the conclusion that if Dennis had kept quiet and rested his voice, he most likely would have been able to save much of what he lost. His drinking and smoking probably did more damage than the punch would have. But I think that the 1981 beating by Stan Love and Rocky Pamplin well and truly ruined his voice beyond repair.

[MBE]

1974 was the vocal change which we can probably put down to the throat punch.

I've read conflicting things about this. Was it...

a) Dennis was punched in the throat in '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?
b) Dennis' substance abuse caught up to him by '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?

I go with A due to stories I heard from several different sources that matched.

Jay I agree about Brian vocally and physically changing pretty quickly (though I would say the vocal damage happened mainly in 1975 with the weight gain and general untidiness happening in 1974. I more meant that his mental issues and drug problems seemed to develop over a longer period of time, whereas Dennis seemed to go down fast at least in how he presented himself in public. I am sure in private these issues had been festering for him as well, but he was coping to some degree after Murry's death than all of a sudden he wasn't. Smoking, cocaine, and booze didn't help Dennis as a singer but I still think the punches in 1974 and 1981 triggered serious damage that would have taken longer to become evident. I too think Dennis could have gotten some of his vocal chops back, but he didn't follow his doctors orders on how to heal his voice so that's why he never recovered to any great extent. The 1973 Forever performance I heard is very clear vocally, as was the early River Song.   

[runnersdialzero]

1974 was the vocal change which we can probably put down to the throat punch.

I've read conflicting things about this. Was it...

a) Dennis was punched in the throat in '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?
b) Dennis' substance abuse caught up to him by '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?

I go with A due to stories I heard from several different sources that matched.

Jay I agree about Brian vocally and physically changing pretty quickly (though I would say the vocal damage happened mainly in 1975 with the weight gain and general untidiness happening in 1974. I more meant that his mental issues and drug problems seemed to develop over a longer period of time, whereas Dennis seemed to go down fast at least in how he presented himself in public. I am sure in private these issues had been festering for him as well, but he was coping to some degree after Murry's death than all of a sudden he wasn't. Smoking, cocaine, and booze didn't help Dennis as a singer but I still think the punches in 1974 and 1981 triggered serious damage that would have taken longer to become evident. I too think Dennis could have gotten some of his vocal chops back, but he didn't follow his doctors orders on how to heal his voice so that's why he never recovered to any great extent. The 1973 Forever performance I heard is very clear vocally, as was the early River Song.   

Thanks for the info/clarification

Also, the early "River Song" doesn't circulate among fans, does it?

[MBE]

Yeah it actually came out in 1987 on the California Feeling LP boot and has been reissued many times since. It's very good but not finished.

[PhilSpectre]

From what I've read here and elsewhere, it seems to me that at least two of the Wilsons (Brian and Dennis) were pretty much through with the Beach Boys as a band by the early-mid-'70s, and on most of their later contributions to the band in the late '70s, the Wilsons often worked together, without the other guys, and it was perhaps due to family/ group politics that Dennis's '70s BB stuff never appeared on a DW solo album.

Even Carl had his substance period where he was apparently closer to his brothers for a while and then temporarily left the group in the early '80s to go solo, before coming back and seemingly taking more of a back seat on their records than before, while remaining firmly the live band's musical director, of course.

Makes me think if the Wilson bros had been a bit more together in late '70s, we could have had a Beach Boys consisting only of Mike, Al and Bruce in the '80s, with the Wilsons either forming their own splinter group (they were imo the spiritual heart of the band) or pursuing solo careers while helping out on each other's records, or the brothers even making a legal bid to take the BBs band name for themselves 

[Sound of Free]

What's really a shame is that he didn't live to the New Year, when Jimmy & Carl's intervention was planned.  Of course there's a good chance it wouldn't have worked, or maybe worked for only for a little while but not long term, but I think it was probably his best bet.  But we'll never know. 

I asked this once before, but I don't think I ever got an answer: Brian/Landy said in the "Wouldn't It Be Nice" that Carl had asked Landy to work with Dennis. Was Landy going to be part of the Carl/Guercio intervention?

Obviously the best-case scenario would be Landy getting Dennis "clean" and then Dennis seeing through Landy's bullmerda and telling Brian, "We can stay sober without this guy," and rescuing Brian before Landy did his pharmaceutical damage. Of course, as long as I'm dreaming, I might as well ask for a pony.  :-)

[adamghost]

Brian's voice change happened stunningly fast.  There are demos as late as November/December '74 where he sounds 80% the same guy.  It's really quite shocking to me.  It really seems like something happened.

Dennis' is more gradual and more easily to imagine reversing.  I'm sure the punch in the throat was a factor, but constant strain is the real culprit a lot of the time, and it doesn't seem like he took very good care of his voice.

[MBE]

I asked Brian about the voice change and he confirmed he wanted to sound different from 1975 on. Now I also confirmed with others that he was smoking an incredible amount very suddenly to wreck his voice. Add the cocaine and Brian's voice changed radically. Whether he knew it wouldn't go back, I still think it was self inflicted. Who knows maybe he tried to hurt it violently.

