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Author Topic: SMiLE: Bring It On, Fanmixers.  (Read 48009 times)
Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #200 on: March 31, 2014, 05:46:13 PM »

I love "Our Prayer", one of my favorite BB/BW songs, and it's in all my SMiLE fanmixes. But, I wonder if it would've been on a 1967 album? Sometimes I can hear the album starting out simply with "Heroes And Villains".

According to Vosse it was the ending. According to Brian on the tapes it's an intro to the album. I disagree that it wouldve been left off. It wouldve been part of H&V, not its own entity as has happened retroactively, so technically the album *would* be starting simply with H&V.

I can't remember, was "Our Prayer" listed separately on the infamous handwritten tracklist submitted to Capitol by whoever?

To me, "Our Prayer" never sounded like an "introductory" piece. Not that it matters, but I've always ended my SMiLE fanmixes with "Our Prayer" then "Surf's Up".
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« Reply #201 on: March 31, 2014, 05:54:17 PM »

I don't believe it was, I think as far as Brian was concerned it was a H&V fragment
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #202 on: March 31, 2014, 06:27:14 PM »

I don't believe it was, I think as far as Brian was concerned it was a H&V fragment

Regardless if Brian considered it part of H&V it was always intended to be the intro for the album as Brian himself clearly says to the other boys during the session.
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« Reply #203 on: March 31, 2014, 06:35:58 PM »

I don't believe it was, I think as far as Brian was concerned it was a H&V fragment

Regardless if Brian considered it part of H&V it was always intended to be the intro for the album as Brian himself clearly says to the other boys during the session.
Yes, I know. For me personally, *the* most "heretical" decision one could make regarding a SMiLE mix is to not begin with Prayer since that's the one thing we have evidence for. Brian himself said where it goes on tape, during the original sessions. Case closed. It is kinda cool at the end tho, to be fair. Really brings home the "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God!"
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #204 on: March 31, 2014, 06:42:47 PM »

I don't believe it was, I think as far as Brian was concerned it was a H&V fragment

Regardless if Brian considered it part of H&V it was always intended to be the intro for the album as Brian himself clearly says to the other boys during the session.

Not case closed for me. In my opinion, with deja vu feelings, and it's fun to discuss fanmixes again... police

Up until BWPS, and I don't want to get started on that, the only basis for starting SMiLE with "Our Prayer" was a single line, an utterance, a thought expressed by a stoned Brian Wilson one night at a session. Brian saying "This (the song they were working on, "Our Prayer") would make a cool opening track for an album", or something like that, never sold me. That is far from evidence. But that's just me.

They had the opportunity to start an album with "Our Prayer" - and didn't. Yeah, yeah, I know how it worked. The hit, in this case "Do It Again" got that slot. But think of the other possibilties. "Our Prayer" into 'Be With Me" or "our Prayer" into "I Can Hear Music". Or even "Our Prayer" into "Do It Again". I like it where it is on 20/20, but I digress....
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« Reply #205 on: March 31, 2014, 07:36:57 PM »

I don't believe it was, I think as far as Brian was concerned it was a H&V fragment

Regardless if Brian considered it part of H&V it was always intended to be the intro for the album as Brian himself clearly says to the other boys during the session.

Not case closed for me. In my opinion, with deja vu feelings, and it's fun to discuss fanmixes again... police

Up until BWPS, and I don't want to get started on that, the only basis for starting SMiLE with "Our Prayer" was a single line, an utterance, a thought expressed by a stoned Brian Wilson one night at a session. Brian saying "This (the song they were working on, "Our Prayer") would make a cool opening track for an album", or something like that, never sold me. That is far from evidence. But that's just me.

They had the opportunity to start an album with "Our Prayer" - and didn't. Yeah, yeah, I know how it worked. The hit, in this case "Do It Again" got that slot. But think of the other possibilties. "Our Prayer" into 'Be With Me" or "our Prayer" into "I Can Hear Music". Or even "Our Prayer" into "Do It Again". I like it where it is on 20/20, but I digress....




