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Author Topic: TSS - All things H&V  (Read 13188 times)
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« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2011, 06:27:27 PM »

Wait so - if the original structure of "Heroes and Villains" (Humble Harv vintage) was to feature "barnyard" as the fade, has anyone examined the possiblity that the 'great shape' verse may have been used recurrently as a chorus?

A few things: I don't think the demo suggests that Heroes and Villains was to feature Barnyard as the fade.

I think the "Barnyard" as fade theory comes from the fact that the backing track for "Barnyard" fades out.  But is there a reason to believe the track was actually recorded while Brian still saw it as a part of "Heroes"?

Same goes for "Great Shape."  I don't see that as a chorus at all.  It makes sense as part of "Heroes," though, or even where it is on BWPS--"I Wanna Be Around"/"Friday Night" is a two-part configuration with a cover of an old love song just like "Old Master Painter"/"Sunshine," and "OMP" had the "Heroes" bit tacked on just like "Great Shape" can be attached to "I Wanna Be Around."
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« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2011, 06:39:09 PM »


Same goes for "Great Shape."  I don't see that as a chorus at all. 

Yeah, and remember that in the "Part 1" mix of H&V there isn't a chorus at all. I don't think that Brian had even thought of a chorus for the song until around when he lifted the Bicycle Rider theme from Worms.

The way I've been thinking about it lately, I'm pretty sure that the so-called "Barnyard Suite', that being Great Shape, Barnyard, Old Master Painter, Sunshine, and Barnshine, may have been the original intent for H&V Part 2. In the demo, Brian hums the 'Heroes and Villains theme' (ba-babababa-ba-bababa-be-baaaaaaaa) before starting to play Great Shape, and now on the box that same theme ends Heroes and Villains proper. I mean, there's not any historical basis for this, really, except for the fact that none of the parts of the suite are long enough (in my opinion) to be songs in their own right, and while it hardly follows any sort of traditional verse-chorus song structure, it has a good enough flow for the B-side of a single. I could also see the whole suite being put under the catchall 'I'm in Great Shape' on the handwritten 12-song list, since we're all but sure that Brian didn't write the list they could have just called it by name given to the first section.

I could be wrong, of course. But it's neat to think about.
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« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2011, 01:21:59 AM »

Interesting to see that nobody has mentioned (at least not here) that Carl sings a lot of the lead on Heroes and Villains: Early Version Outtake Sessions on Disc 4 of the Boxset.

Ummm...what?

All I hear is Brian and Mike (more of him than on any released version), but no Carl as far as I can tell.

Same here. Carl??

Ah, my bad, it's Mike of course. Pretty sweet vocals I must say though, considering I could think for a split second it was Carl Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2011, 06:31:29 PM »

Ages ago, when I found some of the alternate H&V mixes that had the trade-off vocals in the verse, I swore one of them sounded like Dennis was in there on a line or two, and another being Carl. I haven't listened since, but maybe one of them indeed has people other than Brian and Mike? I can't even remember where I heard them, I'll have to look again.
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« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2011, 10:57:47 PM »

I've gotta say, the early version outakes sessions (disc 4 track 24), possibly sounds more well put together than any other version. (except one awful fade edit in the middle). Some edits I've never heard before make perfect sense and have a fantastic feel to it. I instantly loved it, and it has this certain drive to the entire track that none of the others have.

I came on to this thread to post exactly the same thing.  That might just be the best H&V running order that I've ever heard.  Sound quality for the mix isn't the greatest (is some of it acetate-sourced?), but, man, I love this version.  I wonder why it's buried at the end of Disc 4 instead of with the rest of H&V on Disc 2.  Huh

The structure of CD4 version from Jan/Feb 67 is as follows

1. Normal first verse although the lead vocal sounds quite laid back ( more than normal

2. Whistle/Dum Dum section

3. My Children were raised accapella with Often wise/piano section

4. Wordless vocal verse

5. In the Cantina

6. How I love my girl (Gee)

7. Dit Dit accapella H&V with handclaps and the one/two note bass line

8. Heroes & Villains accapella - with the clip clop thing

9 False Barnyard with hum dum vocals

I think thats it
The one thing I really like about this edit is that Gee follows In the Cantina. To me that always seemed like it obviously should go there. Then followed by "You're Under Arrest" when the piano stops suddenly.
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« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2011, 04:38:51 AM »

Is the "At three score and five I'm very much alive" verse available on the box anyplace other than CD #4 track 24?
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« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2011, 12:22:26 PM »


Same goes for "Great Shape."  I don't see that as a chorus at all. 