[runnersdialzero]

I asked Brian about the voice change and he confirmed he wanted to sound different from 1975 on. Now I also confirmed with others that he was smoking an incredible amount very suddenly to wreck his voice. Add the cocaine and Brian's voice changed radically. Whether he knew it wouldn't go back, I still think it was self inflicted. Who knows maybe he tried to hurt it violently.

Always breaks my heart when reading this. I don't think he realized he was silencing the voice of songs like "Wouldn't It Be Nice?", "Don't Worry Baby", etc. forever.

[jabba2]

I dont think Dennis ever recovered from the Manson murders and the thought that some in the family were still out to get him. When Murray died it was just a continuation of what started. Dennis' last years were just a constant looking to score drugs or booze phase. Dennis would go in bars announce who he was, and ask someone to buy him a beer. That wasnt exactly the sign of someone on the verge of turning it around.

[b00ts]

I asked Brian about the voice change and he confirmed he wanted to sound different from 1975 on. Now I also confirmed with others that he was smoking an incredible amount very suddenly to wreck his voice. Add the cocaine and Brian's voice changed radically. Whether he knew it wouldn't go back, I still think it was self inflicted. Who knows maybe he tried to hurt it violently.

Always breaks my heart when reading this. I don't think he realized he was silencing the voice of songs like "Wouldn't It Be Nice?", "Don't Worry Baby", etc. forever.

I have a very "smooth" singing voice, with a high range, like Brian in the 60s (although I am not comparing myself to him, he was an incredible singer, I am not that great). I have had people say to me "you should some some cigarettes to get a more gravely voice."

Setting aside how absolutely idiotic that notion is, I can imagine that Brian had some people say that to him from time to time, especially when he complained that his voice was too smooth/high-pitched. I think he had an issue with not sounding masculine enough.

[runnersdialzero]

I have a very "smooth" singing voice, with a high range, like Brian in the 60s (although I am not comparing myself to him, he was an incredible singer, I am not that great). I have had people say to me "you should some some cigarettes to get a more gravely voice."

Setting aside how absolutely idiotic that notion is, I can imagine that Brian had some people say that to him from time to time, especially when he complained that his voice was too smooth/high-pitched. I think he had an issue with not sounding masculine enough.

Who? Seriously, who not only thinks this is a good idea (because apparently everyone should sound like the guy from Nickelback?) but then goes and suggests it to others?

[pixletwin]

I have a very "smooth" singing voice, with a high range, like Brian in the 60s (although I am not comparing myself to him, he was an incredible singer, I am not that great). I have had people say to me "you should some some cigarettes to get a more gravely voice."

Setting aside how absolutely idiotic that notion is, I can imagine that Brian had some people say that to him from time to time, especially when he complained that his voice was too smooth/high-pitched. I think he had an issue with not sounding masculine enough.

Who? Seriously, who not only thinks this is a good idea (because apparently everyone should sound like the guy from Nickelback?) but then goes and suggests it to others?

This guy says he did.



(Frank Sinatra) 

[b00ts]

I have a very "smooth" singing voice, with a high range, like Brian in the 60s (although I am not comparing myself to him, he was an incredible singer, I am not that great). I have had people say to me "you should some some cigarettes to get a more gravely voice."

Setting aside how absolutely idiotic that notion is, I can imagine that Brian had some people say that to him from time to time, especially when he complained that his voice was too smooth/high-pitched. I think he had an issue with not sounding masculine enough.

Who? Seriously, who not only thinks this is a good idea (because apparently everyone should sound like the guy from Nickelback?) but then goes and suggests it to others?

A couple of idiotic people I knew many years ago in college. Nobody who is reasonably intelligent. I even feel stupid just mentioning it.

I do think, though, that this is the kind of mindset Brian had about his voice - this is the same guy who created one of the most brilliant pieces of music in history and scrapped it. In his case, it wasn't idiocy, but a strong lack of self-confidence.

I am really glad that Brian has gotten out of his "shouting" phase over the past few years. Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin in particular has some of his most nuanced, mellifluous vocals since the early 70s.

[Jay]

To be honest, I think Dennis sounds somewhat rough in the early River Song recording. Especially on "You Know it's rough, getting round this place..." and "I'm looking for some country life...". He does sound very good, but on those two instances I can definitely hear the Dennis voice of 1976 and beyond.

[Jay]

1974 was the vocal change which we can probably put down to the throat punch.

I've read conflicting things about this. Was it...

a) Dennis was punched in the throat in '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?
b) Dennis' substance abuse caught up to him by '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?

I go with A due to stories I heard from several different sources that matched.