Well, rule one of a SMiLE Mix is there are no rules, and I admire you for thinking outside the BWPS/TSS mold if nothing else. I mean, I leave GV off most of my mixes so I'm all about experimenting with this material. But for the record, Brian sounds pretty confident about it on tape. One of the Boys suggests having Prayer be its own track and he shoots them down immediately "No we don't wanna do that. This is an intro to the album. Ok, this is intro to the album, take one." Not Prayer. Intro to the album. Pretty significant if you ask me, I don't care how much hash was smoked that night. 

The fact that it wasn't the intro on 20/20 means NOTHING. Less than nothing. SMiLE is a separate project, these were just old tracks tacked onto the end of a new, different album called 20/20. How they were sequenced on that has NOTHING to do with their place on SMiLE. 
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #206 on: March 31, 2014, 08:14:08 PM »

03. I'm In Great Shape - my own mix suspiciously similar to soniclovenoize's (sorry)

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« Reply #207 on: April 01, 2014, 05:21:54 AM »

I love "Our Prayer", one of my favorite BB/BW songs, and it's in all my SMiLE fanmixes. But, I wonder if it would've been on a 1967 album? Sometimes I can hear the album starting out simply with "Heroes And Villains".

According to Vosse it was the ending. According to Brian on the tapes it's an intro to the album. I disagree that it wouldve been left off. It wouldve been part of H&V, not its own entity as has happened retroactively, so technically the album *would* be starting simply with H&V.

Well Vosse describes something similar to Our Prayer closing the album after SU so he's not definitely claiming that Prayer was at the end. I'm inclined to think he means prayer but others have argued that he's heard 20/20 at that point (and references it in the article iirc) so surely if he was talking about prayer specifically, he would have said something about it being the same track as on the (then) new BB album 20/20.

Not sure about Our Prayer being part of H&V. Is it labelled as a H&V session - didn't know this. It always sounded off to me moving from a very earnest chant to a comedy song. Works much better going into GV to my ears. Still he does end some Heroes sections with a similar drawn out mmmmm so who knows ...
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« Reply #208 on: April 01, 2014, 05:30:30 AM »

One of the Boys suggests having Prayer be its own track and he shoots them down immediately "No we don't wanna do that. This is an intro to the album. Ok, this is intro to the album, take one." Not Prayer. Intro to the album. Pretty significant if you ask me

What I'd like to know is what the title of "the album" was at the time of that session. To me, "Prayer" is the perfect opener to an album called "Dumb Angel", but a terrible opener for an album called "SMiLE".

(In my SMiLE mixes Prayer usually precedes Good Vibrations, which I use as last track. Only one of my mixes ends differently with Surf's Up second to last and Vega-Tables last.)
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« Reply #209 on: April 01, 2014, 05:46:09 AM »

One of the Boys suggests having Prayer be its own track and he shoots them down immediately "No we don't wanna do that. This is an intro to the album. Ok, this is intro to the album, take one." Not Prayer. Intro to the album. Pretty significant if you ask me

What I'd like to know is what the title of "the album" was at the time of that session. To me, "Prayer" is the perfect opener to an album called "Dumb Angel", but a terrible opener for an album called "SMiLE".

Good point! Wow - wouldn't Dumb Angel have been a cool album title?
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« Reply #210 on: April 01, 2014, 05:59:09 AM »


What I'd like to know is what the title of "the album" was at the time of that session. To me, "Prayer" is the perfect opener to an album called "Dumb Angel", but a terrible opener for an album called "SMiLE".
[/quote]

Good point! Wow - wouldn't Dumb Angel have been a cool album title?
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I always thought that Dumb angel would be more acurate title for this album, very cool indeed and very catchy to ear!
Next time I do my smile mix I´m namin´ it "Dumb angel"! Grin
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« Reply #211 on: April 01, 2014, 06:09:23 AM »

One of the Boys suggests having Prayer be its own track and he shoots them down immediately "No we don't wanna do that. This is an intro to the album. Ok, this is intro to the album, take one." Not Prayer. Intro to the album. Pretty significant if you ask me

What I'd like to know is what the title of "the album" was at the time of that session. To me, "Prayer" is the perfect opener to an album called "Dumb Angel", but a terrible opener for an album called "SMiLE".

Good point! Wow - wouldn't Dumb Angel have been a cool album title?

Of course, but I like SMiLE as well.