The way I've been thinking about it lately, I'm pretty sure that the so-called "Barnyard Suite', that being Great Shape, Barnyard, Old Master Painter, Sunshine, and Barnshine, may have been the original intent for H&V Part 2. In the demo, Brian hums the 'Heroes and Villains theme' (ba-babababa-ba-bababa-be-baaaaaaaa) before starting to play Great Shape, and now on the box that same theme ends Heroes and Villains proper.

That's got me thinking- maybe I'm In Great Shape was maybe meant to be a sequel or continuation to H & V. Possibly even including the "my children were raised...at three score and five" stuff to show that a lot of time has passed. He now has his own farm out in the "open country" and because of this idyllic country life, although he's old now, he's still in "great shape". Y'know probably a lot of our country's frontiersmen who pushed this country's European settlers westward probably did so to escape the law.
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« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2012, 08:14:40 PM »

If you're referring to "Heroes & Villains (Alternate Take)" which appeared on the SMILEY SMILE / WILD HONEY two-fer, you'll find it on the A-side of the 45 single included in the TSS box set and as Track 2 on CD 2 of the TSS 2-CD set. It's now called "Heroes & Villains Part 1".

Check my old posts.  My guess is (and has been since about 1995) it was ALWAYS "Heroes And Villains Part 1".  Or at least the completed "Heroes And Villains Part 1" SONG (as opposed a reference title for a specific "Heroes And Villains" SECTION) was always that particular edit (minus the False Barnyard).  I think his plan for "Part 2" was all about the way the single would have been pressed:  Side one was Part 1 (twofer edit up through the explosion).  Then you flipped it over and side2 was "Part 2" (the chorus through the end of "our" single version).

I think he then scrapped that idea, added the verse to the top of that second half, and made THAT the single; one that would fit on one side of a single.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 10:06:32 PM by Phoenix » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2012, 03:00:35 AM »

If you're referring to "Heroes & Villains (Alternate Take)" which appeared on the SMILEY SMILE / WILD HONEY two-fer, you'll find it on the A-side of the 45 single included in the TSS box set and as Track 2 on CD 2 of the TSS 2-CD set. It's now called "Heroes & Villains Part 1".

Check my old posts.  My guess is (and has been since about 1995) it was ALWAYS "Heroes And Villains Part 1".  Or at least the completed "Heroes And Villains Part 1" SONG (as opposed a reference title for a specific "Heroes And Villains" SECTION) was always that particular edit (minus the False Barnyard).  I think his plan for "Part 2" was all about the way the single would have been pressed:  Side one was Part 1 (twofer edit up through the explosion).  Then you flipped it over and side2 was "Part 2" (the chorus through the end of "our" single version).

I think he then scrapped that idea, added the verse to the top of that second half, and made THAT the single; one that would fit on one side of a single.



That is an interesting guess. I'm not sure I've got it correctly: You think that the actual 1967 single without the first two verses was planned as flip side of the single?
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« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2012, 03:20:32 AM »

If you're referring to "Heroes & Villains (Alternate Take)" which appeared on the SMILEY SMILE / WILD HONEY two-fer, you'll find it on the A-side of the 45 single included in the TSS box set and as Track 2 on CD 2 of the TSS 2-CD set. It's now called "Heroes & Villains Part 1".

Check my old posts.  My guess is (and has been since about 1995) it was ALWAYS "Heroes And Villains Part 1".  Or at least the completed "Heroes And Villains Part 1" SONG (as opposed a reference title for a specific "Heroes And Villains" SECTION) was always that particular edit (minus the False Barnyard).  I think his plan for "Part 2" was all about the way the single would have been pressed:  Side one was Part 1 (twofer edit up through the explosion).  Then you flipped it over and side2 was "Part 2" (the chorus through the end of "our" single version).

I think he then scrapped that idea, added the verse to the top of that second half, and made THAT the single; one that would fit on one side of a single.




I thought False Barnyard was on that mix in the first place ie. not a Linett addition for the twofers/boxset?
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« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2012, 06:18:34 AM »

If you're referring to "Heroes & Villains (Alternate Take)" which appeared on the SMILEY SMILE / WILD HONEY two-fer, you'll find it on the A-side of the 45 single included in the TSS box set and as Track 2 on CD 2 of the TSS 2-CD set. It's now called "Heroes & Villains Part 1".

Check my old posts.  My guess is (and has been since about 1995) it was ALWAYS "Heroes And Villains Part 1".  Or at least the completed "Heroes And Villains Part 1" SONG (as opposed a reference title for a specific "Heroes And Villains" SECTION) was always that particular edit (minus the False Barnyard).  I think his plan for "Part 2" was all about the way the single would have been pressed:  Side one was Part 1 (twofer edit up through the explosion).  Then you flipped it over and side2 was "Part 2" (the chorus through the end of "our" single version).

