How do YOU think Smile would have went?

[Magic Transistor Radio]

One time I had a dream that I was hanging out with Brian and we were watching TV and Mike & Bruce were on TV debuting a version of "Heroes and Villains" that Mike had re-written to be a song about a drag race and Brian got really sad and then he wasn't fun to hang out with anymore.

I think that really happened! But its not documented anywhere.

[JohnMill]

One time I had a dream that I was hanging out with Brian and we were watching TV and Mike & Bruce were on TV debuting a version of "Heroes and Villains" that Mike had re-written to be a song about a drag race and Brian got really sad and then he wasn't fun to hang out with anymore.

I think that really happened! But its not documented anywhere.

Been crusin around so long that we got dizzy (hit the street, hit the street)
Flying down the turnpike, don't forget to hang that last right, got the radio on
and we're just chillin.

Late one night, two cars hit a light, the guy beside us he was looking mean
Put the pedal to the metal and we split that scene, to the hamburger stand
and we're just chillin'

Oh yeah crusin!  *come on scratch it Carl scratch it*

At the shake shack waffle fries keep our spirits high
dunking ketchup, hey pass the mustard
we don't mind, take our time, till the pokey throws us out
YOU'RE UNDER ARREST

I've been crusin round so long that I got dizzy
Sharing waffle fries, no it ain't no crime
to resign to a life of surfing and crusin.

*Come on now scratch it carl scratch it!*

[Micha]

We tend to see the Harpsichord version of Wonderful as 'canon', but he re-recorded it twice!

When the track listings for TSS were made public, I realised that the also kind of canonical Cantina version of H&V is contemporary with the Rock Me Henry version of Wonderful. A February 1967 SMiLE album would probably not include the harpsichord version!

Everyone puts "Surf's Up" at the end but I bet if it wasn't the last track on an actually-released album no one would see it as a closer.

I don't know whether you're right, but I never felt Surf's Up to be a closer. The minor chord heavy tag sounds just too sad for an album called "SMiLE". It's a song that could be near the end for its magnifiscence, but not the end.

Wasn't it said somewhere or other that "Surf's Up" was either planned or talked about as a possible final track? Pre-71, I mean. Nothing else really works as a closer imo. "Good Vibrations" worked well in a concert setting and even on BWPS to an extent, but it definitely doesn't feel like a "proper" ending.

I disagree! I think Good Vibrations "definitely" works great as a closer! My first two fan mixes (pre-BWPS) ended with it. It's a good feeling that the album leaves you with.

I've been fiddling with a version that closes out with a

- Child is Father of the Man
- Surf's Up
- Friday Night/Workshop
- Vegetables

Seems weird to end something called SMiLE with something as cosmic at Surf's Up. Vegetables definitely leaves you with a SMiLE and closes the whole album with "I know that you'll feel better when you send us in your letter and tell us the name of your, your favorite vegetable", which seems appropriate.

My third fan mix did end with V-T! Second to last Surf's Up with the line "a childrens' song..." followed with the childlike fun song that V-T is. My mix ended with the "row, row" tag being chanted for about one whole minute.

[Micha]

I disagree - what you refer to as "Heroes And Villains IX" is clearly a reworking of the previous track, and should thus be correctly identified as "Heroes And Villains VIII(b)".

And the track listing should be written in Linear A anyway.

[LostArt]

And as others have said, I believe he planned on closing it with "Surf's Up," although for the life of me I can't remember what contemporary source (if any) that idea came from.  As for the rest, I doubt it was given much thought - he was having enough of an issue just trying to sequence sections within the songs themselves, let alone the album as a whole.

Not quite contemporary, but Vosse says this in the Fusion piece:

"As to Smile itself-well, you know about "Surf's Up".  It was going to kind of close the album, and then after it was over they were going to a sort of choral a-men sort of thing."

I'm not sayin' you can take anything Vosse says in the article to the bank (Andrew ), but this is what he said.

[The Shift]

"… after it was over they were going to a sort of choral a-men sort of thing."

There've been a couple of comments that a Child-style SU tag was attempted in 66/67. Could this be what Vosse's referring to, and is it likely to be on the box?

This next week is gonna be the longest.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

I've heard a more "CIFOTM- Styled" Coda, I think someone confirmed it was used?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

"… after it was over they were going to a sort of choral a-men sort of thing."