Jay I agree about Brian vocally and physically changing pretty quickly (though I would say the vocal damage happened mainly in 1975 with the weight gain and general untidiness happening in 1974. I more meant that his mental issues and drug problems seemed to develop over a longer period of time, whereas Dennis seemed to go down fast at least in how he presented himself in public. I am sure in private these issues had been festering for him as well, but he was coping to some degree after Murry's death than all of a sudden he wasn't. Smoking, cocaine, and booze didn't help Dennis as a singer but I still think the punches in 1974 and 1981 triggered serious damage that would have taken longer to become evident. I too think Dennis could have gotten some of his vocal chops back, but he didn't follow his doctors orders on how to heal his voice so that's why he never recovered to any great extent. The 1973 Forever performance I heard is very clear vocally, as was the early River Song.  

Regarding Brian's drug problems, I think Carl once said that he didn't realise how bad the cocaine use was until the CATP sessions. But now that I think about it, it wasn't until around 1977 that it became noticeable, like in the Maryland show. By January of 1978, he was jumping head first into heroin, and a very dark place.

[MBE]

1974 was the vocal change which we can probably put down to the throat punch.

I've read conflicting things about this. Was it...

a) Dennis was punched in the throat in '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?
b) Dennis' substance abuse caught up to him by '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?

I go with A due to stories I heard from several different sources that matched.

Jay I agree about Brian vocally and physically changing pretty quickly (though I would say the vocal damage happened mainly in 1975 with the weight gain and general untidiness happening in 1974. I more meant that his mental issues and drug problems seemed to develop over a longer period of time, whereas Dennis seemed to go down fast at least in how he presented himself in public. I am sure in private these issues had been festering for him as well, but he was coping to some degree after Murry's death than all of a sudden he wasn't. Smoking, cocaine, and booze didn't help Dennis as a singer but I still think the punches in 1974 and 1981 triggered serious damage that would have taken longer to become evident. I too think Dennis could have gotten some of his vocal chops back, but he didn't follow his doctors orders on how to heal his voice so that's why he never recovered to any great extent. The 1973 Forever performance I heard is very clear vocally, as was the early River Song.  

Regarding Brian's drug problems, I think Carl once said that he didn't realise how bad the cocaine use was until the CATP sessions. But now that I think about it, it wasn't until around 1977 that it became noticeable, like in the Maryland show. By January of 1978, he was jumping head first into heroin, and a very dark place.

Well it's just hard to say how Brian was from 1972-75 as he wasn't in public much. I would assume his drug use became real bad after Murry died, but no doubt to me that by 1972 things had the potential to get bad.  He seems a bit coked out on that 9-1-74 interview to me, but as far as obvious behavior I suppose 1977 was different as far as his condition being obviously caught on film or tape.

[Paul J B]

Smoking and drinking and drugs at a preposterous rate for years killed Denny's voice. It ruined his looks as well. I remember seeing close up photos of him in '83 and he had that smokers skin, the premature wrinkles. Because he had periods along the way when his voice seemed better or worse at times means nothing. To suggest a punch to the throat at some point did his voice in is searching for a more "dramatic" answer, when the obvious is staring right at you. Look at how many pictures in the new Smile book show Denny with a cigarette.

[MBE]

Smoking and drinking and drugs at a preposterous rate for years killed Denny's voice. It ruined his looks as well. I remember seeing close up photos of him in '83 and he had that smokers skin, the premature wrinkles. Because he had periods along the way when his voice seemed better or worse at times means nothing. To suggest a punch to the throat at some point did his voice in is searching for a more "dramatic" answer, when the obvious is staring right at you. Look at how many pictures in the new Smile book show Denny with a cigarette.

Ask Ed Roach and Steve Desper they will tell you quite different. I stand by everything I said.

[runnersdialzero]

They couldn't have helped, but Dennis' vocal change was fairly drastic and sudden. Brian's was, too, but his was deliberate and even had Dennis, of all people, telling him he shouldn't smoke so much. Dennis Wilson told Brian Wilson to cut back on the smokes - that's really somethin'.

So yeah, again, I doubt the drinking and smoking helped, but the throat punch causing significant damage and change feels pretty believable.

[Jon Stebbins]

Smoking and drinking and drugs at a preposterous rate for years killed Denny's voice. It ruined his looks as well. I remember seeing close up photos of him in '83 and he had that smokers skin, the premature wrinkles. Because he had periods along the way when his voice seemed better or worse at times means nothing. To suggest a punch to the throat at some point did his voice in is searching for a more "dramatic" answer, when the obvious is staring right at you. Look at how many pictures in the new Smile book show Denny with a cigarette.

Cigarettes didn't help, but a debilitating punch to the throat is not "drama" its an established fact. To say its all due to cigarettes because you saw "an up close photo" doesn't square with the additional fact that Carl smoked as much as Dennis. As usual the answer is never black and white...DW's damage or raspiness was due to lifestyle as well as the fact that he had a serious injury (or two) that permanently altered his voice. A trace of rasp was already there in '64 and built slowly into '73 or '74...by '77 it was more gruff than rasp...and by '81 the voice was completely gone.