I think he then scrapped that idea, added the verse to the top of that second half, and made THAT the single; one that would fit on one side of a single.



That is an interesting guess. I'm not sure I've got it correctly: You think that the actual 1967 single without the first two verses was planned as flip side of the single?


More accurately, I think it was planned as the rest of the song and because of the song's length, it would have wound up as the b-side when the song was split for the single.  At least that arrangement, or something very close to it.  I'm not sure if the actual recordings used for the final single were recorded by that point.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 07:53:32 AM by Phoenix » Logged
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« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2012, 06:30:34 AM »

If you're referring to "Heroes & Villains (Alternate Take)" which appeared on the SMILEY SMILE / WILD HONEY two-fer, you'll find it on the A-side of the 45 single included in the TSS box set and as Track 2 on CD 2 of the TSS 2-CD set. It's now called "Heroes & Villains Part 1".

Check my old posts.  My guess is (and has been since about 1995) it was ALWAYS "Heroes And Villains Part 1".  Or at least the completed "Heroes And Villains Part 1" SONG (as opposed a reference title for a specific "Heroes And Villains" SECTION) was always that particular edit (minus the False Barnyard).  I think his plan for "Part 2" was all about the way the single would have been pressed:  Side one was Part 1 (twofer edit up through the explosion).  Then you flipped it over and side2 was "Part 2" (the chorus through the end of "our" single version).

I think he then scrapped that idea, added the verse to the top of that second half, and made THAT the single; one that would fit on one side of a single.




I thought False Barnyard was on that mix in the first place ie. not a Linett addition for the twofers/boxset?


Correct.  My guess was always that it was meant exclusively for the single, possibly to give "closure" to the a-side.  On the album, I think it would have still been at the end of TOMP.  I guess it could have been in both places on the albums tho (maybe one with and one without the sunshine vocals).  It's not like the album isn't crammed with other reoccurring musical themes.
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« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2012, 05:14:02 PM »

I get ya - I ran into the problem you mentioned, after making a 'historical' sequence lauded by many on this board, only to find when I listened to it that False Barnyard happens twice in ten minutes. The only problem is, there is no viable alternative to that mix other than the Smiley version, and there's nothing else  he sequenced or test mixed to fill out that last minute.
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« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2012, 12:55:37 AM »

I get ya - I ran into the problem you mentioned, after making a 'historical' sequence lauded by many on this board, only to find when I listened to it that False Barnyard happens twice in ten minutes. The only problem is, there is no viable alternative to that mix other than the Smiley version, and there's nothing else  he sequenced or test mixed to fill out that last minute.

I think on a released Smile LP False Barnyard just would be in one track. So, late 1966 it would be in TOMP, and HAV would have been a different mix, but at the time of the HAV Cantina mix, TOMP would not have False Barnyard or would'nt be on the album at all. The only thing I could imagine is that False Barnyard would close both sides of the LP, so HAV at the end of Side A and TOMP at the end of Side B or vice versa.
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« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2012, 06:33:49 AM »

Wait so - if the original structure of "Heroes and Villains" (Humble Harv vintage) was to feature "barnyard" as the fade, has anyone examined the possiblity that the 'great shape' verse may have been used recurrently as a chorus?

A few things: I don't think the demo suggests that Heroes and Villains was to feature Barnyard as the fade.

I think the "Barnyard" as fade theory comes from the fact that the backing track for "Barnyard" fades out.  But is there a reason to believe the track was actually recorded while Brian still saw it as a part of "Heroes"?

Same goes for "Great Shape."  I don't see that as a chorus at all.  It makes sense as part of "Heroes," though, or even where it is on BWPS--"I Wanna Be Around"/"Friday Night" is a two-part configuration with a cover of an old love song just like "Old Master Painter"/"Sunshine," and "OMP" had the "Heroes" bit tacked on just like "Great Shape" can be attached to "I Wanna Be Around."