There've been a couple of comments that a Child-style SU tag was attempted in 66/67.[ Could this be what Vosse's referring to, and is it likely to be on the box?

I'm pretty sure there was no Child-style SU tag in 66/67. I think that Vosse could only be referring to Our Prayer, believing it to come last.

[runnersdialzero]

I'm pretty sure there was no Child-style SU tag in 66/67.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. But maybe not.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm pretty sure there was no Child-style SU tag in 66/67.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. But maybe not.

Well, until there is any evidence at all suggesting that such a thing existed, I think we can not only feel comfortable saying "Maybe not" but feel even more comfortable saying, "It never existed."

[runnersdialzero]

I'm pretty sure there was no Child-style SU tag in 66/67.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. But maybe not.

Well, until there is any evidence at all suggesting that such a thing existed, I think we can not only feel comfortable saying "Maybe not" but feel even more comfortable saying, "It never existed."

Don't y'think it's interesting that Brian just fuckin' barged in on them recording a song he wanted no part of saying, "Yeah, if you guys are gonna do this shit, you may as well do it right"?

It's hard to say imo

[The_Holy_Bee]

Side One
(unlisted) Our Prayer
1. Do You Like Worms
2. Heroes and Villains (Alt version up until "False barnyard", replace fade with another section)
3. Wonderful
4. Child is Father of the Man (according to BW 3.03 mono mix)
5. The Old Master Painter (with barnshine fade, ie. TSS)
6. I'm in Great Shape (WBA/FN-IIGS-Barnyard-H&V concluding section)
7. Cabin Essence

Side Two
1. Good Vibrations
2. Mrs O'Leary's Cow-Water Chant/Holidays (The Elements)
5. Wind Chimes
4. Vega-Tables
5. Surf's Up

Despite the imbalance in numbers of track per side, both are roughly equivalent and come in at under 20 minutes in my edits. Nothing massively new here apart from some of the individual track constructions, and it does work as both a twelve-song album and a cohesive work. (Admittedly due to some historically dodgy editing decisions - the "CIFOTM" piano bit actual runs into the first notes of Vega-Tables, and after years of being in the "four short instrumental pieces" camp, I've abruptly switched into the alternate view for reasons we don't need to go in here.)

It just occurs to me, after fourteen years rejecting the Prokopy/Priore model, I've ended up pretty much returning to it.

[Crow]

Side 1                                        Side 2
Prayer                                       Good Vibrations
Heroes and Villains                   Vega-Tables
Do you like worms?                   Wind Chimes
Wonderful                                 Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
Child is father of the man         Dada
OMP                                         Surf's Up
Cabinessence

[Crow]

I am a big believer that Good Vibrations would have started side 2 and that Surf's up would have ended the record. I also think that the album would have been tighter without Shape and I wanna be around/Workshop. I do love Barnyard so that could have fit between heroes and worms

[drbeachboy]

Side 1                                        Side 2
Prayer                                       Good Vibrations
Heroes and Villains                   Vega-Tables
Do you like worms?                   Wind Chimes
Wonderful                                 Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
Child is father of the man         Dada
OMP                                         Surf's Up
Cabinescsence

Pretty, pretty good.

[SMiLE Brian]

Side 1                                        Side 2
Prayer                                       Good Vibrations
Heroes and Villains                   Vega-Tables
Do you like worms?                   Wind Chimes
Wonderful                                 Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
Child is father of the man         Dada
OMP                                         Surf's Up
Cabinescsence

Pretty, pretty good.

Take that Sgt. Pepper!

[bruno232]

side one:

1. (our prayer) Heroes and Villains
2. Do you like worms
3. I'm in great shape (barnyard)
4. The Old Master Painter (you are my sunshine)
5. Cabin Essence

side two:

6. Good Vibrations
7. Wonderful
8. Child is Father of the Man
9. Vega-Tables

10. (holidays-)Wind Chimes

11. The Elements:
- EARTH: Look
- WIND: Holidays reprise/Wind chimes reprise
- FIRE: Mrs. O Leary's Cow-I wanna be around-Friday night
- WATER: Love to Say Dada

12. Surf's Up

(...) = unlisted

[GuyOnTheBeach]

Outside of knowledge of how sequencing of mid-60's albums usually went, I'm no where near creative enough to come up with how I think a whole album like SMiLE would go.