The Prayer sessions on the box were from Sept and Oct '66. Personally, I think you guys are overthinking it tho. Brian wanted to do an album that showed the religiousness of humor. Music people prayed to. A teen symphony to god. H&V jumpstarts the album introing all these things.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 06:10:43 AM by Mujan » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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« Reply #212 on: April 01, 2014, 09:53:24 AM »

One of the Boys suggests having Prayer be its own track and he shoots them down immediately "No we don't wanna do that. This is an intro to the album. Ok, this is intro to the album, take one." Not Prayer. Intro to the album. Pretty significant if you ask me

What I'd like to know is what the title of "the album" was at the time of that session. To me, "Prayer" is the perfect opener to an album called "Dumb Angel", but a terrible opener for an album called "SMiLE".

Yer thinking too literally.

Also, while I can't imagine Smile opening with anything other than "Prayer", his change-my-mind-on-an-hourly-basis high-on-LSD comments shouldn't be taken as absolute proof of how anything would have been on a final album. Granted it's the best we've got, but still.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 10:03:28 AM by runnersdialzero » Logged

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« Reply #213 on: April 03, 2014, 07:02:59 PM »

Just in case anyone's dying to check out yet another Smile fan mix, I recently did one just for fun that sticks to the handwritten track list in its written order*. This was purely for my own enjoyment, and not because I believe that was really Brian's intention or anything. Anyway I did my very best to try and ensure that only 1966 session material got used on this mix. Not very much in the way of overdubbing or studio trickery either-- just butt edits for the most part.

Anyway I thought it turned out to be pretty listenable, so I'd welcome any feedback from you all.

* - I had to fudge "The Elements" a bit by using segments of other outtakes since obviously huge chunks of it were neither attempted nor completed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogmhb21ORJc
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 07:05:36 PM by Jason Penick » Logged

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« Reply #214 on: April 04, 2014, 10:04:18 AM »

Just in case anyone's dying to check out yet another Smile fan mix, I recently did one just for fun that sticks to the handwritten track list in its written order*. This was purely for my own enjoyment, and not because I believe that was really Brian's intention or anything. Anyway I did my very best to try and ensure that only 1966 session material got used on this mix. Not very much in the way of overdubbing or studio trickery either-- just butt edits for the most part.

Anyway I thought it turned out to be pretty listenable, so I'd welcome any feedback from you all.

* - I had to fudge "The Elements" a bit by using segments of other outtakes since obviously huge chunks of it were neither attempted nor completed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogmhb21ORJc

Neat thanks for this!  Intradesting Heroes and Villains...

The problem with that handwritten track order is, I feel like whomever wrote it, they were writing it off the top of their head.  So all the songs that seemed to be more formalized and structured were listed first (Surf's Up, Good Vibrations, DYLW,etc) because they were the most complete or at least a mental blueprint of the songs existed.  And then after Wonderful, they seemed to mentally struggle and began grasping for the songs that were no where near finished and were in pieces (Vege-Tables, I'm In Great Shape, etc). By the end, we even have a crossed out parenthesis ("Maybe this song but I'm not sure...  Well yeah maybe OK whetever").   
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« Reply #215 on: April 04, 2014, 11:39:44 AM »

When I got my first Smile boot I hadn't read anything about the album other than the sleevenotes of the SS/WH twofer so I took the back cover at face value, dismissing the "see label" note as a bit of old-timey frippery like "File under: popular" or "consult you hi-fi dealer".  By the time I was aware that everybody else didn't have it that way, I'd gotten used to it.  I did eventually change things up, but my fanmix still bears traces of the back cover order.  I still like DYLW at the beginning because it's a slow build and anytime I've put it anywhere it just seems to dissipate the momentum.
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« Reply #216 on: April 05, 2014, 05:31:10 PM »


The problem with that handwritten track order is, I feel like whomever wrote it, they were writing it off the top of their head.  So all the songs that seemed to be more formalized and structured were listed first (Surf's Up, Good Vibrations, DYLW,etc) because they were the most complete or at least a mental blueprint of the songs existed.  And then after Wonderful, they seemed to mentally struggle and began grasping for the songs that were no where near finished and were in pieces (Vege-Tables, I'm In Great Shape, etc). By the end, we even have a crossed out parenthesis ("Maybe this song but I'm not sure...  Well yeah maybe OK whetever").    