Considering the fact that Brian recorded the master take to Barnyard BEFORE the Humble Harv demo (consult the TSS sessionography), I'd say he considered it a part of H&V right up until perhaps January and the "Part 1 Tag".
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« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2012, 05:48:20 PM »

here's an attempted reconstruction of a March '67 H&V, I'd love to get some feedback on the sequencing and in particular the added vocals to "Prelude to Fade"

http://www.mediafire.com/?c4ofz63tf30gttz
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« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2012, 03:04:51 PM »

About false barnyard, read Dom's second smile book, he says he couldn't remember the entire OMP so maybe there was more to extend the track?
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« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2012, 03:15:43 AM »

here's an attempted reconstruction of a March '67 H&V, I'd love to get some feedback on the sequencing and in particular the added vocals to "Prelude to Fade"

http://www.mediafire.com/?c4ofz63tf30gttz

Thanks for posting! It is a really nice mix of a lot of HAV Part 1 and Part 2 sections. I don't think it is very historically accurate, but it sounds good as a fan mix sequence! The vocal over the prelude to fade do fit quite well, maybe there were vocals intended for that section? I remember a bit of studio chat about 'slowing down for vocal reasons', if I remeber correctly. Can someone check that for me?
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« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2012, 09:54:25 AM »

I miss the "wwwwooooooowwww" sound that comes around 2:10 or so in the single verison.



On BWPS it was played by a theremin I believe. I'd also like to know where it's gone. I miss it......  Sad

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« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2012, 10:05:21 AM »

Part of the problem with H&V from a single/commercial standpoint was that it really didn't seem to have a big hooky chorus a la Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, The Little Girl I Once Knew, Sloop John B. and Good Vibrations. Then again, neither did Wouldn't it Be Nice and God Only Knows.



Bruce mentioned that he heard H&V in a club in London (?) and the people really grooved to it until the slow part began (the chorus I guess). Carl's version - the live versions - on the other hand sounds totally like a hit. The contrast between verse and chorus seems all but gone yet both still are individual parts. Something like that on the single would have prbably done better imo
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« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2012, 10:55:30 PM »

here's an attempted reconstruction of a March '67 H&V, I'd love to get some feedback on the sequencing and in particular the added vocals to "Prelude to Fade"

http://www.mediafire.com/?c4ofz63tf30gttz

I tried to do a 6+ minute mix of H&V too, but I found none of my attempts working as a whole, and I don't think yours does, though there are fine moments. The first chorus in your version works surprisingly well to me, but personally I found the other chorusses jarring.

The lyrics on the Prelude work only from "I'm fit with the stuff" on, but then they work great! Before that the lines are too far apart. Maybe it would work better if you placed the "I've been in this town" a bit later, so that the "been" coincides with the beat at exactly 4:49?
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« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2012, 10:50:39 AM »

Part of the problem with H&V from a single/commercial standpoint was that it really didn't seem to have a big hooky chorus a la Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, The Little Girl I Once Knew, Sloop John B. and Good Vibrations. Then again, neither did Wouldn't it Be Nice and God Only Knows.



Bruce mentioned that he heard H&V in a club in London (?) and the people really grooved to it until the slow part began (the chorus I guess). Carl's version - the live versions - on the other hand sounds totally like a hit. The contrast between verse and chorus seems all but gone yet both still are individual parts. Something like that on the single would have prbably done better imo

Perhaps. But keep in mind, the version that Bruce is referring to is the Smiley Smile version in which Brian basically reworked part of Do You Like Worms and made that the chorus of Heroes and Villains. The live versions that you refer to are just sparkier versions of the Smiley Smile Heroes with the inclusion of Worms. H&V during the Smile sessions never really seemed to have a chorus as far as I can tell and I can't imagine that Brian would have included Do You Like Worms in Heroes if they were both appearing on the same album as separate tracks as well.
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« Reply #72 on: January 25, 2012, 11:30:25 PM »

To me, the stereo single version released on Hawthorne, CA sounds like it's of better quality than the stereo version on TSS. Is there a reason for that? Are they both sourced from the same recordings? (I feel like that's a stupid question, but Wikipedia has me confused.)
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« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2012, 11:23:47 AM »

See, I think the 2001 mix sounds a lot worse - I think they got around the fact that multis were missing for the organ overdubs in the chorus and the second verse in the wrong fashion, some of it sounds like it's going through a phaser. Whereas to do TSS, you don't need the organ overdub as you aren't recreating the single*, and they've gone about incorporating the 2nd verse vox better. And mastering technology has improved a lot.

But yeah, the masters they use are the same, just freshly mixed.

*Although that overdub appears to have surfaced!
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« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2012, 11:42:45 AM »

As a whole, Hawthorne is a much brighter album than TSS. I thought the 2001 mix was a nice change from the original mono, but now I prefer the TSS mix. To these ears, it sounds less harsh, meeting nicely in the middle between the previous two mixes.

(You may have to give it time to adjust, too -- I thought the TSS mix sounded a bit flat at first, but my ears adjusted quickly after that.)

I think they got around the fact that multis were missing for the organ overdubs in the chorus and the second verse in the wrong fashion, some of it sounds like it's going through a phaser.

Yeah, there's definitely some Duophonic-ness going on there. And I always thought the delay added to the harpsichord was sort of...interesting?
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