HOWEVER, I was listening to the sessions for the "healthy, wealthy and often wise" section of Heroes and Villains and I spent some time wondering what the point of this and the "healthy, wealthy and wise" section was. I decided that I think that if there was to be a "Heroes and Villains" pt 1 and 2 that instead of being different songs, or 2 being an extension of 1 or whatever, the songs would act more as parallels of each other, with pt 1 being more positive and pt 2 negative (the character getting arrested at the end of the Cantina section, the children being often, but not always wise, the "Bag of Tricks" intro), I might try to create an edit of each to try and demonstrate my point to anyone interested at some point.

[Micha]

side one:

1. (our prayer) Heroes and Villains
2. Do you like worms
3. I'm in great shape (barnyard)
4. The Old Master Painter (you are my sunshine)
5. Cabin Essence

side two:

6. Good Vibrations
7. Wonderful
8. Child is Father of the Man
9. Vega-Tables

10. (holidays-)Wind Chimes

11. The Elements:
- EARTH: Look
- WIND: Holidays reprise/Wind chimes reprise
- FIRE: Mrs. O Leary's Cow-I wanna be around-Friday night
- WATER: Love to Say Dada

12. Surf's Up

(...) = unlisted

Your side two is about 2 and a half times the length than your side one.

And it will always be MHO that Surf's Up is a terrible closer for an album called "SMiLE". There must be something more uplifting at the end, like Good Vibrations on BWPS.

[OneEar/OneEye]

EDIT: Actually have come to feel the listing as was/is on the original album slick (tentative, though it may have been) is absolutely perfect.  I'm quite certain I may be the only person to hold this opinion, but that's okay. 

(Prayer)
Do You Like Worms
Wind Chimes
Heroes And Villains
Surf's Up
Good Vibrations
Cabin Essence

Wonderful
I'm In Great Shape
Child Is Father of The Man
The Elements
Vega-Tables
The Old Master Painter

[Cam Mott]

I'm wondering if Prayer would have made it. I wonder if the later intros to H&V weren't the new intro to the album.

[soniclovenoize]

And it will always be MHO that Surf's Up is a terrible closer for an album called "SMiLE". There must be something more uplifting at the end, like Good Vibrations on BWPS.

That's like saying A Day In The Life is too much of a downer to close Sgt. Pepper.

[bruno232]

2

[Reverend Rock]

And it will always be MHO that Surf's Up is a terrible closer for an album called "SMiLE". There must be something more uplifting at the end, like Good Vibrations on BWPS.

That's like saying A Day In The Life is too much of a downer to close Sgt. Pepper.

And...if it's true that "The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine (with "false Barnyard" fade) was once considered "the big finale"--well, let's talk about downers...

[Reverend Rock]

Love this thread!  Lots of laughs, and some very intriguing theories!

I've been collecting information and trying to solve this dilemma for years.  Just recently, I finally tried out my own solution in a fan mix.  I'm pleased to report that I've time-checked it, and "side one" clocks in at about 19:28, while side two does at about 18:40--only about a minute longer than Pet Sounds, so I think Capitol could've swung for it.

Yes, I put bands of silence between the tracks.  I have read that recent interviews with both Brian and Van Dyke indicate that was the original plan back in '66.  Before Sgt. Pepper, there was really no precedent for doing lots of segues.  My theory is that several of the songs would have been segued as "sections", but that the tracks thus created would have been separated by the conventional few seconds of silence common to pop music albums of the time.

"Side One"
1. Intro (Our Prayer)
2. Heroes And Villains ("Heroes and Villains Intro" that is now used as intro to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" followed by alternate single version clipped at the tape delay overload, followed by "I'm In Great Shape" and "Barnyard" as sections, with "Barnyard" used to create a fade ending)
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Cabin Essence
5. Wonderful (utilizing "He Gives Speeches" pitch-corrected to be in same key as an opening "section")
6. Good Vibrations

"Side Two"
7. Vega-Tables/Child Is Father Of The Man (connected by "bop, bop" section used in both recordings, something I've always wanted to try stitching together)
8. Wind Chimes
9. The Elements (my own hypothetical creation, using sliding brass sounds from "George Fell Into His French Horn" session as "Air", the Water Chant as "Water", Bag Of Tricks as "Earth" and of course, good ol' Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as "Fire")
10. Surf's Up
11. The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine (using "False Barnyard" for the "big finale" like Brian talked about doing)

For what it's worth, it makes an enjoyable listen.