I definitely noticed this as well. You can hear the structure start to kind of fall apart on side two right after "Wonderful". But in a way that always kind of seems to happen anyway whenever you get to people's interpretations of "The Elements", "OMP" etc., even on BWPS.

There's some things I do like about the tracklist though. A finished "Worms" would have made a nice starter, introducing the chronological narrative. (I never understood why you would have a song about the roots of American colonialism follow a song that takes place in the old West ca. mid 1800s.) The rest of side 'A' flows really well for me. I particularly like sandwiching "Surf's Up" between "Heroes" and "GV". Most people tend to stick it either in the middle or the end of their mixes, but I like it close to the front like this. It's a strong song so why not showcase it?

In terms of a side closer and a side opener, "Cabin Essence" and "Wonderful" will do nicely. Finally, the "Western Theme" seems to me a natural album closer, and at least it make some sense as to why Brian chose to attach it to the seemingly unrelated "OMP".

Thanks for listening!
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 05:35:45 PM by Jason Penick » Logged

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« Reply #217 on: April 05, 2014, 05:52:47 PM »

A finished "Worms" would have made a nice starter, introducing the chronological narrative. (I never understood why you would have a song about the roots of American colonialism follow a song that takes place in the old West ca. mid 1800s.)

I agree. "Heroes And Villians" into "Do You Like Worms" never sounded quite right, especially lyrically but also musically. It's too much of the "Heroes And Villains" main riff repeated over and over.

That is why I prefer "You're Welcome" into "Do You Like Worms" to start my SMiLE fanmix. However, because of that, I struggle to find a good spot for "Heroes And Villains". The lyrics are past tense; it's almost like a review/summary type song. Where do most of you place "Heroes And Villains" in your mixes?
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« Reply #218 on: April 05, 2014, 06:17:23 PM »


That is why I prefer "You're Welcome" into "Do You Like Worms" to start my SMiLE fanmix. However, because of that, I struggle to find a good spot for "Heroes And Villains". The lyrics are past tense; it's almost like a review/summary type song. Where do most of you place "Heroes And Villains" in your mixes?

Well just from a story perspective, I could see placing it after "Worms" and before "Cabinessence" and "Surf's Up". So basically first colonization, then conquest, then the railroads and labor exploitation, and then the so-called refinement of the opera glass and the (orchestra) pit and the pendulum.

Musically, somewhere towards the beginning. I could never really picture it as a second side piece.
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« Reply #219 on: April 05, 2014, 07:19:24 PM »

I don't believe it was, I think as far as Brian was concerned it was a H&V fragment

Regardless if Brian considered it part of H&V it was always intended to be the intro for the album as Brian himself clearly says to the other boys during the session.
I think that the most that can be assumed from that quote that was that, on the day of that recording at least, BW intended for it to be the album intro. Words like "always" and "clearly" don't apply to the process at work in the production of Smile. That being said, I think it makes a beautiful album opener, and it fits with the idea of America being settled by Europeans for the purpose of religious freedom.
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« Reply #220 on: April 05, 2014, 08:01:04 PM »

I would like to say I really dislike the phrase "Bring it on." That is all.
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« Reply #221 on: April 06, 2014, 05:30:34 AM »

I don't believe it was, I think as far as Brian was concerned it was a H&V fragment

Regardless if Brian considered it part of H&V it was always intended to be the intro for the album as Brian himself clearly says to the other boys during the session.
I think that the most that can be assumed from that quote that was that, on the day of that recording at least, BW intended for it to be the album intro. Words like "always" and "clearly" don't apply to the process at work in the production of Smile. That being said, I think it makes a beautiful album opener, and it fits with the idea of America being settled by Europeans for the purpose of religious freedom.

krabklaw, your SMiLE knowledge and mixing expertise blows me away so don't take personal exception to this...

I really like your theory about "America being settled by Europeans for the purpose of religious freedom". I don't know if that was Brian's intention with the song, BUT I LIKE IT! However, again, that was also the end result, SETTLED (past tense) AFTER the colonization. And I think "Our Prayer" works as an "OK, now we can relax and contemplate and thank God what what we/he has done...", placing it more at the end than the beginning. I don't know, just a thought.... police
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« Reply #222 on: April 06, 2014, 08:14:26 AM »

I don't believe it was, I think as far as Brian was concerned it was a H&V fragment

Regardless if Brian considered it part of H&V it was always intended to be the intro for the album as Brian himself clearly says to the other boys during the session.
I think that the most that can be assumed from that quote that was that, on the day of that recording at least, BW intended for it to be the album intro. Words like "always" and "clearly" don't apply to the process at work in the production of Smile. That being said, I think it makes a beautiful album opener, and it fits with the idea of America being settled by Europeans for the purpose of religious freedom.

krabklaw, your SMiLE knowledge and mixing expertise blows me away so don't take personal exception to this...

I really like your theory about "America being settled by Europeans for the purpose of religious freedom". I don't know if that was Brian's intention with the song, BUT I LIKE IT! However, again, that was also the end result, SETTLED (past tense) AFTER the colonization. And I think "Our Prayer" works as an "OK, now we can relax and contemplate and thank God what what we/he has done...", placing it more at the end than the beginning. I don't know, just a thought.... police

Well, I do think Prayer works as an album closer or opener. Depending on your mindset, I guess it could serve as either an invocation or a benediction and on BWPS they use it as both. I end my preferred track sequencing with Old Master Painter/You Were My Sunshine/Barnshine. It ends the album on an "up" note, as opposed to the somber Prayer. The Capitol memo has theOMP/YWMS listed as the album closer and for me that's where it works the best. Jason has discovered something by making his mix that I've felt for a good long while now. By and large, the Capitol memo sequencing works quite well. I'll never understand why it is so quickly disregarded by so many fans on this board, BWPS notwithstanding.
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« Reply #223 on: April 06, 2014, 07:26:11 PM »

I agree. "Heroes And Villians" into "Do You Like Worms" never sounded quite right, especially lyrically but also musically. It's too much of the "Heroes And Villains" main riff repeated over and over.
Not unless you use the Cantina version! 

I'll never understand why it is so quickly disregarded by so many fans on this board, BWPS notwithstanding.
In my opinion a) the length of the two sides of the LP become uneven (21 min vs 15 min) and b) i feel that as a whole the songs do not flow very well in that order. 
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Summertime Blooz
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« Reply #224 on: April 06, 2014, 09:02:46 PM »


The problem with that handwritten track order is, I feel like whomever wrote it, they were writing it off the top of their head.  So all the songs that seemed to be more formalized and structured were listed first (Surf's Up, Good Vibrations, DYLW,etc) because they were the most complete or at least a mental blueprint of the songs existed.  And then after Wonderful, they seemed to mentally struggle and began grasping for the songs that were no where near finished and were in pieces (Vege-Tables, I'm In Great Shape, etc). By the end, we even have a crossed out parenthesis ("Maybe this song but I'm not sure...  Well yeah maybe OK whetever").    

I definitely noticed this as well. You can hear the structure start to kind of fall apart on side two right after "Wonderful". But in a way that always kind of seems to happen anyway whenever you get to people's interpretations of "The Elements", "OMP" etc., even on BWPS.

There's some things I do like about the tracklist though. A finished "Worms" would have made a nice starter, introducing the chronological narrative. (I never understood why you would have a song about the roots of American colonialism follow a song that takes place in the old West ca. mid 1800s.) The rest of side 'A' flows really well for me. I particularly like sandwiching "Surf's Up" between "Heroes" and "GV". Most people tend to stick it either in the middle or the end of their mixes, but I like it close to the front like this. It's a strong song so why not showcase it?

In terms of a side closer and a side opener, "Cabin Essence" and "Wonderful" will do nicely. Finally, the "Western Theme" seems to me a natural album closer, and at least it make some sense as to why Brian chose to attach it to the seemingly unrelated "OMP".

Thanks for listening!

Just imagine: An album side that includes Heroes and Villains, then Surf's Up, then Good Vibrations, then (maybe) Cabinessence. Greatest album side ever? Just could be. Then you have the more far-out experimental stuff on side 2.
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